64=65

2

Comments

  • panda_de_malheureuxpanda_de_malheureux Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24775Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Tequila+Jul 12 2004, 12:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tequila @ Jul 12 2004, 12:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Infinitum+Jul 11 2004, 11:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Infinitum @ Jul 11 2004, 11:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All this proves is math is flawed~ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And boring. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Seconded.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-handeh+Jul 11 2004, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (handeh @ Jul 11 2004, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy Silverfish+Jul 11 2004, 07:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Billy Silverfish @ Jul 11 2004, 07:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-handeh+Jul 11 2004, 12:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (handeh @ Jul 11 2004, 12:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    Lets take the following theorem: Between any two different numbers A and B there is always a number C. (I use "number" here to simplify because i don't know the english words.. racional numbers? not sure). Anyway, let's take A and B as A=1 and B=0.(9). So what's the number C between then? What's the number between 1 and 0.(9)? There is none. So A and B cannot be different numbers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is some very dubious reasoning.There is a number C between those two values, 0.(0)1. For every new 9 you add to your dicimal, I could add a zero to mine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    errr what?

    0.(0)1 is not between 1 and 0.(9)..

    For example, 0.0001 is close to zero, while 0.9999 is close to 1.

    I don't get your point.

    Besides.. "for every new 9 you add to your decimal i could add a zero to mine".. what? I understand what you mean, but noone's adding nines and zeros.. 0.(9) has infinite nines, therefore being = 1 and 0.(0)1 has infinite zeros, therefore being = 0 (you can proof this last statment using the above theorem)

    And to those who are going to say, like i've seen before, "this is a filosophical question"please don't bother.

    And to those who keep saying "you can never reach infinity", you are wrong. But ask anyone how much is lim 1/x, x->+infinity. Anyone who knows anything about this will tell you it's exactly zero, not almost zero. So the point is, altho you cannot find a number x so that 1/x = 0, lim 1/x, x->+infinity *IS* zero. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    he meant 1-0.(0)1

    if you want a number between 1 and 0.(9) well that number is 0.(9)9 (ant WTH is that notation?)

    a series DOESN'T HAVE to reach its limit to have one. In this case, 9/10^n never reaches its limit.

    I'll repeat once again: You CAN ALWAYS find a number closer to 1 than 0.(9). Just add a 9. You can add these nines forever, you'll never reach 1, no matter how far you go (even the infinity).
  • BogglesteinskyBogglesteinsky Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11488Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->64=65, Not allowed to disagree<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Watch me.

    64 != 65

    There you go.

    The 65th square is between the diagonals.
  • handehhandeh Join Date: 2004-06-27 Member: 29566Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-FireStorm+Jul 11 2004, 08:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireStorm @ Jul 11 2004, 08:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-handeh+Jul 11 2004, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (handeh @ Jul 11 2004, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy Silverfish+Jul 11 2004, 07:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Billy Silverfish @ Jul 11 2004, 07:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-handeh+Jul 11 2004, 12:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (handeh @ Jul 11 2004, 12:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    Lets take the following theorem: Between any two different numbers A and B there is always a number C. (I use "number" here to simplify because i don't know the english words.. racional numbers? not sure). Anyway, let's take A and B as A=1 and B=0.(9). So what's the number C between then? What's the number between 1 and 0.(9)? There is none. So A and B cannot be different numbers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is some very dubious reasoning.There is a number C between those two values, 0.(0)1. For every new 9 you add to your dicimal, I could add a zero to mine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    errr what?

    0.(0)1 is not between 1 and 0.(9)..

    For example, 0.0001 is close to zero, while 0.9999 is close to 1.

    I don't get your point.

    Besides.. "for every new 9 you add to your decimal i could add a zero to mine".. what? I understand what you mean, but noone's adding nines and zeros.. 0.(9) has infinite nines, therefore being = 1 and 0.(0)1 has infinite zeros, therefore being = 0 (you can proof this last statment using the above theorem)

    And to those who are going to say, like i've seen before, "this is a filosophical question"please don't bother.

    And to those who keep saying "you can never reach infinity", you are wrong. But ask anyone how much is lim 1/x, x->+infinity. Anyone who knows anything about this will tell you it's exactly zero, not almost zero. So the point is, altho you cannot find a number x so that 1/x = 0, lim 1/x, x->+infinity *IS* zero. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    he meant 1-0.(0)1

    if you want a number between 1 and 0.(9) well that number is 0.(9)9 (ant WTH is that notation?)

    a series DOESN'T HAVE to reach its limit to have one. In this case, 9/10^n never reaches its limit.

    I'll repeat once again: You CAN ALWAYS find a number closer to 1 than 0.(9). Just add a 9. You can add these nines forever, you'll never reach 1, no matter how far you go (even the infinity). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You do reach infinity, that's what the "lim x->+infinity" means..

    But seriously i quit arguing with you. Go learn some maths and then we'll talk.
  • handehhandeh Join Date: 2004-06-27 Member: 29566Members
    edited July 2004
    And abou the notation

    0.(9) means zero dot infitine nines. Note: INFINITE nines.. so there's no number between 1 and 0.(9). Saying 0.(9)9 is putting another 9 at the end of an infinite series of nines. But an infinite series of nines as no end (from the definition of infinity), hence 0.(9)9 does not exist.

    Actually, now that i think about it i'd like to correct a mistake i think i've made when i sais 0.(0)1 = 0. In fact i think 0.(0)1 doesn't make sense.

    So the point is.. you can't put a 9 at the end of those infinite nines..

    But like i said, this is my last post on the subject, because clearly talking about this to some people is like talking to my chair.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    you don't reach infinity, if you'd reach it the "lim" notation wouldn't be useful as you could just let x=infinity.

    anyway I don't think I have to learn more maths to proove something such an obvious thing.

    (BTW I'm doing engineering studies... I know maths well enough)
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-handeh+Jul 11 2004, 02:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (handeh @ Jul 11 2004, 02:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And abou the notation

    0.(9) means zero dot infitine nines. Note: INFINITE nines.. so there's no number between 1 and 0.(9). Saying 0.(9)9 is putting another 9 at the end of an infinite series of nines. But an infinite series of nines as no end (from the definition of infinity), hence 0.(9)9 does not exist.

    Actually, now that i think about it i'd like to correct a mistake i think i've made when i sais 0.(0)1 = 0. In fact i think 0.(0)1 doesn't make sense.

    So the point is.. you can't put a 9 at the end of those infinite nines..

    But like i said, this is my last post on the subject, because clearly talking about this to some people is like talking to my chair. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    if it has infinite nines, there's no limit at the number of nines you can put on it. so you can still add nines.

    remeber the infinity is an ABSTRACT notion
  • handehhandeh Join Date: 2004-06-27 Member: 29566Members
    The reason why you can't put x=infinity is because infinity is not a number.

    If you think something false is obviously true then you do need to study some more.

    BTW i'm studying physics and my experience tells me that the knowledge of mathematics from engeneering students is really low.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    perhaps in your country <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • docchimpydocchimpy Join Date: 2003-07-19 Member: 18266Members
    Dammit, people! It's called the Discussion forum! Take your logic and mathematical theorems there! THIS IS OFF TOPIC. For lighter things. This thread would fare much better in the discussion forums, where all the people who care about this stuff look.
  • handehhandeh Join Date: 2004-06-27 Member: 29566Members
    However, if you really care to know the correct answer to what we're discussing i suggest that when you go back to your school you ask any math teacher/student, and you'll see what they say. Then try to picture me pointing at you laughing.

    And when I said engeneering students usually don't know much about maths, i meant when compared to a physics/maths student, not when compared to high schools kids. Because I'm sure you know more maths than most people here, altho somehow managed to misunderstand the elementar concept of infinity.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    well tbh the discussion forum has fewer visits.
    and yeah we're going off topic in an off topic forum... this topic was meant to show this geometry paradox.
  • SurgeSurge asda4a3sklflkgh Join Date: 2002-07-14 Member: 944Members
    There is <b>nothing</b> in that image to prove that the triangles or the quadrilaterals are the same size. Point INVALID.
  • handehhandeh Join Date: 2004-06-27 Member: 29566Members
    It's not actually a paradox.. Its more an apparent paradox, since nothing is really wrong, other than people assuming that the second picture actually has 65 squares.
  • SurgeSurge asda4a3sklflkgh Join Date: 2002-07-14 Member: 944Members
    edited July 2004
    The squares do nothing to prove it. Give me something using more geometric shapes. Use angles and variables to prove it to me. Also, the slivers are off. You <b>CAN'T have an accurate geometric design based on sight</b>. It HAS to be numbers.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    edited July 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-handeh+Jul 11 2004, 03:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (handeh @ Jul 11 2004, 03:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ask any math teacher/student, and you'll see what they say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well here's the opinion of a math student (I've just cleared his name, I don't know if he wants to get listed on here - he didn't post in this thread yet)

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:24] <B> 1 = 1
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:27] <B> nothing else = 1
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:37] <C> right
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:48] <C> who here is doing a maths degree?
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:51] <C> oh, it's me
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    btw I understand what infinity is <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->


    Surge: look at my post above... it's proven
  • SurgeSurge asda4a3sklflkgh Join Date: 2002-07-14 Member: 944Members
    edited July 2004
    You may be a math student, but that doesn't stop you from being an idiot. The fact is, 65 does NOT equal 64, the image is not accurate enough. If such was true, it would invalidate all we know as reality.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Surge+Jul 11 2004, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Surge @ Jul 11 2004, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You may be a math student, but that doesn't stop you from being an idiot. The fact is, 65 does NOT equal 64, the image is not accurate enough. If such was true, it would invalidate all we know as reality. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    *SIGH*

    I've proved above that there's a difference in the angle of these triangels... here it is:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2/5 - 3/8 = 1/40

    there's a small difference, but there is one, therefore there's a little space between the triangles.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Next time don't call people idiots before you read what they say.
  • SurgeSurge asda4a3sklflkgh Join Date: 2002-07-14 Member: 944Members
    edited July 2004
    It's a <i>picture</i> without the use of any opposite angles or anything else to show besides someone's word, you're an idiot.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    edited July 2004
    oh my god... there are two possiblilities:
    - I misunderstood what you mean in your very last post
    OR
    - You're a retard

    there's adifference between the slopes. that's what I said.

    look:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->> evalf(tan(2/5));

                              0.4227932187

    > evalf(tan(3/8));

                              0.3936265759

    > evalf((tan(2/5)-tan(3/8))*180/Pi);

                              1.671125535

    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    the difference between the angles is 1.6 degrees, therefore there's a space between the triangles....
    so... The picture is false! That's what I mean!

    BTW this is turning into a flame war, I suggest a mod to lock it
  • sheena_yanaisheena_yanai Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Members
    edited July 2004
    @surge

    second that.. and now someone close this bull...
    even when you get to infinity you will never reach 1, never.. the gap between both would just get infinite small.. but it would never will make the jump to 1 because of this infinite small gap.... infinite = never.. so it never changes to 1
  • handehhandeh Join Date: 2004-06-27 Member: 29566Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-FireStorm+Jul 11 2004, 09:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireStorm @ Jul 11 2004, 09:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-handeh+Jul 11 2004, 03:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (handeh @ Jul 11 2004, 03:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ask any math teacher/student, and you'll see what they say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well here's the opinion of a math student (I've just cleared his name, I don't know if he wants to get listed on here - he didn't post in this thread yet)

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:24] <B> 1 = 1
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:27] <B> nothing else = 1
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:37] <C> right
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:48] <C> who here is doing a maths degree?
    [15:55] <A> [14:18:51] <C> oh, it's me
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    btw I understand what infinity is <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->


    Surge: look at my post above... it's proven <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Geez.. that's bad, because seriously he doesn't know much either.

    Or you can interpretate it in another way: nothing else = 1... but since 0.(9) = 1, 0.(9) is not anything else.. hehe just joking.

    Anyway, I dunno what else to said. Just out of curiosity, are you in the same school?
  • handehhandeh Join Date: 2004-06-27 Member: 29566Members
    edited July 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-sheena yanai+Jul 11 2004, 09:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sheena yanai @ Jul 11 2004, 09:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @surge

    second that..  and now someone close this bull... 
    even when you get to infinity you will never reach 1, never..  the gap between both would just get infinite small..  but it would never will make the jump to 1 because of this infinite small gap.... infinite = never..  so it never changes to 1 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Why do people keep saying "you never reach"? You're not walking down the number. We're not moving towards infinity. "reach"? "gap"? "change to 1"? what are you talking about. Certainly not mathematics.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    we're not even in the same country...

    and now tell me... did you take the possibility of being wrong into account? you know... you can't be always right...

    and FYI here's the slope difference:
  • SurgeSurge asda4a3sklflkgh Join Date: 2002-07-14 Member: 944Members
    Except I'm always right. You apparently forgot that. As for locking the topic, why do you keep bloody saying that? Future moderators in making here. That <a href='http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame12.html' target='_blank'>or we have a few certain individuals on our hands</a>.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    I said it once. Only once. You should go to bed now, you seem tired.
  • handehhandeh Join Date: 2004-06-27 Member: 29566Members
    edited July 2004
    I know what you mean, and yeah i'm not always right, but to show that 1 = 0.(9) was one exercise that was asked to be solved in my first term (term=half year?), first year in university.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    you mean semester?

    I've a question: is 0.(9) the number 0.9999 followed by an infinity of nines or is it the limit of that? If it's the limit then it's equal to 1, if not, it's not 1.
    (this notation isn't used in france - I supposed it was the former)
  • I_Gorged_Your_MomI_Gorged_Your_Mom Join Date: 2003-10-01 Member: 21361Banned, Constellation
    And now, just like any good villain in a movie, I will reveal my evil plan.

    You actually think that I believe that 64=65? I just posted that because I like to get people upset and start arguing. Anyway, it more of an optical illusion than it is math. Some of you may understand what happened to the missing square, but thats beside the point.

    I usually like to start a controversial topic with "Not allowed to disagree". It really sets the mood.

    You are all falling into my trap. I did not make this thread to discuss if 64=65. I made it to talk about 1=.99. If you notice, in my first post I had said that everyone agrees that 1=.99. This was bound to upset some people, and make them start talking about that thread instead, which is much more interesting and fun to watch people get angry over.

    Why would I do something like that? Because I have so much free time on my hands that you would be unable to comprehend what goes on in my head.

    Why am I telling you this? Because my HL2 beta download is finished in 9 mins and I thought this would be a good way to pass the time.

    And if you use trigonometry, you can easily see that 64 does not equal 65. Also, if you cut out the squares like I said to, which I knew noone would do, it actually does NOT work out. If you look closely at the picture, or hold a staightedge/ruler against it, youll notice a line is not exactly straight.

    And now, I think it is safe to say that everyone agrees that 64=65, and 1=.<u>99</u>. I means its so obvious I dont even need to say why.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    lol, you evil evil person :]
This discussion has been closed.