Read Em And Weep!

RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
edited June 2004 in NS General Discussion
MUWAHAHAH
YOU WANT STATS FOR UNCHAINED CHAMBERS?! YOU GOT STATS!

Games ending with 9 players (330 total):
142 Marine Victories (43%)
188 Alien Victories (57%)

Games ending with 10 players (274 total) :
117 Marine Victories (43%)
157 Alien Victories (57%)

Games ending with 11 players (239 total) :
105 Marine Victories (44%)
134 Alien Victories (56%)

Games ending with 12 players (198 total) :
91 Marine Victories (46%)
107 Alien Victories (54%)

Games ending with 13 players (152 total) :
74 Marine Victories (49%)
78 Alien Victories (51%)

Games ending with 14 players (66 total) :
28 Marine Victories (42%)
38 Alien Victories (58%)

Games ending with anywhere from 9 to 14 players (1259 total cumulative) :
557 Marine Victories (44%)
702 Alien Victories (56%)

Taken RIGHT from the Unchained Chambers server, FROM the admin HIMSELF, after gathering these stats. 150 MORE VICTORIES THEN MARINES?! YOU CALL THAT BULL CRAP FAIR?!
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Comments

  • wallerwaller Join Date: 2004-04-28 Member: 28281Members Posts: 784
    Now do one without un-chained chambers, watch it be even worse wink.gif
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    While the stats do show a definate trend, they are close enough to 50/50 to be acceptable. A little tweaking would need to be done, but it doesn't look like it needs to be anything drastic.
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    And we shall see. I have yet to hear from NSArms lab, so I asked another person today and I hope to god I hear back from them.
  • SaltzBadSaltzBad Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26833Members Posts: 1,276
    Woohoo, a marginal victory percentage for Aliens on a pub server. Thats like really amazingly convincing in an enviroment where 95% of all commanders fail at figuring ou the counters to an Offensive Chamber, and/or marines don't posess the intelligence required for a Phaserush (whereas by force of necessity, most alien teams on pubs tend to do at least a terrible mockup of a clanmatch).

    Its simply natural that marine public teamplay will be on a lower level for the next months to come. Still, unchained chambers doesn't even help the Aliens that much - it gives them the option of planting 15 res SCs (at least currently), but restricts them to 1 upgrade/Hive. The only real tweak is that the observatory and ping cost should be reduced (and MT/PG cost increased to counteract that).
    If I had a million resnodes...

    "The atom bomb will never go off - and I speak as an expert in explosives."
    - U.S. Admiral William Leahy in 1945.
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    Excuses, excuses...

    QUOTE
    Thats like really amazingly convincing in an enviroment where 95% of all commanders fail at figuring ou the counters to an Offensive Chamber, and/or marines don't posess the intelligence required for a Phaserush


    I've been hearing so much of the same CRAP, but this time its different! Oh w00 h00! Everyone used to say "Marines are too good though! New alien players are having a tough time!" now they are saying "Mariens arent intelligent enough to combat aliens! That is why those stats are that way!"

    SHUT THE HELL UP!

    Marginal vicotory, NO! 150 games EXTRA won is NOT fair. Everyone complained about how aliens lost so many times, when this goes to show all it did was boost their win from 50/50 to 45 / 55. 150 wins is a lot, when you think about it. That is a-lot.

    When I get those stats from NSArms Lab, I will see exactly how well unchaining fairs against normal play.
  • wallerwaller Join Date: 2004-04-28 Member: 28281Members Posts: 784
    Methinks it's that time of the month again for recoup....<_<
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    edited June 2004
    I am just SO damned **** at ALL the excuses I have been hearing to make aliens more powerful and marines weaker, and now that I have the evidence that most recent installment has overpowered them, everyone RUSHES TO THE RESCUE to deny everything! mad.gif

    I actually DO my research and dont just accept what I hear. I back up what I say with facts and people hate me for it! So I say, BRING IT ON!
  • wallerwaller Join Date: 2004-04-28 Member: 28281Members Posts: 784
    Look calm down, people realise that it's over powered but it would still be an impovement (spelling) on what it's at now.
    And don't forget this is BETA, we need to test things out like this, and finally, IT'S ONLY A FOOKING GAME, calm it

    user posted image
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    edited June 2004
    MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    TEH COW! pudgy.gif

    I am friggin off the wall because of all the people who thought they were right and I was wrong and just annoying. Well this is IN THEIR FACES!
  • NolSinklerNolSinkler On the Clorf Join Date: 2004-02-15 Member: 26560Members, Constellation Posts: 1,604
    Try other servers...just like many other people have said, many times some people go to specific teams, and they can be very good.

    But, what doesnt make sense to me is that you did 4 vs. 5, 5 vs. 5, 5 vs. 6, 6 vs. 6, 7 vs. 6 and 7 vs. 7...we should go more into the larger and smaller numbers...
    image
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    edited June 2004
    The server only supported 16 players. So sue me. Like I said, I'm getting the NSArms Lab servers, and they support tops... tounge.gif

    I took 20 from the server I play on reguarly, and 10 from NSArms lab since they didnt play combat. The results still came out 50/50. So now I aim at getting 1,300 from NSArms Lab.
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
    QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Jun 29 2004, 01:57 PM)
    Try other servers...just like many other people have said, many times some people go to specific teams, and they can be very good.

    But, what doesnt make sense to me is that you did 4 vs. 5, 5 vs. 5, 5 vs. 6, 6 vs. 6, 7 vs. 6 and 7 vs. 7...we should go more into the larger and smaller numbers...

    While that is wierd, something that people keep failing to believe is- NS WAS NOT MADE FOR HIGH-PLAYER-AMOUNT GAMES. IT WILL NEVER BE FOR 16vs16 GAMES. EVER. MAXIMUM SHOULD BE 8vs8. Its been that way, been said by a lot of people a lot of times(dev team), and is a standard and known thing in the development of NS. Though, he should have gone to 8v8 I think tounge.gif
    image
    __________Artist: asuka111 | The Flood | www.quaunaut.com
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    And another thing: the game was meant to be played by the developers expectations: one chamber per hive. Taking NS into your own hands and trying to balance it, only to throw it off STILL, does not sound like a plan to me.

    Unless you can put up fact, just as I have, then maybe the argument is worth it because so far all I have heard is "Well ya know what? I bet this" or "I know that" or "They probably do this"

    CUT IT OUT
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 920 mod
    Well, to put it mildly, I'm disappointed by the author's tone, as well as his analytic abilities given this data. A thread title more helpful to the community might have been:

    Unchained: 1200 results from one server

    Instead, this looks like one man's response in some silly chicken fight.

    I'm the admin he's referring to, and these statistics were gathered from the logs of the TacticalGamer.com NS server, which is appreciated by many as a very good compromise between public and professional play. From the once-a-week player to CAL-O competitors and commanders coming out of a scrim, our server plays host to regulars with a wide range of skill and a common love for teamwork and coordination. This is EXACTLY the type of server you want data from when evaluating the type of data in this thread's first post.

    These numbers, based on over ONE THOUSAND GAMES, show that Unchained Chambers does NOT hurt balance on our server. We have intelligent marines and intelligent aliens, and the gameplay changes introduced by this plugin have been explored throughly by our regulars.

    Unchained chambers is NOT a threat to balance in Natural Selection. If ANYTHING, these numbers confirm what the rational among us have been claiming since the beginning: tweaks are likely going to be necessary to make the most of unchained, but there's no balance justification for not trying it in an official beta.

    Please focus on the data, and not the way it has been presented. confused.gif

    I specified those players numbers (9-14), not him. NS without at least 9 players (some say higher) is a joke, and our server maxes out at 7v7 (not 8v8, as Recoup claimed; see Quaunaut's comments for general reasoning).

    Recoup, this data means next to nothing when it's only coming from one server. You don't pick up one red lollipop and then scream "HA! I TOLD YOU LOLLIPOPS WERE RED!" You need data from several servers... like... 25 servers, I would think. For goodness sakes man, we have CAL-O fades and skulks playing on this server.... and 1.5 just isn't that great a percentage of 12.

    I thought Recoup's aim when he requested this information from me was to include it with data from SEVERAL other servers. I guess I just assumed that, as one or two server's data doesn't mean much. My mistake, I guess.

    Recoup, these numbers are fact. Your interpretation of them is not. Your interpretation of these numbers is opinion.
    TGNS Portal | NS2 side-by-side game viewer
    IronHorse wrote: »
    TG's win or lose mod that replaces the concede function is the best of both worlds and should be official.
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    Give me another server and I'll have the logs up for that in a week. I get what people recommend, and when people said your server I went there. Where is another unchained chambers server?
  • SleeplessOneSleeplessOne Join Date: 2004-05-25 Member: 28899Members Posts: 7
    You look at the numbers (150 more wins) and you think. Yow, that's bad.

    Then you look at the percentage and realize, it's not really that bad at all.
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 920 mod
    QUOTE (SleeplessOne @ Jun 29 2004, 04:28 PM)
    You look at the numbers (150 more wins) and you think. Yow, that's bad.

    Then you look at the percentage and realize, it's not really that bad at all.

    Precisely.
    TGNS Portal | NS2 side-by-side game viewer
    IronHorse wrote: »
    TG's win or lose mod that replaces the concede function is the best of both worlds and should be official.
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    edited June 2004
    Give me another server and can see if this changes any. biggrin.gif

    How many unchained servers are running, just for the sake of asking.

    I have yet to aquire, however, the stats for a regular NS server, the same player compliment. If it lays out to be 50% to 50% since that matters so much, then you guys threw off what was already a mostly balanced game. If it shows that its leniant towards marines more, then lets start testing this on more servers. If the aliens win more, then we probably shouldnt impliment it.

    All in all, it comes down to the value of the players.

    But my excitement and finger pointing come precisely from the reason that people thought that this idea was better then regular NS and that people who were against it were wrong and stupid and blindsighted. I am a very "in your face" kind of person, so, dont take it as much of a surprise.
  • SaltzBadSaltzBad Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26833Members Posts: 1,276
    edited June 2004
    QUOTE (Recoup @ Jun 29 2004, 03:47 PM)
    Excuses, excuses...

    QUOTE
    Thats like really amazingly convincing in an enviroment where 95% of all commanders fail at figuring ou the counters to an Offensive Chamber, and/or marines don't posess the intelligence required for a Phaserush


    I've been hearing so much of the same CRAP, but this time its different! Oh w00 h00! Everyone used to say "Marines are too good though! New alien players are having a tough time!" now they are saying "Mariens arent intelligent enough to combat aliens! That is why those stats are that way!"

    SHUT THE HELL UP!

    Marginal vicotory, NO! 150 games EXTRA won is NOT fair. Everyone complained about how aliens lost so many times, when this goes to show all it did was boost their win from 50/50 to 45 / 55. 150 wins is a lot, when you think about it. That is a-lot.

    When I get those stats from NSArms Lab, I will see exactly how well unchaining fairs against normal play.

    Public play will always be depedent on circumstance and acclimatisation of the playerbase, not exclusively balance - thats why an average 11% advantage isn't necessarily representative of a balance issue. 150 games means nothing, as its an absolute number.

    Furthermore, the actual win/loss ratio on a public doesn't determine how well balanced the game is, as you've noticed it says nothing about the way games were played. Statistics are indeed worthless at doing anything except in large timeframes and numbers pointing out possible gross inconsistencies. You might still not have figured it out after several people have told you in this thread, but thats not a gross inconsistency.

    And the inability to combat offense chambers rationally is indeed the downfall of 9 out of 10 public games. It costs time and 65 res to do it the irrational way - it costs ~5 res and 20 seconds to take out a swarm of OCs otherwise (or ~40 if you want to just shotgun rush it). If I can get around to it I'll demo you some games to that effect.

    The point remains regardless. Games should be balanced towards playability, and an equality of strengths and counter-strengths, not a perfect average value of wins and any completely arbitrary and stupid measure to uphold that. Come to think of it, didn't you recently post stats on vanilla aliens vs marines that looked almost the same?
    If I had a million resnodes...

    "The atom bomb will never go off - and I speak as an expert in explosives."
    - U.S. Admiral William Leahy in 1945.
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    edited June 2004
    Wasnt the start of this idea the fact that you thought aliens needed to be more powerful? Wasnt that the motivation for this whole thing?

    The ability to combat OC's has nothing to do with loosing games. It takes 2 LMG clips and 1 pistol clip un-upgraded. An OC is nothing special.
  • SaltzBadSaltzBad Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26833Members Posts: 1,276
    edited June 2004
    And marines are indeed overpowered, and aliens superbly inflexible and vulnerable. You're either a fool or have a blind old ladys aim if you think they absolutely aren't.

    OCs do indeed have impressive success on public servers, because the common form of marine 'teamwork' is swarming across the map 1 by 1 - which works fine as long as you're not up against static defense, or have a commander that will drop a structure ontop of the OC group.
    If I had a million resnodes...

    "The atom bomb will never go off - and I speak as an expert in explosives."
    - U.S. Admiral William Leahy in 1945.
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    edited June 2004
    You would have to be blind to realize aliens stand just as much a chance. The only thing I hear from people is whinning and more whinning about how aliens need to be more powerful.

    Your 5 res method DOES intrigue me though... how does it work?
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 920 mod
    QUOTE (Recoup @ Jun 29 2004, 04:49 PM)
    Wasnt the start of this idea the fact that you thought aliens needed to be more powerful? Wasnt that the motivation for this whole thing?

    No, it wasn't. Read the first post of this thread, which inspired the unchained plugin and gameplay :

    http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=71686

    Not only does it begin by stating a concern for stale strategy, but it addresses the assumption that aliens will become gameplay-crippling overpowered and predicts that this will not be the case. The data you have provided, though more valid if pulled from more servers, only stands to substantiate the author's original message.

    This gameplay change is both fun and not an unmanageable threat to balance.
    TGNS Portal | NS2 side-by-side game viewer
    IronHorse wrote: »
    TG's win or lose mod that replaces the concede function is the best of both worlds and should be official.
  • geekanarchygeekanarchy Join Date: 2004-03-09 Member: 27244Members Posts: 56
    I think the near 50/50 percentage is pretty good. Expecially considering how a newb comm can basically screw you over in the first 2 minutes of the game. Comming is an art (and I make no claim to my skill at it) that is learned over time. Also, you haven't taken into account that as marines play longer, they will be able to have greater effectiveness combating the aliens' new diversity.

    It seems, Recoup, that you taking a near balance in the statistics and trying to somehow say they are grossly lopsided. 150 more victories? Statistics are easily manipulated. A simple example:

    Lets take male to female population from the 2000 US Census. Did you know there are over 5.3 million more females in the US than males? That's huge! More than the populations of North Dakota, South Dakota, Alaska, Vermont, Wyoming, Deleware, and Montana COMBINED. In fact, there would still be half a million females after counting all those states. So is the US being overrun with women? No. Just because statistics show a small leaning to one side of a chart, doesn't mean that that there is an imbalance. Genetics state that we should have an exactly 50/50 population of males to females. But just because that isn't reality, doesn't change the fact that we still have 50/50 probability of each new child born to male or female. In fact over time, it may be that males will soon be in greater portion than females, or it's possible that females will gain an even greater lead in population.

    Either way, statistics do not prove an argument. If statistics were significanly tilted towards one side, it would certainly help in making an argument, but stats alone do not. Especially considering the unregulated conditions under which these statistics were taken. Where is the control group? What about games that wern't played competatively/not playing to win? How many victories happened because of a failed relocate? How many were victories because of a rush? On the odd player games, who got the extra person? How do you take into account for players leaving early? There really are more variables here than can be taken into account.

    While these are definately interesting to look at, I don't see how it can convince anyone one way or the other, particularly due to the closeness of the stats themselves.
    skulk.gif skulk.gif skulk.gif
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 920 mod
    QUOTE (Recoup @ Jun 29 2004, 04:56 PM)
    Your 5 res method DOES intrigue me though... how does it work?

    Please don't drown his point in minutia, and please don't discuss OC-countering strategies in this thread, as that's terribly off-topic.
    TGNS Portal | NS2 side-by-side game viewer
    IronHorse wrote: »
    TG's win or lose mod that replaces the concede function is the best of both worlds and should be official.
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    But it sounds so interesting! tounge.gif

    Will someone just do as I asked 3 times and give me more unchained chambers servers?
  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members Posts: 2,179 Advanced user
    edited June 2004
    There's the highly respected Roob's No Time For Muppets : 212.23.5.114:27015

    And Unchained Chambers (as well as any other plugin at Roob's) is server side only. Only client side thing I know of is Cheating Death tounge.gif
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members Posts: 1,109
    Do I need to get a special plug-in for the servers changes or does it have those put into the server already without me having to download anything?
  • SaltzBadSaltzBad Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26833Members Posts: 1,276
    Drop a CC and recylce it, Recoup tounge.gif
    If I had a million resnodes...

    "The atom bomb will never go off - and I speak as an expert in explosives."
    - U.S. Admiral William Leahy in 1945.
  • JikxJikx Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3563Members Posts: 69
    I suppose this thread definitely shows one thing - some people should go back to school and learn statistics!
This discussion has been closed.