Ns Weapons
LazerMane
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2135Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2135Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Limit? Someone tell me once and for all</div> The following is neither FCC approved nor is the opinion of Ubisoft, Inc., or any of it's affiliates, staff, or staff's friends. Or staff's friend's friends.
It could also be wildly innacurate. So bear with me.
I gathered, a long time ago, that Half-Life the Game, had engine limits imposed upon it so that all mods that were ever made for it will still remain true to the minimum system requirements on the back of the box that was published way back in... what was it? 1998?
Now, I have also gathered from these forums that Chuck would LOVE to add more weapons and alien classes to the game, but there's a small problem with weapons: there's a finite number of weapons you can have loaded into a mod all at once, whether they're being used or not. This was a Valve-set limitation to the engine itself, because of the above problem with min.sys.req.'s.
So now, for the longest time now, i've been wondering: did the aliens get short-changed when it came to weapon models?
I can't tell the difference between the Fade's Blink and Metabolize weaponmodels. The skulk's idle jaw is no different between firing parasites and biting people.
The Onos imparticular is especially weird. Selection of either Charge or Stomp yeild long and cool sharp tusks on either side of the central nosebone, but if you sit there for a while, they eventually cycle back to looking just like the regular Gore Weapon until you decide to press fire. I think that it's all the same weapon model, it's just that selecting a different weapon triggers an animation for that particular weapon that's really really long (and appears to be idle, but is actually just playing out a really long animation that lasts for several seconds), which explains why the Onos horns disappear when you leave them out. (Hey, you'll poke someone's eye out, anyways!)
But isn't it just easier to have seperate weapon models for every alien weapon? Doesn't having Stomp and Charge and Gore grouped into separate weapon categorys on the hud count towards your overall weapon limit anyways?
Someone please enlighten me. What's the deal with weapons in NS? Obviously they took shortcuts, but where and how?
Will it be different if we see an NS: Source?
It could also be wildly innacurate. So bear with me.
I gathered, a long time ago, that Half-Life the Game, had engine limits imposed upon it so that all mods that were ever made for it will still remain true to the minimum system requirements on the back of the box that was published way back in... what was it? 1998?
Now, I have also gathered from these forums that Chuck would LOVE to add more weapons and alien classes to the game, but there's a small problem with weapons: there's a finite number of weapons you can have loaded into a mod all at once, whether they're being used or not. This was a Valve-set limitation to the engine itself, because of the above problem with min.sys.req.'s.
So now, for the longest time now, i've been wondering: did the aliens get short-changed when it came to weapon models?
I can't tell the difference between the Fade's Blink and Metabolize weaponmodels. The skulk's idle jaw is no different between firing parasites and biting people.
The Onos imparticular is especially weird. Selection of either Charge or Stomp yeild long and cool sharp tusks on either side of the central nosebone, but if you sit there for a while, they eventually cycle back to looking just like the regular Gore Weapon until you decide to press fire. I think that it's all the same weapon model, it's just that selecting a different weapon triggers an animation for that particular weapon that's really really long (and appears to be idle, but is actually just playing out a really long animation that lasts for several seconds), which explains why the Onos horns disappear when you leave them out. (Hey, you'll poke someone's eye out, anyways!)
But isn't it just easier to have seperate weapon models for every alien weapon? Doesn't having Stomp and Charge and Gore grouped into separate weapon categorys on the hud count towards your overall weapon limit anyways?
Someone please enlighten me. What's the deal with weapons in NS? Obviously they took shortcuts, but where and how?
Will it be different if we see an NS: Source?
Comments
The devs know that it can cause problems sometimes (especially bite/leap/xenocide), so that's in the bugtracker.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Onos imparticular is especially weird. Selection of either Charge or Stomp yeild long and cool sharp tusks on either side of the central nosebone, but if you sit there for a while, they eventually cycle back to looking just like the regular Gore Weapon until you decide to press fire. I think that it's all the same weapon model, it's just that selecting a different weapon triggers an animation for that particular weapon that's really really long (and appears to be idle, but is actually just playing out a really long animation that lasts for several seconds), which explains why the Onos horns disappear when you leave them out. (Hey, you'll poke someone's eye out, anyways!)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, those are all the same model with different animations. One model for each of the five lifeforms, each with several animations to cover all of the idle states and attack animations. However, the idle animations are not really long animations. They're only twelve frames (not sure how long these frames last, I think it may be based on 30 FPS with animation smoothing for higher FPS) long, and SHOULD be infinitely looped until an attack or switching away. If it eventually cycles back to a different animation, that's a bug.
If you're having problems with telling what weapon you have out, search the customization forums and whatever customization sites you know of (I reccommend <a href='http://www.thrill2kill.com/' target='_blank'>T2K</a> or <a href='http://www.nsarmslab.com/' target='_blank'>NS Arms Lab</a>) and look for replacement models. I'm not sure how many alien weapon models they have, but it would be a great idea to search for crosshairs, namely the leap and xenocide crosshairs that are floating about somehwere.
*EDIT* By the way, I won't say anything about NS: Source. The mods are kinda trigger-happy about keeping rumors to a minimum. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In reality, there's a weapon limit in the heavily modified Q1-engine HL is based on. This was not imposed by Valve because of sysreq considerations, it's simply in place because the engine starts becoming unstable if more weapons are being implemented. Don't ask me about the technological details, when it comes to coding, I'm a gimp.
Now, this limit is <i>not reached</i> by NS. We've still got four empty slots, if I remember correctly. The resulting argument goes along the following lines:<ul><li>The amount of weapons we may implement is limited.</li><li>Every weapon inculsion adds another variable parameter to the already highly difficult balance of the game.</li><li>Thus, every inclusion should count.</li><li><i>Thus</i>, a new weapon would have to play a damn interesting role in NS' gameplay.</li></ul>This is why we don't see many additions - some alien abilities are swapped or replaced, but there are no real 'additions' (until someone gets the flamethrower to work as desired).
To re-iterate, Valve is <i>not</i> at fault here in any way whatsoever.
<span style='color:white'><b>Attention! Grendel used something called <i>sacrasm</i>. Further informations can be found <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm' target='_blank'>here</a>.</b></span>
Could get damn interesting if it had a scope and 10-power magnification... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<i>edit: and kill an Onos in one shot.</i>
<i>edit edit: Oh, I get it... you mean a molecular-sized rifle? That'd be pretty interesting, too. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--></i>
Could get damn interesting if it had a scope and 10-power magnification... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<i>edit: and kill an Onos in one shot.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
GG Combat.
I can't tell the difference between the Fade's Blink and Metabolize weaponmodels. The skulk's idle jaw is no different between firing parasites and biting people.
But isn't it just easier to have seperate weapon models for every alien weapon? Doesn't having Stomp and Charge and Gore grouped into separate weapon categorys on the hud count towards your overall weapon limit anyways?
Someone please enlighten me. What's the deal with weapons in NS? Obviously they took shortcuts, but where and how?
Will it be different if we see an NS: Source? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK the deal with the alien viewmodels is to do with consistency (not mp_consistency). Basically the Aliens are the weapons. It is easier to make 1 viewmodel & use seperate animations for the 4 "weapons" which the alien can use since the viewmodel is meant to represent the alien using a part of its anatomy to perform the "attack" and it makes it a hell of a lot easier if they only have to model one thing & then animate it for the 4 "weapons".
I think you are mixing up with viewmodels with the engines weapons though.
The engine has a limit of 32 weapons max IIRC. This goes for any mod. Weapon means each thing you can select in the weapon menus as any class, doesn't matter if it fires or whatever. The model is just what you see on your screen (did used to be able to remove it using r_drawviewmodel 0 however it was easily abusable)
There is one possible way that the 32 weapon limit might be gotten around but it would require some really uber leet coding. Since no weapon in NS uses a 2ndary fire (+attack2 isn't even bindable in the menu and if you manually bind it, it does nothing) the alien weapons could be combined to be primary and secondary fire of the same weapon. If it was possible to code it, in theory all 5 alien classes could be cut down to using 2 engine weapons each but still having 4 abilities which would free up 10 engine weapons (enough to create 3 or 4 more alien classes and add some more marine stuff too!).
<b>I'd like to point out that I am not saying add secondary fires to weapons/abilities since someone will obviously assume this without reading properly and go on to create a long and pointless discussion.</b>
If NS goes on the Source Engine then its likely that there will be a much higher engine weapon limit or possibly even uncapped. I'd expect 64 as a minimum possibly even 128 or 256.
8 bits in a byte, 4x8 = 32
Is it 2, 4, 8 or what?
Secondary and tertiary fire baby. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You could code +attack2 to cycle between however different fire modes you could think of for each weapon which might be workable for the aliens aswell.
THX
<a href='http://www.planethalflife.com/hlprogramming/tutorial.asp?i=215' target='_blank'>there is sometimes even a way to cheat the system</a>
but what you mentioned was the idle animations of the models, this is being handled by the singular model used for the aliens point of view (v_ model)
yes, they are absent of idle animations... or technically, there are empty idle animations, where the models do not even move.
imagine if you were a skulk and the teeth never STOPPED moving... wouldn't that be worse?
in fact, you can make it this way... if you want instructions on how to do that, PM me... i'll inform you on how it can be done.
but for me, i prefer how the system calls forward the idle1 animation more than any of the others... i do not wish my v_ models to be constantly moving, it is un-needed movements.
as for knowing which weapon you have out... there is a unique thing that the human brain does... it's called "memory" wher you can store information... you might want to learn more about that one... if that fails, there is a technique called "redundancy".... even if you know you've got bite open... hit it again.
<span style='color:blue'>Did you mean: <u><i>sarcasm</i></u>.</span>
Sorry to google quote <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.planethalflife.com/hlprogramming/tutorial.asp?i=215' target='_blank'>there is sometimes even a way to cheat the system</a>
but what you mentioned was the idle animations of the models, this is being handled by the singular model used for the aliens point of view (v_ model)
yes, they are absent of idle animations... or technically, there are empty idle animations, where the models do not even move.
imagine if you were a skulk and the teeth never STOPPED moving... wouldn't that be worse?
in fact, you can make it this way... if you want instructions on how to do that, PM me... i'll inform you on how it can be done.
but for me, i prefer how the system calls forward the idle1 animation more than any of the others... i do not wish my v_ models to be constantly moving, it is un-needed movements.
as for knowing which weapon you have out... there is a unique thing that the human brain does... it's called "memory" wher you can store information... you might want to learn more about that one... if that fails, there is a technique called "redundancy".... even if you know you've got bite open... hit it again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, i understand that, yes, we can use our memories to remember what weapons we have selected. Myself, i have a five-button mouse, and three of them are bound to slots 1-3 with a key for slot four right on the keyboard. I don't even use the 1234 keys. Why? I'm a lefty. I use IKJL instead of WSAD.
So i don't even use the previnv key. But none the less, i'd love to have some visual notifiers of what weapons i'm using. Someone said i should get some custom crosshairs for all the weapons, and i've done that. Thanks a lot, Semi-Psychotic.
Now, the question is, is the same viewmodel animation used for BOTH blink and metabolise on the fade? I know he holds his claws the same for both weapons, but the question remains. Because if the animations are the same but separate, what's to stop me from going in there and reanimating them so that they look better?
As to the Onos, all of his animations cycleback to the Single-Horn Idle for whatever weapon i select. The extra horns that appear with Stomp and Charge disappear suddenly if i leave them alone (don't attack). But when i DO attack, they reappear.
So, what's up with that?
As to NS:S, as i understand it, the boxed version of HL2 (maybe the extended edition) will include a copy of Valve's version of the Hammer editor they used for HL2, and that with that copy of Hammer and other tools included in the package, it'll be insanely easy for people to convert existing mods over to the Source engine. Because of that, i think Unknown Worlds might actually be forced to do a port of NS to the source engine just to keep a thousand fan-made NS ports popping up. I dunno, what'cha think about that?
PS: you guys have been really supportive and informative. I was fully expecting a vicious flurry of "OMG THE FOHRUMS HVAE A SEARCH FUNKSHUN, UISE IT!1" posts.
Danke.