My Commander Strategy, B0rked?
DarkATi
Revelation 22:17 Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17532Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Revelation 22:17 Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17532Members, Reinforced - Shadow
OK, so I've been playing since 1.04 and by all means consider myself a decent commander. Apparently...
A) I suck as commander.
B) My Commander Strategy Sucks.
C) The guys were wrong.
We were playing veil. I dropped an IP and Armory and a TF in the middle. I dropped a node at Topo and elec'd the TF to protect the CC/Armory and IP. As depicted below:
<img src='http://mappers.riseofpower.net/commstrat.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I ask you, what's wrong with that? I immediately got ejected and heckled, "noob" "terrible comm" "moron" and then kicked and banned by the admin a few minutes later for apparently no reason.
Is there something wrong with this?!? I've been comming for awhile now and while I don't claim to be the best... how did that setup suck?
*sigh* So Confused.
~ DarkATi
A) I suck as commander.
B) My Commander Strategy Sucks.
C) The guys were wrong.
We were playing veil. I dropped an IP and Armory and a TF in the middle. I dropped a node at Topo and elec'd the TF to protect the CC/Armory and IP. As depicted below:
<img src='http://mappers.riseofpower.net/commstrat.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I ask you, what's wrong with that? I immediately got ejected and heckled, "noob" "terrible comm" "moron" and then kicked and banned by the admin a few minutes later for apparently no reason.
Is there something wrong with this?!? I've been comming for awhile now and while I don't claim to be the best... how did that setup suck?
*sigh* So Confused.
~ DarkATi
Comments
And your base layout is terrible.
You want your IP as far as possible from the CC. You drop the armory a bit further. In Veil, you drop the IP near the stairs from the CC semi-balcony. Then you place the armory next to the wall in the Veil marine start.
Electrified turret factories are generally frowned upon for base defense. 2 packs of mines work just as well.
Make a good impression. Good base layout is a finer point in NS, but that usually gives the impression to your marines that you know what you're doing.
Electrifying, while good against skulks, is almost useless when they get higher lifeforms, so they end up not being worth the res to use, so it seems.
I have found that locking down the key points, and a res node or two here and there (as middle points) with phases and turrets, while slow, is extremely effective and makes for a lot of confusion/uncoordination on the alien side. Also, when/if they decide to attack one of these points, with the network setup with phases, you can reach them quickly, and the turrets will distract them long enough for you to dish out the pain. While this is all going on, the comm upgrades as possible at the base.
Keep in mind that while I have seen this done effectively, I have never been able to do it because someone always starts an eject vote and it pretty much always gets completed with me being booted from the chair. The few times I have stayed in, its been a long game, but one in which we have had the upper hand for a long while (it comes down to how well we push a hive and how well the aliens defend it or attack us). Unfortunately, there are a lot of servers out there that aren't friendly to new commanders, which is especially ironic when none of them will jump in the chair at the start at all. How quick they are to judge the man in charge, but not so eager to do it themselves =/
Almost never use a TF/Turrets/Elec. Spam nodes everywhere. Arms Lab should be the 3rd building you drop (after the IP and Armory), and before your first node. Arms Lab should get Armor1 IMMEDIATELY and should never be idle until you have 3/3 upgrades. Get an Obs after you've capped 3-4 nodes (so 1-1.5 minutes in). Get PG tech. Win.
An eleced TF for base defence is in fact VERY GOOD defence. However if you use it at the start of the match then its a bad idea. However once res flow is coming I see nothing wrong with spending a bit of it on base defence. You can dodge mines, you can't dodge electricity. So your problem was that these players think they know the best way to do everything and unless you do it their way its the highway for you.
The idea that the armoury should be next to the wall, is one idea, but it does leave it extremely exposed. A quick gorge rush and cu l8r advanced armoury.
"Arms Lab should be the 3rd building you drop (after the IP and Armory)"
This is also only 1 strategy and not the only strategy. One example differnt that you can't deny is; IP Armoury Obs PG's 3 RT's siege aliens only hive. No upgrades involved here.
"and should never be idle until you have 3/3 upgrades"
I have so many issues with this that I've discussed before. (and yes I'm seeking professional help)
As a final point, you can waste 100 res on medpacks at the start of the game play vs a good alien side and still win. Really that starting 100 res is nothing compared to how much res is aquired during the game and just because someone spends some of it in a slightly odd way does not mean you will lose the game. As soon as you become predictable you've lost...
Ceiling.
Ctrl button.
So much for mines.
Doesn't happen with electrification.
Even complete pubbers will mock your base setup. A Skulk could take out your IP, your armory, and then your comm chair without being zapped once. If you're going to electrify a base TF (and I usually do) then place the structures up against it so that a skulk has no chance at killing one of them without being elec'd, with the exception of an obs that is anything less than right on the boundary of the TF's collision.
Also, your base layout looks a bit...erm....well....you kinda have to bhop over the tf to hump ammo or something.
Its better to have all the upgrade structures (obs, arms lab, proto lab) somewhere at the back of your base, then the IPs, then the armory, and then the phase gate. or something. Just make sure the're nothing between the IPs, armory, and phase gate, and that they're all instantly accessible.
If you want to be leet, you can try placing everything over a wider area, far away from your chair, so you have a good chance to defend your base from the odd skulk that sometimes visits your base. If you insist on the elec tf strat, then make sure you have the armory in front, and the IPs beside the tf. Not the armory in some impossible position.
Ok now that you've wasted 45 res on base defense, you've just severely handicapped yourself. You could accomplish pretty much the same thing with mines rather than an electrified tf. If a lot of skulks are CONSTANTLY trying to get into your base then you're doing something wrong. Try pressuring the alien team so they won't have time to rush your base, most pub players don't respond well to pressure anyways and they just panic and rush you when they risk losing an area. If they're STILL rushing your base, which they shouldn't but i guess it could happen, then get someone to guard base. See, mines will not completely stop aliens in the way that electrification does. Skulks CAN walk around the mines and go for your buildings, but if there is a marine there, OR if the commander simply hops out of the chair, then that marine will either kill the skulk, or the skulk will trip over a mine and die. The mines pay for themselves and are a lot cheaper, it's a way better base defense than an electrified tf in base.
So basically, while an electrified tf is pretty foolproof to skulks, they are unnecessary and extremely expensive. Use the build order that nadagast suggested. OR you could try ip/armory/obs/mt rush. But the whole "build everything around an electrified building" strategy is thought of by most good players as a sure sign of an inexperienced pubbie commander.
edit: you know i've realized how many times i've repeated myself and the pubbers probably just shrug it off because how can their base survive without TURRETS OR ELECTRIFICATION OMGOMG?!
distance is the rines friend. you want as much time as you can too shoot teh skulk till he get to you and bites. also it allows the comm to jumpout and shoot the skulk biting the ip or buildings. putting tall structures by walls prevents skulks from using them as cover.
anoher tip....ips and phase gates..do not put them in corners or against walls.
put them in the middle of room so when spawning or phasing and ther are alisn on them the rine has freedom of movement in any direction and is more likely survive. appearing someplace already cornerd is bad.
On the marine side of the fence it IS pretty compact and could cause serious crowding for anyone planning to take some extra lmg round out of base.
Its not anything I would kick for, but at the same time its not very friendly looking.
For defence, I like to use this, or see it happen:
-2 packs of mines=8 mines will do pretty good for 20 res IF they are placed right.
-Beacon, for 15 res you have the whole marine army in you base again.
-The commander can log out/eject and kill the single skulk in base.
(Correct me if I'm wrong in anything of this) pls)
anyway...
i like the ip armory 1 pack of mines for the ip obs mt.
orders; cap/kill all rts you can and hit the first hive asap (since they probably went dc first).
Next time, like they say, build the stuff further out. It's usually a good idea to stick with 2 IPs unless you're in a teensy game, too. Personally, I think the people who say elec TF isn't worth it anymore are off their nut, but YMMV. I still usually end up not elecing these days anyway, because I need the res on elecing nodes or locking down a hive before I have the chance.
So we're on even terms, maybe the mines are better because they will pay for their replacements.
They get 2 hives. Aliens know you have a lot mines in base. A gorge comes along, puts 3 biles into your base and there go all your mines. Its guna cost 40 res again to make some base defence. Though if you cluster your buildings, 2 gorges can come in and wipe out almost all of them pretty quick.
So to be honest both ideas suck and I'm going against what I've said before. The only viable solution then is turrets. You can spread your buildings out, like the pro's suggest, and you have permanent cover at the base that activly attacks kharaa. Turrets also prevent aliens from healing up armour, due to the constant damage meaning only health is regenerated. So for 40 res, your best defence has to be a TF and 3 turrets. If you spend that res on base defence straight off then your making a mistake. But a small investment may help to prevent those desperate calls of, BASE BASE OMG BASE YOU NOOBS!!
Don't be too eager to use beacon btw. A common tactic is to attack the marine base and listen out for the beacon then high tail it out of there, good waste of 15 res =)
Besides, as (e)Kent says, use an Obs in one of your siege bases.
Let's say you want to spend 40 res defending your base. That will either be 3 turrets or an electrified TF. Neither of which will do a whole lot, but it will help keep your stuff alive long enough to do something about a real problem. If you place less than 3 turrets, they will be useless (blindspots everywhere), and elec costs 30, so if you want to spend less than 30 that means having a base monkey and maybe some mines, but we're assuming you want to spend the res.
Let's consider the turrets: Won't do much damage to a skulk because buildings will be in the way, will do negligable damage to an onos or fade, will tickle a lerk who comes to annoy you with gas, and won't do enough damage to kill a regen gorge. Also needs to actually be built by somebody in base. Easily expanded on with more turrets, but more turrets will still be sad against anything bigger than a skulk.
Now on the electrified circle of fried skulk: Will keep a skulk or two away from anything in range, and will kill them before they can destroy even the low HP obs. Useless against everything else. Hard to expand on, but you don't need anyone in base when you get it. So, about 2 min into the game when your marines are too far to walk back, you can get some defense.
They're both about equal (poor), but sometimes needed. I usually choose the electric ring in pubs.
Some guidelines on using the electric ring: Put your IPs next to each other, both around the TF. Your CC does not need to be protected, as it has <i>loads</i> of HP. Put your armory on the side opposite of the IPs, to reduce the risk of telefrag. Do not surround the IP with junk, but rather leave at least one side open. If you're going to crowd, do it on the armory side. The other structures that need to be protected are the obs, phase gate, and arms lab (low hp things that skulks like to eat). By the time you have a protolab, the electrified defense will be about useless, and you're already trying to squeeze 6 buildings around the TF. To fit all that stuff, your TF will usually need to be as far from the CC as the IPs will go, in a big open area.
As far as pubs go, I avoid dropping mines unless there's a vent in MS. Since I can't place them myself, they usually end up somewhere that annoys me.
Electrifying rts only works if you can keep the enemy from getting more than 3 rts, and thus have a hard time getting more chambers/fades/hives. Keeping the enemy down to 3 rts requires being aggressive, which is hard to pull off when you're spending all that res on electrifying stuff. So, if you're really whooping up, it can help you keep your lead longer. But, if you're really destroying them, you might as well get big guns and go win. So... it's extremely hard to use electrified rts in an effective way.
The notable exceptions would be if you're using the elec rt to defend a phase gate in a hive, or if you want to be mean and elec an rt right outside the enemy hive. Either will usually buy you 30 res worth of time.
When the kharaas time is nearing an end on the map, is usually when they start hitting base. If you insist on electrifying early drop a TF in base but don't electrify. And tell your marines why you dropped it. Later on when you have spare res you can electrify it, just for protection.
Your priorities should be upgrades and restowers. It's not like you can't distress beacon if your base goes under serious attack.
The same pubbies that I would expect to waste my mines I would also expect to hear "OMG he just went comm to drop himself stuff!" from. Or to steal the chair and drop something the moment I get out.
Plus, that early in the game the comm is quite busy. I wouldn't have the time to spare, between dropping rts, medpacks, occasionally ammo, and keeping track of the gorges.
I myself dont comm much, but the times ive seen comms use this, marines always won.
My suggestion:Leave/Comm late game and recycle everything/drop stuff on your marines while fighting (command chair...sexy)