Why do people slate Rambo? He owns. You should have seen him in that movie, Fatal1ty has nothing on him.
But yes the arguments regarding true balance vs public balance have raged for a while now, personally I feel mp_tournamentmode should include balance changes when set to "1" but let's wait and see what 3.0 final brings us, eh?
Fear, as Palin stated, does NOT refer to soil-your-trousers fear, it refers to the overall respect and "I'm not gonna take that thing on myself" that used to be applied to the Onos in 1.0X. (Kinda like you God-fearing Christians out there... would you crap your pants, scream, and run if God appeared and started talking to you?)
So, what is the best way to instill that fear AND quite possibly balance the game at the same time?
My .02 cents: since marines have so many advantages already (range, easy building, more powerful defensive structures, more powerful upgrades, powerful structure-destruction equipment), the aliens should be able to make up for that through their mobility and a clear, obvious, and powerful advantage in physical strength. Right now, a light armor marine who is qiuck with his trigger finger can often pick skulks right out of their ambush nests. All it needs is to be forced around the other way, so that a skulk should be able to take on a rambo without too much difficulty. That would slowly force the marines back into group movements, so they don't dominate so much of the map so early by spreading out. Then, it would take a little tweaking of the strength and timing of fade appearances to keep fades from being an end-all when they show up.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
If a marines KNOWS exactly where a skulk is hiding, then the marine deserves to have a veyr good chance to winning that engagement. But yes, if the skulk gets the element of surprise, it should have the advantage.
Personally, I say, give the skulks a 70% speed increase (and then remove skulk bunnyhopping) and the skulk will be fine (at least in pubs) because a skulk who can ALWAYS go at bhop speeds (in vents, up/down slopes, even when running on walls etc) is scary.
To compensate, make Fade blink unaffected by celerity, and boost Blink's Adrenaline usage to make it about as efficient as Leap. In return, make Fades cost 5 res less.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
no, I dont agree with your. Leave the fade alone, he is perfect.
Omg, why you want to increase skulk speed by 70%<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> That makes no sense to me. All what the skulks need is a small increase of the HP/AP to balance the early game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Schimmel+Aug 8 2004, 03:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Schimmel @ Aug 8 2004, 03:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no, I dont agree with your. Leave the fade alone, he is perfect.
Omg, why you want to increase skulk speed by 70%<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> That makes no sense to me. All what the skulks need is a small increase of the HP/AP to balance the early game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Think about leap with 70% more speed.
In my opinion it should be marines have the advantage on defending and aliens on attacking... A mobile force is a wonderful attacker one, marines have more static thingies to use. Aliens should drive the game.
I totally agree with your points thunder, i think the only changes needed to balance this game are sum buffs for the skulk, maybe 10 more armor, an onos buff, and the fade hitbox fixed.
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Aug 2 2004, 12:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Aug 2 2004, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Good post, well thought out opinions, addresses a few points... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ummm, I'd say he adressed plenty of issues, I find that short effective posts are better then long drawn out "well thought" posts
<!--QuoteBegin-Skydancer+Aug 8 2004, 02:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skydancer @ Aug 8 2004, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Schimmel+Aug 8 2004, 03:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Schimmel @ Aug 8 2004, 03:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no, I dont agree with your. Leave the fade alone, he is perfect.
Omg, why you want to increase skulk speed by 70%<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> That makes no sense to me. All what the skulks need is a small increase of the HP/AP to balance the early game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Think about leap with 70% more speed.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Leap shouldn't change much, since he's talking about matching groundspeed with airspeed essentially - so leap would remain similiar/the same.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Aug 3 2004, 12:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Aug 3 2004, 12:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And it's very true. The alien team is in an identity crisis with 3.0. Are they still ambushers from the shadows, or are they just brute force? Are they strong in controlling an area, or are they strong in breaking past defenses? Are they the teamwork team or the individual strength team? It seems that the aliens should be very strong in holding an area, while the marines should be very strong in assaulting an area. (at the moment, it's the marines that are strongest in both, strangely enough) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines strong in assaulting? Offense for marines is costly in a number of ways (meds, area control, time to respawn and finally equipment), whereas for aliens its nearly free (high manueverability, free unit ideal for taking down RTs). Aliens do okay at nearly all levels of play - while they draw the shorter stick wherever direct confrontation happens, as far as staying power and ressource efficiency goes they win by an impressive margin. Heres an example :
Aliens within the first 6 minutes spend 300 res (6*50) - 150 of which are staring res. Marines in the first 6 minutes : 120 res - 8 Nodes (5 nodes up, 3 replacements) 65 res - base with 1 pack of mines and an armslab 100 res - a1/w1/w2/AA 70 res - phasetech, observatory and 3 phasegates 50 res - 5 medpacks/marine 15 res - 3 ammopacks/marine 50 res - 5 shotguns
----------------
~470 res / 6 minutes ~370 res after deducting the starting pool
This is all with just 2 outside phasegates, no additional mines, no replacement shotguns, no HMGs, no siege and no "We're rushing a hive" medspam. So a pretty defensive style alone is several times more expensive than an aliengame - which goes by on a small income usually divided across 3 fairly vulnerable RTs.
And here lies the problem. <b>We currently can't make aliens much better, because the marine economy will roll over and die.</b> But that doesn't mean the current situation is any sort of good balance - the heart of the problem lies in how this warfare is done. For marines, attacking the enemys weakspot is fun - you're attacking a defended area with your buddys and trying to check and clear all the nooks and crannys, and subsequently hold it down until the target is destroyed. One or two of these victorys can essentially win you the game.
For aliens, theres a problem - you're running around chewing inanimate, undefended objects hoping that a deathstick toting badass doesn't come by, and you have to tediously approximate where the illusory wall is that would protect you from his fire (around the core of the RT). Do this until either the resnode is down or he gets bored and charges.
Rinse and repeat for a few more minutes of constant biting, and you've won the game for your team. The rest is just the formality of sporing down a few marines while their res for medpacks runs low, and a Fade helps wipe out the group. Before their income is crippled though, combat on remotely equal skill levels gets you nowhere fast - you will die at a horrific ratio compared to them, many will survive due to plentiful meds and welders, and the few you do take down will have their equipment picked up and recycled until they respawn.
So the crux of the problem isn't the difficulty of winning as alien, but the way its most easily done being so trite. Its bearable if you have an attack-toggle bind, and you're actually doing it with your team - but there should still be a better way than requiring that much "player vs structure" combat. Except its become pretty much the marine teams identity : Easily replaceable structures, and tons of them.
Good insight Saltz. Perhaps the solution would be to add some sort of way for the marines to get more resources, while improving alien combat abilities? Many RTS games have buildable structures that automatically create Res... IE: Hackers, Blackmarket, and Supply drops in C&C Generals. 20 Res structures At armslab tech that give 1/2 the res of towers would give marines a way to, though not helping in the first few minutes, give long-term economic gains.
That way, the two teams would be on even footing in combat, and the marine economy would be able to have more of a boost.
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Aug 13 2004, 01:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Aug 13 2004, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines strong in assaulting? Offense for marines is costly in a number of ways (meds, area control, time to respawn and finally equipment), whereas for aliens its nearly free (high manueverability, free unit ideal for taking down RTs). Aliens do okay at nearly all levels of play - while they draw the shorter stick wherever direct confrontation happens, as far as staying power and ressource efficiency goes they win by an impressive margin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like what you're saying is that aliens can win so long as they don't run into any marines. Funny, I'd bet the exact same thing holds true with the marines as well. Except aliens have to run into marines sooner or later to win. Marines? They can win without ever seeing an alien. A early stealth siege cannon while aliens work on double can win the game for marines.
As for the economy thing, remember that costly != weak, and that one marine res != one kharaa res.
However, I'm completely baffled where you get the idea that aliens have staying power or resource efficiency.
From what I've seen, it's the exact opposite. Marines can win off of three resnodes. They can hold out for ages on one.
Try playing aliens with that level of res nodes and see how well things go. Aliens are far less efficient with their resources. So to say that the marine economy would roll over and die is ignoring that a lot of those expenses you list are one time only purchases. A marine dies with A1/W2? Guess what, he spawns with A1/W2. If he's lucky, some other marine has even juggled his shotgun so no more res needs to go there. An alien dies with 60 res worth of upgrades? Guess what.. he has to spend that 60 res again just to get back to where he was before.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Aug 13 2004, 04:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Aug 13 2004, 04:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Aug 13 2004, 01:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Aug 13 2004, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines strong in assaulting? Offense for marines is costly in a number of ways (meds, area control, time to respawn and finally equipment), whereas for aliens its nearly free (high manueverability, free unit ideal for taking down RTs). Aliens do okay at nearly all levels of play - while they draw the shorter stick wherever direct confrontation happens, as far as staying power and ressource efficiency goes they win by an impressive margin. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like what you're saying is that aliens can win so long as they don't run into any marines.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, staying power means aliens will eventually win a fight - provided equal or better ressource footing, which they need less territory, time and manpower invested to achieve.
For example : 3 Shotgunners and a HMGer setup outside your building second Hive. Lets assume they're decent, and your 2 Fades and one RT-Lerk can't stop them immediately. Sound bad? It isn't : They'll have trouble getting those Sieges up in a timely fashion, medding alongside, mining the place up and keeping eachother welded - because you're at the same time decimating their resnodes in areas they can't control, you've got flexible Fades to attack them both at their PG and in base, and you've got free Skulks to throw at them whenever they let their gaurd down for a second doing any of these things.
So, even if these guys get their sieges up - it'll have taken them quite some time. Oh look, the 2nd Hive is active - now you have twice the spawnrate, easy transportation to the Hive under siege, leap, bilebomb, umbra and metabolize. No matter how badly you do now, marines aren't going to kill you faster than you kill them - even though your skulks are taking 2 deaths per kill or more. Thats staying power.
And the beauty is, short of the extremely rare and painful lifeform-death, it costs aliens nothing to upkeep all this pressure - Skulks are free, as are all abilities. The most expensive is the Bilebomb suicide-Gorge.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Funny, I'd bet the exact same thing holds true with the marines as well. Except aliens have to run into marines sooner or later to win. Marines? They can win without ever seeing an alien. A early stealth siege cannon while aliens work on double can win the game for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do the people you play with have down syndrome? I can understand a Shotgun rush happening - or even a relocation into an active Hive succeeding. But "Stealth siege"? Puh-lease.
And on the same hand, Aliens can turn the game in their favor with a baserush if the opposition is equally incompetent. Just to be clear though, no match is ever won without killing all 6 members of the opposing team permanently, so they will have to see eachother even in case of Hivedeath or IP rape.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the economy thing, remember that costly != weak, and that one marine res != one kharaa res.
However, I'm completely baffled where you get the idea that aliens have staying power or resource efficiency.
From what I've seen, it's the exact opposite. Marines can win off of three resnodes. They can hold out for ages on one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, each open ressource nozzle outputs one ressource point every 4 seconds, and the towers don't differ in effect. If you'll take a look at the numbers used in estimation, I accounted for the invididual Kharaa ressource pool - assuming each member spent around 50 res, which would make sense in the normal 2 Fade, 1 Hive, 2 RTs, 3 DCs setup (240 res - the extra 60 would basicly be the RT lerk and the permgorge/re-gorge). The alien ressource system may be different, but not utterly incomparable - and as far as my comparison goes, theres perfect symmetry in the territory marines need to get 150 res to the team and what aliens do.
As for marines "winning off 3 resnodes" - again, you can argue any utterly random point off some pub experience that has happened somewhere sometime. You might as well argue that Handgrenades can take down Hives. Assuming 2 equally competent teams though (spectate a pug or match for example), you'll see that marines rarely hold 3 nodes defensively - they're either holding a whole slew, and their advantage is rapidly growing, or they're holding hardly any at all, and they're rapidly being decimated to their basenode. Thats because to keep up on the offense, they have to keep spending - if they can't keep spending, or if regardless of spending the offense breaks down, it all crumbles in no time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try playing aliens with that level of res nodes and see how well things go. Aliens are far less efficient with their resources. So to say that the marine economy would roll over and die is ignoring that a lot of those expenses you list are one time only purchases. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh? Everybody I've ever seen plays with 3 resnodes (well I saw ins try 4 once, but that got them buttraped), I don't know what you're talking about. And even 2 is fine as long as you had 3 until at least 2-3 minutes into the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A marine dies with A1/W2? Guess what, he spawns with A1/W2. If he's lucky, some other marine has even juggled his shotgun so no more res needs to go there. An alien dies with 60 res worth of upgrades? Guess what.. he has to spend that 60 res again just to get back to where he was before.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can only spend up to 6 res on upgrades. And thats the entire point - Aliens don't have to die with ressource investments, the game mechanics encourage them to bank on their staying power and defensive play instead of getting themselves killed like morons. Fades and Lerks have the speed to only fight where they can win - and Skulks are free and fairly powerful.
And while those nice little extras like up to 2 extra Skulkbites worth of armor, or 2 bullets less are helpful - they don't compare to the ability to close distance (leap), the ability to indirectly bomb structures (bilebomb), the ability to heal at twice the normal rate (metabolize) or being able to create a cloud in which every creature takes twice as much punishment. Its like saying free TShirts compare to winning a free cruise. Nuh uh.
While I believe the original poster's points are all true, I have a different approach to the subject that was raised in this part of his post
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, those who want some VARIETY in the game. The sad fact is, for everyone, that once you get good enough at a game, you will realise that it there is a best way to do things. Maybe this "best way" will be just getting carapace, or maybe it's a team of "1 cloaker + 1 SOF + 1 silence + 1 carapace + a regen lerk"... but at the end of the day, games will end up "stale" (as you call it) as there is a best way to do things. At the moment that is the defense chamber. Unchaining will not make this problem go away, it was just mean that for a period of 2 weeks, we don't know the best way to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is stated above is generally true, there always is a best way to do things, especially in a FPS. What I believe though, is that a game can be made so complex -by adding alot of different options, or in other ways- that it delays the finding of the "perfect" approach to playing the game. It can also be avoided almost totally by regular patches that changes balance and gameplay noticably. The second approach could -if done correctly- create a constantly balanced game only because players always are one step behind, never actually catching up to the developers. It could also leave the game constantly unbalanced, but differing between teams and attack/lifeform/weapon/structure depending on patch, thus making the game fun to play anyway as it forces players and teams to often adapt to a new type of gameplay.
Comments
But yes the arguments regarding true balance vs public balance have raged for a while now, personally I feel mp_tournamentmode should include balance changes when set to "1" but let's wait and see what 3.0 final brings us, eh?
Fear, as Palin stated, does NOT refer to soil-your-trousers fear, it refers to the overall respect and "I'm not gonna take that thing on myself" that used to be applied to the Onos in 1.0X. (Kinda like you God-fearing Christians out there... would you crap your pants, scream, and run if God appeared and started talking to you?)
So, what is the best way to instill that fear AND quite possibly balance the game at the same time?
My .02 cents: since marines have so many advantages already (range, easy building, more powerful defensive structures, more powerful upgrades, powerful structure-destruction equipment), the aliens should be able to make up for that through their mobility and a clear, obvious, and powerful advantage in physical strength. Right now, a light armor marine who is qiuck with his trigger finger can often pick skulks right out of their ambush nests. All it needs is to be forced around the other way, so that a skulk should be able to take on a rambo without too much difficulty. That would slowly force the marines back into group movements, so they don't dominate so much of the map so early by spreading out. Then, it would take a little tweaking of the strength and timing of fade appearances to keep fades from being an end-all when they show up.
Personally, I say, give the skulks a 70% speed increase (and then remove skulk bunnyhopping) and the skulk will be fine (at least in pubs) because a skulk who can ALWAYS go at bhop speeds (in vents, up/down slopes, even when running on walls etc) is scary.
To compensate, make Fade blink unaffected by celerity, and boost Blink's Adrenaline usage to make it about as efficient as Leap. In return, make Fades cost 5 res less.
Omg, why you want to increase skulk speed by 70%<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> That makes no sense to me. All what the skulks need is a small increase of the HP/AP to balance the early game.
Omg, why you want to increase skulk speed by 70%<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> That makes no sense to me. All what the skulks need is a small increase of the HP/AP to balance the early game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think about leap with 70% more speed.
In my opinion it should be marines have the advantage on defending and aliens on attacking... A mobile force is a wonderful attacker one, marines have more static thingies to use. Aliens should drive the game.
ummm, I'd say he adressed plenty of issues, I find that short effective posts are better then long drawn out "well thought" posts
Omg, why you want to increase skulk speed by 70%<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> That makes no sense to me. All what the skulks need is a small increase of the HP/AP to balance the early game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think about leap with 70% more speed.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leap shouldn't change much, since he's talking about matching groundspeed with airspeed essentially - so leap would remain similiar/the same.
And it's very true. The alien team is in an identity crisis with 3.0. Are they still ambushers from the shadows, or are they just brute force? Are they strong in controlling an area, or are they strong in breaking past defenses? Are they the teamwork team or the individual strength team? It seems that the aliens should be very strong in holding an area, while the marines should be very strong in assaulting an area. (at the moment, it's the marines that are strongest in both, strangely enough) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines strong in assaulting? Offense for marines is costly in a number of ways (meds, area control, time to respawn and finally equipment), whereas for aliens its nearly free (high manueverability, free unit ideal for taking down RTs). Aliens do okay at nearly all levels of play - while they draw the shorter stick wherever direct confrontation happens, as far as staying power and ressource efficiency goes they win by an impressive margin. Heres an example :
Aliens within the first 6 minutes spend 300 res (6*50) - 150 of which are staring res.
Marines in the first 6 minutes :
120 res - 8 Nodes (5 nodes up, 3 replacements)
65 res - base with 1 pack of mines and an armslab
100 res - a1/w1/w2/AA
70 res - phasetech, observatory and 3 phasegates
50 res - 5 medpacks/marine
15 res - 3 ammopacks/marine
50 res - 5 shotguns
----------------
~470 res / 6 minutes
~370 res after deducting the starting pool
This is all with just 2 outside phasegates, no additional mines, no replacement shotguns, no HMGs, no siege and no "We're rushing a hive" medspam. So a pretty defensive style alone is several times more expensive than an aliengame - which goes by on a small income usually divided across 3 fairly vulnerable RTs.
And here lies the problem. <b>We currently can't make aliens much better, because the marine economy will roll over and die.</b> But that doesn't mean the current situation is any sort of good balance - the heart of the problem lies in how this warfare is done. For marines, attacking the enemys weakspot is fun - you're attacking a defended area with your buddys and trying to check and clear all the nooks and crannys, and subsequently hold it down until the target is destroyed. One or two of these victorys can essentially win you the game.
For aliens, theres a problem - you're running around chewing inanimate, undefended objects hoping that a deathstick toting badass doesn't come by, and you have to tediously approximate where the illusory wall is that would protect you from his fire (around the core of the RT). Do this until either the resnode is down or he gets bored and charges.
Rinse and repeat for a few more minutes of constant biting, and you've won the game for your team. The rest is just the formality of sporing down a few marines while their res for medpacks runs low, and a Fade helps wipe out the group. Before their income is crippled though, combat on remotely equal skill levels gets you nowhere fast - you will die at a horrific ratio compared to them, many will survive due to plentiful meds and welders, and the few you do take down will have their equipment picked up and recycled until they respawn.
So the crux of the problem isn't the difficulty of winning as alien, but the way its most easily done being so trite. Its bearable if you have an attack-toggle bind, and you're actually doing it with your team - but there should still be a better way than requiring that much "player vs structure" combat. Except its become pretty much the marine teams identity : Easily replaceable structures, and tons of them.
That way, the two teams would be on even footing in combat, and the marine economy would be able to have more of a boost.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like what you're saying is that aliens can win so long as they don't run into any marines.
Funny, I'd bet the exact same thing holds true with the marines as well.
Except aliens have to run into marines sooner or later to win.
Marines? They can win without ever seeing an alien. A early stealth siege cannon while aliens work on double can win the game for marines.
As for the economy thing, remember that costly != weak, and that one marine res != one kharaa res.
However, I'm completely baffled where you get the idea that aliens have staying power or resource efficiency.
From what I've seen, it's the exact opposite. Marines can win off of three resnodes. They can hold out for ages on one.
Try playing aliens with that level of res nodes and see how well things go. Aliens are far less efficient with their resources. So to say that the marine economy would roll over and die is ignoring that a lot of those expenses you list are one time only purchases. A marine dies with A1/W2? Guess what, he spawns with A1/W2. If he's lucky, some other marine has even juggled his shotgun so no more res needs to go there. An alien dies with 60 res worth of upgrades? Guess what.. he has to spend that 60 res again just to get back to where he was before.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like what you're saying is that aliens can win so long as they don't run into any marines.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, staying power means aliens will eventually win a fight - provided equal or better ressource footing, which they need less territory, time and manpower invested to achieve.
For example : 3 Shotgunners and a HMGer setup outside your building second Hive. Lets assume they're decent, and your 2 Fades and one RT-Lerk can't stop them immediately. Sound bad? It isn't : They'll have trouble getting those Sieges up in a timely fashion, medding alongside, mining the place up and keeping eachother welded - because you're at the same time decimating their resnodes in areas they can't control, you've got flexible Fades to attack them both at their PG and in base, and you've got free Skulks to throw at them whenever they let their gaurd down for a second doing any of these things.
So, even if these guys get their sieges up - it'll have taken them quite some time. Oh look, the 2nd Hive is active - now you have twice the spawnrate, easy transportation to the Hive under siege, leap, bilebomb, umbra and metabolize. No matter how badly you do now, marines aren't going to kill you faster than you kill them - even though your skulks are taking 2 deaths per kill or more. Thats staying power.
And the beauty is, short of the extremely rare and painful lifeform-death, it costs aliens nothing to upkeep all this pressure - Skulks are free, as are all abilities. The most expensive is the Bilebomb suicide-Gorge.
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Funny, I'd bet the exact same thing holds true with the marines as well.
Except aliens have to run into marines sooner or later to win.
Marines? They can win without ever seeing an alien. A early stealth siege cannon while aliens work on double can win the game for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do the people you play with have down syndrome? I can understand a Shotgun rush happening - or even a relocation into an active Hive succeeding. But "Stealth siege"? Puh-lease.
And on the same hand, Aliens can turn the game in their favor with a baserush if the opposition is equally incompetent. Just to be clear though, no match is ever won without killing all 6 members of the opposing team permanently, so they will have to see eachother even in case of Hivedeath or IP rape.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the economy thing, remember that costly != weak, and that one marine res != one kharaa res.
However, I'm completely baffled where you get the idea that aliens have staying power or resource efficiency.
From what I've seen, it's the exact opposite. Marines can win off of three resnodes. They can hold out for ages on one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, each open ressource nozzle outputs one ressource point every 4 seconds, and the towers don't differ in effect. If you'll take a look at the numbers used in estimation, I accounted for the invididual Kharaa ressource pool - assuming each member spent around 50 res, which would make sense in the normal 2 Fade, 1 Hive, 2 RTs, 3 DCs setup (240 res - the extra 60 would basicly be the RT lerk and the permgorge/re-gorge). The alien ressource system may be different, but not utterly incomparable - and as far as my comparison goes, theres perfect symmetry in the territory marines need to get 150 res to the team and what aliens do.
As for marines "winning off 3 resnodes" - again, you can argue any utterly random point off some pub experience that has happened somewhere sometime. You might as well argue that Handgrenades can take down Hives. Assuming 2 equally competent teams though (spectate a pug or match for example), you'll see that marines rarely hold 3 nodes defensively - they're either holding a whole slew, and their advantage is rapidly growing, or they're holding hardly any at all, and they're rapidly being decimated to their basenode. Thats because to keep up on the offense, they have to keep spending - if they can't keep spending, or if regardless of spending the offense breaks down, it all crumbles in no time.
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Try playing aliens with that level of res nodes and see how well things go. Aliens are far less efficient with their resources. So to say that the marine economy would roll over and die is ignoring that a lot of those expenses you list are one time only purchases. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh? Everybody I've ever seen plays with 3 resnodes (well I saw ins try 4 once, but that got them buttraped), I don't know what you're talking about. And even 2 is fine as long as you had 3 until at least 2-3 minutes into the game.
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A marine dies with A1/W2? Guess what, he spawns with A1/W2. If he's lucky, some other marine has even juggled his shotgun so no more res needs to go there. An alien dies with 60 res worth of upgrades? Guess what.. he has to spend that 60 res again just to get back to where he was before.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can only spend up to 6 res on upgrades. And thats the entire point - Aliens don't have to die with ressource investments, the game mechanics encourage them to bank on their staying power and defensive play instead of getting themselves killed like morons. Fades and Lerks have the speed to only fight where they can win - and Skulks are free and fairly powerful.
And while those nice little extras like up to 2 extra Skulkbites worth of armor, or 2 bullets less are helpful - they don't compare to the ability to close distance (leap), the ability to indirectly bomb structures (bilebomb), the ability to heal at twice the normal rate (metabolize) or being able to create a cloud in which every creature takes twice as much punishment. Its like saying free TShirts compare to winning a free cruise. Nuh uh.
That's all I have to say =\
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, those who want some VARIETY in the game. The sad fact is, for everyone, that once you get good enough at a game, you will realise that it there is a best way to do things. Maybe this "best way" will be just getting carapace, or maybe it's a team of "1 cloaker + 1 SOF + 1 silence + 1 carapace + a regen lerk"... but at the end of the day, games will end up "stale" (as you call it) as there is a best way to do things. At the moment that is the defense chamber. Unchaining will not make this problem go away, it was just mean that for a period of 2 weeks, we don't know the best way to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is stated above is generally true, there always is a best way to do things, especially in a FPS. What I believe though, is that a game can be made so complex
-by adding alot of different options, or in other ways- that it delays the finding of the "perfect" approach to playing the game. It can also be avoided almost totally by regular patches that changes balance and gameplay noticably. The second approach could -if done correctly- create a constantly balanced game only because players always are one step behind, never actually catching up to the developers. It could also leave the game constantly unbalanced, but differing between teams and attack/lifeform/weapon/structure depending on patch, thus making the game fun to play anyway as it forces players and teams to often adapt to a new type of gameplay.