Walls And Their [tactical/ballancing] Uses
Maveric
Join Date: 2002-08-07 Member: 1101Members
Join Date: 2002-08-07 Member: 1101Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">In games at least.</div> Something that i've always been interested in in games were walls; or rather the lack of them. No, not "WoL"s, but constructable walls that serve for stragetic purposes... We can look back on strategy games, turn based and real time, and there were often walls in them usually as a part of the scenery; but far less often as something that could be built. An example of a wall used in scenery is a wall in XCOM: UFO Defence - It stands there as if it were a peice of scenery, but it can also be destroyed leading to interesting tactical possibilities. On the opposite side is a constructable wall that one side, or multiple sides, of the strategy game can create. Usually the walls are used to funnel something or to slow something down, and often were just not worth the time or the money to setup nor were they of great tactical importance.
Despite the somewhat obvious uselessness of a wall - seeing as how the enemy can just go around them - some games, even without a actual wall-like building still have something used to act as a wall. StarCraft has probably the best and well-known example of a building being used as a wall: A Terran Bunker sits behind 2-5 Terran Supply Depots -- And this is a bloody effective tactic. But how?
StarCraft's Terran Bunker can hold 4 infantry units, and the only infantry units the Terrans have - that are useful in combat - are the Ghost (Long Range - Late game) Marine (Medium Range - Early game) and the Firebat (Short Range - Early game) . The Terran Supply Depot is used mainly to aquire supply, so that you can build your troops into larger numbers. However, they occupy a 3 by 2 (that's the Horizontal by Vertical) which is IDENTICAL to a bunkers' occupied area. Because of... <i>Something</i> in StarCraft, the supply depot will <i>completely</i> block units when stacked vertically on the screen right next to eachother, but will let units pass of VERY small size - SINGLE FILE - when constructed Horizontally in the same, cramped, way.
This means that if a bunker is surrounded by 6 supply depots (the maximum possible) there are only TWO ways to the bunker for melee units to attack; and even then they'll be in <i>single file</i> for the height of the supply depot on screen. And, because the firebat shoots a very damaging stream of flame this means that all the units in that line will take severe damage. Tactically, the only way to destroy something like this is to assualt it with ranged units - but the other races in StarCraft all start out with melee units and the Firebats, when placed into a bunker, trumps them.
However, the supply depot is not the perfect wall. It has just a little bit more health then the Bunker itself, and less armor as well. On top of this, it cannot fight back and is a double-edged sword; having only two places for units to enter, only two SCVs (the Terrans all-purpose repair/gathering unit) can ever repair the bunker at once and are dead meat if the bunker is fully loaded -- which means they're stuck outside. As well, this entire thing costs ALOT of money to setup; aprox. 700 Minerals, and that isn't including the units.
Then we end up at a game like NS... A FPS/RTS hybrid with nearly nothing to speak of that even slightly reaches the effectiveness of the StarCraft Supply Depot/Bunker would-be wall. It doesn't help that the enviroment is 3D, either. This means that a wall must extend from the floor to the ceiling to the surrounding walls, if it is to be totally effective at blocking off or funneling enemy assualt. And to compound matters even more, one side - the marines - cannot even stack their buildings to achive the 3D effect, as they are always stuck to the ground! However, the aliens can, but their walls are easilly destroyed by the marine's ultimate building trumping cards, the seige cannon and the grenade launcher.
In many maps, there are many hallways that could use walls - not even truely 3D walls - that could inhibit the marine's movements (as trying to inhibit the alien's movements is useless - wall climb, bile bomb, flying, blinking, and the onos all get that evolution past obstacles quickly and easilly) and aid in the cover of aliens from the marine's ranged weapons. Walls, if made properly for the alien team, could weed-out any would-be problems in maps with long corridors like Ayumi as they would shorten and thus REDUCE the marine's ranged effectiveness.
Back to XCOM - there are no buildable walls, and even then most of the walls on a map are very easilly destroyed, requiring nothing more then a grenade or laser/plasma weapon's shot; they're there more for scenery then anything else. However, for what they're worth, they are a very annoying and possibly unballancing aspect of the game, as a alien will often be somewhere within a building (or floating around outside of it... and yes, some aliens in XCOM do float) and will be indestructable... until the wall it is hiding behind is removed, and the unit is revealed. Ironically, what's so useful to the enemy is useless to you; walls inhibit your movement, sight, and sometimes even you combat ability! You are, in fact, better off destroying every building you see on the map then allowing them to stand and be used as cover or something worse - a hidey-hole for the last alien. A even bigger problem is the fact that in Terror missions innocent Civilians will often be within those buildings, awaiting their murder by either: A) The enemy's missiles or B) Your missiles.
Back to StarCraft - There are no "true" walls in starcraft, however, nearly anything can be used as a wall. A line of medics will not be attacked by enemy AI unless they are the only thing there; supply depots will either distract or funnel enemies into the firebats; burrowing/unburrowing zerglings act as a door on a evolution-chamber wall... the amount of variations for walls and their uses in StarCraft is nearly endless; as is the amount of ways to destroy them.
What's your opinion on walls in games, in general? In specifics? Do they belong in games or should they just be thrown out as a "lame" idea/tactic? Could buildable walls in a FPS/RTS hybrid ever "work out"? (Not stating NS specifically here, just stating "could it work for a FPS/RTS hybrid, or other hybrids, in general?")
Sorry for the long read and possible rant-like state of this post... I just felt i had to get it off my mind and onto something else before it caused a melt down, and... Severe damage too all outlying structures. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Despite the somewhat obvious uselessness of a wall - seeing as how the enemy can just go around them - some games, even without a actual wall-like building still have something used to act as a wall. StarCraft has probably the best and well-known example of a building being used as a wall: A Terran Bunker sits behind 2-5 Terran Supply Depots -- And this is a bloody effective tactic. But how?
StarCraft's Terran Bunker can hold 4 infantry units, and the only infantry units the Terrans have - that are useful in combat - are the Ghost (Long Range - Late game) Marine (Medium Range - Early game) and the Firebat (Short Range - Early game) . The Terran Supply Depot is used mainly to aquire supply, so that you can build your troops into larger numbers. However, they occupy a 3 by 2 (that's the Horizontal by Vertical) which is IDENTICAL to a bunkers' occupied area. Because of... <i>Something</i> in StarCraft, the supply depot will <i>completely</i> block units when stacked vertically on the screen right next to eachother, but will let units pass of VERY small size - SINGLE FILE - when constructed Horizontally in the same, cramped, way.
This means that if a bunker is surrounded by 6 supply depots (the maximum possible) there are only TWO ways to the bunker for melee units to attack; and even then they'll be in <i>single file</i> for the height of the supply depot on screen. And, because the firebat shoots a very damaging stream of flame this means that all the units in that line will take severe damage. Tactically, the only way to destroy something like this is to assualt it with ranged units - but the other races in StarCraft all start out with melee units and the Firebats, when placed into a bunker, trumps them.
However, the supply depot is not the perfect wall. It has just a little bit more health then the Bunker itself, and less armor as well. On top of this, it cannot fight back and is a double-edged sword; having only two places for units to enter, only two SCVs (the Terrans all-purpose repair/gathering unit) can ever repair the bunker at once and are dead meat if the bunker is fully loaded -- which means they're stuck outside. As well, this entire thing costs ALOT of money to setup; aprox. 700 Minerals, and that isn't including the units.
Then we end up at a game like NS... A FPS/RTS hybrid with nearly nothing to speak of that even slightly reaches the effectiveness of the StarCraft Supply Depot/Bunker would-be wall. It doesn't help that the enviroment is 3D, either. This means that a wall must extend from the floor to the ceiling to the surrounding walls, if it is to be totally effective at blocking off or funneling enemy assualt. And to compound matters even more, one side - the marines - cannot even stack their buildings to achive the 3D effect, as they are always stuck to the ground! However, the aliens can, but their walls are easilly destroyed by the marine's ultimate building trumping cards, the seige cannon and the grenade launcher.
In many maps, there are many hallways that could use walls - not even truely 3D walls - that could inhibit the marine's movements (as trying to inhibit the alien's movements is useless - wall climb, bile bomb, flying, blinking, and the onos all get that evolution past obstacles quickly and easilly) and aid in the cover of aliens from the marine's ranged weapons. Walls, if made properly for the alien team, could weed-out any would-be problems in maps with long corridors like Ayumi as they would shorten and thus REDUCE the marine's ranged effectiveness.
Back to XCOM - there are no buildable walls, and even then most of the walls on a map are very easilly destroyed, requiring nothing more then a grenade or laser/plasma weapon's shot; they're there more for scenery then anything else. However, for what they're worth, they are a very annoying and possibly unballancing aspect of the game, as a alien will often be somewhere within a building (or floating around outside of it... and yes, some aliens in XCOM do float) and will be indestructable... until the wall it is hiding behind is removed, and the unit is revealed. Ironically, what's so useful to the enemy is useless to you; walls inhibit your movement, sight, and sometimes even you combat ability! You are, in fact, better off destroying every building you see on the map then allowing them to stand and be used as cover or something worse - a hidey-hole for the last alien. A even bigger problem is the fact that in Terror missions innocent Civilians will often be within those buildings, awaiting their murder by either: A) The enemy's missiles or B) Your missiles.
Back to StarCraft - There are no "true" walls in starcraft, however, nearly anything can be used as a wall. A line of medics will not be attacked by enemy AI unless they are the only thing there; supply depots will either distract or funnel enemies into the firebats; burrowing/unburrowing zerglings act as a door on a evolution-chamber wall... the amount of variations for walls and their uses in StarCraft is nearly endless; as is the amount of ways to destroy them.
What's your opinion on walls in games, in general? In specifics? Do they belong in games or should they just be thrown out as a "lame" idea/tactic? Could buildable walls in a FPS/RTS hybrid ever "work out"? (Not stating NS specifically here, just stating "could it work for a FPS/RTS hybrid, or other hybrids, in general?")
Sorry for the long read and possible rant-like state of this post... I just felt i had to get it off my mind and onto something else before it caused a melt down, and... Severe damage too all outlying structures. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
The main game I've played that included walls would be Age of Empires 2 (with or without the expansion).
The walls are actually effective for the first 3 ages. If you can manage to get to the Castle age quickly, a castle defended by a couple of knights becomes an impenetrable fortress for a long time.
Even in the first age, when only palisades can be built, they're quite effective. They take a good minute to knock down, and on black forest maps you can quickly build numerous palisades on all the paths leading to your town center; effectively covering your back until you've advanced. Conversely, it does cost you a villager (or sometimes 2 in black forest maps), along withwood (and eventually stone) to build the walls.
That is, until Trebuchets come along. (thing catapult with a much longer lever arm, thus throwing stuff <i>really</i> far. In game, this translates to indefensible walls and castles; wars basically become land wars between units, opposed to true strategic placement. It turns into a game of 'who can pump out the biggest variety of units'.
There are rams to take care of walls and castles in the early ages, however, they can be killed quickly by knights or swordsmen (basically impenetrable to arrows). And on even scoring games, are mostly in effective.
I blame the lack of technology to create a realistic medieval warfare experience (perhaps medieval war is a better game for the job...but I don't know if you can build castles in that game...or anything). Since In general combat, of equal forces (which was rare), the castle would have the distinct advantage from height. That is, until gun powder game along, and basically made walls obsolete.
If nothing else from medieval warfare the evolution and arms race is pretty interesting.
Basically, walls, do actually have a use in the game, it is just very limited and rarely used. The only time I see practical use of walls would be in FPS, when they can truely inhibit progress. I'm not sure you'll ever find a game that makes decent use of walls though; because it always turns out that Offense is the best Defense...and thus walls are a poor defensive tactic (despite their often useful real world uses (such as in Britain, (unfortunately) Berlin, China/Mongolia (not really exceptional in defense, but structure there).
...what an awkward topic <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
Castles are great in M:TW. There's a reason the computer is reluctant to try an all-out assault; if the numbers are equal, you'll lose. The bigger the castle, the more "layers" and archers inside. Not only that, but the boiling oil is a real killer. You need a good deal of siege weaponry to break a decent sized castle, and it'll still cost you time and space for fighting units.
I've only had the computer try to break in a few times, and only when it had over 10 times the forces I did. Even then, I was able to give them hell. (:<
Castles are great in M:TW. There's a reason the computer is reluctant to try an all-out assault; if the numbers are equal, you'll lose. The bigger the castle, the more "layers" and archers inside. Not only that, but the boiling oil is a real killer. You need a good deal of siege weaponry to break a decent sized castle, and it'll still cost you time and space for fighting units.
I've only had the computer try to break in a few times, and only when it had over 10 times the forces I did. Even then, I was able to give them hell. (:< <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does M:TW have cannons or gunpowder units of any kind?
Since one good sized cannonball hurls with a force that can knock down a tall wall easily - which is why at first walls for castles got taller and taller, and when gunpowder came they got short and very thick.
Of course, lots of times, real wars would attempt to bypass the castle and just sit them out, since castles generally dont have the room to grow anything in the inner courtyard, and stockpiles only last a few weeks (since generally a lord would be obligated to protect his serfs). So you could put a force outside the castle to keep the enemy in, and then just wait them out, while making half-hearted attacks to burn them with lit arrows (since you inevitably have wooden buildings inside, or eventually a magazine filled with gunpowder).
...maybe I should try to find M:TW somewhere.
A) I know where he is
B) I know what he has
C) I can bring a sizeable enough force to bear in order to send him packing.
While late in game the wonderful trebuchet posed a deadly threat to the stone fortresses, a sizeable force of 15-20 units usually proceeded to rape the wooden weapons until they crumbled. The key was always making sure that everything was getting repaired.
Walls can be useful...as long as you don't expect them to be there forever.
7.92 mm goes thru alot of stuff ^^
and 1.xx CC blocking ftw [a point to whomever tells me why]
walls...I'm struggling to think something related to gaming and walls...
*flash of inspiration*
Tower defense!
Making the units go around things that can attack them helps you kill them before they get to your precious square!
Walls belong in strategy games, be they turn based, real time, or first person, because they are a part of real world warfare. Walls have always played a great part in warfare due to their ability to deny the enemy entry to an area simply be their existance. Breaching a wall requires you to overcome a height difference, and any first year ROTC student will tell you the high ground is the place to be compared to your enemy. The problem is once technology reaches a certain point, walls become quite weak. You can either knock them down from range (siege) or go over them (flight). The same applies to strategy games. If someone walls in, find the weakest point and either knock the wall down or go over it. Command and Conquer games are a great example of this. Walls are normally defenses to prevent engineers/spies from entering your base and taking down an important structure when you don't notice them. An easy way to overcome this early game is to simply use a helicopter and fly over the walls, depositing troops to the ground inside the wall. You could also use tanks to batter the walls down and send units through the breach. Walls are a stopgap measure and part of overall defense. You cannot rely on them to be your ONLY defense, or your enemy will exploit that to your disadvantage.
As for this in NS, we have walls in a tactical sense. Anyone that's had the displeasure of being an onos while I'm commanding knows this already. Walls can be used in games to not only deny entry, but to prevent exit. Command and Conquer was another example of this. If an enemy attacked your base and came off on the bad end of a battle, they might try to retreat. A quick wall placement could prevent quick exit, thus resulting in the complete destruction of the retreating force. NS allows for a similar method of exit denial by temporarily blocking the exit of an alien with a well placed marine structure. While called lame by some (Hi Cerebral), it's quite a valid tactic, much in the same way a delayed skulk rush on marine strat is a valid strategy. This is exploiting an enemies inherent weakness. Onos are large and slow, thus slowing them down even more makes them incredibly vulnerable. Most games have a unit or structure capable of dealing incredible damage, but it's weak and/or expensive. You defeat such units by exploiting their weaknesses to the fullest. If the enemy provides a chance to exploit their weakness, you should use it to the fullest. Onos are slow and vulnerable to higher marine tech. If the alien player is willing to risk a large amount of resources on a gambit into a room with many marines, you should exploit his risque.
I find that walls are fairly effective, as long as you don't rely on them to defend you. They are useful, but are only a supplement to alertness.