Balance Is Not The Point
Psi57
Join Date: 2003-08-22 Member: 20067Members
Join Date: 2003-08-22 Member: 20067Members
<div class="IPBDescription">An epic struggle is.</div> I see far too many posts talking about balancing both sides. To achieve perfect balance, the sides would have to be either:
a) Identical.
b) Each evolution / upgrade / combination of either to have a perfect counter.
From the get go, balance is bad.
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The above part is relatively inoffensive and probably won't cause to much flamage (though you never know on a board of idiots). This part most definately will.
<b>Marines should be weaker than aliens.</b>
In 1.04 I considered the joke in "Natural Selection" to be that the humans obviously sucked. I say it almost as a sort of Luddite joke: that for all the technology we and especially our future will have, biology will still kick our ****.
Though marines could win by being clever / doing special things (though I have no love for jp / hmg rushes), for the most part they had trouble defeating an implacable enemy such as the khraa.
People always tried to stack rines for a reason: rine wins were fun. Being the underdog is fun.
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Right now, the game is not as fun as it used to be. Marines have extremely powerful weaponry (220 damage shotgun **** is a good example), while the onos and fade die in 5 secs to two lvl 3 hmgs. This is beyond stupid, its sad.
Conclusion:
By some series of nerfs to rines or buffs to aliens, the marines should only EVER win if they use teamwork, strategy, or deceit.
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Flame away, fools.
a) Identical.
b) Each evolution / upgrade / combination of either to have a perfect counter.
From the get go, balance is bad.
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The above part is relatively inoffensive and probably won't cause to much flamage (though you never know on a board of idiots). This part most definately will.
<b>Marines should be weaker than aliens.</b>
In 1.04 I considered the joke in "Natural Selection" to be that the humans obviously sucked. I say it almost as a sort of Luddite joke: that for all the technology we and especially our future will have, biology will still kick our ****.
Though marines could win by being clever / doing special things (though I have no love for jp / hmg rushes), for the most part they had trouble defeating an implacable enemy such as the khraa.
People always tried to stack rines for a reason: rine wins were fun. Being the underdog is fun.
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Right now, the game is not as fun as it used to be. Marines have extremely powerful weaponry (220 damage shotgun **** is a good example), while the onos and fade die in 5 secs to two lvl 3 hmgs. This is beyond stupid, its sad.
Conclusion:
By some series of nerfs to rines or buffs to aliens, the marines should only EVER win if they use teamwork, strategy, or deceit.
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Flame away, fools.
Comments
The marines and aliens are balanced
In 2.0 they went for fun instead of balance (a last min change seriously scewed the balance, but made it more fun). 2.0 died b/c there was no balance.
With out Balance, the game aint fun (for long)
I'd write "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA", but that wouldn't convey my emotions to their full extent.
I think I know why I stopped posting on these forums
(Of course most of my posts are about buffing aliens, so it makes sense that i would want to make them better than marines).
Just do this:
Raise skulk health to 70/25
Lower gorge cost to 0, the aliens start with 15 resources
Resource towers can be sporified for 5 resources
Upgrades now cost 5 resources each instead of 2
Since the lerk will come later in the game in NS mode, raise health to 140/60
Raise lerk cost to 35
Raise spore damage to 15/second, does 1/3 damage to HA instead of no damage
Spores now last for 8 seconds, and use 50% energy
Umbra now lasts for 5 seconds and blocks 2/3 bullets, and use 50% energy
No more RFK for marines
Electrifying a structure costs 15 res, and electricity does 25 damage
At level 3, silence will silence the hits from all attacks
Raise fade cost to 65
Raise fade health to 300/300
Lower Onos health to 550/450
Onos now takes 1/2 damage from all weapons
Onos are now tied to hive 2
Carapace adds 1/3 armor with each level
Each level of redemption adds 50%/second more chance to redeem, instead of 35% chance/level
Raise fade speed to 275
Raise Onos speed to 260
Raise Skulk speed to 320
Raise gorge speed to 200
Celerity now gives a 12% boost to speed/level instead of a 25 unit/second boost.
Regeneration adds 4% regeneration/level. Health and armor count toward the total regeneration
Adrenaline adds double energy gain for gorge than any other alien
New fade special ability: It is always 75% cloaked
Raise Onos cost to 100
Cloaking times are halfed
SoF is darker on marines that have taken more damage
Raise Primal Scream time to 8 seconds
Raise charge damage to 450/second, and does double damage vs. structures
Raise AR damage to 30, boost RoF to 1.75/second, lower energy cost to 5%
Raise Xenoside damage to 250
Each hive has 8000 health, and heals 20% health and armor combined instead of 15% health only
RFK depends on all upgrades that a marine has. 1 resource is automatically awarded, followed by 1 more for every 10 spent on that marine (including upgrades)
Hives cost 75 resources instead of 40
Upgrade chambers cost 15 resources
Offense chambers cost 5 resources, and health is reduced to 750
Hive armor increase raised from 2, 2.5 3 to 2, 3 and 4 with each hive from 1 to 3
Hive build time raised to 200
Gorge healspray now heals 16 x the number of lifeform (so thats 16 on skulk, 32 gorge, 48 lerk, 64 fade and 80 onos)
So, in order to get an Onos with hive 3, + 3 level 3 upgrades, it would cost the team a minimum of 400 res. If you had 7 resource towers, it would cost a total of 505 resources. The aliens would require lots of resources, but would be more powerful for how much is spent. Also, carapace could be just as powerful as regeneration, since level 3 will double your armor on all aliens.
Right now, an onos with hive 3 and 3 level 3 upgrades costs 249 res. With 7 resource towers it costs 356 resources.
No rfk for marine? Defenite no, no, never.
The only thing thats too weak is the onos, but then again, 3 onos is unstoppable.
Bullets should go trough? Anyway I don't know.
Onos should come back too 100 res, but stronger. More hp, less armor so it does'nt suck at one hive.
Skulk's armor should go back to 20 so that hives give a better boost.
More than that will just overpower the aliens, fade is plenty strong enough but maybe could get a 25 percent damage bonus vs HA.
IMO that shoots your entire argument in the foot. You WANT one team to win 90% of the time?
(Of course most of my posts are about buffing aliens, so it makes sense that i would want to make them better than marines).
Just do this:
Raise skulk health to 70/25
Lower gorge cost to 0, the aliens start with 15 resources
Resource towers can be sporified for 5 resources
Upgrades now cost 5 resources each instead of 2
Since the lerk will come later in the game in NS mode, raise health to 140/60
Raise lerk cost to 35
Raise spore damage to 15/second, does 1/3 damage to HA instead of no damage
Spores now last for 8 seconds, and use 50% energy
Umbra now lasts for 5 seconds and blocks 2/3 bullets, and use 50% energy
No more RFK for marines
Electrifying a structure costs 15 res, and electricity does 25 damage
At level 3, silence will silence the hits from all attacks
Raise fade cost to 65
Raise fade health to 300/300
Lower Onos health to 550/450
Onos now takes 1/2 damage from all weapons
Carapace adds 1/3 armor with each level
Each level of redemption adds 50%/second more chance to redeem, instead of 35% chance/level
Raise fade speed to 275
Raise Onos speed to 260
Raise Skulk speed to 320
Raise gorge speed to 200
Celerity now gives a 12% boost to speed/level instead of a 25 unit/second boost.
Regeneration adds 4% regeneration/level. Health and armor count toward the total regeneration
Adrenaline adds double energy gain for gorge than any other alien
New fade special ability: It is always 75% cloaked
Raise Onos cost to 100
Cloaking times are halfed
SoF is darker on marines that have taken more damage
Raise Primal Scream time to 8 seconds
Raise charge damage to 450/second, and does double damage vs. structures
Raise AR damage to 30, boost RoF to 1.75/second, lower energy cost to 5%
Raise Xenoside damage to 250
Each hive has 8000 health, and heals 20% health and armor combined instead of 15% health only
RFK depends on all upgrades that a marine has. 1 resource is automatically awarded, followed by 1 more for every 10 spent on that marine (including upgrades)
Hives cost 75 resources instead of 40
Upgrade chambers cost 15 resources
Offense chambers cost 5 resources, and health is reduced to 750
Hive armor increase raised from 2, 2.5 3 to 2, 3 and 4 with each hive from 1 to 3
Hive build time raised to 200
Gorge healspray now heals 16 x the number of lifeform (so thats 16 on skulk, 32 gorge, 48 lerk, 64 fade and 80 onos)
So, in order to get an Onos with hive 3, + 3 level 3 upgrades, it would cost the team a minimum of 400 res. If you had 7 resource towers, it would cost a total of 505 resources. The aliens would require lots of resources, but would be more powerful for how much is spent. Also, carapace could be just as powerful as regeneration, since level 3 will double your armor on all aliens.
Right now, an onos with hive 3 and 3 level 3 upgrades costs 249 res. With 7 resource towers it costs 356 resources. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are officially crazy, if that was ever implemented, the Kharra would dominate the game.
Look at the onos. With this, it essentially has 1100/900 health, and will go up to 1100/1800 health with level 3 carapace. At hive 3, with the hive armor boost raised, that is a total of 8300 health. At hive 2, that is a total of 6500 health.
Onos needs a boost. Besides, most people (i assume) are still going to get regeneration over carapace, which leaves them with 4700 health at hive 3, + regen.
The fade gets 150 more armor for anothe 15 resources...sounds reasonable to me, even though the fade would be amazingly powerful. Plus, if it is hive 3, the fade needs another 15 res to get 3 upgrades, due to upgrade cost being raised.
Skulks can finally take a marine 1 on 1.
Lerks are much stronger (they have 75 more health at hive 1, 135 more health at hive 2 and 195 more health at hive 3 then the current lerks do).
Really, what I want is higher level lifeforms to be seen less often, but to be feared like they used to be. Remember when people saw an Onos and got scared? Well, this is what I want. Same with the fade.
More marines together == More firepower.
Aliens alone == Still equally powerful.
Call that a difference between nano-tech and bacterium-collaboration, and you have a game where lone marine is always weaker than a lone skulk without really touching to the current balance. Of course, there is a lot to correct elsewhere, but this is just my idea of how to make marines again the "underdogs" of NS. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Mind you, marines will still be far more powerful with the help of a good commander / a good strategy, but aliens will simply have the advantage "by the numbers".
In a sense this will "balance" the game. Centralized command is a force multiplier. While a single rine should be killed by a single skulk (both with the same skill level) about 80% of the time (I know CS ****: itll screw up your 40:2 ratio), a group of marines that are watching each others backs and have a place to go / something specific to do should have no problem taking on an army of skulks (if they focus their fire).
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Not to distract from the point of this thread, but I have something to say to all you wonderful people who get a ratio of 20:3 with the shotgun:
I know you're not "hackers" or "cheaters"; your mouse-eye coordination and reaction time is simply amazing due to years of playing fps games. However, I hope one of three things happens to you (when you kill me especially <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->):
1. You get raped by a clown.
2. You suffer a massive MI (as all those cheetos and bottles of code red catch up to you).
3. Or (worse than both 1 and 2), you get some sun.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&s=&f=5' target='_blank'>Second, wrong forum doods.</a>
Marines, overall, did dominate 1.0X. However, I can't remember how well-matched other tactics were. Can we get anybody to speak authoritively on the subject of non JP-HMG tactics and balance?
If they are "CS ****"s, then how are they geting a 20:1 ratio?
point<span style='color:#062639'>..........................</span>your crosshair
o<span style='color:#062639'>.........................................</span>+
If they are "CS ****"s, then how are they geting a 20:1 ratio? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't, unless they play on a totel nub server or hack, then cry to the cs forums about "why'd I get banned WTH"
Marines, overall, did dominate 1.0X. However, I can't remember how well-matched other tactics were. Can we get anybody to speak authoritively on the subject of non JP-HMG tactics and balance? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
During 1.04, I played on the Team Fun server, and I rarely saw the jp/hmg rush. The game was quite fun, and it seemed balanced. Aliens were able to break 2-hive lockdowns reasonably often (since the lockdown took so much effort that it slowed marine tech down). Marines often got JP's or HA (along with one hive locked down) at about the same time that aliens got a second hive and fades. Web went up in time to stop JP's from singlehandedly tearing apart a hive. The battle between HA and acid rocket fades was common, and seemed balanced.
No rfk for marine? Defenite no, no, never.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
my problem with rfk is the strat i see nearly every game.
rambo gets to hive and spawn camps. most of the skulks on the front get killed before they know a spawn camper is there. marine friends move into the hive and the spawn camp is comeplet.
now what do they do now the there enemy is wateing to spawn?
they just sit there and camp. they dont bother shooting the hive untill they get jp's. spawn camping = ty for wasting my time. i came for a game a all a got was a spawn camp for the win.
if you are going to spawn camp the hive shoot the thing. 2-3 shoot the hive the rest cover. you dont need rt's, hive lock downs, upgrdes and certanly not jp's.
just win already and stop wasteing our game time.
you might say deffend your hive. well you are right. just keep in mind the cost.
oc's suck so much it takes 4 oc's to defend a room aganst one marine. it takes even more oc's to defend a hall way. even with defences up, med spam will see them though every time.
the only true counter is the pin them in their base but now we have the flip side. you might say you have them pined in their base finish them. well it is not that easy. the second they start to lose a tf is droped and the long siege of MS has now started. even if you get as far as killing most (even all) of the marines the beacon sounds, marines spawn in. they kill the rush and what do you know, rfk. now we can build more turrets...
This is the time that I ask for a game mode that is almost exactly like 1.04, with a few minor balance changes, and all of the bugs fixed.
Personally, when I want to win I play Aliens. It's easier; more autonomy and less dependence on teamwork, trickier tricks (redem rules), not needing a central authority to be watching and on-the-ball WHEN YOU NEED SOMETHING, etc.
But I appreciate Rine wins more, no matter which because it's pretty magical when the comm is competent, and everyone follows orders and works together for the win. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There's a problem with that. Fixing the bugs is a huge change in balance. While things like jp thrust and cost can be fixed and have basically the intended consequence, the fact that the hitboxes were smaller than the model is a big thing. Not fixing it is bad (for obvious reasons), but fixing it is a huge change in balance. A 1.04 onos with a 3.x hitbox would not be scary.
However, there are constant suggestions to make the fade and the onos have more and more hp and armor. Even when its improved, its still not enough.
I would love to nerf the damage of all rine weapons by 30%, but again, 95% of these wonderful forums would flame me. Perhaps the answer is giving some sort of damage reduction (yes I've read the numerous posts) to the onos and perhaps the fade.
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On another note I'm quite surprised why I haven't been flamed by the "skilled" people on these forums. Every other thread I've read that even barely suggested buffing aliens or nerfing rines has been on fire.
The only way to achieve balance by making everyone happy in both classic and combat is to have seperate value's for each alien/marine class instead of balancing the game off two completely different game modes. Alien's may be more powerful in combat because they can select more than one upgrade for each chamber time! While marine's are almost completely the same from combat to classic except they have a comm that has aimbot skills on dropping medpack/ammo. Yet, they still own carapace/regen/celerity/whatever Onos like it's a walking beanbag. Making most Onos resort to stomping + devouring or suicide rushing with redeem (me) to get frags.
I wish I was a mapper. I'd run a map on their clients full of hot **** porn all over the walls.
I hate the shotgun (if you haven't figured it out by now).
Maybe I should turn this into a "lets buff aliens" / "lets nerf rines" thread instead of a "let's get some unbalance" / "I hate the shotgun" thread.