<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 1 2004, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 1 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've been killed in one shot from a SG, but only if it's lv. 2 weapons or higher. Otherwise, you live with exactly 5 hp. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fine, but you said "There is no one hit kills on the lerk" which is obviously not true. And then you started throwing mud at anyone who said so.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jun 2 2004, 05:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jun 2 2004, 05:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 1 2004, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 1 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've been killed in one shot from a SG, but only if it's lv. 2 weapons or higher. Otherwise, you live with exactly 5 hp. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fine, but you said "There is no one hit kills on the lerk" which is obviously not true. And then you started throwing mud at anyone who said so. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Try looking at the context next time.
He said, "One shotty blast, <b>umbra or not</b>, is a dead lerk."
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 2 2004, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 2 2004, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jun 2 2004, 05:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jun 2 2004, 05:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 1 2004, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 1 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've been killed in one shot from a SG, but only if it's lv. 2 weapons or higher. Otherwise, you live with exactly 5 hp. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fine, but you said "There is no one hit kills on the lerk" which is obviously not true. And then you started throwing mud at anyone who said so. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Try looking at the context next time.
He said, "One shotty blast, <b>umbra or not</b>, is a dead lerk." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, right..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do the math and get rid of your ignorance dude <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I said Shotgun CAN one shot after you said there are no one hit kills...
If spike returns, it certainly shouldn't replace bite. It should replace spore.
Advantages of spike over spore: - Does more damage initially - Can be "stacked" (you can spike a single marine multiple times in a short period, but spores won't stack) - Damages HA marines - Damages structures (allowing aliens to break a lockdown)
Advantages of spore over spike: - Affects a wider area - Does damage over time (unless marines are smart enough to move out of the cloud) - Doesn't require nearly as much accuracy
I guess the biggest advantages of spikes don't really apply in clan games, since it is worthless to use structures for defense and HA marines are too slow. However, spikes are much more useful than spores in pubs. I would never argue for spikes replacing bite, though.
its because so many people we complaining about the bite being taken out, that flay got rid of spikes and put in bite. now people are complining about spikes being gone. PEOPLE, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!
The shotgun will kill a lerk in one shot. Assuming every little pellet hits, which is, at mid-range (a bit beyond bite range) maybe 25% of the time, and at bite range 60-70% chance.
But, I haven't tested if it works that way with umbra.
HOWEVER!
Carapace will save you every time. With carapace, I have never once fallen in one shot.
I go lerk extremely often in CO (it's by far my favorite class), so I would know this stuff. I find Lerkbite to be the best thing since sliced bread. It makes the lerk FUN! It's also the best way to take out jetpackers in CO maps. Spikes wouldn't work well against the same jetpackers, because resupply will keep them healthy (which is why spores don't work).
If you ask me, lerk spike is only possible if it replaces spores, and even then it's a big maybe.
<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jun 6 2004, 08:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xeno @ Jun 6 2004, 08:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its because so many people we complaining about the bite being taken out, that flay got rid of spikes and put in bite. now people are complining about spikes being gone. PEOPLE, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's because people want bite <i>and</i> spikes. This means removing <i>spores</i>. So, people don't need to make up their mind, because that isn't even the issue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (Xeno @ Jun 6 2004, 08:34 AM) its because so many people we complaining about the bite being taken out, that flay got rid of spikes and put in bite. now people are complining about spikes being gone. PEOPLE, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!
That's because people want bite and spikes. This means removing spores. So, people don't need to make up their mind, because that isn't even the issue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or remove Primal Scream, add its effect to Charge or something so we would have:
<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jun 6 2004, 11:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xeno @ Jun 6 2004, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its because so many people we complaining about the bite being taken out, that flay got rid of spikes and put in bite. now people are complining about spikes being gone. PEOPLE, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I made up my mind long ago... Spikes, Now you go tell the bite people to play as skulk if they wanna bite stuff for christ's sake. I'm horrified at the 30 res gassy flying skulk currently in NS.
Edit: Or just have bite/spike under slot one and keep the current lerk... You know life will go on if one alien has more then 4 weapons right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Or remove Primal Scream, add its effect to Charge or something so we would have:
Bite Spike Spore Umbra<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Moving umbra to hive3 would be a horrible move.
<!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Jun 7 2004, 02:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Jun 7 2004, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Or remove Primal Scream, add its effect to Charge or something so we would have:
Bite Spike Spore Umbra<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Moving umbra to hive3 would be a horrible move. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Spore isn't that important... However it should Kill REALLY fast (even HAs) If moved to 3rd hive instead of umbra.
<!--QuoteBegin-BugBrain+May 31 2004, 01:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BugBrain @ May 31 2004, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Spikes with the current flight system would be next to worthless. In order to spike while flying, you would have to be flying right at the rine, a garunteed death for any lerk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> THIS is why spikes are not going to be replacing any of the lerk's other abilities any time soon. It's the new flight system. This flight system ensures that you CANNOT move while you are spiking, at least from the POV of the marine you're shooting. You can only fly in the direction you're facing, and if you're spiking a marine, you suddenly become a "stationary" target to him, even if you're in the air (unless you're falling).
Other concerns: - Spike is good against jps: well bite owns them just as well. - Lerk should be support class: the lerk's low health, not its abilities(spike vs bite), limits its role as a fighter. - Spore doesn't damage HA, spike does: you should be umbraing anyway not spiking. - ??: Bite lets lerk take down structures.
Spikes just didn't fit the lerk IMO. Pretty much the only thing spikes were good for was killing tfs and such in locked down hives, but a fade(s) will do the job much faster.
Spores are better for killing marines anyway imo. Lerks shouldn't be trying to get kills anyway, they should be busy supporting/annoying. Better to wear them down to 1-2 bite kills with spores for skulks.
One of the main reasons I want Spikes is to help break a two-hive lockdown.
The dev team removed Spikes and gave the Marines Electricity, now the only effective way to break the dreaded two-hive lockdown is with a Fade or Onos.
Also I would rather have a 2ed hive Spore and a 3rd hive Umbra that was effective than the wimpy versions we have now, even primal seems kinda of weak.
Old umbra was 2/3, or about 6.6/10. It was also combined with bugged fade hitboxes, which made it seem even better than it was. It would need to be significantly better than 1.04 umbra.
1.04 was 2/3. 2.x was supposed to be 2/3, but it ended up only being 1/3. In 3.0 that was fixed, found to be too powerful, and (I believe) reduced to 1/2.
And to explain what I said earlier, half of the shots fired at a fade would miss even if the fade stood completely still and didn't have umbra, simply because the top half of the fade was not part of its hitbox.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->id really like to know how the hitboxes are neva completely fixed... just fix them, dont assume ya did, but check. i never understood it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah and when they do fix the hit boxes, Fades will start to go down when you blow on them, like the Onos do now that their hitboxes have been fixed.
I would almost rather the buggy hitboxes remain now that the Fade is pretty well balanced (other than Acid Rocket, and maybe metabolize both seem kind of lame to me).
I say they make the fade and onos hitboxes small, and then use different models to accurately represent the new hitboxes. Anyway, this is getting off topic.
I guess spores are better to use when flying around with the new flight model, but spikes are better if you are sitting in a vent, on top of damaging HA and structures.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One lerk perching on a vent and tearing down HA's, phase gates, and turret factories all by itself doesn't exactly fit in the game mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-semi-psychotic+Jun 9 2004, 04:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (semi-psychotic @ Jun 9 2004, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One lerk perching on a vent and tearing down HA's, phase gates, and turret factories all by itself doesn't exactly fit in the game mechanics. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wouldn't be tearing down.. But killing a heavy as a lerkj is near impossible. Even if he has LMG/Knife/Pistol. Similar investments of Res. But the lerk - even with focus, can't bite him down fast enough compared to how fast he can die to the HA.
With spikes, he'd atleast be able to soften him up for his teammates some without losing 30 res in the process.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With spikes, he'd atleast be able to soften him up for his teammates some without losing 30 res in the process.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is why I would like to see some sort of spore effect on heavies. Returning spikes would have the unfortunate side effect of allowing one alien to take down an entire outpost with little effort.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wouldn't be tearing down.. But killing a heavy as a lerkj is near impossible. Even if he has LMG/Knife/Pistol. Similar investments of Res. But the lerk - even with focus, can't bite him down fast enough compared to how fast he can die to the HA.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lerks aren't supposed to be taking out heavies alone. Plus, most aliens have the problem of not being able to take down heavies... that's a problem with the endgame kharaa, not the lerk class.
Comments
Fine, but you said "There is no one hit kills on the lerk" which is obviously not true. And then you started throwing mud at anyone who said so.
Fine, but you said "There is no one hit kills on the lerk" which is obviously not true. And then you started throwing mud at anyone who said so. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try looking at the context next time.
He said, "One shotty blast, <b>umbra or not</b>, is a dead lerk."
Fine, but you said "There is no one hit kills on the lerk" which is obviously not true. And then you started throwing mud at anyone who said so. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try looking at the context next time.
He said, "One shotty blast, <b>umbra or not</b>, is a dead lerk." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, right..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do the math and get rid of your ignorance dude <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I said Shotgun CAN one shot after you said there are no one hit kills...
I hope SPike gets brung back sometime later.
Advantages of spike over spore:
- Does more damage initially
- Can be "stacked" (you can spike a single marine multiple times in a short period, but spores won't stack)
- Damages HA marines
- Damages structures (allowing aliens to break a lockdown)
Advantages of spore over spike:
- Affects a wider area
- Does damage over time (unless marines are smart enough to move out of the cloud)
- Doesn't require nearly as much accuracy
I guess the biggest advantages of spikes don't really apply in clan games, since it is worthless to use structures for defense and HA marines are too slow. However, spikes are much more useful than spores in pubs. I would never argue for spikes replacing bite, though.
But, I haven't tested if it works that way with umbra.
HOWEVER!
Carapace will save you every time. With carapace, I have never once fallen in one shot.
I go lerk extremely often in CO (it's by far my favorite class), so I would know this stuff. I find Lerkbite to be the best thing since sliced bread. It makes the lerk FUN! It's also the best way to take out jetpackers in CO maps. Spikes wouldn't work well against the same jetpackers, because resupply will keep them healthy (which is why spores don't work).
If you ask me, lerk spike is only possible if it replaces spores, and even then it's a big maybe.
That's because people want bite <i>and</i> spikes. This means removing <i>spores</i>. So, people don't need to make up their mind, because that isn't even the issue.
its because so many people we complaining about the bite being taken out, that flay got rid of spikes and put in bite. now people are complining about spikes being gone. PEOPLE, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!
That's because people want bite and spikes. This means removing spores. So, people don't need to make up their mind, because that isn't even the issue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or remove Primal Scream, add its effect to Charge or something so we would have:
Bite
Spike
Spore
Umbra
I made up my mind long ago... Spikes, Now you go tell the bite people to play as skulk if they wanna bite stuff for christ's sake. I'm horrified at the 30 res gassy flying skulk currently in NS.
Edit: Or just have bite/spike under slot one and keep the current lerk... You know life will go on if one alien has more then 4 weapons right?
Bite - Spore - Umbra - Primal
|
Spike
Bite
Spike
Spore
Umbra<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving umbra to hive3 would be a horrible move.
Bite
Spike
Spore
Umbra<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving umbra to hive3 would be a horrible move. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spore isn't that important... However it should Kill REALLY fast (even HAs) If moved to 3rd hive instead of umbra.
(think 1.04)
THIS is why spikes are not going to be replacing any of the lerk's other abilities any time soon. It's the new flight system. This flight system ensures that you CANNOT move while you are spiking, at least from the POV of the marine you're shooting. You can only fly in the direction you're facing, and if you're spiking a marine, you suddenly become a "stationary" target to him, even if you're in the air (unless you're falling).
Other concerns:
- Spike is good against jps: well bite owns them just as well.
- Lerk should be support class: the lerk's low health, not its abilities(spike vs bite), limits its role as a fighter.
- Spore doesn't damage HA, spike does: you should be umbraing anyway not spiking.
- ??: Bite lets lerk take down structures.
Spores are better for killing marines anyway imo. Lerks shouldn't be trying to get kills anyway, they should be busy supporting/annoying. Better to wear them down to 1-2 bite kills with spores for skulks.
The dev team removed Spikes and gave the Marines Electricity, now the only effective way to break the dreaded two-hive lockdown is with a Fade or Onos.
Also I would rather have a 2ed hive Spore and a 3rd hive Umbra that was effective than the wimpy versions we have now, even primal seems kinda of weak.
It was only recently fixed and the dev team discoverd it was too powerful at the level it was supposed to be at, which was 2/3 I believe.
And to explain what I said earlier, half of the shots fired at a fade would miss even if the fade stood completely still and didn't have umbra, simply because the top half of the fade was not part of its hitbox.
Yeah and when they do fix the hit boxes, Fades will start to go down when you blow on them, like the Onos do now that their hitboxes have been fixed.
I would almost rather the buggy hitboxes remain now that the Fade is pretty well balanced (other than Acid Rocket, and maybe metabolize both seem kind of lame to me).
Edit:added a T
I guess spores are better to use when flying around with the new flight model, but spikes are better if you are sitting in a vent, on top of damaging HA and structures.
Why not?
Wouldn't be tearing down.. But killing a heavy as a lerkj is near impossible. Even if he has LMG/Knife/Pistol. Similar investments of Res. But the lerk - even with focus, can't bite him down fast enough compared to how fast he can die to the HA.
With spikes, he'd atleast be able to soften him up for his teammates some without losing 30 res in the process.
This is why I would like to see some sort of spore effect on heavies. Returning spikes would have the unfortunate side effect of allowing one alien to take down an entire outpost with little effort.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wouldn't be tearing down.. But killing a heavy as a lerkj is near impossible. Even if he has LMG/Knife/Pistol. Similar investments of Res. But the lerk - even with focus, can't bite him down fast enough compared to how fast he can die to the HA.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks aren't supposed to be taking out heavies alone. Plus, most aliens have the problem of not being able to take down heavies... that's a problem with the endgame kharaa, not the lerk class.