PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
edited May 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+May 21 2004, 06:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ May 21 2004, 06:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Er... It <i>does</i>. Sorry. Read <a href='http://info.astrian.net/jargon/' target='_blank'>this</a> and then get back to me. AllUrHive raises a far more valid point, one which I'm going to need to think about and reply to some time other than right after I've woken up (ie, now).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have.
<!--QuoteBegin-The Jargon Dictionary+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Jargon Dictionary)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->hacker n. [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]... ...This term seems to have been first <b>adopted</b> as a badge in the 1960s by the hacker culture surrounding TMRC and the MIT AI Lab. We have a report that it was used in a sense close to this entry's by teenage radio hams and electronics tinkerers in the mid-1950s.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is another nice tidbit:
<!--QuoteBegin-The Jargon Dictionary+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Jargon Dictionary)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is the Jargon File, a comprehensive compendium of hacker slang illuminating many aspects of hackish tradition, folklore, and humor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> See, they don't **** about other people using "their words" because they are all slang. These self proclaimed hackers have their own lingo, and they don't care what the rest of the world does with the words they use, and for good reason. I think you should be more like them.
What gives you the right to decide what a word you didn't create means over everyone else?
Saying that the traditional meaning of the word <i>hacker</i> has nothing to do with computers and therefore my argument is flawed, is itself a fallacy.
1: The word <i>does</i> have a rich tradition of use in the area of computers. My link to the jargon file wasn't specifically about that entry, but rather the fact that there is an entire collection of cultural notes about a certain group that identifies itself as "hackers". 2: Regardless of where the hacker community chose their name from, they chose it a long, long time ago. What does it matter where they picked their name from, anyway? The term has meant something with a rich culture of computer competence long before it meant computer criminal.
Before you say it: there's a difference between mistaking furnature makers for computer experts and mistaking computer experts for computer criminals. For one thing, the context is almost always going to be different. For another, there's a difference between mistaking someone's trade and calling them a criminal.
Next.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-The Jargon Dictionary+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Jargon Dictionary)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is the Jargon File, a comprehensive compendium of hacker slang illuminating many aspects of hackish tradition, folklore, and humor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> See, they don't **** about other people using "their words" because they are all slang. These self proclaimed hackers have their own lingo, and they don't care what the rest of the world does with the words they use, and for good reason. I think you should be more like them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1: The quote you've chosen doesn't support the argument that hackers don't mind other people "using 'their words'". You've inferred that from picking out the word "slang", which is baseless. But that's irrelevant, anyway. 2: Nobody said anything about whether it's right or not for non-hackers to use hacker jargon. You're a little off, there. 3: "I think you should be more like them" - yes, <i>I know you do</i>. Either way, I don't take offense at the misuse of the term. It just annoys me that people trivialise the difference as "elitist".
Finally:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What gives you the right to decide what a word you didn't create means over everyone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Now</i> who's taking offense over something trivial? Why do you care? Nothing "gives me the right" to "decide" anything. Yeah, my legion of word-nazi ninjas are going to kidnap you in the night and slit your throat. *rolls eyes*. Don't be stupid. I've given you ample reason why I'd like you to use the "right" terms already.
Besides, by that logic, you shouldn't call computer criminals "hackers" anyway, since the term originally meant furnature maker. After all, <i>what gives you the right to decide what a word you didn't create means over everyone else?</i>
Which brings us neatly to AllUrHive's point. Popular opinion defines a word's meaning. I see lately that the term "g a y" has come to mean a general-use derogitary term, in popular use (so much so, in fact, that this board's filter blocks it!). That's neither the word's original meaning, nor the meaning it took on to refer to a category of people. Does that still make popular use correct?
(To digress momentarily - don't waste my time with crap like "and frankly what you say has no bearing on this". Argue the point, don't flamebait with non sequiters. I can just as easily say that to you, and it will have the same effect. That is it wouldn't affect the discussion at all other than to cheapen it, and annoy you.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We are concerned with what it means NOW .... It's all about popular opinion, and popular opinion says...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can you give a reason WHY hacker has such a set meaning (besides "tradition" which is a useless reason when talking about slang)? Is it in the dictionary? Can you give me the genealogy of the word from its latin roots?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Spot the contradiction.
You were right the first time - a word means what people say it means, not what a dictionary says it means. And there's nothing other than tradition that defines slang terms - slang, by it's very definition, is formed by a group based on that group's traditions.
Anyway.
It's not directly related, but: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and popular opinion says (more or less) that a hacker="someone who finds holes in security and exploits them for purposes of curiosity or to prove that they can" and a cracker="someone who hacks merely for the purposes of destroy information."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree. I believe that most people assosciate the term "cracker" with a biscuity type thing which you eat with cheese, and that a "hacker" is someone who likes to break into your computer, read your email, steal company secrets, infest you with viruses, post embarassing messages from your login, steal money electronically etc. - with no rules other than to not get caught, and nothing else they do with their abilities.
The thing is, that's not completely off base. A hacker has the capacity to be a cracker; if you know that much about a piece of software, how can you not see the holes in it? After all, the jargon dictionary itself has an <a href='http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/h/hacker_ethic.html' target='_blank'>entry</a> about the ethics of cracking systems - it <i>is</i> something that many hackers do, to a greater or lesser extent.
The problem arises when the term "hacker" means nothing more than "they break into systems with no rules but their own", because then it can't mean anything else. This quote sums it up pretty well:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <a href='http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html' target='_blank'>How To Become A Hacker</a> There is another group of people who loudly call themselves hackers, but aren't. These are people (mainly adolescent males) who get a kick out of breaking into computers and phreaking the phone system. Real hackers call these people ‘crackers’ and want nothing to do with them. Real hackers mostly think crackers are lazy, irresponsible, and not very bright, and object that being able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many journalists and writers have been fooled into using the word ‘hacker’ to describe crackers; this irritates real hackers no end.
The basic difference is this: hackers build things, crackers break them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So in a way, yes the hacker\cracker distinction is elitist. The thing is, it's elitist towards people who believe that because they can break into systems and do damage they are worthy of respect.
It's true that the terms do blur in common usage. It's probably correct to say that the term "hacker" is used to refer to anyone who <i>can</i> break computer security, regardless of how exactly they were able to. Was it because they are aware of the holes because they know a lot about computers and is merely incidental knowledge, or do they want to do nothing but cause damage, and so go look up reported exploits in the hope of finding un-patched systems?
Another way of looking at it is that, regardless of its present meaning, "hacker" has always been a badge of respect. Which is why crackers and script kiddies call themselves as such. Hackers didn't invent 1337 sp34k; various strains of cracker did because they're 14 year olds who want to sound badass. And they think they sound badass because they call themselves "hackers".
So why give them the satisfaction of calling them that?
<!--QuoteBegin-Black Mage+May 21 2004, 07:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Black Mage @ May 21 2004, 07:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+May 21 2004, 05:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ May 21 2004, 05:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+May 20 2004, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ May 20 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Next time I see someone cheating in NS I'll call them a 'Cracker' and see what the reaction will be. Most likely, they'll take the term 'Cracker' to mean 'You're crackers' (ie: nuts). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you ever heard of the term cheater? I don't see why you would call some CHEATING a HACKER. Do you see where I am getting with this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that and most cheaters are pathetic script kiddies, refer to them as such <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most cheats (used to?) tie into .dll and .exes, basically memory hooks. It took a good understanding of programming to make HappyMod for Tribes2. Many people even know how to design their own cheats. By 'cheating' you're 'breaking into' and altering game code that is designed to be un-alterable, and designing it to circumvent and avoid any counter-cheat (ice).
So basically (both of) your shortsighted inane statements are nothing but, well, ****.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+May 21 2004, 05:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ May 21 2004, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Which brings us neatly to AllUrHive's point. Popular opinion defines a word's meaning. I see lately that the term "g a y" has come to mean a general-use derogitary term, in popular use (so much so, in fact, that this board's filter blocks it!). That's neither the word's original meaning, nor the meaning it took on to refer to a category of people. Does that still make popular use correct? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, this is getting a bit off-topic, so I won't get into it THAT much, but I feel I muct respond. The thing about that word (and most other words like it) is that it is not so much a derogitory term as it is associated with what some people view as a bad thing, and therefore they use the word as an insult to imply that whatever they are calling g a y is also associated with the "not-goodness" (scientific term, eh?) they also associate with being homosexual in the first place. In this case the word's definition wouldn't change if you used it as an insult (people who use it as an insult would still tell you it meant homosexual, although not in such terms, if you asked them), merely the context and the particular useage of the person saying it change. At least that's how I see things, but frankly I don't want to get into it that much more, lest this go crazily off-topic like the whole Emo thing. But in wrapping up yes, they are correct (although stupid if you ask me) in their useage
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(To digress momentarily - don't waste my time with crap like "and frankly what you say has no bearing on this". Argue the point, don't flamebait with non sequiters. I can just as easily say that to you, and it will have the same effect. That is it wouldn't affect the discussion at all other than to cheapen it, and annoy you.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I merely meant that your particular opinion has no bearing on general opinion. Not to say that your opinions mean nothing, but in this case we are only concerned with the popular definition.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree. I believe that most people assosciate the term "cracker" with a biscuity type thing which you eat with cheese, and that a "hacker" is someone who likes to break into your computer, read your email, steal company secrets, infest you with viruses, post embarassing messages from your login, steal money electronically etc. - with no rules other than to not get caught, and nothing else they do with their abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if that is true then that is what hacker means. The thing of it is, all slang terms can also have many meanings to different groups. So sure you can say that involving circles that are "in the know" that hacker means what you say, and in my circle I can say hacker means what I say, but for either of us to insist ours is more right than any others (and especially more right than the popular definition) is simply wrong. So if you want to use the old defintition, go right ahead, but don't insist that others use it, and be prepared to be misunderstood by those who use the popular defitinition.
<!--QuoteBegin-AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+May 22 2004, 07:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ May 22 2004, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree. I believe that most people assosciate the term "cracker" with a biscuity type thing which you eat with cheese, and that a "hacker" is someone who likes to break into your computer, read your email, steal company secrets, infest you with viruses, post embarassing messages from your login, steal money electronically etc. - with no rules other than to not get caught, and nothing else they do with their abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if that is true then that is what hacker means. The thing of it is, all slang terms can also have many meanings to different groups. So sure you can say that involving circles that are "in the know" that hacker means what you say, and in my circle I can say hacker means what I say, but for either of us to insist ours is more right than any others (and especially more right than the popular definition) is simply wrong. So if you want to use the old defintition, go right ahead, but don't insist that others use it, and be prepared to be misunderstood by those who use the popular defitinition. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, there are a handful of good reasons to use "cracker" rather than "hacker", despite common usage (I mean, regardless of what the "right" meaning of the words are, which, as we've discovered, is a fairly abstract concept). As I mentioned last post, "hacker" is a term of respect that crackers hunger for, so why give them what they want? It's also a more precise term than "hacker", as it <i>always</i> refers to breaking computer security (er... outside the context of afternoon tea <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->). And, of course, it shows that you understand the issues involved a little more deeply than the average joe.
So that's my case for using the word "cracker" rather than "hacker". If you don't want to use it then don't use it, and there are some good reasons <i>to</i> use it rather than not.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+May 21 2004, 06:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ May 21 2004, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+May 22 2004, 07:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ May 22 2004, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree. I believe that most people assosciate the term "cracker" with a biscuity type thing which you eat with cheese, and that a "hacker" is someone who likes to break into your computer, read your email, steal company secrets, infest you with viruses, post embarassing messages from your login, steal money electronically etc. - with no rules other than to not get caught, and nothing else they do with their abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if that is true then that is what hacker means. The thing of it is, all slang terms can also have many meanings to different groups. So sure you can say that involving circles that are "in the know" that hacker means what you say, and in my circle I can say hacker means what I say, but for either of us to insist ours is more right than any others (and especially more right than the popular definition) is simply wrong. So if you want to use the old defintition, go right ahead, but don't insist that others use it, and be prepared to be misunderstood by those who use the popular defitinition. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, there are a handful of good reasons to use "cracker" rather than "hacker", despite common usage (I mean, regardless of what the "right" meaning of the words are, which, as we've discovered, is a fairly abstract concept). As I mentioned last post, "hacker" is a term of respect that crackers hunger for, so why give them what they want? It's also a more precise term than "hacker", as it <i>always</i> refers to breaking computer security (er... outside the context of afternoon tea <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->). And, of course, it shows that you understand the issues involved a little more deeply than the average joe.
So that's my case for using the word "cracker" rather than "hacker". If you don't want to use it then don't use it, and there are some good reasons <i>to</i> use it rather than not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Myself I prefer to use Hacker in the context of more benign attacks, and cracker strickly for destruction, simply to differentiate. Being a computer expert shouldn't require its own word if you ask me.
Soul brings up a good point. I went to a LGB Panel a couple days(for all of you who don't know what that is, its a lesbian **** and bisexual Panel that answers questions and tells the audience how they live their life). Anyways, one of the big points they pointed out was the use of ****, it has been used soo much that it has lost its original meaning. Most of the panelists prefer the term queer instead of **** now due to its misuse.
This just shows you that many words have a valid definition before media or the people convalute its original meaning.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
Well queer can be used as n insult as well, and it is. Often. Frankly you can't have a word for homsosexuality without it becoming an insult in some people's minds. I've never been offended by **** or queer or homo being used as an insult, I can't see how it is it can be a good insult. If you're **** then it should be merely stating a fact, and if you're not then it also should be rather apparent that they are wrong, but that's just the way I see it. When people say that being **** is the devil or something, that is offensive. But other than that it just sounds kinda dumb.
<!--QuoteBegin-AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+May 22 2004, 02:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ May 22 2004, 02:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well queer can be used as n insult as well, and it is. Often. Frankly you can't have a word for homsosexuality without it becoming an insult in some people's minds. I've never been offended by **** or queer or homo being used as an insult, I can't see how it is it can be a good insult. If you're **** then it should be merely stating a fact, and if you're not then it also should be rather apparent that they are wrong, but that's just the way I see it. When people say that being **** is the devil or something, that is offensive. But other than that it just sounds kinda dumb. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, I am just telling you what actual queer and lesbian people felt about this situation. This was just an additional point to my original point which was the correct definitions of hacker and cracker, so there is no need to continue on the LGB point.
This seems like it is turning more into a discussion, maybe we should move this to the discussion section.
Isn't it interesting that the original meaning of "queer" is "abnormal", and the original meaning of "g4y" is "happy"; you'd expect that calling someone "abnormal" is more offensive than calling them "happy".
Comments
I have.
<!--QuoteBegin-The Jargon Dictionary+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Jargon Dictionary)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->hacker n. [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]...
...This term seems to have been first <b>adopted</b> as a badge in the 1960s by the hacker culture surrounding TMRC and the MIT AI Lab. We have a report that it was used in a sense close to this entry's by teenage radio hams and electronics tinkerers in the mid-1950s.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is another nice tidbit:
<!--QuoteBegin-The Jargon Dictionary+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Jargon Dictionary)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is the Jargon File, a comprehensive compendium of hacker slang illuminating many aspects of hackish tradition, folklore, and humor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, they don't **** about other people using "their words" because they are all slang. These self proclaimed hackers have their own lingo, and they don't care what the rest of the world does with the words they use, and for good reason. I think you should be more like them.
What gives you the right to decide what a word you didn't create means over everyone else?
Let's start from the beginning.
Saying that the traditional meaning of the word <i>hacker</i> has nothing to do with computers and therefore my argument is flawed, is itself a fallacy.
1: The word <i>does</i> have a rich tradition of use in the area of computers. My link to the jargon file wasn't specifically about that entry, but rather the fact that there is an entire collection of cultural notes about a certain group that identifies itself as "hackers".
2: Regardless of where the hacker community chose their name from, they chose it a long, long time ago. What does it matter where they picked their name from, anyway? The term has meant something with a rich culture of computer competence long before it meant computer criminal.
Before you say it: there's a difference between mistaking furnature makers for computer experts and mistaking computer experts for computer criminals. For one thing, the context is almost always going to be different. For another, there's a difference between mistaking someone's trade and calling them a criminal.
Next.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-The Jargon Dictionary+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Jargon Dictionary)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is the Jargon File, a comprehensive compendium of hacker slang illuminating many aspects of hackish tradition, folklore, and humor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, they don't **** about other people using "their words" because they are all slang. These self proclaimed hackers have their own lingo, and they don't care what the rest of the world does with the words they use, and for good reason. I think you should be more like them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1: The quote you've chosen doesn't support the argument that hackers don't mind other people "using 'their words'". You've inferred that from picking out the word "slang", which is baseless. But that's irrelevant, anyway.
2: Nobody said anything about whether it's right or not for non-hackers to use hacker jargon. You're a little off, there.
3: "I think you should be more like them" - yes, <i>I know you do</i>. Either way, I don't take offense at the misuse of the term. It just annoys me that people trivialise the difference as "elitist".
Finally:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What gives you the right to decide what a word you didn't create means over everyone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Now</i> who's taking offense over something trivial? Why do you care? Nothing "gives me the right" to "decide" anything. Yeah, my legion of word-nazi ninjas are going to kidnap you in the night and slit your throat. *rolls eyes*. Don't be stupid. I've given you ample reason why I'd like you to use the "right" terms already.
Besides, by that logic, you shouldn't call computer criminals "hackers" anyway, since the term originally meant furnature maker. After all, <i>what gives you the right to decide what a word you didn't create means over everyone else?</i>
Which brings us neatly to AllUrHive's point. Popular opinion defines a word's meaning. I see lately that the term "g a y" has come to mean a general-use derogitary term, in popular use (so much so, in fact, that this board's filter blocks it!). That's neither the word's original meaning, nor the meaning it took on to refer to a category of people. Does that still make popular use correct?
(To digress momentarily - don't waste my time with crap like "and frankly what you say has no bearing on this". Argue the point, don't flamebait with non sequiters. I can just as easily say that to you, and it will have the same effect. That is it wouldn't affect the discussion at all other than to cheapen it, and annoy you.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We are concerned with what it means NOW .... It's all about popular opinion, and popular opinion says...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can you give a reason WHY hacker has such a set meaning (besides "tradition" which is a useless reason when talking about slang)? Is it in the dictionary? Can you give me the genealogy of the word from its latin roots?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spot the contradiction.
You were right the first time - a word means what people say it means, not what a dictionary says it means. And there's nothing other than tradition that defines slang terms - slang, by it's very definition, is formed by a group based on that group's traditions.
Anyway.
It's not directly related, but:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and popular opinion says (more or less) that a hacker="someone who finds holes in security and exploits them for purposes of curiosity or to prove that they can" and a cracker="someone who hacks merely for the purposes of destroy information."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I believe that most people assosciate the term "cracker" with a biscuity type thing which you eat with cheese, and that a "hacker" is someone who likes to break into your computer, read your email, steal company secrets, infest you with viruses, post embarassing messages from your login, steal money electronically etc. - with no rules other than to not get caught, and nothing else they do with their abilities.
The thing is, that's not completely off base. A hacker has the capacity to be a cracker; if you know that much about a piece of software, how can you not see the holes in it? After all, the jargon dictionary itself has an <a href='http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/h/hacker_ethic.html' target='_blank'>entry</a> about the ethics of cracking systems - it <i>is</i> something that many hackers do, to a greater or lesser extent.
The problem arises when the term "hacker" means nothing more than "they break into systems with no rules but their own", because then it can't mean anything else. This quote sums it up pretty well:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<a href='http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html' target='_blank'>How To Become A Hacker</a>
There is another group of people who loudly call themselves hackers, but aren't. These are people (mainly adolescent males) who get a kick out of breaking into computers and phreaking the phone system. Real hackers call these people ‘crackers’ and want nothing to do with them. Real hackers mostly think crackers are lazy, irresponsible, and not very bright, and object that being able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many journalists and writers have been fooled into using the word ‘hacker’ to describe crackers; this irritates real hackers no end.
The basic difference is this: hackers build things, crackers break them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So in a way, yes the hacker\cracker distinction is elitist. The thing is, it's elitist towards people who believe that because they can break into systems and do damage they are worthy of respect.
It's true that the terms do blur in common usage. It's probably correct to say that the term "hacker" is used to refer to anyone who <i>can</i> break computer security, regardless of how exactly they were able to. Was it because they are aware of the holes because they know a lot about computers and is merely incidental knowledge, or do they want to do nothing but cause damage, and so go look up reported exploits in the hope of finding un-patched systems?
Another way of looking at it is that, regardless of its present meaning, "hacker" has always been a badge of respect. Which is why crackers and script kiddies call themselves as such. Hackers didn't invent 1337 sp34k; various strains of cracker did because they're 14 year olds who want to sound badass. And they think they sound badass because they call themselves "hackers".
So why give them the satisfaction of calling them that?
Have you ever heard of the term cheater? I don't see why you would call some CHEATING a HACKER. Do you see where I am getting with this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that and most cheaters are pathetic script kiddies, refer to them as such <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most cheats (used to?) tie into .dll and .exes, basically memory hooks. It took a good understanding of programming to make HappyMod for Tribes2. Many people even know how to design their own cheats. By 'cheating' you're 'breaking into' and altering game code that is designed to be un-alterable, and designing it to circumvent and avoid any counter-cheat (ice).
So basically (both of) your shortsighted inane statements are nothing but, well, ****.
Alright, this is getting a bit off-topic, so I won't get into it THAT much, but I feel I muct respond. The thing about that word (and most other words like it) is that it is not so much a derogitory term as it is associated with what some people view as a bad thing, and therefore they use the word as an insult to imply that whatever they are calling g a y is also associated with the "not-goodness" (scientific term, eh?) they also associate with being homosexual in the first place. In this case the word's definition wouldn't change if you used it as an insult (people who use it as an insult would still tell you it meant homosexual, although not in such terms, if you asked them), merely the context and the particular useage of the person saying it change. At least that's how I see things, but frankly I don't want to get into it that much more, lest this go crazily off-topic like the whole Emo thing. But in wrapping up yes, they are correct (although stupid if you ask me) in their useage
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(To digress momentarily - don't waste my time with crap like "and frankly what you say has no bearing on this". Argue the point, don't flamebait with non sequiters. I can just as easily say that to you, and it will have the same effect. That is it wouldn't affect the discussion at all other than to cheapen it, and annoy you.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I merely meant that your particular opinion has no bearing on general opinion. Not to say that your opinions mean nothing, but in this case we are only concerned with the popular definition.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree. I believe that most people assosciate the term "cracker" with a biscuity type thing which you eat with cheese, and that a "hacker" is someone who likes to break into your computer, read your email, steal company secrets, infest you with viruses, post embarassing messages from your login, steal money electronically etc. - with no rules other than to not get caught, and nothing else they do with their abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if that is true then that is what hacker means. The thing of it is, all slang terms can also have many meanings to different groups. So sure you can say that involving circles that are "in the know" that hacker means what you say, and in my circle I can say hacker means what I say, but for either of us to insist ours is more right than any others (and especially more right than the popular definition) is simply wrong. So if you want to use the old defintition, go right ahead, but don't insist that others use it, and be prepared to be misunderstood by those who use the popular defitinition.
Well if that is true then that is what hacker means. The thing of it is, all slang terms can also have many meanings to different groups. So sure you can say that involving circles that are "in the know" that hacker means what you say, and in my circle I can say hacker means what I say, but for either of us to insist ours is more right than any others (and especially more right than the popular definition) is simply wrong. So if you want to use the old defintition, go right ahead, but don't insist that others use it, and be prepared to be misunderstood by those who use the popular defitinition. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there are a handful of good reasons to use "cracker" rather than "hacker", despite common usage (I mean, regardless of what the "right" meaning of the words are, which, as we've discovered, is a fairly abstract concept). As I mentioned last post, "hacker" is a term of respect that crackers hunger for, so why give them what they want? It's also a more precise term than "hacker", as it <i>always</i> refers to breaking computer security (er... outside the context of afternoon tea <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->). And, of course, it shows that you understand the issues involved a little more deeply than the average joe.
So that's my case for using the word "cracker" rather than "hacker". If you don't want to use it then don't use it, and there are some good reasons <i>to</i> use it rather than not.
Well if that is true then that is what hacker means. The thing of it is, all slang terms can also have many meanings to different groups. So sure you can say that involving circles that are "in the know" that hacker means what you say, and in my circle I can say hacker means what I say, but for either of us to insist ours is more right than any others (and especially more right than the popular definition) is simply wrong. So if you want to use the old defintition, go right ahead, but don't insist that others use it, and be prepared to be misunderstood by those who use the popular defitinition. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there are a handful of good reasons to use "cracker" rather than "hacker", despite common usage (I mean, regardless of what the "right" meaning of the words are, which, as we've discovered, is a fairly abstract concept). As I mentioned last post, "hacker" is a term of respect that crackers hunger for, so why give them what they want? It's also a more precise term than "hacker", as it <i>always</i> refers to breaking computer security (er... outside the context of afternoon tea <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->). And, of course, it shows that you understand the issues involved a little more deeply than the average joe.
So that's my case for using the word "cracker" rather than "hacker". If you don't want to use it then don't use it, and there are some good reasons <i>to</i> use it rather than not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Myself I prefer to use Hacker in the context of more benign attacks, and cracker strickly for destruction, simply to differentiate. Being a computer expert shouldn't require its own word if you ask me.
This just shows you that many words have a valid definition before media or the people convalute its original meaning.
Hey, I am just telling you what actual queer and lesbian people felt about this situation. This was just an additional point to my original point which was the correct definitions of hacker and cracker, so there is no need to continue on the LGB point.
This seems like it is turning more into a discussion, maybe we should move this to the discussion section.
Just musing.