Where It All Goes Wrong...
Necrosis
The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">A retrospect look at NS Veil...</div>
Ok, semi fresh from a game on a moderately reputable pub server, even teams, moderately even skill level.
Starts out like any other Veil game, rines push topo and skylights. The alien counter, however, is devastating and pushes the rines back into spawn.. where they remain virtually until endgame.
How did aliens manage to lock down a 10 man squad of armour/weapon upgraded rines with MT? Here's how I think it happened, with some helpful tips for commanders and players who don't like things going wrong.
If you look at the attached pic, you'll see a subsection of Veil. Not too detailed but has most of the parts we need to refer to.
A "Block Point" is somewhere where the marines can stand to block any passing Skulk or Fade. You will note there are very few potential chokes.. this is because an EFFECTIVE choke point halts all movement, and few points on the map will effectively bar the movement of a Fade.
Herein lies the Principle. The Principle is, do not engage fades unless the situation is favourable - in many cases, this means places where they will clip a marine and get stuck, filled full of LMG rounds, and promptly die. Block points are the key parts of this. You need a cramped tight corridor with a low roof, no cover, and no side vents. This gives the Fade/Skulk few options, and makes it easy fodder for most marines.
In some Veil games, people minibase Topo. This is probably inadvisable as it is EASILY bypassed in one fell swoop, and unless severely turreted most skulks will be able to hide in the "ditch" surrounding the RT platform. In the game we played, a Lerk spored the exit to Topo and forced the marines inside. With no turrets, and no medspam, the lerk crippled any advance, and allowed a rush of skulks to easily penetrate Topo. Had the lerk been pushed back to East Junction, chances are that the skulks would have been annihilated as they entered the area.
On the other side of the map we see West Skylights, a nice location but unfortunately with a vent. To hold West Skylights one would need marines positioned at its block point, which allows LOS to Sat Feed as well as the Skylight vent. The roof is high, but the room is small, so flying Fades again suffer from predictable trajectories. To full secure Skylights, you need to push to the Overlook, as this removes the vent from the equation. It also removes the need for a minibase in west skylights, and instead West Junction would be a viable spot for a minibase.
West Junction is a horrendous hole in any defence. Undefended, it leaves a path open to marine spawn, and it also allows aliens to come into the Overlook area behind any marine advance to Sub Sector Hive. Due to its two tier nature, both Overlook and West Junction are bad places to defend. Overlook does however afford an excellent view of the corridor running south into Sub, and this is a GREAT place to lockdown aliens if Sub is their hive.
In our game we were trapped in spawn until a drastic rush pushed us out into West Skylights. Using the blocking system we managed to clear out a fade, and successfully pushed into Overlook. Here's where it all went wrong - Aliens came in from West Junction, as well as Sub Sector. The two tier part of West Junction allowed them some cover against marine fire, and as marines ran up into West Junction they were dissected piecemeal due to the extreme close quarters of the area (lots of railings and pillars, a skulk haven). Overlook became isolated, marines did NOT push out, and when the Fades arrived they promptly wiped out the fledgling advance.
How could we have corrected this? By using the block point IN Overlook, and the corridor immediately due East. Mobility is severely hampered, and would have made defence that much more easy.
We DID create a minibase in Sub Sector Hive, what caused its downfall was the EARLIER infiltration of West Junction, as well as Lerks in the vents due east of subsector hive. Spore spam kept the area suppressed, and without West Junction there was no way to prevent reinforcement to the area. The base collapsed, we retreated to spawn, and remained there until the breakout described previous.
Why staying in spawn killed us - Take a moment to look around MCI. Its fairly high ceiling, its got a honking great wall directly infront of the CC. What does this mean? Fades blink in from one entrance, behind the wall, taking a few ticks of regeneration, before blinking back out. Its impossible to hamper their movement. Another example would be Refinery Hive, in Bast. Ever tried to catch a JPer or Fade there? Almost impossible.
How did we break out of MS? The block point to the immediate left. No alien could enter the corridor, and when they retreated to regenerate we surged forward. Ditto Sat Feed. And then, as described above, the marines fragmented and were easily countered.
So, lessons for the future - if you see early fades, try and make use of block points. Many MANY threads are devoted to this subject. React quickly! Its easy to tell marines to hold a corridor - nearly all corridors are block points AND by staying there you can spam them with meds/ammo and have a brief respite to form a plan. What killed our team was a lack of coordination when the fades hit, and MS turned into a shooting gallery. While Fades distracted, skulks killed.. and sometimes the Fades would get lucky and tag a rine. If we'd rushed the block point and HELD, the aliens would not have gained such a decisive lead, and within 2 minutes we would have been able to take Overlook, before pushing into West Junction. From this position Nano Grid can be seiged, rushes put into Sub and Cargo, etc. It also holds a full 1/3 of the map, expanding to 1/2 once the SubSector vents can be guarded.
Anyhow, hope it helps you comms out there. I didn't comm this game, and to be honest it would have been a tough task for any comm, but my breakout worked, so I can't complain, lol.
Comments and tips welcome, it all seems fairly sound to me, although there was some disagreement amongst team members.
Ok, semi fresh from a game on a moderately reputable pub server, even teams, moderately even skill level.
Starts out like any other Veil game, rines push topo and skylights. The alien counter, however, is devastating and pushes the rines back into spawn.. where they remain virtually until endgame.
How did aliens manage to lock down a 10 man squad of armour/weapon upgraded rines with MT? Here's how I think it happened, with some helpful tips for commanders and players who don't like things going wrong.
If you look at the attached pic, you'll see a subsection of Veil. Not too detailed but has most of the parts we need to refer to.
A "Block Point" is somewhere where the marines can stand to block any passing Skulk or Fade. You will note there are very few potential chokes.. this is because an EFFECTIVE choke point halts all movement, and few points on the map will effectively bar the movement of a Fade.
Herein lies the Principle. The Principle is, do not engage fades unless the situation is favourable - in many cases, this means places where they will clip a marine and get stuck, filled full of LMG rounds, and promptly die. Block points are the key parts of this. You need a cramped tight corridor with a low roof, no cover, and no side vents. This gives the Fade/Skulk few options, and makes it easy fodder for most marines.
In some Veil games, people minibase Topo. This is probably inadvisable as it is EASILY bypassed in one fell swoop, and unless severely turreted most skulks will be able to hide in the "ditch" surrounding the RT platform. In the game we played, a Lerk spored the exit to Topo and forced the marines inside. With no turrets, and no medspam, the lerk crippled any advance, and allowed a rush of skulks to easily penetrate Topo. Had the lerk been pushed back to East Junction, chances are that the skulks would have been annihilated as they entered the area.
On the other side of the map we see West Skylights, a nice location but unfortunately with a vent. To hold West Skylights one would need marines positioned at its block point, which allows LOS to Sat Feed as well as the Skylight vent. The roof is high, but the room is small, so flying Fades again suffer from predictable trajectories. To full secure Skylights, you need to push to the Overlook, as this removes the vent from the equation. It also removes the need for a minibase in west skylights, and instead West Junction would be a viable spot for a minibase.
West Junction is a horrendous hole in any defence. Undefended, it leaves a path open to marine spawn, and it also allows aliens to come into the Overlook area behind any marine advance to Sub Sector Hive. Due to its two tier nature, both Overlook and West Junction are bad places to defend. Overlook does however afford an excellent view of the corridor running south into Sub, and this is a GREAT place to lockdown aliens if Sub is their hive.
In our game we were trapped in spawn until a drastic rush pushed us out into West Skylights. Using the blocking system we managed to clear out a fade, and successfully pushed into Overlook. Here's where it all went wrong - Aliens came in from West Junction, as well as Sub Sector. The two tier part of West Junction allowed them some cover against marine fire, and as marines ran up into West Junction they were dissected piecemeal due to the extreme close quarters of the area (lots of railings and pillars, a skulk haven). Overlook became isolated, marines did NOT push out, and when the Fades arrived they promptly wiped out the fledgling advance.
How could we have corrected this? By using the block point IN Overlook, and the corridor immediately due East. Mobility is severely hampered, and would have made defence that much more easy.
We DID create a minibase in Sub Sector Hive, what caused its downfall was the EARLIER infiltration of West Junction, as well as Lerks in the vents due east of subsector hive. Spore spam kept the area suppressed, and without West Junction there was no way to prevent reinforcement to the area. The base collapsed, we retreated to spawn, and remained there until the breakout described previous.
Why staying in spawn killed us - Take a moment to look around MCI. Its fairly high ceiling, its got a honking great wall directly infront of the CC. What does this mean? Fades blink in from one entrance, behind the wall, taking a few ticks of regeneration, before blinking back out. Its impossible to hamper their movement. Another example would be Refinery Hive, in Bast. Ever tried to catch a JPer or Fade there? Almost impossible.
How did we break out of MS? The block point to the immediate left. No alien could enter the corridor, and when they retreated to regenerate we surged forward. Ditto Sat Feed. And then, as described above, the marines fragmented and were easily countered.
So, lessons for the future - if you see early fades, try and make use of block points. Many MANY threads are devoted to this subject. React quickly! Its easy to tell marines to hold a corridor - nearly all corridors are block points AND by staying there you can spam them with meds/ammo and have a brief respite to form a plan. What killed our team was a lack of coordination when the fades hit, and MS turned into a shooting gallery. While Fades distracted, skulks killed.. and sometimes the Fades would get lucky and tag a rine. If we'd rushed the block point and HELD, the aliens would not have gained such a decisive lead, and within 2 minutes we would have been able to take Overlook, before pushing into West Junction. From this position Nano Grid can be seiged, rushes put into Sub and Cargo, etc. It also holds a full 1/3 of the map, expanding to 1/2 once the SubSector vents can be guarded.
Anyhow, hope it helps you comms out there. I didn't comm this game, and to be honest it would have been a tough task for any comm, but my breakout worked, so I can't complain, lol.
Comments and tips welcome, it all seems fairly sound to me, although there was some disagreement amongst team members.
Comments
...but the well oiled machine was shattered by nothing more substantial than a one hive fade. Discipline and coordination vanished as we all clustered in spawn trying to shoot down flying fades. Its a good example of how an unexpected attack can cripple even the best of pub teams.
Hopefully in the future everyone will a be a bit wiser to it, and we won't end up clustered in spawn using LMGs in a futile effort to hit one of the fastest moving objects in the game.
Sounds like a base case of aim to me. No offense necrosis, but veil is a <b>HUGELY</b> marine baised map. In clan games usually marines walk all over aliens in this map.
I feel like playing a game of Viel now. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Welders weren't the problem, not with LA rines. Moving out was no problem.. it was keeping it cohesive. The chain of command collapsed.. some rines did push out, but they would split up, or a few marines would try to consolidate and hold, but then get yelled at by everyone else for not continuing the breakout.
Quotes such as:
"WTH you should be rushing with that shotty, not staying back in there" while some marines tried to hold a block point.
"This is NS, there's no such thing as overstretching or consolidating"
IMHO the problem was clearly a tactical one.
We did have shotties, and it was mid tech LMGs and Shotties on LA rines. I agree LMG blocks aren't the greatest but the bulk of the squad had LMGs, so what are you gonna do. Additionally, if the marines had been blocking at any of the above points, chances are no fade would have got *into* base... lmg or no, if a fade gets stuck on a marine and 5 shooters tear into him, then he's not leaving the room alive.
A single one hive fade, and some skulks, in an initial rush, followed by two fades, eventually followed by Onos.
Forlorn: Aim wasn't an issue, the skulks were easily dealt with. The big crippler was that MS is huuuuge in Veil, and the Fades could blink behind the middle wall, then blink out, drawing a bucket load of fire. And if the opportunity arose, they could blink in and snag a marine or two. The fades were very good, spending a lot of time crouched in the middle of the air. Rines didn't push out because it was a pub, we were all caught short, and the chaos over voicecomm was seriously disorientating.
Chaos on a team is much much less of an issue for a decent clan match, I'm sure you'll agree.
My Veil diatribe about lerks, etc. is more a side note - telling you why you need to watch those vents. We didn't see any lerks in our game until the end, and even then it was just spore spam, nothing special.
I agree wholeheartedly about high fade skill, these people knew what they were doing, but if we'd taken a block point then chance/luck alone would have snagged the fades, and without them we would have stomped all over the aliens (as we had done up until the aforementioned one hive fade base rush).
Just make sure to take the fight to the aliens. If you let the aliens fight you on their own terms, they will win in the war of attrition. You have to have oushed out far before the aliens get fades. If your marines can't even push far against only skulks ( and marines have advantages early game) then the game is already lost.
IMO veil is too small of a map, very well lit, and alot of open hallways, making it terrible for aliens. Add in the fact that if your hive is pipe or subsector, marines are just a small walk away from being outside your hive with little effort really. There are no real blind corners, or good places for aliens, of course, due to alot of the lighting increase for almost all the maps, its extreamly hard for aliens to sit in wait for an ambush.
Of equal skill, your team should have dominated the aliens with ease. Equal skill will almost always mean marine victory.
As you said, one hive1 fade took down your marines, then your team isnt very handy with a shotgun, cause just 1, and 2 lmgers, you can keep a fade at bay very easily, add in a couple med packs, you're golden.
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Nope, team diced everything else which came into MS with their shotties. The problem was the fade blinking up to the ceiling and zipping around it. Its not a *very* high roof but its enough to give the fade the mobility it needs.
However IF we have been outside base, he'd have been toast.. which in face he was, when we pushed into Skylight. However at that point the team fragmented and they could just pick us off again. Not an aim issue, not a skill issue, just a lack of coordination.
marines were owning everything that came there way... and then... something went wrong... o so terribly wrong...
due to the comm seeming to have a fobia of building arms labs, we didnt have upgrades, and suprise suprise what shows up! a res ****ing fade with regen thats what!!!
marines got him after he had wiped out like half the marine team while trying to push for the rt and hive, with supprestion of lmg and pistols... after the fade poped his head into the kill's list, the comm decided that an arms lab would be a gud idea at the time...
we get 2 arms labs and all upgrades pretty quick in ns terms (as fast as it could be as comm liked to keep his res lol) and suddenly the comm is like (not in his own words) " uhh guys... we have lost the pg's to the hives..." and well guess what, he wernt the only res **** ppl, o no.... 3 fades suddenly rear their ugly heads in a hive clearing operations and before we manage to take 1 of em down, i hear skulks screaming and flying through air... now the other fades were gud, but now that they had the ability to get cara and meta there armour bak after every attack, it was near impossible to get push on hives...
so there u have it, not all res **** are ur enemys... they managed to turn the tide of the whole worlds sea's in praportion to the amazing comeback they managed to pull off...
the moral of the story? higher lifeforms and vanilla marines are very different things... and 1 always wipes the floor with the other...
btw yes this was kinda off-topic but to hell with it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
without higher life forms in the early-mid stages of a game a half decent marine team can tear through skulks and they will take down your nodes which renders your temping usleess.
unless if none of your team kept a single res point to themselves and oced up choke points etc.
you guys can call what you will but it still wins games.