Unchain The Upgrades
Palin
Join Date: 2003-03-24 Member: 14848Members
Join Date: 2003-03-24 Member: 14848Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why stop and Unchain the Chambers?</div> After reading through the recent <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71686' target='_blank'>Unchain the Chambers</a> thread I came up with the following suggestion and observations to further the decoupling spirit. The reason for the separate thread is so not to hijack the Unchain the Chambers thread by going off topic.
Here goes:
Why stop at unchaining the chambers to the hives?... Why not also unchain the upgrades from the chambers? Several observations after considering this for a while.
1) no more need for 'levels' of upgrades... a stock attribute of an upgrade could be defined and be in existence regardless the number of chambers placed (that concept has always bugged me a bit)
2) based partly on #1, you could evolve an upgrade regardless of whether an associated chamber is placed or not. Some means of compensating the marines for giving the aliens an immediate upgrade at the beginning of the game would likely be needed... maybe not... who knows.
3) upgrades could be added/removed as there would no longer be a need for 'symmetry' of chamber related upgrades. (does anyone actually Redeem anymore?)
4) chambers would now be used solely for their latent abilities rather than any need to have certain upgrades at certain times. Likely need to increase cost to 12-14 to compensate for the effectiveness or even different costs for each of the chambers.
5) the number of upgrades is dependent upon the number of hives (ie. 1 upg @ 1 hive, 2 @ 2, 3 @ 3) OR even the ability to have all the upgrades with each succesive upgrade costing more and more (ie. 1 upg = 1 res total, 2 upg = 3 res total, 3 = 6 res total, 4 = 10, 5 = 15, etc...) OR any number of other possibilities concerning # of upgrades. Basically an upgrade cost system could develop.
6) possibly move an upgrade or two into a hive trait along with the other buffs that come along with hives to give even more emphasis to hive building/protection (ie. hive 2 = regen, hive 3 = SoF... then remove those as possible upgrades as per suggestion #3)
Basically it opens the doors not only to even more potential alien customizability than Unchaining the Chambers gives, but also more capability to balance things on a more individual level. I hope that the same constructive criticism we've witnessed for unchaining the chambers could also be applied to this idea of unchaining the upgrades (both the good AND bad).
Here goes:
Why stop at unchaining the chambers to the hives?... Why not also unchain the upgrades from the chambers? Several observations after considering this for a while.
1) no more need for 'levels' of upgrades... a stock attribute of an upgrade could be defined and be in existence regardless the number of chambers placed (that concept has always bugged me a bit)
2) based partly on #1, you could evolve an upgrade regardless of whether an associated chamber is placed or not. Some means of compensating the marines for giving the aliens an immediate upgrade at the beginning of the game would likely be needed... maybe not... who knows.
3) upgrades could be added/removed as there would no longer be a need for 'symmetry' of chamber related upgrades. (does anyone actually Redeem anymore?)
4) chambers would now be used solely for their latent abilities rather than any need to have certain upgrades at certain times. Likely need to increase cost to 12-14 to compensate for the effectiveness or even different costs for each of the chambers.
5) the number of upgrades is dependent upon the number of hives (ie. 1 upg @ 1 hive, 2 @ 2, 3 @ 3) OR even the ability to have all the upgrades with each succesive upgrade costing more and more (ie. 1 upg = 1 res total, 2 upg = 3 res total, 3 = 6 res total, 4 = 10, 5 = 15, etc...) OR any number of other possibilities concerning # of upgrades. Basically an upgrade cost system could develop.
6) possibly move an upgrade or two into a hive trait along with the other buffs that come along with hives to give even more emphasis to hive building/protection (ie. hive 2 = regen, hive 3 = SoF... then remove those as possible upgrades as per suggestion #3)
Basically it opens the doors not only to even more potential alien customizability than Unchaining the Chambers gives, but also more capability to balance things on a more individual level. I hope that the same constructive criticism we've witnessed for unchaining the chambers could also be applied to this idea of unchaining the upgrades (both the good AND bad).
Comments
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Although l1 cloaking, adrenaline, and possibly carapace, could be the more useful non-level-3 upgrades.(Meaning I consider being able to spread out "upgrade points" is a rather nice idea. For some of the upgrades anyway)
Well said.
There could potentailly be NO LEVELS assiciated with an upgrade... simply the effect of a lvl3 upgrade (much like in combat) or slightly tweaked for balance reasons. There wouldn't be any such thing as lvl1 cara + lvl2 regen or any such mixing.
Upgrades would also be unchained so as to not limit the "one upgrade per chamber" idea. You could get both celerity and adrenaline if you had the capability to upgrade twice. We also wouldn't have to necessarily restrict evolution to three upgrades... thus my comments on a progressively more expensive system of evolution.
I actually think this kind of concept would actually facilitate "noob" play. This would give noobs the option to get whatever upgrade they wanted to play with at any time without wondering why "I could get cloaking last game, why can't I get it this game?"
Remember when you unchain the chambers you have already essentially provided a "any upgrade at any time" environment, but they are still somewhat bound to the chambers being built. This idea is to simply unchain them so that getting your upgrades is no longer dependent upon whether the appropriate chamber has been built. This lets the chambers be used solely for their latent effects around the map.
>Make each upgrade a one level thing, already at level 3 basically.
>Each chamber of the same type increases the number of upgrades of that type allowed. You can't get carapace/regen with just one DC.
>Try a no upgrade limit to see how balanced it is, and if too strong then figure out a max limit that best fits.
The problem with this is twofold.
1) This would potentially allow multiple levels of upgrades at the very beginning of the game without an appropriate cost to newfound power given to the aliens.
2) It simply re-chains the upgrades in a different fashion, which kinda defeats the purpose. The idea here is to have no relation whatsoever between the upgrades you get and the chambers being built.
As for the # of upgrades to be had regardless if you allow more than one from any given category or not, there are easy ways to go about this. The simplest is to allow only 1 upg per hive built which is basically the current existing system. In order to boost the aliens (esp. in the early game) you could implement the grading cost/upgrade I mentioned in the first post.
Though to balance out the early game I think the cost of upgrades would have to be raised from what I originally proposed. Something along the lines of (1 upg = 2 total cost, 2 upg = 5 total cost, 3 = 9 total cost, 4 = 14, 5 = 20, etc... basically every upg costs 2 + #(upgrades used) res. The # of hives could also be used to alter the equation a bit. Say you start off with 3+#(upg) at 1 hive, 2+#(upg) @ 2, and 1+#(upg) @ 3. This would make the cost of being a super skulk or lerk in the beginning that much more costly, while making it much more viable in the late game. Regardless, the ability to have numerous upgrades early game may still be too overpowered to warrant even a graded cost upgrade system.
It'd likely be better to just stick with the 1 upg / hive since that forumula basically works right now for the most part.
second, I like the thought of multipul upgrades... mostly thinking of a super skulk. It would FINALLY allow the aliens to have a good solid melee unit between the regular skulk and the fade.
If I'm reading this right, a skulk could pay exponential res to upgrade any 3 upgrades of choice. This would mean at hive 1 i could pay 6-9 res for a cloaked, silenced, regen skulk? then at the 2nd hive i could pay 12-18 res for a cerelity, carapice, regen, focus, SOF, Silenced skulk with leap? Well... perhaps if it were more expensive (20-25 res) it would be fair considering the res costs involved. half a fade's res isn't bad considering it goes down in 2 shottie blasts or a LMG mag
But fades... oh god... It would be terrible. They are already the best alien unit, they really REALLY dont need this kind of boost. Skulk only perhaps? no, we need super battle gorges to!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Now... the chambers may not need any raised cost at all... that's just some speculation. However, by no means can I see the costs being lowered (not that you implied this).
I agree that the graded upgrade system probably would make the higher lifeforms almost impossibly difficult to kill for classic scenarios. Just another reason I would concede that the 1 upg / hive would probably be the best route.
* Apply "Unchained Chambers". Its the basis behind "Unchained Upgrades"
* Remove association of upgrades to appropriate chambers. Allows people to take multiple upgrades per upgrade type (ie. Cara + Regen or Celerity + Adren). Also allows for more freedom in adding, removing, or changing upgrades with a more holistic context rather than in the context of which chambers have been built (ie. the context that Combat can use because it doesn't rely on chambers to determine which upgrades can be chosen).
* Remove levels of upgrades. Make every upgrade automatically the equivalent of a lvl 3 upgrade (or slightly altered for whatever reasons you might think of).
* 1 upgrade per hive. When a hive goes down players will keep their upgrades until they die.
* Possibly slightly increase the cost of SC's (to 11-12) to address the cloak spamming in early game.
* Perhaps decrease the cost of MC (to 8-9) to address its limited use on the field OR give it a strengthened AOE ability for surrounding structures and/or units with a higher cost much like SC's.... mmm.... sound absorption (Silence AOE would be absolutely deadly combined with Cloak AOE).
I'd like to see some more opinions on this, both in its advantages and its shortcomings.
EDIT: sp and reorganization of points.
how so?... there is virtually little change to what this offers on top of what Unchained Chambers already offers. It simply extends the variation that Unchained Chambers offers as well as adds in some more customizability to the devs.
Understand that the complexity of the game is already fairly high (especially to the newcomer) and these changes IMO add little extra to that complexity. This makes it a candidate for consideration at the very least.
1 gorges drops an MC and you have 5 silence skulks on your hands 30 seconds into the game. Same with SC and Focus.
A Regen Carapace Fade would be feared by all marines.
Dont alter the cost of the chambers, balance them to fit with the others to stop confusion.
Really just take things one step at a time, Unchanined Chambers still might not go into the game, don't think so far ahead, it just confuses the situation.
Actually there would be 5 silence skulks regardless. This scheme allows upgrades regardless of any chambers being built at all. Chambers sole existence is for strategic placement about the map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Firstly making every upgrade automatically level 3 would be a huge imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Especially in context to the above observation. Quite honestly though I never expected many of the upgrades to have exactly the same power as they currently do at lvl 3. Some simply don't require that much power to begin with. I for one would like to see focus change in a VERY big way (increases attacks to structures by x1.25 - x1.50... something on those lines). Currently the only reason it gets used are for 1-hit kills early on... which I can certainly live without, but I'm getting off topic now. The effects of an upgrade can be altered easily enough to compensate for any drastic overpowerment in the early game. Raised costs can also be implemented early game and reduced as more hives come into play (5 res/upg down to 3 res/upg giving even more importance to hive control).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dont alter the cost of the chambers, balance them to fit with the others to stop confusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly don't see the point of making every chamber cost the same simply for symmetry's sake. Different costs hardly make it a more complicated situation. Just longer/shorter wait times depending on what you want to build.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really just take things one step at a time, Unchanined Chambers still might not go into the game, don't think so far ahead, it just confuses the situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, but it doesn't hurt to go ahead and talk about changes that could take place two or three iterations down the road. If anything it gives us foresight into how well the 1st iteration might actually work in the grand scheme of things. If we end up discovering some flaw in some future iteration it would do us well to account for it in the present (barring any drastic balance problems that might ensue). This is also why I began a separate thread so as to not mix up the current idea development with Unchained Chambers.
Some upgrades would also have to be seriously reworked or removed for balance reasons (I can see focus being extremely strong under this system, so it would either have to have a high res cost or just be removed entirely; redemption would have to be removed entirely to prevent unkillable regen/cara/redem aliens)
I like this idea for several reasons: first, it reduces the rift between combat and classic by making the evolution systems more similar; second, it allows the kharaa to upgrade units in a more streamlined fashion to prevent massive jumps in tech levels (so 1 hive skulks with some res could upgrade to something more combat effective) which would seriously foritfy their ability to function without fades; finally, it would allow players to choose a specific lifeform to play as and remain at least vaguely useful throughout the whole game.
Another advantage of this system is that it actually makes the game easier to balance in the long run - if one upgrade is too good, it can be individually weakened or made more resource-intensive without having any repurcussive effects on the usefulness of any other upgrades, unlike in the current system where upgrades effectively compete against one another for choice.
I appreciate that this is almost certainly never going to be integrated into the game as it would change how it is played almost immesurably (although, that's what I thought about removing hive restrictions).
The problem with this is twofold.
1) This would potentially allow multiple levels of upgrades at the very beginning of the game without an appropriate cost to newfound power given to the aliens.
2) It simply re-chains the upgrades in a different fashion, which kinda defeats the purpose. The idea here is to have no relation whatsoever between the upgrades you get and the chambers being built. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Response to 1: You would obviously up the cost of the upgrades themselves.
Response to 2: In my opinion, it is highly unlikely we will ever see upgrades unrelated to their particular chamber. Mine are unchained from the hive constraints and the one per class limit. It might be better if you were only allowed a certain # of upgrades per hive, thus rechaining them to the hive, but remember that marines have to tech, so why should aliens be able to jump straight to the peak of their power with no major resources spent?