Natural-selection.org Forum Overmoderation
[WHO]Them![[WHO]Them](https://forumsdata.unknownworlds.com/uploads/ipb/nav-10593.jpg)
You can call me Dave Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10593Members, Constellation
You can call me Dave Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10593Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Hopefully this doesn't sound like a rant</div> First off, let me state a few facts which I know to be true, just to let everyone know my mindset here.
1. The natural-selection.org forums are indeed a privilege. It's private property and can be run any way it's owners desire within the bounds of law. Given that it's private property, there's no concept of free speech other than what the owners define.
2. The moderators are put in charge for a reason, based on past examples of discipline and/or maturity.
That being said, I feel I need to say a few things. I wasn't sure exactly where to post this topic, but discussion seemed like the best bet.
I got a message from "blue-is-back", who apparently used to be a guy named "scooter-blue" who got banned from the forums and has some bad blood about it. I'm sure some of the rest of you got the message from him as well, seeing as how it was just general spam.
I was curious, so I followed the link and read around a bit. After reading his posts, I've come to the conclusion that his actions may be considered "trolling", but the sheer amount of effort that he's putting into them makes me give him the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes he's in the right. I'm not specifically going to take sides on his ban, seeing as how I don't know the full story.
What I am going to do, is take a moment, and voice what *I* think about the topic of forum overmoderation. At the end of the day, I don't expect anything to change. But I must acknowledge that unless a "problem" is actively voiced. It has absolutely no hope of ever being resolved.
So without further ado, my opinion:
The moderating team of these forums does an excellent job of moderating content that I think needs to be edited/deleted/locked. But, I feel that certain moderators also edit/delete/lock content that doesn't need to be moderated at all.
Posts that express any negativity at all are often subject to being edited. The difference between a negative opinion and a flame is far reaching. Without negativity we're all blithering shiny happy people. People need to know that they've done something stupid once in a while (and by "need to know", I mean they need to be told in other forms than an edit to a post of theirs).
Off-Topic threads that seem to have gone "off topic" seem to be subject to locks, which doesn't make much sense. Especially since it hasn't gone off topic in the opinions of those participating.
Locks being performed by someone outside the discussion is obviously a meaningless action. But for people inside the discussion, it's like they're all talking on the phone with eachother and the service suddenly goes out.... forever. The result is actually a creation of anti-productive tendencies over a long enough timeline.
By not letting conversations finish themselves, you help to create a mental block in the heads of those involved towards long topics. So they tend to migrate towards shorter, and shorter (read randomer, and randomer) topics.
And a final note to add, without specifically naming names. I do think that certain moderators (more than 2) seem to moderate with a grudge.
I understand that with such a large amount of content to moderate, it's understandable that moderators will have a short fuse. But that doesn't make it any more acceptable in the end.
So, in short, I think that overmoderation is indeed a problem, and this is only a voice instead of any kind of demand for change. I would however like to see if I'm in the minority with my opinions here.
1. The natural-selection.org forums are indeed a privilege. It's private property and can be run any way it's owners desire within the bounds of law. Given that it's private property, there's no concept of free speech other than what the owners define.
2. The moderators are put in charge for a reason, based on past examples of discipline and/or maturity.
That being said, I feel I need to say a few things. I wasn't sure exactly where to post this topic, but discussion seemed like the best bet.
I got a message from "blue-is-back", who apparently used to be a guy named "scooter-blue" who got banned from the forums and has some bad blood about it. I'm sure some of the rest of you got the message from him as well, seeing as how it was just general spam.
I was curious, so I followed the link and read around a bit. After reading his posts, I've come to the conclusion that his actions may be considered "trolling", but the sheer amount of effort that he's putting into them makes me give him the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes he's in the right. I'm not specifically going to take sides on his ban, seeing as how I don't know the full story.
What I am going to do, is take a moment, and voice what *I* think about the topic of forum overmoderation. At the end of the day, I don't expect anything to change. But I must acknowledge that unless a "problem" is actively voiced. It has absolutely no hope of ever being resolved.
So without further ado, my opinion:
The moderating team of these forums does an excellent job of moderating content that I think needs to be edited/deleted/locked. But, I feel that certain moderators also edit/delete/lock content that doesn't need to be moderated at all.
Posts that express any negativity at all are often subject to being edited. The difference between a negative opinion and a flame is far reaching. Without negativity we're all blithering shiny happy people. People need to know that they've done something stupid once in a while (and by "need to know", I mean they need to be told in other forms than an edit to a post of theirs).
Off-Topic threads that seem to have gone "off topic" seem to be subject to locks, which doesn't make much sense. Especially since it hasn't gone off topic in the opinions of those participating.
Locks being performed by someone outside the discussion is obviously a meaningless action. But for people inside the discussion, it's like they're all talking on the phone with eachother and the service suddenly goes out.... forever. The result is actually a creation of anti-productive tendencies over a long enough timeline.
By not letting conversations finish themselves, you help to create a mental block in the heads of those involved towards long topics. So they tend to migrate towards shorter, and shorter (read randomer, and randomer) topics.
And a final note to add, without specifically naming names. I do think that certain moderators (more than 2) seem to moderate with a grudge.
I understand that with such a large amount of content to moderate, it's understandable that moderators will have a short fuse. But that doesn't make it any more acceptable in the end.
So, in short, I think that overmoderation is indeed a problem, and this is only a voice instead of any kind of demand for change. I would however like to see if I'm in the minority with my opinions here.
Comments
That said the moderators do a terrific job not letting these boards become anywhere near as bad as the steam powered forums which allmost seem unmoderated at times even though I suspect, the forumites over at steam powered are very similar to those over here, just unmoderated.
I have to agree first and foremost that the problem (or maybe not the problem) lies within the fact that these forums are indeed private property.
That being said, I have to say I'm still pleased with the way the forums are moderated. If anyone has ever frequented the www.battle.net forums, you know what I'm talking about.
Sometimes I've found posts to be locked prematurely, yes. Especially in off-topic. Some are being locked when they just simply don't need to be locked. As Them stated, what's wrong with off-topic going off-topic? I can more than understand stopping a conversation going sour with flames and rants, people will be people after all, and they won't always get along. But when the mood is cheery and people are having a good time, why not let them carry out their discussion, even if its one of folly?
As in, would know the situation of setting free 100 guilty men just so 1 innocent man isn't convicted as well?
Well I think the mods are like jailing 50 guilty men at the expense of every one innocent forumite.
Me, when I moderate, I like to keep things very loose, only moderating racial remarks and bad things
I can tell you, you'd see a few more swears around here if this board was admin'ed by me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I could moderate like the NS admins, though I wouldn't like to :/
The point of the offtopic forum isnt to take threads off topic, its to discuss not so seriously things unrelated to NS. When you drag the thread off topic, its just the same as in any other forum - that thread was set up to discuss something else and you hijacked it. Not cool - and certainly shouldnt be encouraged.
Aside from the odd, yet forgivable, moderation blunder I think these forums are fine.
The point of the offtopic forum isnt to take threads off topic, its to discuss not so seriously things unrelated to NS. When you drag the thread off topic, its just the same as in any other forum - that thread was set up to discuss something else and you hijacked it. Not cool - and certainly shouldnt be encouraged. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slowly going off topic is completely different from hijacking.
We've all had a conversation about something as simple as your favorite pen being blue that somehow ended up being about how you swallowed all your transformers in the 3rd grade..... These things happen in normal conversation.
Going into this, I must make one thing clear: That I won't lead, nor tolerate, a public discussion of another members ban, for the following reason:
Equally important to the often cited right of free speech are the civil liberties of personal diginty and privacy. While not legally bound to any of the three within the boards frame, I try to live up to their spirit as far as possible without of curtailing one of the others.
This means to me that I will not start denouncing other peoples mistakes in public, <i>especially</i> if they have no way of voicing their opinion due to a ban. If you are gone, you are gone - that's harsh enough without of knowing that I'll laugh at you behind your back with the roughly 1000 people frequenting these boards every day.
It also means that I will treat things spoken in private as such and won't make them public without all concerned sides specific permission.
So, if you want to discuss scooter-blues ban while not being scooter-blue, PM me to tell me you think he should be allowed in - everything further will be nuked.
Now, for your points:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And a final note to add, without specifically naming names. I do think that certain moderators (more than 2) seem to moderate with a grudge.
I understand that with such a large amount of content to moderate, it's understandable that moderators will have a short fuse. But that doesn't make it any more acceptable in the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to adress this first.
<b>If you feel unfairly treated by a moderator or admin on these boards or feel you have observed such an unfair action against a third person, first contact the mod/admin concerned in private. If you can't resolve the issue mutually, feel free to contact me.</b> We are only human, and as all humans, we are prone to mistakes. Furthermore, contrary to what some might assume, we're also aware of this <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I <i>have</i> reopened topics I locked. I <i>have</i> reversed edits. I <i>have</i> lifted suspensions, bans, and restrictions. The option of reporting abusive actions is open to every one of you and is not just a preface - we take your concerns serious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Posts that express any negativity at all are often subject to being edited. The difference between a negative opinion and a flame is far reaching. Without negativity we're all blithering shiny happy people. People need to know that they've done something stupid once in a while (and by "need to know", I mean they need to be told in other forms than an edit to a post of theirs).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm inclined to agree with you here - I, in particular, am prone to trying to 'harmonize' discussions. I'll watch my own fingers, and hope to be notified by you if that fails (see point one).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Off-Topic threads that seem to have gone "off topic" seem to be subject to locks, which doesn't make much sense. Especially since it hasn't gone off topic in the opinions of those participating.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. The Off-Topic forum could just as well be called 'Miscellaneous Forum' - each thread in it follows a special subject, and if this subject is lost, the thread has gone, well, off-topic.
I'd like to point out that we do not exactely lock every thread that has departed from its point of origin, hell, we tend to <i>participate</i> in many such threads, but if a thread is basically in the realm of 'no topic', with people basically posting to give others the opportunity to post, to give others the opportunity to post, it's becoming difficult to justify why the thread should be kept on the frontpage, when that interesting discussion of the differences between Fallout and Baldurs Gate is threatening to drop from it.
So, basically, the intention behind locking off-topic off-topic posts is to finish a conversation that refuses to finish itself. If you feel someone was overzealous locking a thread for this reason, however, refer promptly to the above. It's easy for someone who didn't follow a discussion to mistake it as ended.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only thing about the moderation of these boards that annoy me is the locking of topics because the original question was adequately answered. It can be and often is usefull to discuss whatever subject comes up as long as it's not one of those old topics that are never really resolved and tend to stirr up bad feelings more than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, I'll stop it.
Overall though I feel the moderating policy is spot on and overmoderation is only very very slight. I agree with locking off topic threads that go off topic. It may sound like a contradiction but as has been said befor off topic is not no topic and clearly hijacking a thread is disrespectful to the topic poster and you should continue it in a seperate thread. That unlike in telephone conversation etc you easily have the ability to make. Just drop a link in the old thread so people can continue it there. (The many thread derailings in discussion over Iraq based topics is clear evidence of this)
Well damn. Nem0, just covered all my points making this a bit redundent, but hey ho.
Oh and I agree that theres a difference between slowly going off topic and hijacking, but theres a fine line between them. I find it annoying though when a topic slowly starts splitting in two with some people keeping on the original point and others slowly but surely steering it away. If you see what I mean.
It's been my experience in the past that contacting someone in charge when you have a differing opinion only worsens the situation. <i>Especially</i> when the accusation is grudgery.
All I can tell you is that I have no problem with telling my staff members when they screwed up, and did so before. I'm sorry, but it's not fair to assume that we are not going to listen to you if you didn't try, especially since, well, I'm listening to you right now, and it doesn't seem as though your account is dissolving <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But when I said "It's been my experience in the past". I was referring to general internet locations. Such as #naturalselection, which I realize is a separate entity from these forums, but which I've steered clear of for almost a year because "talking it out" never worked.
Might I however suggest to wait a little before lodging your complaints in #ns? It's in the nature of real-time chat that both sides can get emotionally involved, so it's often best to take a break of 15 minutes to give both sides the opportunity of cooling down.
It's been my experience in the past that contacting someone in charge when you have a differing opinion only worsens the situation. <i>Especially</i> when the accusation is grudgery. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the case of suspected "grudgery," I'd still recommend PMing the mod/admin in question. If necessary, try to separate the most recent moderating action from the suspected grudge by asking why the mod/admin did a particular something rather than asking why he/she did a series of somethings over a given period of time.
Another possibility is to PM a mod/admin who knows more about the subject. Example: I once locked a thread with a rather angry anti-piracy final post saying that asking for CD-key help wasn't allowed. This happened in the general server support forum, which I rarely frequent but wandered into when I saw the title of this most recently posted-in thread.
A little later I saw the thread was re-opened by Spyder Monkey. Apparently I'd misinterpreted the first poster -- he/she was asking for help with Cheating-Death.
Above all, please do feel free to contact us.
Also I've noticed a trend through all the moderators towards a rather 'distaste' towards vets and clanners in general.
<span style='color:white'>Well, that'll be a surprise to our two ex-vet mods... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--></span>
being an ex-vet that i am
This is no state, this is a message board. The people I ban, I do not ban from the realm of the breathing. Nobody <i>has</i> to come here, I don't withhold something vital from our banned users.
Also, speaking personally, I was born in Germany. Do you have an idea of how it feels to me, knowing full well what this word <i>means</i>, to be called a fascist?
If someone was banned it was probably because they deserved it, where on certain forums you get banned just for having a slightly dissenting opinion.
Could we please, PLEASE make up our minds about old posts/repetitions of old posts? I see it happening a lot, when someone comes to the board and starts a new topic that has been brought up in the past, they get spammed with links to the old thread and "use search, nub" style comments and the thread (generally) thus gets locked. Sometimes the <admin/mod> locks it right away with a simple "there have been several discussions of this, use search" or something of similar wording. However, if he goes forth, searches and revives the old discussion, he gets called out for necroposting, and again, the post gets locked. Kind of a discouraging catch-22 situation, really.
The funny thing is, when they ban people, they remove their access to see the forums, and thus use the PM features. Now THAT is just stupid. That's akin to stealing people away in the middle of the night in a police raid and sending them to Siberia.
Also, if you send a message to the 'abuse line' it says you won't get a reply. So really, we don't know if anything is getting done.
The funny thing is, when they ban people, they remove their access to see the forums, and thus use the PM features. Now THAT is just stupid. That's akin to stealing people away in the middle of the night in a police raid and sending them to Siberia.
Also, if you send a message to the 'abuse line' it says you won't get a reply. So really, we don't know if anything is getting done. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except people online have considerably more options than people in Siberia. I really don't see where the comparisons to real-world totalitarian states come in here, this is not a country and there are no physical consequences to a ban. If someone is permabanned they shouldn't be able to use PM anyway, otherwise we'd end up with even more "I was banned and I'm whiny, unban me" PMs from people like scooter.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a very good reason why everyone who participates in these forums is responsible for reading and learning the rules.
A few days ago some russian posted a thread in russian explaning how he saught other russians, now I think that was perfectly fine to lock that one, and the reasoning was forum only english or something. Next he post a thread in english explaining things, then some self-moderating members said it's was not a good idea to post a new thread since his other got locked. Next the topic was locked without any reasoning by Necrotic. I have talked to Necrotic before, and he said at that time he was usually tired and hard job. Sure, happens to all so I sent him a PM explaning the situation (I didnt act provocting, I think) and nothing happened since. It's really bugs me because I kinda liked the guy, he even posted in a birthday thread despite being completely new to the forums. Anyway, I'm not after a witchhunt, just some bettering of conditions..
There is a set method of debating. You have to make an arguement, something you can defend and others can attack. I maintain along with most people that while it is possible to express you opinion in one line, it is impossible to make any sort of reasonable contribution to a discussion in that same sentence.
The usual effect of these type of statements is to lure those posters from the opposing side with a distinct lack of self control into flaming you, but yeah you already realised that.
Can you link to any of your contributions to threads that were considered hijacking?
I have not been a perfect poster, but I have not had any problems with the moderation of these boards. One of my threads got locked (a three word story game) with no reason given, so I PMd the mod and he explained, to which I agreed
One of my posts in discussion was nuked entirely along with another post, but that was by the original topic poster's request, and I agreed with the action taken then.
The only time I felt I had been treatedunfairly was when a discussion was getting a little heated but the mods didn't step in until quite a bit later, after a few posts verging on flaming had been posted, and then said it was my fault (and only my fault) that the thread was locked. While I felt that this was a little harsh, I didn't see any reason to take it up in a PM as the issue was so petty.
So there you go. Over all, I think the mods are doing a superb job given the circumstances, and, while I understand that problems do need to be talked about, I think that the average forumite should be doing everything he can to help the mods, not hinder them. (Do not read "suck up to" instead of "help" in that last sentence.)
There is a set method of debating. You have to make an arguement, something you can defend and others can attack. I maintain along with most people that while it is possible to express you opinion in one line, it is impossible to make any sort of reasonable contribution to a discussion in that same sentence.
The usual effect of these type of statements is to lure those posters from the opposing side with a distinct lack of self control into flaming you, but yeah you already realised that.
Can you link to any of your contributions to threads that were considered hijacking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't need someone to pat me on the back and say "nice contribution" I say how I feel , and if my opinion is against the rules then I guess I shouldn't be allowed to post my thoughts and discussions in a discussions forum. Im so sorry I have a different way to express myself.
We dont do it for a pat on the back.
Suggestion - look at the name of the forum. Discussion forum. Not opinion forum. Its not a place for people to express themselves, its a place for people to express themselves in discussion. If you aren't discussing, and are in fact actually distracting people from discussing by littering the place with flamebait opinion, then let the locks fall where they may......