The lone (ish) gorge used to fulfil the role of commander for the alien team way back when. Because that gorge knew where all the buildings were - having placed them personally - they were able to decode the importance of the under attack sounds.
While not entirely a good measure of the idea, the alien commander suggestion has been popularly denied in I&S when it has been suggested. The general feeling being that it would make the two teams too similar. In your version, if all you can do is talk, where is the incentive? The marine commander can have a lot of effect on a game. All your 'alien commander' can do is rely information and hope the other players are paying attention.
Everyone I've talked to about Natural Selection wants to have aliens be uber 1337, and have marines be forced to work together. Ever bothered reading the stories about Natural Selection that are on the site under the "World" category? It's always 1 alien vs 2-3 marines. Aliens are supposed to be far physically stronger than marines are, and able to rip apart a single marine without much difficulty. I sure as hell do not want to play a game where the aliens are a bunch of wussies who have to lay cute little traps to kill ONE marine of THREE. Come on, give the aliens their balls back and let them OWN.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cereal_KillR+May 18 2004, 01:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ May 18 2004, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What I don't like is how a marine is superior to a skulk but how a good fade is far far superior than marines.
That means 70% of the time, the fade is the deciding factor if he hits at the right time <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> THAT IT EXACTLY the way I feel. The skulk, the basic marine and the Fade are far too different from each other in terms of balance and the amount of times they're used. Hard to say what to nerf and what to boost. My idea would be making the lmg less powerful and the fade less powerful.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+May 18 2004, 07:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ May 18 2004, 07:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...My idea would be making the lmg less powerful ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would also help with the "paper onos" problem.
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> really shouldn't be a hit-and-run(now with extra armor!) unit, if it's called a tank. They ought to be even slower, but really, really powerful. That way they're not going to run away(no hit-and-run) yet still not get totally owned.
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+May 18 2004, 12:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ May 18 2004, 12:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Everyone I've talked to about Natural Selection wants to have aliens be uber 1337, and have marines be forced to work together. Ever bothered reading the stories about Natural Selection that are on the site under the "World" category? It's always 1 alien vs 2-3 marines. Aliens are supposed to be far physically stronger than marines are, and able to rip apart a single marine without much difficulty. I sure as hell do not want to play a game where the aliens are a bunch of wussies who have to lay cute little traps to kill ONE marine of THREE. Come on, give the aliens their balls back and let them OWN. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If that was the case you would need to seriously nerf skulk speed in order to be balanced, something that would definetely be bad for the game's image. The reason why skulks are weak is because they can cover the map much faster and reach areas inaccessible to the marines. This allows them to plan ambushes easier, and respond much quicker.
You can imagine the consequences if you get a starting alien right now with the speed of a skulk and the ability to take down multiple marines of equal skill level. Everyone that <i>I've</i> talked to would quit NS if that ever happened.
If you want the tank onos/fade, go play 1.04. Of course you won't see many fades and very few oni in there, as you're not allowed to have fades until 2nd hive and oni until the 3rd so... Until then, try the teamplay. It works wonders, and makes pretty clear what needs to be nerfed and what needs to be left alone. And at this moment, nothing really "needs" to be nerfed, as teams are more or less equal in strength. And also, aliens are winning more games on pubs then marines by 2/1 ratio still - so it's the aliens that need to be nerfed then by your logic?
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+May 18 2004, 09:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ May 18 2004, 09:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want the tank onos/fade, go play 1.04. Of course you won't see many fades and very few oni in there, as you're not allowed to have fades until 2nd hive and oni until the 3rd so... Until then, try the teamplay. It works wonders, and makes pretty clear what needs to be nerfed and what needs to be left alone. And at this moment, nothing really "needs" to be nerfed, as teams are more or less equal in strength. And also, aliens are winning more games on pubs then marines by 2/1 ratio still - so it's the aliens that need to be nerfed then by your logic? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If onos aren't going to be tanks, why are they described as such?
Teamplay works fine, onos survive [and do wonders] now, they're just not tanks.
The aliens winning more would be due to a lack of good commanders, or all the good people stacking the alien team(which seems to happen a lot) since they're more fun to play when you're winning.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+May 18 2004, 09:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ May 18 2004, 09:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want the tank onos/fade, go play 1.04. Of course you won't see many fades and very few oni in there, as you're not allowed to have fades until 2nd hive and oni until the 3rd so... Until then, try the teamplay. It works wonders, and makes pretty clear what needs to be nerfed and what needs to be left alone. And at this moment, nothing really "needs" to be nerfed, as teams are more or less equal in strength. And also, aliens are winning more games on pubs then marines by 2/1 ratio still - so it's the aliens that need to be nerfed then by your logic? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true, a good marineteam will whoop the hell out of a equall good alien team. Ever thought about why all (european) top-games end up 1-1? Both clans win their marine round. Nerf LMG, remove bugged-giant KB, and give skulks the AP they had in 2.01. If you do this, <b> and fix the "invisible wall bug, also referred to as sparks" </b> the early game will be pretty much balanced, methinks. ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not true, a good marineteam will whoop the hell out of a equall good alien team. Ever thought about why all (european) top-games end up 1-1? Both clans win their marine round. Nerf LMG, remove bugged-giant KB, and give skulks the AP they had in 2.01. If you do this, <b> and fix the "invisible wall bug, also referred to as sparks" </b> the early game will be pretty much balanced, methinks. ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, while I'm not up to date to the latest clan statistics, the fact that you're completely not up to date with neither the updates, not beta fixes pretty much tells us all that you're not quite as "on top of it" as you want it to look. The "sparks" bug has been partially fixed in beta 4, and the rest is HL core engine bug - it has nothing to do with NS. Also, this quote alone<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> pretty much rests my case - skulk SHOULD die in that situation, inspite of his skill if marine has any aiming skills at all. Otherwise, why would aliens need higher lifeforms at all? Stop comparing skulk to lmg marine - skulk is inferior ON PURPOSE. That is to make fades highly desirable and valuable to the team. The fact that light scout class doesn't work when you use it for frontal assault doesn't mean that balance is flawed - it means that your approach is.
Skulk(s): The alien that you get your 2nd flow of res from, may be -somewhat- dangerous at melee, shoot it 9 times to kill it. May also hide on top of a room, look up when you enter room, shoot it. 2 res for commander.
Gorge: Kill it, jump OCs, ignore skulks kill the fatty, to slow to run away and equally useless in battle, may build a RT that you just knifed in a minute with your pal.
Lerk: Annoying gas, nerf it they must, walk by it or have a welder, or shoot it and make it take 10 seconds to regen from 8 LMG shots.
Fade: IMBA IMBA!!! GET THE SHIRTGUNS!
Onos: This guy dominates the shadows he runs to after eating our HA! Have a guy run behind him, LMGs rip this 'tank' apart in numbers of 3 and higher. Better if you have the 1337 HMG.
If they work together the average pubbies lose, if the marines work together, which if they do, you lose GGNORE.
The options the marines have beats the stiffness of khaara varity, and what can you do if you can't adapt because of this stiffness? GGNORE.
I had a 30 minute MS last stand on Hera, OCs blocked them in but lvl 3 upgrades kept the onoses away until HMGs and GLers, luckily I the fade took out their Arms Lab while they were fighting, I still wonder why they didn't kill me.
Who says you have to ACTIVELY tell your team you are setting up a pinser attack? When there are mariens outside our hive and my team mates are keeping them distracted, I will take the long vent around to their rear and attack them form behind, then when either a. Most of the team is dead and focusing on me b. a couple people are dead and most of the team is focusing on me or c. I have half of the marines distracted then that's when the other memebers of my TEAM make their move and rush in. Then if I"m still alive, everyone moves their attention to the large group of skulks and I attack again, simple. Pinser move completed correctly. And you're bitching about having to take the long way around to attack marines is what comes from no skill/fragmaster player that just wants to kill. I get on average about 50% more kills by using flanking maneuvers and pinser moves, even if my team doesn't. I'm thinking tactically while the rest of my team is rushing in and dieing left and right. Welcome to NS where team work is required on some level. I play on PUBs quite often, all the time actually. I have never played a PUG or clan game in my life. I just play pub games and I have found several good servers that are well admined and good players play on. The aliens actually use tactics and marines try to stay in groups of two at least.
As for weapon/creature balance, the only problem are the uberleet fades that hoard for fade. That's the only time I have problems with fades, when the player is as good as me! When the fade comes along, I don't care if it's uberleet or not. The first impulse of everyone is to "shoot and dodge." I can make a nice semi-circle around good fades because they don't expect it. Should I, a marine with maybe a 10 res shotgun, be able to solo a fade that is equally good? No, because shotguns aren't the anit-fade weapon, but HMGs. (20 damage a bullet x 50 bullets = 1000 damage = dead fade = gg.) Yes, two or three shotguns with LMG support can kill fades easily, but a smart fade WON'T rush into that situation. He'll wait for a skulk or something to rush in, and why they are scattered, rip appart the lone shotgunner and then blink out. And onos is a tank, if you go by modern definitions of tanks. Capable of massive damage by itself, but without proper support from other forces such as infantry to spot anti-tank emplacements and supress them and lighter vehicles to maneuver around and take them out, it is as good as dead. A single Abrams can not take on 2-3 T-55s with an equally skilled crew. The T-55s would easily destroy that one Abrams and suffer 1-2 loses. NS has and WILL always be based around team work. Ever since I started becoming serious about playing the game, I have recognized the skulk's weak areas and strengths and used them accordingly. (You would be surprised how many marines WON'T look above res towers till they have already been attacked one.) If you want skulks to be able to rip marines apart, then go play combat and be a super skulk. Don't come here complaining that marines are more powerful than a skulk and that a skulk should rip apart marines. A skulk can, I have done it. But not by rushign them, but by getting the drop on them and killing them quickly before they know what has happened to them.
As for MT, big deal. Like I said, marines don't check their minimaps so they won't know you're coming from behind, and many marines won't check behind them. Flank them, out number them, wait for them, what ever. But rushign marines has never worked except in the case of more than 4 skulks against a few marines. THe point of aliens is to get higher life forms to do the true fighting.
As for those skulks that do nothing but parasite, yes, they sit outside marine spawn and parasite the mariens as they come, munching the lone one that comes out. It's becuase those people recognize the importance of being able to see where marines are at all times. And when they start using phase gates to get out of marine start? They still HAVE to walk to other places or even to the phase gate.
Stop complaining about "imbalance" where it's just the server you're playing on. I have gone onto pub servers as an alien and killed marines easier than my team mates which were of the rushing mentallity. Using your brain does get you farther in this game then pure reflexes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+May 18 2004, 11:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ May 18 2004, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not true, a good marineteam will whoop the hell out of a equall good alien team. Ever thought about why all (european) top-games end up 1-1? Both clans win their marine round. Nerf LMG, remove bugged-giant KB, and give skulks the AP they had in 2.01. If you do this, <b> and fix the "invisible wall bug, also referred to as sparks" </b> the early game will be pretty much balanced, methinks. ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, while I'm not up to date to the latest clan statistics, the fact that you're completely not up to date with neither the updates, not beta fixes pretty much tells us all that you're not quite as "on top of it" as you want it to look. The "sparks" bug has been partially fixed in beta 4, and the rest is HL core engine bug - it has nothing to do with NS. Also, this quote alone<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> pretty much rests my case - skulk SHOULD die in that situation, inspite of his skill if marine has any aiming skills at all. Otherwise, why would aliens need higher lifeforms at all? Stop comparing skulk to lmg marine - skulk is inferior ON PURPOSE. That is to make fades highly desirable and valuable to the team. The fact that light scout class doesn't work when you use it for frontal assault doesn't mean that balance is flawed - it means that your approach is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, actually the sparkbug wasnt fixed, the only thing that was fixed was that Flay removed the actual sparks, but the hits still dont register. Proof: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70346' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=70346</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> pretty much rests my case - skulk SHOULD die in that situation, inspite of his skill if marine has any aiming skills at all. Otherwise, why would aliens need higher lifeforms at all? Stop comparing skulk to lmg marine - skulk is inferior ON PURPOSE. That is to make fades highly desirable and valuable to the team. The fact that light scout class doesn't work when you use it for frontal assault doesn't mean that balance is flawed - it means that your approach is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am talking about when you are close-up to a marine, in range to bite him. The marine still kills you faster than you kill him.
Armor is not free. It's a hefty investment. Even so, marine will NEVER have as much life as aliens will. A lone Fade has 250 life all by itself. Armor varies by its caprpace upgrade, which is only TWO resources. Armor, in the long run if its upgraded fully, can cost over 100 res. That means an alien can get a carpace upgrade 50 times for that amount. Besides, the reason alien RT's do not attack is because the res is not team based. A long guy builds a res tower to benifit the team with HIS money. The marines all work together to get res for the comm. I dont think any decrease in electric damage is necessary. We are now just trying to "make it easy for the aliens."
What ever happened to people bitching about aliens ALWAYS winning?!
In my opinion Marines should usually lose <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, it should be more that aliens spawn 2x as fast and marines have more powerful weapons, Think of the films, loads of aliens, only a few marines <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then again noone would play alien then <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Recoup+May 20 2004, 05:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Recoup @ May 20 2004, 05:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Armor is not free. It's a hefty investment. Even so, marine will NEVER have as much life as aliens will. A lone Fade has 250 life all by itself. Armor varies by its caprpace upgrade, which is only TWO resources. Armor, in the long run if its upgraded fully, can cost over 100 res. That means an alien can get a carpace upgrade 50 times for that amount. Besides, the reason alien RT's do not attack is because the res is not team based. A long guy builds a res tower to benifit the team with HIS money. The marines all work together to get res for the comm. I dont think any decrease in electric damage is necessary. We are now just trying to "make it easy for the aliens."
What ever happened to people bitching about aliens ALWAYS winning?! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When marines and aliens deal exactly the same damage in the same amount of time and both have equivalent methods of attack, then you can compare health and armour values in that way.
Well then let me think about this from another point of view. Any time BEFORE you get motion tracking, Aliens will always have the upper hand. You will rarely know where they are at, where they are coming from, and if there is a Fade out there you are all on the alert and need to travel in packs of three or more. When you get motion tracking, it only steps up the marine advantage to a more leveled playing field. Now they know where you are, but Aliens can still ambush. Remember, this is MOTION tracking, if you stay still it cant detect you, and aliens can still cloak and wait.
In my opinion? A Fade is as equal to a Heavy Armor Marine with a shotgun as anything, so when you have Fades facing off against level 1 marines then that doesnt seem really fair does it? Should we start decreasing Fade's life? How about increasing resource cost? There are a lot of things people WANT to see because of a lousy game when a guy has a Fade within the first 5 minutes, and everyone thinks that they need to be more costly, do less damage, or have less health because they got owned! That is a pathetic excuse, and I for one think NS needs to stay the same way as it is right now.
Well then let me think about this from another point of view. Any time BEFORE you get motion tracking, Aliens will always have the upper hand. You will rarely know where they are at, where they are coming from, and if there is a Fade out there you are all on the alert and need to travel in packs of three or more. When you get motion tracking, it only steps up the marine advantage to a more leveled playing field. Now they know where you are, but Aliens can still ambush. Remember, this is MOTION tracking, if you stay still it cant detect you, and aliens can still cloak and wait.
In my opinion? A Fade is as equal to a Heavy Armor Marine with a shotgun as anything, so when you have Fades facing off against level 1 marines then that doesnt seem really fair does it? Should we start decreasing Fade's life? How about increasing resource cost? There are a lot of things people WANT to see because of a lousy game when a guy has a Fade within the first 5 minutes, and everyone thinks that they need to be more costly, do less damage, or have less health because they got owned! That is a pathetic excuse, and I for one think NS needs to stay the same way as it is right now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> RIIIIGGGGHTTTT.... Marines gets MT and aliens stay put? LOL. Biggest joke ever. How long are you going to stand still there? Even with cloaking, SC is really a stupid chamber. If you get it up as the first chamber, beware comes the Level 1 armour and MT.
About fades, they are not realy l33t you know? With the current version, marines tend to control a lot of rts in the beginning-mid game. Thus, giving them enuf resources for a fast Damage/Armour of 2/1 and MT. Added to that, why not get the proto up in like 6 mins flat.
Aliens are indeed getting weaker and weaker as the versions come in. Like the other thread said, there's already no FEAR FACTOR for marine. It's more like a FEAR FACTOR for aliens.
i was about to call harpoon a nub, but i saw his join date and went "wow"
anyway it looks like you are having problems adjusting to the latest patch...rest assured...this is beta...dont expect perfection and since you dont pay for this game, dont expect things to be done because you said so..
I'm not sure who was the one to say this first, but the best way to describe the current situtation is "teams are balanced, players never are". Meaning that no matter the players, one side will always have the better players, and along with those, the advantage. And since it's entirely possible for both sides to have the advantage with pretty minimal skill shift (a couple of good players move to another team when teams are almost even is usually enough in pubs to turn the tides in mid-game), you can call the game balanced imo. Then we can compare one lifeform against a certain type of a marine - but what's the point in asymetrical strategy game? They'll never be "equal" and hence the comparison will always be flawed. P.S. The moment someone starts to talk about "winning" on public boards, I bug out from the conversation. Have fun being the "victor" in that sandbox level fight of yours <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
From playing consistently on USA western 20+ player servers, I conclude that marines are extremely overpowered (mainly referring to regular NS). GG.
Also, all you people posting comments without stating the size of the server (the max # of players allowed on the server) you normally play on are quite retarded.
An 8-16 player game is radically different than a 20-30 player game. If you don't know why that is... you obviously do not play enough. If you make comments about a particular issue on this forum, and you normally play on a 10 player server... your views are going to automatically conflict with those people who play on 20+ player servers.
Anyways, I'll say it again. On 20+ player servers, marines are overpowered (and I concluded that from a MARINE perspective). Alien resource system is stupid for the public venue. GG. This game is ridiculous now.
I used to hate combat. But now, I can't wait for it to roll around. Even though combat still has issues, it's still better than playing regular NS... as a marine walking around shooting at paper-like targets, or playing as alien and having to b|tch at all the new people and young kids who haven't a clue how to play.
Natural Selection 2, without an America's Army style central rating system will be a waste of time for the entire gaming community. Yet, since the majority of programmers (after the time of Doom) apparently like to waste resources and the time of all the real gamers within the community, I'm sure no one really cares.
Also, get new playtesters. Case in point: ns_lost. GG.
As stated, it really depends on the number of players on the team and how good they are. 50% of all games I play its either marines loose or aliens loose. There is no "its definate" theory for balancing. I go to a server with an experienced comm, we win 80% of the games. I got to a game with experienced Aliens, we win ALL the games. There is no "its balanced here" or "its unbalanced here". Its ALL ABOUT THE PLAYERS! Now, if we got an upgrade that, say, added an extra 10 damage to guns, that would be unfair, but seriously, stop bitching because of games where you lost to a skilled team. This is just like Counter Strike where a lot of CT players kick ****, and the T's are n00bs, and then when the CT's start winning the other team is yelling:
"M4 is too accurate!" "OMG Hax!" "OMG this gun sucks! It has low damage!"
I hear so much bitching im tired of it. I play NS and I enjoy all the games I go to because all the time there is a different outcome. However, due to constant bitching I guess we need to make the Onos have more health. Seeing as how it is vulnerable from all-around attacks, and has no projectile, I guess we can boost his HP by another 100 or armor by another 200.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Make pincer moves and use tactics? How come the marines dont have to do that? Wait, they just see you through the wall. This whole quote is screwed up. NS maps are not this huge, twisted clusterfuck of hallways loops so you can flank people all the time. They have a few main hallways and routes. You expect people to stop and go ALL the way around so you can flank someone that wont be there any more. And i dont have to check the mini map. I just look behind me every few seconds. I see how far away the aliens are from me from the motion tracking, flink my view around, look if there are any circles behind me, keep going. Pincer moves lol, ok, so now we have to communicate using voice com and arrange a pincer move with another skulk to kill marines... on a pub. And most importantly of all, it is really hard to ambush or flank if you dont know where the enemy is through the wall, because they'll move and you're ****.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Most</b> of the time if you have a mic, people <i>will</i> listen to you. First step is for you, though, actually suggesting and setting up the attack. In order for teamwork to work, you have to throw out ideas, tactics, and plans. If no one agrees with you, try another. If no one listens to you, say it again, and if they still dont, then <i><u>leave</u></i>. Find another server, see if those on it listen. If they do, stick it in your favorites, and keep going there. The first step to enjoying this game is finding enjoyable servers, which there are <b>plenty</b> of.
I saw these suggestions posted before, but I'm reposting them to show my support.
1. Have gorge cost 0 res. Aliens start with 15 res. (Delay early fades, alien res starvation problem will be alleviated somewhat)
2. Motion tracking to be limited to the range of the obs. (MT will still be an effective early warning system, but makes combat in the field more dangerour for the rines)
Comments
While not entirely a good measure of the idea, the alien commander suggestion has been popularly denied in I&S when it has been suggested. The general feeling being that it would make the two teams too similar.
In your version, if all you can do is talk, where is the incentive? The marine commander can have a lot of effect on a game. All your 'alien commander' can do is rely information and hope the other players are paying attention.
That means 70% of the time, the fade is the deciding factor if he hits at the right time
That means 70% of the time, the fade is the deciding factor if he hits at the right time <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
THAT IT EXACTLY the way I feel. The skulk, the basic marine and the Fade are far too different from each other in terms of balance and the amount of times they're used. Hard to say what to nerf and what to boost. My idea would be making the lmg less powerful and the fade less powerful.
That would also help with the "paper onos" problem.
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> really shouldn't be a hit-and-run(now with extra armor!) unit, if it's called a tank. They ought to be even slower, but really, really powerful. That way they're not going to run away(no hit-and-run) yet still not get totally owned.
If that was the case you would need to seriously nerf skulk speed in order to be balanced, something that would definetely be bad for the game's image. The reason why skulks are weak is because they can cover the map much faster and reach areas inaccessible to the marines. This allows them to plan ambushes easier, and respond much quicker.
You can imagine the consequences if you get a starting alien right now with the speed of a skulk and the ability to take down multiple marines of equal skill level. Everyone that <i>I've</i> talked to would quit NS if that ever happened.
Until then, try the teamplay. It works wonders, and makes pretty clear what needs to be nerfed and what needs to be left alone. And at this moment, nothing really "needs" to be nerfed, as teams are more or less equal in strength. And also, aliens are winning more games on pubs then marines by 2/1 ratio still - so it's the aliens that need to be nerfed then by your logic?
Until then, try the teamplay. It works wonders, and makes pretty clear what needs to be nerfed and what needs to be left alone. And at this moment, nothing really "needs" to be nerfed, as teams are more or less equal in strength. And also, aliens are winning more games on pubs then marines by 2/1 ratio still - so it's the aliens that need to be nerfed then by your logic? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If onos aren't going to be tanks, why are they described as such?
Teamplay works fine, onos survive [and do wonders] now, they're just not tanks.
The aliens winning more would be due to a lack of good commanders, or all the good people stacking the alien team(which seems to happen a lot) since they're more fun to play when you're winning.
Until then, try the teamplay. It works wonders, and makes pretty clear what needs to be nerfed and what needs to be left alone. And at this moment, nothing really "needs" to be nerfed, as teams are more or less equal in strength. And also, aliens are winning more games on pubs then marines by 2/1 ratio still - so it's the aliens that need to be nerfed then by your logic? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true, a good marineteam will whoop the hell out of a equall good alien team. Ever thought about why all (european) top-games end up 1-1? Both clans win their marine round.
Nerf LMG, remove bugged-giant KB, and give skulks the AP they had in 2.01. If you do this, <b> and fix the "invisible wall bug, also referred to as sparks" </b> the early game will be pretty much balanced, methinks. ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.
Nerf LMG, remove bugged-giant KB, and give skulks the AP they had in 2.01. If you do this, <b> and fix the "invisible wall bug, also referred to as sparks" </b> the early game will be pretty much balanced, methinks. ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, while I'm not up to date to the latest clan statistics, the fact that you're completely not up to date with neither the updates, not beta fixes pretty much tells us all that you're not quite as "on top of it" as you want it to look. The "sparks" bug has been partially fixed in beta 4, and the rest is HL core engine bug - it has nothing to do with NS. Also, this quote alone<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> pretty much rests my case - skulk SHOULD die in that situation, inspite of his skill if marine has any aiming skills at all. Otherwise, why would aliens need higher lifeforms at all?
Stop comparing skulk to lmg marine - skulk is inferior ON PURPOSE. That is to make fades highly desirable and valuable to the team. The fact that light scout class doesn't work when you use it for frontal assault doesn't mean that balance is flawed - it means that your approach is.
Dear NS team,
Please make the marines suck.
<3,
Me
Gorge: Kill it, jump OCs, ignore skulks kill the fatty, to slow to run away and equally useless in battle, may build a RT that you just knifed in a minute with your pal.
Lerk: Annoying gas, nerf it they must, walk by it or have a welder, or shoot it and make it take 10 seconds to regen from 8 LMG shots.
Fade: IMBA IMBA!!! GET THE SHIRTGUNS!
Onos: This guy dominates the shadows he runs to after eating our HA! Have a guy run behind him, LMGs rip this 'tank' apart in numbers of 3 and higher. Better if you have the 1337 HMG.
If they work together the average pubbies lose, if the marines work together, which if they do, you lose GGNORE.
The options the marines have beats the stiffness of khaara varity, and what can you do if you can't adapt because of this stiffness? GGNORE.
I had a 30 minute MS last stand on Hera, OCs blocked them in but lvl 3 upgrades kept the onoses away until HMGs and GLers, luckily I the fade took out their Arms Lab while they were fighting, I still wonder why they didn't kill me.
As for weapon/creature balance, the only problem are the uberleet fades that hoard for fade. That's the only time I have problems with fades, when the player is as good as me! When the fade comes along, I don't care if it's uberleet or not. The first impulse of everyone is to "shoot and dodge." I can make a nice semi-circle around good fades because they don't expect it. Should I, a marine with maybe a 10 res shotgun, be able to solo a fade that is equally good? No, because shotguns aren't the anit-fade weapon, but HMGs. (20 damage a bullet x 50 bullets = 1000 damage = dead fade = gg.) Yes, two or three shotguns with LMG support can kill fades easily, but a smart fade WON'T rush into that situation. He'll wait for a skulk or something to rush in, and why they are scattered, rip appart the lone shotgunner and then blink out. And onos is a tank, if you go by modern definitions of tanks. Capable of massive damage by itself, but without proper support from other forces such as infantry to spot anti-tank emplacements and supress them and lighter vehicles to maneuver around and take them out, it is as good as dead. A single Abrams can not take on 2-3 T-55s with an equally skilled crew. The T-55s would easily destroy that one Abrams and suffer 1-2 loses. NS has and WILL always be based around team work. Ever since I started becoming serious about playing the game, I have recognized the skulk's weak areas and strengths and used them accordingly. (You would be surprised how many marines WON'T look above res towers till they have already been attacked one.) If you want skulks to be able to rip marines apart, then go play combat and be a super skulk. Don't come here complaining that marines are more powerful than a skulk and that a skulk should rip apart marines. A skulk can, I have done it. But not by rushign them, but by getting the drop on them and killing them quickly before they know what has happened to them.
As for MT, big deal. Like I said, marines don't check their minimaps so they won't know you're coming from behind, and many marines won't check behind them. Flank them, out number them, wait for them, what ever. But rushign marines has never worked except in the case of more than 4 skulks against a few marines. THe point of aliens is to get higher life forms to do the true fighting.
As for those skulks that do nothing but parasite, yes, they sit outside marine spawn and parasite the mariens as they come, munching the lone one that comes out. It's becuase those people recognize the importance of being able to see where marines are at all times. And when they start using phase gates to get out of marine start? They still HAVE to walk to other places or even to the phase gate.
Stop complaining about "imbalance" where it's just the server you're playing on. I have gone onto pub servers as an alien and killed marines easier than my team mates which were of the rushing mentallity. Using your brain does get you farther in this game then pure reflexes.
Nerf LMG, remove bugged-giant KB, and give skulks the AP they had in 2.01. If you do this, <b> and fix the "invisible wall bug, also referred to as sparks" </b> the early game will be pretty much balanced, methinks. ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, while I'm not up to date to the latest clan statistics, the fact that you're completely not up to date with neither the updates, not beta fixes pretty much tells us all that you're not quite as "on top of it" as you want it to look. The "sparks" bug has been partially fixed in beta 4, and the rest is HL core engine bug - it has nothing to do with NS. Also, this quote alone<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ATM a lvl0 marine kill a lvl0 skulk faster than the skulks kills him, thats why you almost always will die if you don't approach a marine sideways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> pretty much rests my case - skulk SHOULD die in that situation, inspite of his skill if marine has any aiming skills at all. Otherwise, why would aliens need higher lifeforms at all?
Stop comparing skulk to lmg marine - skulk is inferior ON PURPOSE. That is to make fades highly desirable and valuable to the team. The fact that light scout class doesn't work when you use it for frontal assault doesn't mean that balance is flawed - it means that your approach is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, actually the sparkbug wasnt fixed, the only thing that was fixed was that Flay removed the actual sparks, but the hits still dont register.
Proof: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70346' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=70346</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
pretty much rests my case - skulk SHOULD die in that situation, inspite of his skill if marine has any aiming skills at all. Otherwise, why would aliens need higher lifeforms at all?
Stop comparing skulk to lmg marine - skulk is inferior ON PURPOSE. That is to make fades highly desirable and valuable to the team. The fact that light scout class doesn't work when you use it for frontal assault doesn't mean that balance is flawed - it means that your approach is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am talking about when you are close-up to a marine, in range to bite him. The marine still kills you faster than you kill him.
GG I win, please try again.
What ever happened to people bitching about aliens ALWAYS winning?!
However, it should be more that aliens spawn 2x as fast and marines have more powerful weapons, Think of the films, loads of aliens, only a few marines <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then again noone would play alien then <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What ever happened to people bitching about aliens ALWAYS winning?! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
When marines and aliens deal exactly the same damage in the same amount of time and both have equivalent methods of attack, then you can compare health and armour values in that way.
Well then let me think about this from another point of view. Any time BEFORE you get motion tracking, Aliens will always have the upper hand. You will rarely know where they are at, where they are coming from, and if there is a Fade out there you are all on the alert and need to travel in packs of three or more. When you get motion tracking, it only steps up the marine advantage to a more leveled playing field. Now they know where you are, but Aliens can still ambush. Remember, this is MOTION tracking, if you stay still it cant detect you, and aliens can still cloak and wait.
In my opinion? A Fade is as equal to a Heavy Armor Marine with a shotgun as anything, so when you have Fades facing off against level 1 marines then that doesnt seem really fair does it? Should we start decreasing Fade's life? How about increasing resource cost? There are a lot of things people WANT to see because of a lousy game when a guy has a Fade within the first 5 minutes, and everyone thinks that they need to be more costly, do less damage, or have less health because they got owned! That is a pathetic excuse, and I for one think NS needs to stay the same way as it is right now.
Well then let me think about this from another point of view. Any time BEFORE you get motion tracking, Aliens will always have the upper hand. You will rarely know where they are at, where they are coming from, and if there is a Fade out there you are all on the alert and need to travel in packs of three or more. When you get motion tracking, it only steps up the marine advantage to a more leveled playing field. Now they know where you are, but Aliens can still ambush. Remember, this is MOTION tracking, if you stay still it cant detect you, and aliens can still cloak and wait.
In my opinion? A Fade is as equal to a Heavy Armor Marine with a shotgun as anything, so when you have Fades facing off against level 1 marines then that doesnt seem really fair does it? Should we start decreasing Fade's life? How about increasing resource cost? There are a lot of things people WANT to see because of a lousy game when a guy has a Fade within the first 5 minutes, and everyone thinks that they need to be more costly, do less damage, or have less health because they got owned! That is a pathetic excuse, and I for one think NS needs to stay the same way as it is right now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
RIIIIGGGGHTTTT.... Marines gets MT and aliens stay put? LOL. Biggest joke ever. How long are you going to stand still there? Even with cloaking, SC is really a stupid chamber. If you get it up as the first chamber, beware comes the Level 1 armour and MT.
About fades, they are not realy l33t you know? With the current version, marines tend to control a lot of rts in the beginning-mid game. Thus, giving them enuf resources for a fast Damage/Armour of 2/1 and MT. Added to that, why not get the proto up in like 6 mins flat.
Aliens are indeed getting weaker and weaker as the versions come in. Like the other thread said, there's already no FEAR FACTOR for marine. It's more like a FEAR FACTOR for aliens.
anyway it looks like you are having problems adjusting to the latest patch...rest assured...this is beta...dont expect perfection and since you dont pay for this game, dont expect things to be done because you said so..
P.S. The moment someone starts to talk about "winning" on public boards, I bug out from the conversation. Have fun being the "victor" in that sandbox level fight of yours <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
From playing consistently on USA western 20+ player servers, I conclude that marines are extremely overpowered (mainly referring to regular NS). GG.
Also, all you people posting comments without stating the size of the server (the max # of players allowed on the server) you normally play on are quite retarded.
An 8-16 player game is radically different than a 20-30 player game. If you don't know why that is... you obviously do not play enough. If you make comments about a particular issue on this forum, and you normally play on a 10 player server... your views are going to automatically conflict with those people who play on 20+ player servers.
Anyways, I'll say it again. On 20+ player servers, marines are overpowered (and I concluded that from a MARINE perspective). Alien resource system is stupid for the public venue. GG. This game is ridiculous now.
I used to hate combat. But now, I can't wait for it to roll around. Even though combat still has issues, it's still better than playing regular NS... as a marine walking around shooting at paper-like targets, or playing as alien and having to b|tch at all the new people and young kids who haven't a clue how to play.
Natural Selection 2, without an America's Army style central rating system will be a waste of time for the entire gaming community. Yet, since the majority of programmers (after the time of Doom) apparently like to waste resources and the time of all the real gamers within the community, I'm sure no one really cares.
Also, get new playtesters. Case in point: ns_lost. GG.
"M4 is too accurate!"
"OMG Hax!"
"OMG this gun sucks! It has low damage!"
I hear so much bitching im tired of it. I play NS and I enjoy all the games I go to because all the time there is a different outcome. However, due to constant bitching I guess we need to make the Onos have more health. Seeing as how it is vulnerable from all-around attacks, and has no projectile, I guess we can boost his HP by another 100 or armor by another 200.
<b>Most</b> of the time if you have a mic, people <i>will</i> listen to you. First step is for you, though, actually suggesting and setting up the attack. In order for teamwork to work, you have to throw out ideas, tactics, and plans. If no one agrees with you, try another. If no one listens to you, say it again, and if they still dont, then <i><u>leave</u></i>. Find another server, see if those on it listen. If they do, stick it in your favorites, and keep going there. The first step to enjoying this game is finding enjoyable servers, which there are <b>plenty</b> of.
[this is not totally related to the last post, but still]
1. Have gorge cost 0 res. Aliens start with 15 res. (Delay early fades, alien res starvation problem will be alleviated somewhat)
2. Motion tracking to be limited to the range of the obs. (MT will still be an effective early warning system, but makes combat in the field more dangerour for the rines)