Parents Rights To Decide For Their Children
Dread
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">about religion</div> Inspired by the abuse thread.
Parents have the right to decide many things for their children. In some cases it's good, for example it's good that parents encourage their kids to do sports or join a martial arts class or something similiar. And sometimes, it's good when they force their kids to do such things, when they know their kid will benefit from it in the future. Like forcing their kids to go to school or not allowing them to eat as much candy as they want. These are good examples of how it's parents' responsibility to choose for their children.
However, there are certain choices less obvious, that I hope we could discuss. Circumcision. Children are hurt for religious reasons, and I call this child abuse. Babtism. Religion is an extremely important part of many peoples lives. Do parents have the right to choose their childs religion, before he/she can even talk, or comprehend the concept of religion. In worst case, they just ruined the kids chances to get in to heaven, by forcing the 'wrong' god in his mind.
But what if the parents think they are doing their children a favor, as they believe their religion is the right one? Here, I believe, government should get involved. Governments are there to protect our right to choose for ourselves. I wouldn't want my parents to have me circumcised. If I wanted to donate my organs, I wouldn't want my parents to deny that after my passing. I wouldn't want my parents to let me die after a car accident, because they believe blood transfusion is morally wrong.
Parents have the right to decide many things for their children. In some cases it's good, for example it's good that parents encourage their kids to do sports or join a martial arts class or something similiar. And sometimes, it's good when they force their kids to do such things, when they know their kid will benefit from it in the future. Like forcing their kids to go to school or not allowing them to eat as much candy as they want. These are good examples of how it's parents' responsibility to choose for their children.
However, there are certain choices less obvious, that I hope we could discuss. Circumcision. Children are hurt for religious reasons, and I call this child abuse. Babtism. Religion is an extremely important part of many peoples lives. Do parents have the right to choose their childs religion, before he/she can even talk, or comprehend the concept of religion. In worst case, they just ruined the kids chances to get in to heaven, by forcing the 'wrong' god in his mind.
But what if the parents think they are doing their children a favor, as they believe their religion is the right one? Here, I believe, government should get involved. Governments are there to protect our right to choose for ourselves. I wouldn't want my parents to have me circumcised. If I wanted to donate my organs, I wouldn't want my parents to deny that after my passing. I wouldn't want my parents to let me die after a car accident, because they believe blood transfusion is morally wrong.
Comments
We all have limits to our rights, to protect us from each other (and from ourselves), but I don't find it just for parents to be able to force their opinion on a child as a right, especially when the child lacks the understanding of said opinions.
I'm rather glad I wasn't forced into any religion. Sure, I remain agnostic to this day, but at least I'm able to decide for myself whether any god or religion out there suits me (or lack thereof.)
in my opinion, the parents can do whatever they want to the kid (short of abuse, which i don't think this qualifies for), and when the kid grows up he/she can make their own informed decision.
After all, the child wont believe in a god because you tell them too, they will find their own way to their own belief's and while they might be influenced, the worst it will do is give them a solid background in a popular way of thinking... nothing wrong with that as long as you give them the chance to make their own minds up.
I was brought up christian but was given the opportunity to decide whether I go to church or not... one day I decided not but my Mom still went.
(Lucky me, my dentist says I actually don't HAVE any wisdom teeth... says it's a very rare and very lucky condition)
in my opinion, the parents can do whatever they want to the kid (short of abuse, which i don't think this qualifies for), and when the kid grows up he/she can make their own informed decision. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course you can teach your kids about the morals you think are right. I don't think teaching your kid "don't kill" and "don't steal" is a bad thing. However your kid should make the decision of what religion he wants to belong in. Your kid should make the decision if he wants to get circumcised or not.
In my opinion, you should wait until your kid is old enough and then ask him what he wants, after you explain him about such things. However, allowing people to cut of their kids skin because it's in their religion, is in my opinion unacceptable.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
From an anatomical standpoint, circumcision actually greatly decreases the chances of getting urinary tract infections and other such nastiness... it does more good than harm. It's not much different then getting your wisdom teeth removed before they even start causing a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as I know, wisdom teeth have to be removed when they start causing trouble, or prior. Circumcision on the other hand is no more mandatory than getting your appendix removed, and billions of people get over their lives just fine without circumcision.
Christening a child is not for the child, it is for the parents. It is a way for the parents to say "Yes, we are going to bring this child up with the values and beliefs that we have", and who can take that right away from them? If, when the child grows up, he doesn't want to ber a christian, he can choose not too. The child will still have to make the choice for himself to become a Christian, all the christening does is a sign from the parent to the rest of the world (and God) saying how they will bring the child up.
I believed in the Christian god up until I was about 9 or 10, then I realized: "This seems very illogical to me. I don't think there really is a god, I think it's just something made up to keep people from breaking laws." There hasn't been a doubt in my mind about there being no god since.
Children should always have an influence in every decision, especially when it gets a little more advanced than to not eat candy.
Genesis 17 vs 9 - 14
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God said to Abraham, "You also must agree to keep the covenant with me, both you and your future generations. You and your descendants must all agree to cirumcise every male among you. From now on you muist circumcise every baby boy when he is 8 days old, including slaves born in your homes and slaves brought from foreigners. This will show that there is a convenant between you and me. Each one must be circumcised and this will be a physical sign to show that my covenant with you is everlasting. Any male who has not been circumcised will no longer be considered one of my people, because he has not kept the covenent with me."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you go for an immunisation injection, do you object to it due to violence? It is by definition a wound (the needle punctures the skin and blood can be lost as a result) - but not many people protest to them...
GG serious discussons...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A place for more serious not NS-related discussions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That means keeping sarcasm and humour out of it. If, however you were being serious, the forum has sunk to an all time low.
Do you honestly think that if a police man says "Don't kill anyone" to your friend, that it doesn't apply to you? Has a policeman ever said "Do not kill anyone" to you? Does he need to? Does a policeman need to turn up to your 7th birthday and recite the law to you? Maybe you think it applies to you because you live in the same country. Well, guess what, relegion is exactly like that too! God doesn't tell every Jew to circumcise their babies, because it is part of thier religion.<span style='color:black'><span style='font-size:0pt;line-height:100%'>I honestly cannot believe I replied to that.</span></span>
Shanks -> An injection is both neccesary and almost painless, removing a piece of yourself by force isnt. But hey, if my religion is to toss around a baby it still doesnt make it my right.
Boggle -> Could you take a bigger quote so I could see in what context he says it in?
So it's accepted to hurt your child on the basis of "(s)he won't remember it when (s)he's older"
Interesting approach, but I don't think it's right. In my opinion hurting a baby is far worse than hurting an adult or an older kid. If you want to circumcise yourself, you can do that when you're older. Your parents shouldn't have the right to decide that for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Christening a child is not for the child, it is for the parents. It is a way for the parents to say "Yes, we are going to bring this child up with the values and beliefs that we have", and who can take that right away from them? If, when the child grows up, he doesn't want to ber a christian, he can choose not too. The child will still have to make the choice for himself to become a Christian, all the christening does is a sign from the parent to the rest of the world (and God) saying how they will bring the child up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, okay. So christening can't be interpreted as 'keeping false gods', so the kid won't get punished and sent to hell for his parents mistake? If that is so, then no complains on my side.
We've forgotten one part from the discussion so far: what about parents/relatives deciding not to let their (unconcious)kid get a blood transfusion/a new organ/be kept in 'machines' even though he has good chances to recover? Do parents have the right to decide on their childs life, on religious basis?
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Alright – children aren’t capable of understanding and choosing whether or not they want to be circumcised. By the time they are old enough to grasp what that means, there’s no way they would say that they want to have it done. Not because they disagree with it – but because they don’t want to have to suffer through the process of getting it done. As an infant – it may not be pleasant but it’s not cruel either.
On the other hand, I haven’t decided if I am going to circumcise my boy(s) or not (when that time comes). I’m not a very religious person, but my husband is – and honestly I don’t think that will weigh in on our decision at all. We both agree that we will do whatever the doctor advised us to do. We just don’t want our boy being the “odd duck” in the locker room.
Why do you think it hurts any less when you're a baby, than when you're, say, 16? So instead of giving your kid a choice, you do it when he's unable to resist?
I don't want to sound like a total p**ck, but really, that's hurting your child. If he decides as older that he rather avoids the pain, it's then completely his to decide.
Think of it like this: you can force your kid to be circumcised when his 16 too. The only differences are:
a) he will remember it and hate you for it, even though the pain lasts excactly as long as it does for a baby
b) he has an opinion of his own.
The only reason to circumcise your kid when he's a baby is that he can't resist then and he won't remember it(but it will still hurt excactly as much).
By all means. Let me just c+p the whole bible.
(In other words, That is it. God set up a covenent with his children (Abraham and his descendants) and circumsicion was a sign of that.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why do you think it hurts any less when you're a baby, than when you're, say, 16? So instead of giving your kid a choice, you do it when he's unable to resist?
I don't want to sound like a total p**ck, but really, that's hurting your child. If he decides as older that he rather avoids the pain, it's then completely his to decide.
[snip]
The only reason to circumcise your kid when he's a baby is that he can't resist then and he won't remember it(but it will still hurt excactly as much). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
refer to my comment in the "What is the purpose of living" thread. Babies do *not* have fully developed sensory functions.
*edit*
P.S. Christians aren't supposed to get circumcised anyway. Don't believe me? Read Paul's letters.
Circumcision is not too useful(it helps a bit against one sickness that doesn't even concern most of the people) and it hurts like hell. Vaccination doesn't hurt(never hurt me) and it saves millions of people.
Your comparison is bad.
Circumcision is not important, it hurts and yet it's allowed for parents to hurt their kids with this stupid tradition.
Not important? Stupid tradition? Circumcision is one of the oldest and most fundamental traditions of the Jewish faith, evidence of this fact is that its still practiced today. Really if it was "stupid" and "not important" do you really think anybody would still do it? Honestly dread all I see here is another thread to crap on somebody religious belief. Your arguments are inane. First you are not Jewish, you have no right saying that is is not important. Second it is the parents decision, not the governments, nor the child. The parents rear the child the way THEY see fit, you don't have to like it.
Not important? Stupid tradition? Circumcision is one of the oldest and most fundamental traditions of the Jewish faith, evidence of this fact is that its still practiced today. Really if it was "stupid" and "not important" do you really think anybody would still do it? Honestly dread all I see here is another thread to crap on somebody religious belief. Your arguments are inane. First you are not Jewish, you have no right saying that is is not important. Second it is the parents decision, not the governments, nor the child. The parents rear the child the way THEY see fit, you don't have to like it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It hurts the kid, doesn't have a good enough medical reason behind it and is a tradition. In my book that counts as a "stupid tradition,"(sorry if I offended you with this)
But hey, prove me wrong and tell me why it's important? I'm hearing messages from God that tell me to cut my kid, now should governments allow me to do that?
The reason why it's still done, is because it's an old and fundamental tradition like you said. Politicians don't apparently have cojones to let go of it and ban it. Governments are not there to please religions, but to please common sense. Hurting your kid is NOT common sense(though you can prove me wrong by saying how it is).
Thank you.
Edit: And if you want to raise your kid how you fit: beat him, make him work for you or whatnot(not that I'm implying that you do such things), you can move to a country that doesn't advocate childrens rights. Try greenland, wait, even they have laws to protect their children from abusive parents. Nevermind. People are convicted every year for beating their kids, so I guess that means you are NOT allowed to raise your kid as you see fit. But what do I know.
I'm sorry, but well-meaning liberal hippies <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> do more harm than good by allowing kids to run scot-free.
This isn't supposed to be a parallel with circumcision, but let's face it: children don't have common sense. If you offer them the chance to play for an hour or study for a test that they'll fail if they don't study for it, they'll play for an hour. That's the whole point of parenting - the adults have more experience and hence wisdom, so they can make decisions that benefit the child. In the Jewish tradition, circumcision is one of the best benefit you can recieve - the inheritance of Abraham and the inclusion into God's nation.
This is a great deal different than abusing your children. Beating your kids because you had a bad day is abuse. Giving them a spanking to teach them not to empty the jug of milk all over the carpet is not - it's called discipline, which they'll need when they get older.
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It can be classified as violence and is bant that way. But IMHO a child shouldnt be taken from it's parent though I'd argue the parents shouldn't have that baby in the first place. We simply cant allow everyone to please every aspect and interprention of (imho) old fashioned writing. Whether they are a satan cult, middle-east fundamentalist and jews (okay, granted the comparison may be a little rough) Instead of (some) who strongly believes in a religion that says others should be open-minded when they themselves are narrowminded. I have nothing against folks who believes, just as long as noone gets hurt or forced onto it.
Ninja edit:
Whee, you are not catching Dread's drift. The child obviously cant decide for itself at that age, that's why you should wait til he child is ready to make that decision. At that time if he believes that he'll be "joining" god's nation he'll surely do.
By waiting you're not harming the child, and cant be compared to say deciding between study and play.
Okay, Dicipline IS WRONG. Spanking (as in any form for violence against children) is illegal in my country. Your dicipline is restrictive, you should learn the way to behave
by yourself and compassion for other people, trust me, the child will eventually learn by experience.
A smart parent will never have to beat it's child.
"Hey pal, I know you will be naughty in the future so we'll just cut it right off now <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->"
I'm sorry, but well-meaning liberal hippies <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> do more harm than good by allowing kids to run scot-free. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm totally with you on this. A quick snap on the head of a kid when he's being a total brat is more than right, in my moral terms. That's part of teaching. However _beating_, abusing or cutting your kid for reasons that have nothing to do with teaching is in my opinion to be abhorred. Mostly it is, and yet circumcision is allowed.
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It can be classified as violence and is bant that way. But IMHO a child shouldnt be taken from it's parent though I'd argue the parents shouldn't have that baby in the first place. We simply cant allow everyone to please every aspect and interprention of (imho) old fashioned writing. Whether they are a satan cult, middle-east fundamentalist and jews (okay, granted the comparison may be a little rough) Instead of (some) who strongly believes in a religion that says others should be open-minded when they themselves are narrowminded. I have nothing against folks who believes, just as long as noone gets hurt or forced onto it.
Ninja edit:
Whee, you are not catching Dread's drift. The child obviously cant decide for itself at that age, that's why you should wait til he child is ready to make that decision. At that time if he believes that he'll be "joining" god's nation he'll surely do.
By waiting you're not harming the child, and cant be compared to say deciding between study and play.
Okay, Dicipline IS WRONG. Spanking (as in any form for violence against children) is illegal in my country. Your dicipline is restrictive, you should learn the way to behave
by yourself and compassion for other people, trust me, the child will eventually learn by experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point of disciplining a child is so that it won't have to learn "the hard way."
Do you really think that being hooked on drugs for years is a good way to learn that drugs are bad? Compassion sometimes includes disciplining a child, not just indulging him.
I would also disagree with the "you're not harming your child by waiting" line. First of all, a 16-year old will feel a lot more pain and be incapacitated for a lot longer than a baby that is a few days old. Secondly, if you truly believe that something is good for your kid, will you wait "until he's old enough to decide if he wants it" or will you give it to him immediately?
It's the same argument as before, with the vaccinations, which Dread thinks are a bad analogy (they aren't, if you look closely). If your baby is in danger of getting polio, wouldn't you get him to a doctor instead of waiting around until he hits 16 years old and say to him "you want to get a polio shot?" - by then the baby could be dead, or crippled.
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Thats OK to you? Yet you're tearing others down for their views on circumcision?
... Just doesn't seem right <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
About the drug things, should we hit the baby while saying drugs are bad, just preemptively?