The Gorge
SmoodCroozn
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
<div class="IPBDescription">and why it needs to change...</div> *I have posted this idea in several threads and decided it was time for its own since the positive response*
I see people these days complaining about the Offense Chamber (OC), and the fact that it is hard to use effectively. People have thought of the idea of making the OC cost 5 resource (res), but it will result getting spammed everywhere. Many people see the problem within the OC, but I personally think the gorge (fatty) is to blame.
My preposal:
- Lower gorge cost to 5
- Lower starting res to 20
- Lower lerk cost to 25
Gorges are pathetic fatties. They run slow, have pitiful attacks, and will most likely die to a single marine who spots him. The first 2 statements of my preposal still allow a res tower to be made when the game initially starts. However, if you gorge and someone HAPPENS to find you in an egg, the penalty is less painful. For people who say EGG IN SAFE PLACES, well people make mistakes, that's all I can say. It would still take you the same time as beta 4a NS gorge costs as this system to get a hive, so balance would be same. Gorges are nothing more than a pause stage before dropping a structure then quickly evolving back to a fighter.
Now I compare gorge to a welder. Welders are easy to carry, press weapon 4 and wham it's there. Not only that, but when someone dies, it can still be picked up. A gorge however, is similar to the function of the welder, and it also heals hit points. The catch is that it removes an ENTIRE player from the battle lines where you could prevent marines from advancing further. Not only that, but at the times where it is not building or not healing, it is basically doing nothing and doing nothing is a not a way to help your team the best you can. A marine however, can switch weapons on the fly and is a fighter and healer all in one. Lowering the gorge cost to 5 makes gorge more practical to use and less painful when dying. It still plays the same way as beta4a NS, and makes OCs a bit cheaper when you need to get them down.
Ocs are fine as they are. Place a gorge to heal it and it can last for a long time. Sure the OCs can be hit without shooting back at the rine, but that is why alien players need to use OCs in masses and use the ability to place OCs in strategic positions. My solution will help get some extra OCs down which will not alter the game in a severe way like changing OC cost to 5.
Now the lerk. This class needs to be played a bit more by players. It is a complicated class since people are more used to being straight into action with skulks fades and onos. Lerks are the humble class. They spore NOT to kill, but to weaken. Then when you team faces the rines, it will be easier for them. I believe the cost should be 25 because of several reason. For one thing, lerks are a difficult form to play and 25 res should help newby lerkers as well as intermediate. Second I believe the lerk WAS supposed to cost 25 since onos is 75 and fade is 50 so 25 should come next... BUT since NS beta4a gives alien players the starting res of 25... I bet you know what I'm saying. Think about it, more spores making rines easier to kill... More umbra to help that quick getaway or a strong push... Primal scream to uh... get that obs down faster disabling beacons... It should DEFINITELY encourage more lerking, which is a good thing.
I see people these days complaining about the Offense Chamber (OC), and the fact that it is hard to use effectively. People have thought of the idea of making the OC cost 5 resource (res), but it will result getting spammed everywhere. Many people see the problem within the OC, but I personally think the gorge (fatty) is to blame.
My preposal:
- Lower gorge cost to 5
- Lower starting res to 20
- Lower lerk cost to 25
Gorges are pathetic fatties. They run slow, have pitiful attacks, and will most likely die to a single marine who spots him. The first 2 statements of my preposal still allow a res tower to be made when the game initially starts. However, if you gorge and someone HAPPENS to find you in an egg, the penalty is less painful. For people who say EGG IN SAFE PLACES, well people make mistakes, that's all I can say. It would still take you the same time as beta 4a NS gorge costs as this system to get a hive, so balance would be same. Gorges are nothing more than a pause stage before dropping a structure then quickly evolving back to a fighter.
Now I compare gorge to a welder. Welders are easy to carry, press weapon 4 and wham it's there. Not only that, but when someone dies, it can still be picked up. A gorge however, is similar to the function of the welder, and it also heals hit points. The catch is that it removes an ENTIRE player from the battle lines where you could prevent marines from advancing further. Not only that, but at the times where it is not building or not healing, it is basically doing nothing and doing nothing is a not a way to help your team the best you can. A marine however, can switch weapons on the fly and is a fighter and healer all in one. Lowering the gorge cost to 5 makes gorge more practical to use and less painful when dying. It still plays the same way as beta4a NS, and makes OCs a bit cheaper when you need to get them down.
Ocs are fine as they are. Place a gorge to heal it and it can last for a long time. Sure the OCs can be hit without shooting back at the rine, but that is why alien players need to use OCs in masses and use the ability to place OCs in strategic positions. My solution will help get some extra OCs down which will not alter the game in a severe way like changing OC cost to 5.
Now the lerk. This class needs to be played a bit more by players. It is a complicated class since people are more used to being straight into action with skulks fades and onos. Lerks are the humble class. They spore NOT to kill, but to weaken. Then when you team faces the rines, it will be easier for them. I believe the cost should be 25 because of several reason. For one thing, lerks are a difficult form to play and 25 res should help newby lerkers as well as intermediate. Second I believe the lerk WAS supposed to cost 25 since onos is 75 and fade is 50 so 25 should come next... BUT since NS beta4a gives alien players the starting res of 25... I bet you know what I'm saying. Think about it, more spores making rines easier to kill... More umbra to help that quick getaway or a strong push... Primal scream to uh... get that obs down faster disabling beacons... It should DEFINITELY encourage more lerking, which is a good thing.
Comments
As far as being killed as an egg... Egg in a safer place. Seriously. If you egg in the hall outside Marine Start, you deserve to die. Every alien except Onos can get in some high nook or cranny to safely gestate in.
As far as the Lerk, I sometimes think 30 res is too cheap. Ive seen people who know how to Lerk, and theyre close to godlike. Flying around at lightspeed, REALLY hard to kill unless you have turrets. So, I like the Lerk as is.
As far as OCs, id like to see them at 5 res, and to be spammed everywhere. Gives that infestation feel. Although, I think that would be a little overpowered. Make them weaker in some way, I guess.
Gorge costing 5 res would make bile bomb a serious (and cheap) threat. You have to consider that too.
Lerk cost 25? Hmmm. If all the parts of your plan are followed then I would be fine with that.
Someone already suggested to switch bilebomb and webs, what is an interesting idea. Because: Hive 2 Aliens are still not completed and need a defensive weapon.
Hive 3 Aliens are offensive and it would make more sense to add in bilebomb in slot 4.
Lowering lerk costs is neccesary when you lower starting res to 20. But keep in mind, that fades and onos would then appear 5 res later.
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there is no safe place other than a vent, wide rafter or on top of a hive.
i can leave MS in nearly any map and get to a gorge egg before it opens most of the time. even if it has opened, all the better kill gorge, kill rt = minus 25 rez.
right at the start the gorges exspect you to be in ms and tend to be careless. even if they gorge in a safe place their goal is to drop a rt and get to the fight asap.
a nice change would be to lower the time it takes to go skulk and make it free to go skulk. most of the time after building a rt you dont even have the 2 rez to go skulk (adding more time till you can skulk). you may say "kill in console" but causeing a line to spawn is not a good way to sart the game. if 3 people get rts (then type kill) and 2 people get killed, thats 50sec untill all have spawned (i think).
time is very important...
On the point of gorge costs and ocs, you said that gorges can't really help their team in combat because they are either building or healing. So why use the argument that ocs are fine because gorges are healing them... one of the reason you pointed at that, at the moment, gorges are unable to help the team. OC's should cost 5 res in my opinion so that they are harder to take out, people will actually USE them and there will be less need for healing them because now marines will have to potentially deal with twice the amount of ocs.
was in a game yesterday, we took maint on eclipse, and the gorge dropped an oc behind the rt to protect the hive......
turrets go down if they're not checked by rines, and same for OC.
Maybe multiple shotguns. Good luck hitting a Lerk with every pellet as it flys by over your head at warp factor 5.
The best counter to a Lerk honestly is a turret farm, as they dont miss. Or a skilled person with a HMG, since the massive clip size allows you to track them without worrying about a reload.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there is no safe place other than a vent, wide rafter or on top of a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And Jetpackers could get there. There never should be a place thats 100% safe to gestate all the time.
If they were cheap, then they would be at every rez node and key map point. If they were made more powerful, then they would still be at every key map point and at a few rez nodes. I don't think people want to see OCs at all --even at key areas.
It really depends on what the devs want the OC to do. Right now, I really don't see the cost justification of the OC being an early warning system. And it fails at everything else it can do.
What I would like to see is a rebuildable OC. It works and costs the same as it does now, but when the OC dies it leaves a little nub on the ground that can be rebuilt by a gorge --free of charge. That numb would have its own health, like 3k. If the nub was killed then the OC would be truly dead. The marines could still kill the OC --but it would take time, making it a better early warning system.
In the current system, OCs costing 5 res will immediately allow 3 OCs per player, which I believe is a bit too much for marines. The current system that makes OCs cost 10 res allows 1.5 OCs to be made right after you gorge. I believe a dramatic double increase of OCs will seriously alter the game. If you want them to be 5 res, they would have to be the crappiest piece of flesh which wouldn't be worth wasting your time building it. OCs are fine as they are, maybe they could use a SLIGHT boost, but too much and you got marines that can't get out of mstart. So please put the OC costing 5 res to a rest. Make your own topic whatever.
As for my system. I believe making Fade and Onos 5 res later is a good thing. It may encourage more players to build structures and gorge rather than res "whoring" and going Onos or Fade.
Lerks in my opinion are powerful not in their spores, BUT the fact that it mentally irritates the marines. Example:
*Lerk spores from vent*
Lerk: Chuckle.
Marine 1: I WANNA KILL THAT MOFO I'LL JUST STAY IN THIS AREA UNTIL HE POPS OUT! HEY YOU STAY WITH ME TOO LET'S GET HIM!
Marine 2: YEA LET'S KILL THAT BASTAGE!
*Soon 5 marines are waiting for a single lerk to pop out*
The best way to pass a lerk is to IGNORE it. Spores? Move away from it. Allow the lerk to waste his time rather than waste yours. I have seen many games where marines are held up in an area *double res at ns_caged, subspace hive/double res in ns_veil, mstart vent on ns_eclipse* because of a single lerk.
Still, if that does not work... Use the newly added HAND GRENADES! Though they take a while to pin and the trajectory is hard to aim, it is pretty much the only viable solution to get a lerk in a vent. (don't even get me started on marine towers, bleh) Fades as well as lerks die easily to a shotgun as well.
The most valuable thing in NS is time people. The time you spent waiting for a lerk to pop out is the time you could have built that rt which could have gotten your team upgrades, etc.
ANYWAY...
Schimmel, web at Hive 2 will make the marines welder crazy... I think bile is more useful for taking down incoming siege and turrets...
Olmy, I really don't understand what the heck you are saying. Yes, gorges are not meant for battlelines and yes, gorges are meant to sit back and heal others and buildings, UNLESS bilebombing which is hive 2... but the fact is, a single gorge can make groups of OCs last many times longer, then without one... Again OCs are not supposed to hold an area forever, just a few minutes or maybe longer if you are lucky. They are very useful for skulks and other creatures who can ambush marines because they are focusing and wasting ammo on the OC.
OCs are meant to waste time for the marines, similar to turrets on the marine team. They are not meant to hold an area forever, they just make capturing an area a longer process. With an OC, you can occupy some marines which could be building RTs in other places, or hunting your own RTs. OCs just give you extra time.
The marines are fully capable of turtling themselves down. They have self-defending buildings (electrified TF's and restowers)...they have ranged weapons...on TOP of that, they are the ultimate structure busters with shotguns, grenade launchers and even sieges...
The khaara has NOTHING that can compare against that, so I think it's only fair that their OC's are boosted somehow...and don't come and say that the marines would be in a severe disadvantage...as I said, they are the ultimate structure busters...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there is no safe place other than a vent, wide rafter or on top of a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And Jetpackers could get there. There never should be a place thats 100% safe to gestate all the time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
start of the game there are no jp's <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
btw...
BioBomb is used to take down building, it is ment to be a threat but the gorge is so weak it cannt get close enough/live long enough to do any real damage.
BioBomb is used to take down building, it is ment to be a threat but the gorge is so weak it cannt get close enough/live long enough to do any real damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless it's in a vent... umbraed, or behind dcs...
Gorges are very useful for taking down a siege when it comes to your hive. They do critical damage to marine buildings, AND they distract marines long enough for the alien fighters to do some damage.
case closed
case closed <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
can an onos attack through walls?
We both know the answer to it.
Very likely, and has happened to me a few times. Without celerity it isn't that hard to shoot down a lerk even if you are alone -as long as you have the sg. Also, it has a potential to pin-point all pellets to a small area, quite often resulting in those insta-gibs, no matter how fast the lerk was flying.
the only problem i see is it takes a group of them to have any impact and it takes to long to get a group of them.
at the start you can afford 1 oc, a minute or 2 later a 2nd.
problem is, most decent players can easily rush and kill a gorge before 2 oc's can kill him,
extremely easily if he gets a med or 2.
a large part of it is the crappy accuracy and response time oc's have.
a marine running straight forward will be missed by alot of the oc's shot,
some people say 5 for an oc would help, some say that'd just make oc spam and theyd need to be made shittier still to make up for it,
why not make them inbetween..., like 8 res?
it'd still take a bit to drop em, but youd have that 2nd oc sooner at the start and a 3rd one not to far away. making it much less likely to be rushed by a single marine.
also i wouldnt mind seeing a potential 'upgrade' for oc's,
maybe give the oc an extra 5 res to take it out of commision for 20 seconds or so then have it come back slightly stronger.
such as:
increased accuracy
a tad longer range
bit more regen or ac/hp
this way you can get a half decent grooup of oc's without taking all day to do it, but you still cant spam them everywhere. plus where youve only got the room for 1 or 2 oc's to shoot you can make those 2 a bit more effective for a higher cost.
Though I do agree OC needs tweaking. Two things I'ld like to see implemented are:
1) OC's do 10 damage at the base hive, 12 damage at the second hive, and 14 damage at the third hive, at which point aliens have probably won. Justification?Turrets will be upgraded 1 damage for every level upgrade, which are always cheaper then hives, and come much faster.
2) OC's bullets fire faster. OC bullets are so easy to dodge. If you made them faster they would get the boost they sorely need.
Those suggestions would give the OC the boost it needs, meanwhile not totally overpowering it. In order to truely make it lethal, get 3 gorges who recently dropped RTs to get together and lame up a key point. It will not be taken by marines for a while.
No other class, not even the Marine commander, requires the skill and finesse of the master Gorge. No one else is capable of such masterful pathfinding, evasion techniques, incredible aim, chamber placement, and resource management.
Where would you be without the Gorges? You would be nothing. It takes hard work and dedication to pull the Aliens through. Some would argue that the aliens are communist in design. NAY! The marines are! They are ruled by ONE MAN, everyone gives their resources to him, and he decides how it is used! Meanwhile, the Kharaa are all out for themselves.
And when these noob Fades blink into shotties? And when the res**** Onos' egg is found? And when your Lerk realizes he's completely useless now with a nerfed Umbra and bite? Who will save the day? THE GORGE.
To all you Master Gorges out there who evolve at the start of the game and stick with it until final victory, I salute you and your 32-0 score! SIEG GORGE. <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
why?
Gorge Cost lowered to 5 res, start res to 20.
You have to gorge at the 45 res mark to build a hive, 5 res earlier. You dont ahve to wait longer for the hive, it´s exactly the same time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gorging is a way of life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that´s almost truer, except for that gorging is only fun I I only play gorge when I have much res and am annoyed from skulking, fading etc.
Gorges are <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you hate GORGEYS then you are seriously <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
People love gorges, whether it be riding an onos or being thrown off a suicide point by a Lerk.
Props, to Schimmel who seems to be the only person taking this seriously. Thanks again for pointing out the common mistake of saying "yea hives res towers and crap will out 5 res earlier". The fact is everything will come at the SAME EXACT unless you gorge multiple times, since the starting res is dropped by 5.
Fades, Onos come 5 res later, lerk costing 25 will allow players to get it at the same exact time as beta4a. Pretty much a little change, not too game changing.
OC - 10 res
TF+elect+no turrets - 45 res
its not meant to be a game stopper, ocs are primarily used to weaken and alert alines to marine pushes into vital areas. If they attack it then they are being pinned and the alien team can close in on the marine surge, if not they will still suffer damage and be easier to kill, 5 res or 10 res both ways thats what theyre designed for.
As for changing lerk, trust me a silenced lerk is a deadly lerk, especially with cara and SoF. Lerks already show up within 1 or 2 kills involving that person, usually within a minute or two at longest. Sg's are useless if theyre facing the wrong way, and theres confusion causing marines to hit their own team half the time. You can essentially bhop in the air as well, good lerks pick off people from behind and weaken them, bad ones charge straight at people and fly away in a straight line. Im guessing that most of ypou fall into the 'bad' category then...
Gorge is fine, you evolve in the wrong place at the wrong time its YOUR fault. Ive killed marines easily, all you need is a rt and you can essentially wait for him to waste his bullets or for your adren to recharge.Like the lerk the gorge is a humble class, as a permagorge since 1.02 i can tell you that. They SUPPORT the other classes by building rt's, warning oc systems, and upgrade changers, healing skulks early on in a push on a location such as marine relocation is vital, as is bbing seige or pg attempts near the hive later on. 10 res also isnt much if you happen to be a good skulk.
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there is no safe place other than a vent, wide rafter or on top of a hive.
i can leave MS in nearly any map and get to a gorge egg before it opens most of the time. even if it has opened, all the better kill gorge, kill rt = minus 25 rez.
right at the start the gorges exspect you to be in ms and tend to be careless. even if they gorge in a safe place their goal is to drop a rt and get to the fight asap.
a nice change would be to lower the time it takes to go skulk and make it free to go skulk. most of the time after building a rt you dont even have the 2 rez to go skulk (adding more time till you can skulk). you may say "kill in console" but causeing a line to spawn is not a good way to sart the game. if 3 people get rts (then type kill) and 2 people get killed, thats 50sec untill all have spawned (i think).
time is very important... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what makes an are safe? the fact that you won't die while your there. in that case you can make ANYWHERE safe if you bring along support, good teamwork can resolve in better playing, if gorges go eggs and you're a skulk passing by, stick by the egg till it hatches and the RTs up it helps out a lot
I think gorges should cost 7
I think ocs should cost 10
I think lerk should cost 30
and thats what I think
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but there's still marine pryamids!!!! I've actually played games where marines have used stacking themselves to send in a rambo to clear out a vent or two....boy its funny to see those aliens react to that