It seems a picture (or as close as those are to pictures) are worth a thousand words after all. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And I tend to agree... (although in your diagram of the current slippery slope, the marine side could be a tad less slippery)... When the marines are losing, it seems that they try to hold off their loss as long as possible. They know, that even if they'd loose, they can go down killing things. But the aliens? It seems the best they can do in a loosing situation, is throw their bodies at the marines, hoping to burry them alive under the weight of their carcases... or go off and sneak a hive or hide in a vent with DCs; both of which only delay the inevitable...
Main trouble is when aliens are dying, gestate times really prevent any chance of a comeback. Marines can beacon and spam Shotties in spawn, aliens can't really do anything but roll over and die.
Perhaps let you gestate while dead? You respawn when the gestate time has finised regardles of the queue. (so 2 res for faster respawn as a skulk) and appear in your chosen form. This way aliens with loads of res could make a comback as the hive is sieged by resapawing as an onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-d0omie+May 9 2004, 04:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (d0omie @ May 9 2004, 04:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Perhaps let you gestate while dead? You respawn when the gestate time has finised regardles of the queue. (so 2 res for faster respawn as a skulk) and appear in your chosen form. This way aliens with loads of res could make a comback as the hive is sieged by resapawing as an onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't like this idea at all. Its nothing personal, I just don't think that it would <i>fit</i>. Seriously, the only thing it would solve is if you are losing a game and have several res ****rs, and would definetly be abused by clans (respawn time is shorter than evolution to onos for example), not to mention the huge amount of testing that would be required to balance it.
<!--QuoteBegin-d0omie+May 9 2004, 06:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (d0omie @ May 9 2004, 06:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Main trouble is when aliens are dying, gestate times really prevent any chance of a comeback. Marines can beacon and spam Shotties in spawn, aliens can't really do anything but roll over and die. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Close, but I don't think so.
The thing is, the slopes on each side are different. The marines have a very gentle one, so it's easy to push back after a loss, the aliens have a very sharp one, so it's much tougher. The only thing that balances this out is that really the aliens are so much stronger in power near the top of their slope.
There are two ways we can address this. The first is making the slope less steep for aliens. To do that, we raise the bottom end (and perhaps lower the top end slightly at the same time to balance it out)
The main trouble as I see it for aliens is that those that die come back as <i>vanilla skulks.</i> In mid-late game, a vanilla skulk is more or less marine RFK on four legs.
So let's raise that bottom end. Aliens that die respawn with all their upgrades intact. Whenever they evolve to a different alien, they lose their current upgrades. Lowering the top end can be done simply by extending the time and cost it takes to upgrade when you're a higher evolution. (If you need a realism reason, it takes a lot longer to apply a change through the entirety of a larger alien)
The second way to address this is making the slope more steep for marines. This is also fairly easy. Have them spawn as L0/L0 non-MT marines. For each upgrade they want, they have to go to the appropriate building and use it. So for MT they'd go use the obs, better weapons might see them having to use the armory an additional time after loading up completely, etc. It's not a signficant disadvantage, but it means they do have to spend more time running around their base, and in the middle of the end-game turtle, that could be enough.
Alien slope is currently far steeper than marine slope because the aliens forget to play defense on their hives. As games progress, the aliens quickly lose sight of using structures to protect hives, instead getting focused on taking down marine structures and marines. The marines, unless they are a well practiced clan that knows how to use jp's perfectly, use defense as much as possible. When the ultra offensive alien team is out attacking marines by themselves, a marine or two sneaks near a hive, builds phase/tf and then hive goes down.
Marines, by default, try to use defense as their offense. Alien defense is usually weak in comparison, particularly since gorges don't put up many DC's and OC's in hives to slow marines down. Instead (I blame some of this on combat) gorges end up trying to support unorganized alien offensives. Ever been near an Kharaa res ungaurded? It does down in approximately 25-30 seconds. If their are two OC's guarding it, it will take a full squad of marines, especially early on, to clear that position, that happening only if the aliens don't notice the res tower's blinking red light saying "help me". The problem is that aliens are usually ultra offensive, which works in some games. If you'll notice though, the one thing that seals the marine's fate in a long game where marines are forced to stay closer and closer to base is the forts of OC/DC/SC guarded by a few skulks. These will take marines so long to cut through, by the time they do, they will be under attack by a slew of aliens, giving some gorges enough time to start erecting the forts again.
If aliens applied this philosophy outside their hives, it would give them some valuble time to reorganize themselves in an intense game, and be able to comeback. If it takes sieges to take out defenses outside of the hive, the marines have just used all that time to get prepared to take out a hive, so the aliens have had enough time to gestate into some fades/onos which gives them the chance to delay the marines and even push them back.
The problem is that the aliens. by default are ultra offensive, and the marines lean a little to the defensive side, using defense as offense. Aliens just need to learn how to counter this by building large defenses that take a good amount of time to get through. If aliens work as a team, this shouldn't be a tremendously difficult issue.
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+May 9 2004, 06:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ May 9 2004, 06:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alien slope is currently far steeper than marine slope because the aliens forget to play defense on their hives. As games progress, the aliens quickly lose sight of using structures to protect hives, instead getting focused on taking down marine structures and marines. The marines, unless they are a well practiced clan that knows how to use jp's perfectly, use defense as much as possible. When the ultra offensive alien team is out attacking marines by themselves, a marine or two sneaks near a hive, builds phase/tf and then hive goes down.
Marines, by default, try to use defense as their offense. Alien defense is usually weak in comparison, particularly since gorges don't put up many DC's and OC's in hives to slow marines down. Instead (I blame some of this on combat) gorges end up trying to support unorganized alien offensives. Ever been near an Kharaa res ungaurded? It does down in approximately 25-30 seconds. If their are two OC's guarding it, it will take a full squad of marines, especially early on, to clear that position, that happening only if the aliens don't notice the res tower's blinking red light saying "help me". The problem is that aliens are usually ultra offensive, which works in some games. If you'll notice though, the one thing that seals the marine's fate in a long game where marines are forced to stay closer and closer to base is the forts of OC/DC/SC guarded by a few skulks. These will take marines so long to cut through, by the time they do, they will be under attack by a slew of aliens, giving some gorges enough time to start erecting the forts again.
If aliens applied this philosophy outside their hives, it would give them some valuble time to reorganize themselves in an intense game, and be able to comeback. If it takes sieges to take out defenses outside of the hive, the marines have just used all that time to get prepared to take out a hive, so the aliens have had enough time to gestate into some fades/onos which gives them the chance to delay the marines and even push them back.
The problem is that the aliens. by default are ultra offensive, and the marines lean a little to the defensive side, using defense as offense. Aliens just need to learn how to counter this by building large defenses that take a good amount of time to get through. If aliens work as a team, this shouldn't be a tremendously difficult issue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, the main problem is that the alien's static defenses are not all that great for hive defense unless you have a lot of them, and a lot of them costs too muh res to be cost effective. Even then, 20 res spent by the comm totally negates the protection they give, which can easily be made back by recycling the same chair once marines are in and the hive is dead.
Then there's sieges, which turn the hives defenses against the aliens themselves.
I think there are two..actually three questions here, that are kind of going right past each other..
#1. Alien Victory Endgame:Personally, I think this is fun, from the point of view of both the Alien and the Marine, so I don't really think this is a problem. However, if it is, the reason why this exists is the lack of any sort of Alien siege weapon. The rines have the siege gun, which can take down a well defended hive in within a minute, usually. IF the marnines had to run into that final hive and take it down with guns..well, it might get just as bad.
Again, I don't think this is really a problem that needs fixing. If it does, maybe another building for the gorge, one that hurts all rine structuers even through walls within a wide area? Very slowly, twice the time it takes to recycle something. Make it rather expensive..35 res and take at least 2 hives to build.
I don't think that this is a real problem however. The only real non-endgame use is to take down locked down hives, and frankly, fades are great for that. already.
#2. Combat "in the balance". I actually find that the way things work, in Combat, either team can win at any moment. Even with the timelimit, one good push of the Marine team can go right for the hive, HMGs clearing the way for 2 GLs which will take the hive down very quickly. For the original post, someone mentioning joining combat late, usually when I join late, I just tag along with Heavies/Fades and get good exp that way. It works well.
#3. Classic "in the balance". This is actually fairly easy as well. Because of spawn rates and marine building conventions, the Aliens need 2 hives to compete. Period. The quicker the 2nd hive goes up, the better.
The only real problem I see, is that there's no real reason I think for Skulks to upgrade. In the beginning, there are no DCs, and once the rines get a few upgrades, I think the Carapace and other upgrades are not worth 2 res, that can be better used saving for advanced forms.
So I think Skulk upgrades should be 1 res each instead of 2.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+May 9 2004, 01:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ May 9 2004, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is that the aliens. by default are ultra offensive, and the marines lean a little to the defensive side, using defense as offense. Aliens just need to learn how to counter this by building large defenses that take a good amount of time to get through. If aliens work as a team, this shouldn't be a tremendously difficult issue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Alien static defense? Don't make me laugh. OCs can be either killed by 2-3 LMG clips from a safe position around the corner (just make sure the centerpoint of the OC don't see you, and it won't fire), or you can just rush, jump and go, possibly with some healthpack support if all you want to do is to get by them.
Finally, if you spent an Onos worth of OC's to actually make it difference, those 80 res worth of OC's are completly negated by the commander dropping an OC to draw their attention while the sneaky marine builds a PG inside your defenses. At a cost of 4 res to negate 80 res worth of defenses, it's a steal.
Even if the commander out of a sense of fairness refrains from the CC drop, a siege will clear out any defenses for far cheaper than you paid to put them up.
I have tried building static defenses. Unless you stay with them as gorge at all times, they are worthless. Even if you DO stay with them, two marines will deliver more damage than you can heal, even using adrenaline and even if the marines are only using LMGs.
The only time static defenses are useful is if you can build them at a chokepoint that the marines actually have to pass - ie, NOT in the hive (and even then, the CC drop will negate it).
I would love if static defense was worth it, but it's not. It's far better and cheaper to invest in a Fade for 50 res that spends his time patrolling the hive, or a skulk jumping the MC's and listening. Of course, that's quite BORING, which is why you don't see it much in public plays.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that the aliens. by default are ultra offensive, and the marines lean a little to the defensive side, using defense as offense. Aliens just need to learn how to counter this by building large defenses that take a good amount of time to get through. If aliens work as a team, this shouldn't be a tremendously difficult issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens do not have any defensive capabilities. Their defense is the aliens themselves, which is a problem because alien cannot be protecting all their structures at once. Marines power is their structures, and the ability for their buildings to defend themselves. Of course, marines get better offensive capabilities, and with phases and JPs, better mobility. And what's this about aliens building large defenses to counter marine expantion? Thats just asking to be sieged, which can take most any alien encampment down in about 30 seconds.
Aliens are very much not the "ultra offensive" types. Aliens do not get damage increasing techs (focus actually decreases overall dmg) and all alien weapons do basically the same damage. Bite = 75, Swipe = 80, Onos Claw = 90 compare that to marines 10 dmg/bullet on L0 LMG to 26 dmg/bullet on L3 HMG. A damage output increase of 160% and thats not including GLs or sieges, which increase marine damage potential through the roof. Compare that to alien increase of .... 20% from skulk to onos. Marines are far more powerful offensively.
One thing you did say right, is that aliens have to work as a team. Even moreso than marines do, which is ironic in my view, but hey, its a team based game.
My conclusion: the author of this comment is the guy who is always stacking marines. My recommendation: play aliens before commenting on them. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+May 9 2004, 12:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ May 9 2004, 12:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have them spawn as L0/L0 non-MT marines. For each upgrade they want, they have to go to the appropriate building and use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What a great idea! I haven't heard it before... using the buildings to get the upgrades... that sounds fun!
Comments
And I tend to agree... (although in your diagram of the current slippery slope, the marine side could be a tad less slippery)... When the marines are losing, it seems that they try to hold off their loss as long as possible. They know, that even if they'd loose, they can go down killing things. But the aliens? It seems the best they can do in a loosing situation, is throw their bodies at the marines, hoping to burry them alive under the weight of their carcases... or go off and sneak a hive or hide in a vent with DCs; both of which only delay the inevitable...
Perhaps let you gestate while dead? You respawn when the gestate time has finised regardles of the queue. (so 2 res for faster respawn as a skulk) and appear in your chosen form. This way aliens with loads of res could make a comback as the hive is sieged by resapawing as an onos.
I really don't like this idea at all. Its nothing personal, I just don't think that it would <i>fit</i>. Seriously, the only thing it would solve is if you are losing a game and have several res ****rs, and would definetly be abused by clans (respawn time is shorter than evolution to onos for example), not to mention the huge amount of testing that would be required to balance it.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Close, but I don't think so.
The thing is, the slopes on each side are different. The marines have a very gentle one, so it's easy to push back after a loss, the aliens have a very sharp one, so it's much tougher. The only thing that balances this out is that really the aliens are so much stronger in power near the top of their slope.
There are two ways we can address this. The first is making the slope less steep for aliens. To do that, we raise the bottom end (and perhaps lower the top end slightly at the same time to balance it out)
The main trouble as I see it for aliens is that those that die come back as <i>vanilla skulks.</i> In mid-late game, a vanilla skulk is more or less marine RFK on four legs.
So let's raise that bottom end. Aliens that die respawn with all their upgrades intact. Whenever they evolve to a different alien, they lose their current upgrades. Lowering the top end can be done simply by extending the time and cost it takes to upgrade when you're a higher evolution. (If you need a realism reason, it takes a lot longer to apply a change through the entirety of a larger alien)
The second way to address this is making the slope more steep for marines. This is also fairly easy. Have them spawn as L0/L0 non-MT marines. For each upgrade they want, they have to go to the appropriate building and use it. So for MT they'd go use the obs, better weapons might see them having to use the armory an additional time after loading up completely, etc. It's not a signficant disadvantage, but it means they do have to spend more time running around their base, and in the middle of the end-game turtle, that could be enough.
Marines, by default, try to use defense as their offense. Alien defense is usually weak in comparison, particularly since gorges don't put up many DC's and OC's in hives to slow marines down. Instead (I blame some of this on combat) gorges end up trying to support unorganized alien offensives. Ever been near an Kharaa res ungaurded? It does down in approximately 25-30 seconds. If their are two OC's guarding it, it will take a full squad of marines, especially early on, to clear that position, that happening only if the aliens don't notice the res tower's blinking red light saying "help me". The problem is that aliens are usually ultra offensive, which works in some games. If you'll notice though, the one thing that seals the marine's fate in a long game where marines are forced to stay closer and closer to base is the forts of OC/DC/SC guarded by a few skulks. These will take marines so long to cut through, by the time they do, they will be under attack by a slew of aliens, giving some gorges enough time to start erecting the forts again.
If aliens applied this philosophy outside their hives, it would give them some valuble time to reorganize themselves in an intense game, and be able to comeback. If it takes sieges to take out defenses outside of the hive, the marines have just used all that time to get prepared to take out a hive, so the aliens have had enough time to gestate into some fades/onos which gives them the chance to delay the marines and even push them back.
The problem is that the aliens. by default are ultra offensive, and the marines lean a little to the defensive side, using defense as offense. Aliens just need to learn how to counter this by building large defenses that take a good amount of time to get through. If aliens work as a team, this shouldn't be a tremendously difficult issue.
Marines, by default, try to use defense as their offense. Alien defense is usually weak in comparison, particularly since gorges don't put up many DC's and OC's in hives to slow marines down. Instead (I blame some of this on combat) gorges end up trying to support unorganized alien offensives. Ever been near an Kharaa res ungaurded? It does down in approximately 25-30 seconds. If their are two OC's guarding it, it will take a full squad of marines, especially early on, to clear that position, that happening only if the aliens don't notice the res tower's blinking red light saying "help me". The problem is that aliens are usually ultra offensive, which works in some games. If you'll notice though, the one thing that seals the marine's fate in a long game where marines are forced to stay closer and closer to base is the forts of OC/DC/SC guarded by a few skulks. These will take marines so long to cut through, by the time they do, they will be under attack by a slew of aliens, giving some gorges enough time to start erecting the forts again.
If aliens applied this philosophy outside their hives, it would give them some valuble time to reorganize themselves in an intense game, and be able to comeback. If it takes sieges to take out defenses outside of the hive, the marines have just used all that time to get prepared to take out a hive, so the aliens have had enough time to gestate into some fades/onos which gives them the chance to delay the marines and even push them back.
The problem is that the aliens. by default are ultra offensive, and the marines lean a little to the defensive side, using defense as offense. Aliens just need to learn how to counter this by building large defenses that take a good amount of time to get through. If aliens work as a team, this shouldn't be a tremendously difficult issue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the main problem is that the alien's static defenses are not all that great for hive defense unless you have a lot of them, and a lot of them costs too muh res to be cost effective. Even then, 20 res spent by the comm totally negates the protection they give, which can easily be made back by recycling the same chair once marines are in and the hive is dead.
Then there's sieges, which turn the hives defenses against the aliens themselves.
#1. Alien Victory Endgame:Personally, I think this is fun, from the point of view of both the Alien and the Marine, so I don't really think this is a problem. However, if it is, the reason why this exists is the lack of any sort of Alien siege weapon. The rines have the siege gun, which can take down a well defended hive in within a minute, usually. IF the marnines had to run into that final hive and take it down with guns..well, it might get just as bad.
Again, I don't think this is really a problem that needs fixing. If it does, maybe another building for the gorge, one that hurts all rine structuers even through walls within a wide area? Very slowly, twice the time it takes to recycle something. Make it rather expensive..35 res and take at least 2 hives to build.
I don't think that this is a real problem however. The only real non-endgame use is to take down locked down hives, and frankly, fades are great for that. already.
#2. Combat "in the balance". I actually find that the way things work, in Combat, either team can win at any moment. Even with the timelimit, one good push of the Marine team can go right for the hive, HMGs clearing the way for 2 GLs which will take the hive down very quickly. For the original post, someone mentioning joining combat late, usually when I join late, I just tag along with Heavies/Fades and get good exp that way. It works well.
#3. Classic "in the balance". This is actually fairly easy as well. Because of spawn rates and marine building conventions, the Aliens need 2 hives to compete. Period. The quicker the 2nd hive goes up, the better.
The only real problem I see, is that there's no real reason I think for Skulks to upgrade. In the beginning, there are no DCs, and once the rines get a few upgrades, I think the Carapace and other upgrades are not worth 2 res, that can be better used saving for advanced forms.
So I think Skulk upgrades should be 1 res each instead of 2.
Alien static defense? Don't make me laugh. OCs can be either killed by 2-3 LMG clips from a safe position around the corner (just make sure the centerpoint of the OC don't see you, and it won't fire), or you can just rush, jump and go, possibly with some healthpack support if all you want to do is to get by them.
Finally, if you spent an Onos worth of OC's to actually make it difference, those 80 res worth of OC's are completly negated by the commander dropping an OC to draw their attention while the sneaky marine builds a PG inside your defenses. At a cost of 4 res to negate 80 res worth of defenses, it's a steal.
Even if the commander out of a sense of fairness refrains from the CC drop, a siege will clear out any defenses for far cheaper than you paid to put them up.
I have tried building static defenses. Unless you stay with them as gorge at all times, they are worthless. Even if you DO stay with them, two marines will deliver more damage than you can heal, even using adrenaline and even if the marines are only using LMGs.
The only time static defenses are useful is if you can build them at a chokepoint that the marines actually have to pass - ie, NOT in the hive (and even then, the CC drop will negate it).
I would love if static defense was worth it, but it's not. It's far better and cheaper to invest in a Fade for 50 res that spends his time patrolling the hive, or a skulk jumping the MC's and listening. Of course, that's quite BORING, which is why you don't see it much in public plays.
Aliens do not have any defensive capabilities. Their defense is the aliens themselves, which is a problem because alien cannot be protecting all their structures at once. Marines power is their structures, and the ability for their buildings to defend themselves. Of course, marines get better offensive capabilities, and with phases and JPs, better mobility. And what's this about aliens building large defenses to counter marine expantion? Thats just asking to be sieged, which can take most any alien encampment down in about 30 seconds.
Aliens are very much not the "ultra offensive" types. Aliens do not get damage increasing techs (focus actually decreases overall dmg) and all alien weapons do basically the same damage. Bite = 75, Swipe = 80, Onos Claw = 90 compare that to marines 10 dmg/bullet on L0 LMG to 26 dmg/bullet on L3 HMG. A damage output increase of 160% and thats not including GLs or sieges, which increase marine damage potential through the roof. Compare that to alien increase of .... 20% from skulk to onos. Marines are far more powerful offensively.
One thing you did say right, is that aliens have to work as a team. Even moreso than marines do, which is ironic in my view, but hey, its a team based game.
My conclusion: the author of this comment is the guy who is always stacking marines.
My recommendation: play aliens before commenting on them.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What a great idea! I haven't heard it before... using the buildings to get the upgrades... that sounds fun!