Good Openings

AvitarAvitar Join Date: 2003-09-11 Member: 20760Members
edited May 2004 in Frontiersmen Strategy
<div class="IPBDescription">Com opening strats....</div> In most games try not to drop more than 1 building at a time for marines to build, unless you have a huge team 10 or more players on rines, in which you should drop 2 at a time.

This is built on the buisiness concept of JIT (Just in time). First many rines dont realize what buildings are more important, and which are less important at crucial times in the game. If it is crowded around a building you are also likely to have 1 or 2 marines gaurd which is important since good coms know they are the best defense gainst the aliens.

You should have the next building already selected so you only have to click on the placement. This way rines always build the most important structures first.

I usually open with buildings in the following order (looking somthing like this):

Electrify the TF
Upgrade armory
Arms lab
Another IP

if you place the structures tightly together just right, you can have the electrified tf protect all of them since electrification is based on a radius. In addition rines dont have to spend time building turrets, or gaurding base, so they can immediately move out and get you RT's.

I generally have no one stay at base and either have the spawning rines build, or hop out of the chair and build an obs if they are kicking **** and are staying alive so i can PG them back to build.

more to come =)

smart rines will also stand on top of the electrified tf if rine start is being rushed, which means it will be easy to defend, needing only to put about 5 bullets into a hurt skulk.

this will also give you the 4 min hmgs to kill any fade or onos you have to deal with. Drop 1 - 2 hmgs for every squad of 3-4 rines and you will usually dominate if they can aim at all (if not you already lost).

many may not like this stratagy, and it is worth noting it is primarly for pubs since in clan play someone will almost always save for early fade or onos.

in most pubs nearly every game there will be an early alien rush of 25 - 75 % of the team, this stops those rushes dead in their tracks.

mines (which are popular) seem more like a waste for numerous reasons:
-> usually improperly placed (or not at all)
-> one time use
-> they are avoided easily since they are no-longer invisable (except on some modded servers)

you should be flexable, but this is one great opening strat that makes a great changup to the standard arms lab rush. static stratagies (such as aliens always getting DC, MC, then SC). is a horrible stratagy that will put you at a disadvantage.
First your opponents will see your pattern and exploit it to judge exactly where you are, and what strength you are. be flexable and dont be afraid to experiment.

although i have tryed doezens of strats this is one of the top 3 for pubs... I rarely lose when i com. these strats come from about an 80% win ratio and tens of thousands of games on hundreds of servers (3-5 hours a night, 6 days a week).

PS: If your com has 15 or less res continuesly the entire game no matter how many nodes you have... he is probly doing a great job. a Res whorin com accomplishes nothing. then again spamming your res away does nothing for you.
If you have the permenet built structures to show for it, your com is doing his/her job.


  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
    I can finally start criticizing people, yes!

    Unfortunately, your starting strategy is crippled by your electrified turret factory strategy. 40 res for base protection is pretty brutal. 1 or 2 packs of mines should work well enough. In fact, with your strategy, you probably won't see your A1 until about 3-4 minutes into the game, and that's a disaster for your marines.

    You have to cut some corners, mines are the most underrated forms of defense (despite the fact that many people in the forums laud them so much, as I do too), not only are they semi renewable, and they are highly frustrating for base rushers (skulks).

    Frankly, the elec tf strat really doesn't cut it, a competent alien team will see to it, however, many commanders tend to get complacement with strategies which aren't that good, because they work well against disastrously incompetent alien pub teams. Trust me, I had to learn the hard way.
  • CheeseCheese Lork on the Clorf Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24396Members, Constellation
    give them two or three buildings to build and check the main hive meanwhile.

    + you dont loose time
  • Fat_Man_Little_CoatFat_Man_Little_Coat Join Date: 2003-12-02 Member: 23857Members
    Depends on the map and team. On servers I'm familiar with I will modify my gameplan depending on who's on which team. Some guys will **** to onos, so if they're aliens I focus on the res towers, some will drop sensory first, so I focus on locking down the 2nd hive.

    Generally, I refer to purpose of the weapons and structures for building. If the map is designed so that the flow is pretty predictable and even (NS_Origin), I'll send the marines in the opposite direction of the aliens and focus on quick expansion. I'll use mines to guard base/IPs early on, and then on a hive lockdown. Usually I'll choose to drop an Obvs early to get phase tech going as well.

    If the map is more intensive, with a less predictable amount of map flow (NS_Nothing) where the aliens can get around quick and easy, then I focus on upgrading my guys. And in the case of the obv I'll probably (not always) choose motion tracking over phase tech.

    Overall though, I do have my favorite strats, which largely lies in the quick expansions and dual upgrades, using electrify to protect the nodes furthest from base.

    So here's my primary strat tech build:

    One IP
    Cap Node2
    Cap Node3 (electrify)
    if possible, push and Cap Node4,5 (electrify)
    Arms lab1 (start armour upgrade)
    (if I have four or more nodes) Arms lab2 (start weapons upgrade)
    Adv Armoury
    Obv. (start phase tech or motion research)
    push for Node5,6,7, protect current nodes or hive offensive
    Arms lab1 (armour 2)
    Arms lab2 (weapons 2)

    If you get that fourth or fifth node electrified and hold it for even a short duratione your pretty much set. This allows dual upgrades which means you get the upgrades twice as fast as usual, and that allows you to upgrade your guys in half the usual time, so you get a really strong early advantage. The key is to keep it, so you really have to pick your hits as the com at that point because it can still fall apart.

    Alien counters:

    -Fade/Onos res whoring then hitting the res towers.
    -Gorgs healing multiple skulks who are hitting a single electrified tower (requires teamwork and patience, but can really hurt this strat).
    -A strong alien rush at the very beginning, that avoids the squads leaving base.

    also of note, I keep my strongest player or two at base to guard at the beginning. He knows how to build and guard at the same time usually and holds off the aliens til my first away team marine casualty respawns. Plus medspamming him helps.

    Now I haven't played the latest beta patch (4) yet so I don't know how the new balance changes effects this strat. It worked consistently and was popular in the community with beta 2.0 and still worked (albeit tougher to pull off) in 3.
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
    Electrification is the devil.

    <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><b>DEVIL I SAY!</b></span>
  • AmagiusAmagius Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28022Members
    edited May 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+May 3 2004, 07:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ May 3 2004, 07:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Electrification is the devil.

    <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><b>DEVIL I SAY!</b></span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think it's just a waste of resources, but to each his own. <!--emo&:)--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • BOBDololBOBDolol Join Date: 2003-10-04 Member: 21431Members
    it <b>is</b> a waste of resources. Don't electrify please, the only time you'll win with it is when you're against an incompetant alien team.

    arms lab(get armor 1)
    cap nodes, keep your marines health
    save up for an obs
    drop an obs, research phase tech
    continue pressure on the hive/nodes
    upgrade the armory, research mt when you have res
    at 4 min or so the 2nd hive should be going up
    get a phase gate at the building hive(when a hive is at it's weakest)
    recap nodes that the skulks may have taken down
    the rest should be fairly obvious, just finish the aliens

    You may think that the whole "taking down the 2nd hive" thing is easier said than done, but unless your whole team is full of people that can't aim it's actually a lot easier than it sounds. keep in mind that it is very hard for a marine team to come back after the aliens have gotten a 2nd hive, even with heavy armor or jps. However, it is extremely easy to take down a building hive when they don't have mcs and you have a phase gate there. Even if the fades come, the mines and shotguns should kill the fades(and the fades will usually stay, since it's either risking their lives or losing that hive and the game).
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
    I've killed more second hives (completed) than I can count...actually, no, I've killed more that it is beyond normal recollection.

    There is absolutely no feeling describable when you launch a 9 man Heavy Train into their hive.

    A heavy train in enough numbers is unstoppable, always.
  • BOBDololBOBDolol Join Date: 2003-10-04 Member: 21431Members
    edited May 2004
    I find HA trains easy to kill, you just need to wear them down. An onos with umbra/stomp, 2 or so hit and running fades, and leaping suicidal skulks will give the HA no time to rest and weld.

    and you can't forget how tremendously easy it is for cara/celerity fades to defend a hive
  • Swift_IdiotSwift_Idiot Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11883Members
    edited May 2004
    <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>You realize that I find your complaints of a smaller, more efficient text size laughable. I type my posts in this size, quotes are in this size, and any decent, traditional east coast university worth it's tuition money is going to be having you read many, many, MANY BOOKS in about this size. Brush off. I'm even saving you calories of energy because your damned eyes don't have to scroll as fast to keep up with the flow of information conveyed by my text.

    Yes it's a damned manuscript. That's a good bit of everything I know about how commanding is done, and I've based that on simple observation. Imagine how much more I'd have to say if I actually put up with people laughing at my voice and hating on me for being the commander and started winning games? I'm trying to be courteous and disgorge a huge sum of highly detailed, potentially useful information, and you guys complain about my text size? I should start writing it in shrunken Arial just so I can seperate the people who have the patience for dense reading from those who would more than likely just start skipping my posts.</span>

    One IP is a good start. Once your guys start dying in larger numbers, you NEED that second IP asap. Without it, all your guys will be in the respawn line instead of spawning and killing aliens or going through phase gates. When there are more than two people always dead at the same time, either you need another IP, or you need to medpack your soldiers a bit more.

    Armor1 is super-helpful. I'd say get it before phasetech. Your marines can usually run on foot to get anywhere on the map in under two minutes, so as long as they know where their objective is, they don't need phases to get there. Phases are more suited to surprise rushes, or getting large numbers of people somewhere fast.

    The reason I say armor1 before really anything else is because it's the best first upgrade, period. Nothing else helps your marines more than being able to take three skulk bites instead of a mere two. It gives the best sharpshooters on your team that much more insurance against death, meaning that your guys are out there killing aliens longer before dying. It's also cheaper than rushing phase tech, becuase phase gates require 1) a 20 res obs, 2) 15 res to research the technology, 3) 20 res to drop a gate at base, and 4) 20 res to drop each gate after that. That's a whole load of resources. It's much better to give your marines more survivability and force them to walk places in the early game than to give them phase gates that they are too weak to defend and which are too costly to lose.

    Stop electrifying a turret factory in base. It's just something you need to learn to stop doing. It works on pubs, but there are better strategies which are about as simple, cost WAY less, and work even BETTER on pubs. Tell one marine to stay at base, or put two stacks of mines down. If you have a base guard, that's free of cost, and if he's good, it'll take more than three skulks to even get close to base on most maps. If you buy two mine packs (8 mines), that's half the cost of the glowing turret factory, and just as effective. In fact, you might get more kills from mines because they are so tiny, no base-rusher sees them until he's standing on them. If you don't know how good any of your marines are with mines, you might even want to learn to place mines by yourself, and drop yourself a pack of mines when everyone is out taking care of business, hop out of the chair, and put them down before hopping back in.

    In fact, unless your marines are really REALLY unorganized, I'd say just skip electrifying any nodes except the absolute furthest from your base. Elec RTs cost 45 res, which takes 270 seconds to pay itself off. That's FOUR MINUTES AND THIRTY SECONDS before you get 45 res back from the node. Spend the resources on upgrades. Any upgrade, it doesn't matter. Spend it to upgrade the armory. Get motion tracking from the Obs. Whatever. Hell, you can even use the money to be more generous with your troops and hand out a couple gift shotguns to the guys with the most kills. Tell them they've been good little boys and they can go do what they want with the shotguns as long as they bring a friend to pick it up if they die. It's not likely you're going to find a better way to kill a few spare resources, and your team will love you.

    Also, a little known secret, marine RTs are vastly easier to replace than alien RTs. If some skulk is biting the RT close to base, you can send a marine to go do something about it, but since it only takes 90 seconds (minute and a half) for a regular RT to pay itself back, you're better off just letting the skulk spend his time munching RTs than munching marines. All you have to do once he's done is send in a single marine to scout the area, see if it's clear, and drop the RT again. ALWAYS DROP RTs. The more you have, even if you keep losing them, the better. Drop RTs the moment you see a soldier get into position, the moment you have the resources. Drop them all over the map to any marine who can get to one. If there is an open resource node on the map, try to get someone to run that way and cap it. If it goes down, have someone do it again. Not hard at all since even a single marine is stronger than a gorge. Also, never spend time having your marines weld an RT. Even if it has no health bars left and it would only take one bite to kill it, it's still making you money just fine. Wait for it to go down, then get someone to go out and cap it again. You aren't losing anything just by replacing unelectrified RTs. It's like replacing lightbulbs. Cheap, easy, quick. Most of the time, the aliens will be focused on other things besides your RTs, but if you see one start getting bitten, tell your marines there are enemies there. You can either have them go kill the aliens, which is good, or use the opportunity to get around the aliens and closer to their hive while they're busy with their chew-toy, which is better, since it's easier to replace an RT than to get closer to their hive.

    Try to have standoffs with the aliens when you can. Because resources are pooled with marines, you're getting res faster than the aliens, as long as your marines aren't dying all over the place like idiots or you keep forgetting to spam RTs to anyone who asks for one. If you hear them on one side of the map by clicking on top of the hive rooms until you hear hive noises, send a couple marines to the other side to start expanding and building multiple RTs hopefully unbothered. At the same time, send more marines toward their hive, and start trying to kill aliens and alien RTs. Aliens have to guard their RTs much more carefully than marines, so doing this will usually keep them off the other side of the map, where you only need one or two marines running between RTs keeping them safe from stray aliens who don't understand the value of their own RTs. Even if the aliens ignore their RTs in favor of trying to kill yours or rush base, you kill their RTs, and they have almost no resource income except what they can get from killing marines.

    When you have an observatory, SCANNING IS FREE. It costs zero res, and the only thing you have to do is wait for it to recharge it's power if you use it too often. Scanning is about the most fool-proof way of seeing what is in a certain part of the map, revealing aliens, RTs, chaimbers, and hives without needing a marine to go there and scout for you. Even if the aliens don't have sensory, just bind the observatory to buttons 1 through 5 by using CTRL + Number. Then just hit that number, hit A, and click on some part of the map to see if there's any alien junk in it. DO THIS WHENEVER YOU CAN SPARE YOUR ATTENTION TO IT. Not only does it show YOU what's in that part of the map, for a couple of seconds, it shows up on every marine's mini-map, which everyone should hopefully be using.

    Thus, scan the other hive rooms as often as possible. The fact that you're giving away where you're looking is balanced by the fact that now, every marine who has a clue should know where the aliens are. Also, it makes a clever distraction, making aliens think that a marine push may be headed one place, then abruptly show up somewhere else. If you scan hive rooms often, and finally see that the aliens put one up, get in there as soon as possible to kill it while it is weak. A freshly spawned hive which hasn't been fully built usually has so little HP that with about thirty seconds of medpacks and ammo packs, light armor LMG marines can kill it. Take advantage of early-hive weakness by killing the thing before it's health balloons up to 6,000 HP.

    Scan as often as the Obs allows you. It reassures your marines that you're watching over them and you're trying to form an attack plan, as well as being the best information gathering tool available other than motion tracking.

    If you're comming a large map like Agora, think about rushing for motion tracking as your first upgrade. This is super-handy for marines as well as you, since you can watch the little red blips on your map and plan your strategy accordingly.

    If the opportunity for a coordinated assault on the first hive presents itself, IE: The whole alien team is somewhere else doing something else, focus on it. These are the best chances for phase-gate rushes, armory-mine-shotgun rushes, or even just simple spawn-camping. If you sneak three guys into the hive room at the beginning of the game, when aliens only spawn one at a time, and they are doing a good job of killing every respawning skulk, keeping the alien team off the map and in the respawn line, medpack those three guys and give them plenty of ammunition packs, because they're making your job so much easier. In fact, if you plan on waiting until the aliens have left their hive, then try to sneak half your team in, you can often end the game with nothing more sophisticated than spawncamping for three minutes. As long as those couple of guys spawning the alien team aren't wasting rounds trying to take down the hive and just focus on keeping every alien player dead, just ignore the rest of the map and send all your guys to the hive. Build an armory, set down mines, ALWAYS HAVE TWO GUYS COVER FOR RESPAWNING ALIENS, drop them shotguns and mines with the remaining resources, and watch the game end shortly. Even if early spawncamping fails, you keep the entire alien team unable to respond, meaning that by the time they break the camp, they're in horrible shape. Meanwhile, you've been getting MASSIVE resources for kills just because of the spawncamping. It works the same way as a skulk who won't kill a phase gate all the way because he's focused on killing everyone who comes through the gate so that he can build his personal resource stockpile up.

    Remember, the objective of the game is to stop the aliens from spawning. If you CAN get into their hive early, and you establish a camp, you bar them from expanding, while you can afford to send one man across the rest of the map capping resources unbothered by skulks.

    Pay attention to your marines. If they are in a valuable position that you really need to have on the map, keep them healthy, and keep them all ammo'd up. Be ready with your finger on A so you can lay down healthpacks as soon as they get bitten, and when they kill the aliens, drop small piles of two ammo packs per person, so they can switch back to their LMG and get them. If you spam ammo packs in just one spot, what's going to happen is a marine is going to walk over them, and pick up the maximum bullets up to 250. That's a waste. Marines should have between 100 and 150 rounds to spare, so only drop them in small two-pack piles. of 100 bullets each. Think of it as rewarding your marines for not dying. Only give out ammo after the fight, because if they die with 150 ammo, that's a couple res wasted, and every penny counts. Also, while the fight is going on, don't give anyone more than about two or three medpacks a piece. If they need more, they're usually out of ammo by then and nothing is going to save them. Just send them back when they respawn. This is assuming we're talking about just average LA LMG rines. If your guys have shotguns, you want to drop them more ammo and more medpacks.

    There's this stigma about commanders who give out too much ammo or too many medpacks. It's good to balance how much stuff you give marines by how good they're doing. If they only get bit once while taking down two or three skulks, keep your eye on them and keep them happy and healthy above what you might normally do. These are the guys you should hand shotguns to if you have 10 res to spare floating around, and you want your marines to have an offensive boost. They're also the guys you should medspam, because chances are they might be able to beat the odds, reload their LMG, and fry the last skulk or get totally lucky and solo a fade.

    Drop things in front of marines. If they don't see things fall from the sky, usually they have no clue. I've had times where I've personally waited in a position for about fifteen seconds before the commander told me to stop being stupid and turn around to build the PG he dropped at my heels. And I'm like <!--emo&???--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> KFINE JEEZ not my fault I didn't see it or hear it. You should drop things in base like this. Wait till someone turns and looks somewhere before dropping something, or nobody is going to build it, and you may have to hop out of the chair momentarily to do it yourself. Similarly, if you're dropping things for your marines in the field, drop them in front of the marines. It's like the carrot tied to a stick. You hold something good in front of them and they are more likely to go where you want.

    That's all I can think of. I never command myself, but I probably could do it if I could handle the stress of all the people who would blame me if we lost the first few times. I'm not going to go back and check this post for errors, so if you saw any, my bad. [Edit] I lied.
  • FirewaterFirewater Balance Expert Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10690Members, Constellation
    a good opening for pressure is.

    Arms ->armor1

    while those are building send out guys to get various nodes. I always tell them to run around and kill aliens for me and if they need meds just call for it.
    After around armor 1 is done, and about 2-3 nodes are capped, get weapons 1and then I go for a quick obs and get phase gate tech.

    Weapons 2/armory if I have the res then armor 2 then weapons 3

    never electrify, or turret main base. You can't defend the enemy to death, so go offensive from the very start. Give your marines medpacks when they call for them because it is hard to retake lost ground.

    Since this is a pressure strat, focus on breaking down their nodes and hunting gorges in the beginning. The key to winning is hurting the alien economy maintaining/expanding your own. that can only be done by pressure.

    avoid the elec TF at all costs, if anything, just drop mines.
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+May 3 2004, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ May 3 2004, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Holy crap dude I wrote a book.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Could you double space the next manuscript PLZ.

    Directed in general:
    I hope people aren't bashing on elec so much just to sound like a pro. Elec has uses, and even top clans use it. It just isn't usually very good at defending nodes by itself. There's nothing in NS that is completely useless, only a couple things that people agree are very unuseful (coughhandnades), and a few more things that are just seldom used, like elec and cat packs.

    Don't trap yourself into a stale arms-lab-upgrade strategy and try some risky things and you'll quickly figure out what works and what doesn't work.
  • SaltzBadSaltzBad Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26833Members
    edited May 2004
    My all-time favorite is insta-phasetech. Plus you get a free Obs, with handy ping energy, juicy flavored bacon and the "Basegaurd for ze idjits" feature. Wewt.

    The most important part of the earlygame is not what you build though, its where you go and what you blow up.
  • laggerlagger Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
    Swift can we please stop setting the text into a small format.
  • MintmanMintman Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16866Members
    Only electrify if they've taken movement or sensory first and you've locked down the two other hives. It's the only time it's worthwhile.
  • MrBenMrBen ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Members
    edited May 2004
    One to two packs of mines is enough. Base defense is easy enough to do with that. Build your structures away from your cc and place mines around the structures in such a way that if they want to be able to eat them they have to have their back turned to the CC. If they go around the mines and starting eating the structure just get out the chair, the skulk will not realise till too late and will probably just panic and jump on a mine. If he doesn't realise them i doubt you'll have too much hassle killing a stationary skulk who can't see you.

    FW pretty much coevered everything else though, you need to pressure them and their economy straight off the bat. If you get their gorges and get them down to one node within the first few minutes then your making things much easier for yourself. Later fades, later hives, more time to tech up. Easier time taking out a hive as they just have skulks and maybe a lork or two.

    I find a good approach is to drop 2 shotguns to marines you know and trust (not recommended if you know no one). Send them + another lmger as well off toghter as gorge/node killers. They make short work of nodes and shouldn't have any problems with skulks provided you keep them supplied with ammo and meds and the lmger can deal with people at longish distance. You can smash right through an alien economy and on a lot of rounds even get the aliens down to 0 rts within the first few minutes. GG.
  • Diablo_fxDiablo_fx Join Date: 2003-02-21 Member: 13793Members
    Block their 2 closest rts with rts, and sell themas soon a skulk attacks, dont sell whena gorg spit its or starts building ocs.

    armory mines
    arms lab armor 1
    try to get an elected tf in a small coridor with 2 doors, works wonder and when they get too smart, sell it and make a new somewhere <!--emo&:p--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    I usually rush MT. The only problem is that it takes a long time to be researched, but once done, it gives you a HUGE advantage even with no upgrades.

    2 packs of mines
    Obs -> MT

    after that its res capping and saving up for arms lab and upgraded armory.

    As for electrification, i never electrify anything that:

    1: Marines walk past constantly
    2: Areas where the marine can get to quickly
    3: res nodes in unimportant/low action areas.

    and electrify at:

    1: High action places. Where you KNOW that res node is going to be hit hard like a res node immediately outside thier starting hive.
    2: Hive res nodes. They're going to be hit and you know it.
    3: Outposts with phasegates to keep those pesky lone skulks off.

    Electrifying res nodes is best explained by Saltzbad:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets assume for a moment you have the resnode Overlook on ns_veil captured at 1:30. Assuming you don't electrify it, and it holds for 3 minutes because this is the area your marines are generally walking past, you've netted something along the lines of 30 res from it.

    Assuming you do electrify it, 4:30 or those 3 minutes is the moment you've netted ZERO res from it - 4:30 incidentially being the average time for a Fade to complete gestation. The time you're gaining res is the time it takes a Fade to decide to take it down - 1 minute is just about realistic. You'll net 12-15 res from that.

    Theres the advantage to that, you've denied the Aliens putting up an RT in that spot - but unless its in a place that would put them at a serious disadvantage, like an alien-friendly node, they won't care. Theres a limit of about 4 RTs you can hold down against decent 'rines anyway - anything outside that is usually not even attempted until the ~8 minute mark at least.

    Thats the upside. But the downside to electrification for protection is alot more drastic - it doesn't remove those 30 res you'd have at 4:30, it removes them at 1:30. Thats very, very, very bad in a game providing any challenge at all - those 30 res could be any upgrade, shotguns or an AA or any other item you need fast before Aliens get the chance to expand. Early electrification shoots itself in the foot - electrification only being useful against largely dominated alien teams to avoid comebacks, but hampering map-domination in itself.

    So the main uses of Electrification that remain :
    - Base defense, great for crowded spots
    - Limiting the options of 1-Hive aliens
    - Boosting TFs, especially important ones on the offense (and/or defending a TFs Sieges. Its decent for Sieging as it requires no building) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    (note, numbers may not be correct because he wrote it for ~beta2/3, but you get the general idea.)

    Diablo's strategy is interesting and different, but eats up res that you could/need to be using elsewhere.
  • Lost3Lost3 Join Date: 2003-12-09 Member: 24181Members
    I think I am starting to see a pattern or two in these beginning strategies. What I am noticing are, in a very general sense, two ways of opening the game. The first is the very methodical, consolidate-then-advance approach. The other is the more aggresive method that relies on a successful offensive to both win and defend yourself. It appears that most strategies resolve into either camp or into an attempt to blend both strategies.
    <b>Pro</b><ul><li>Each location is equally as strong and defended</li><li>Difficult for low level aliens to assualt</li><li>Easy for Comm to keep track of events</li><li>Easy for Marines to patrol, defend</li><li>Marines tend to stick together more often</li><li>Each Location is potentially defendable</li></ul><b>Con</b><ul><li>Each location is equally as weak to higher lifeforms</li><li>Each location lost is a major loss of invested rez</li><li>Usually restricted access to rest of map</li><li>Initative usually firmly in aliens hands</li><li>Usually low rez income</li></ul><b><u>Aggresive:</u></b>
    <b>Pro</b><ul><li>Each location is equally as expendable</li><li>Can deprive aliens of vital RTs and Hive early on</li><li>Can keep constant pressure on aliens</li><li>Initative usually on Marines side</li><li>Marines usually travel further and faster on map</li></ul><b>Con</b><ul><li>Easy for aliens to slip by and attack rear lines</li><li>Marines rarely stay together</li><li>Marine teamwork/cohesion usually low</li><li>Large amount of RT 'churn' (built, being destroyed, rebuilt, etc...)</li><li>'Network' of RTs or location can collapse quickly</li></ul>OK that was a brief list off the top of my head. Bear in mind that 'Location' above refers to any spot where resources have been used to secure said location. Whether that is a Rez Node or phase gate base or whatever. To help clarify, churn here refers to the process of building a RT, having it destroyed, and then rebuilding it.
    I am firmly of the opinion that both of these broad strategies are correct, I think there is no one strategy that will win everytime. If there was, we would all be using it by now. Choosing the correct strategy, or combination of strategies is really what the issue is. Determining the skill of your Marines, the Aliens against you, and knowledge of the map should determine your strategy.
  • NiteowlNiteowl Join Date: 2002-09-04 Member: 1274Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+May 3 2004, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ May 3 2004, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I never command myself, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    you probably should, you seem to have a very good handle on it.
  • Act_ChillAct_Chill Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15816Members
    Swift Idiot omg you write too much.

    Anyways ip, armory, arms lab is all you need. Get level 1 armor started or armory your choice. Spend rest of res on rts. Have your marines gaurd rts. Elec is a waste of 30 res. 20 might be worth it unless you have 300 res...If you have a good team maybe mt instead of armor 1 and arms lab.

    Base d who needs that.
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
    edited May 2004
    What's the point of coming to a forum and not reading a very good piece of information?

    Swift Idiot, I agree with you on what you say, however, your facts are a bit inaccurate.

    Every RT tick occurs every 4 seconds, every RT costs 15 res. It takes exactly one minute to repay an RT, while it takes 3 minutes to repay an electrified RT. Good post overall, basically expanding on what I've said, while providing even better insight on things I didn't cover.

    I usually never electrify, ever, EVER in a game (unless you count elec tfing Eclipse Hive to death...that was the best).

    Mines work just as well. If you have 2 responsive marines, you will always consolidate your territory AND expand at the same time.

    _Lost_ put it best, except he forgets MINES! Other than that, his analysis is superb, though I believe expand like wildfire is ALWAYS the better strategy. Consolidation is usually for complacement commanders on the worst skilled of pubs. I learned the hard way.

    Back to mines, again, 2 responsive marines, tell them to take a mine pack and lay them around the RT.

    There are a MAJOR advantages to this, you can be sure that your RTs are ALWAYS protected, you get rfk from the mines, the skulks will be more hesitant to attack your RTs, and it costs 20 less than electrification, while the effect is instant.

    Mines are your best friend, I'd rather have 4 mines covering my six than 4 marines (exaggeration, I don't actually mean it, used to accentuate the point).
  • Act_ChillAct_Chill Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15816Members
    Mines cant be used effectively in pubs <!--emo&:(--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Putting mines on the back part of rts and where most of the image is covered by the rt image is a great way to protect rts and stop skulk from using rt as shield. Of course you have to know what you are doing. I few mines here and there is a great way to protect and deter aliens, but nub pubbers cant use them right.
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
    Act Chill, in every pub, you should be guaranteed at least 2 people on each team to listen and act for the best of the team, why do you think I said, "2 responsive marines"?
  • Swift_IdiotSwift_Idiot Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11883Members
    OK smart guys, I went back and changed the font size for those who mostly read the daily comics. Ugh. I'll be going back to small size soon.

    I would keep going with good advice for coms, but this topic is about how to open the early game. Midgame when the fade shows up or when the second hive starts building is the line in the sand. That's all I know about how to get a good position in the early game.
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    Mines, while extremely effective against skulks, are not your basic means of static defence.

    You lay 4 - 8 mines on a res node. 10 res defence - and an effective one to boot.

    The first victim skulk comes in, chuckles at his little find, then jumps to the res node to chew it down. Boom. 1-3 res in your coffers.

    The next time, the skulk goes back, he's smartened up. With that last mine blast, there is most likely a hole in the mine wall that he can walk up to and get within biting range. And, if you let it go, the res node will go down, and you've got about 8 res sitting there waiting to be stepped on one by one by a gorge with regeneration. Remining constantly? Good, that'll keep the skulks off until they figure out that they can jump on top of the res node and bite it from there. (IIRC, you can't put mines on buildings.)

    Mines are just like turrets: They're there to provide an extra umph to your offensive, but they will not singlehandidly defend something for you.

    This is why they are so effective in seiging outposts: Skulks rush blindly in while the marines shoot. The skulk has no time to be watching where the mines are or else he'll be shredded by the marine. And if he tries to dodge the marine, he can't look out for mines.
  • LitoLito Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20560Members
    The phasegate rush is a VERY viable tactic. You have to have HUGE trust in your marines for this. Saltz commanded a game on Lunixmonster and used phasegate rush. We were pushing them back pretty hard, since they didn't have upgrades, but hell, we left our hive alone for 2 seconds, then BOOM, the only hive-being-attacked message we got were "The hive is dying". The game went pretty much downhill from there.

    Saltz is a very calm comm (must be that crazy taoist comm training and meditation deep in the himilayan mountains) and even if a plan doesn't succeed, he plays it cooly. It was about ~4 minutes before he finally got his second phasegate up. If it was anyone else in the chair, i doubt that it would've worked.
  • kiwikiwi Join Date: 2003-09-13 Member: 20803Members
    my fav trick is hallway locking.

    works best on the hallway in tanith going from rr to fusion. the few times ive had to do it (too many ocs in fusion) ive got about 20 kills as a comm. for some reason skulks just love running in there. an elect tf+pg+5 or so turrets make fades and onos pretty short work for your marines.
  • MistenTHMistenTH Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Assumes roughly fair teams.
    Tier 1 Viable Openers:
    Armour1 (75 res) (75 seconds) (2 rts)
    Safest opener, allows wide variety of tier 2 tactics.

    MT (85 res) (115 seconds) ( 1 rt)
    After kicking in, allows total marine domination of res nodes, either taking or killing them. Allows effective ramboing.

    PhaseTech w/ 1 PG (90 res) (60 seconds) (1, or 2 rt)
    Allows early pressuring of alien hive. Usually requires a 2nd IP very quickly.

    ElectRT rush (30 res) (30 res, 30 second per RT. Cap nodes close to hive)
    IP TF
    Capping 3 nodes near alien hive = screwed up alien economy. Requires marines to be good to survive without upgrades. Prime candidate for relocation.

    Shotgun/Mine rush (30 res) (30 res)
    IP ARMOURY, 3 shotguns/minepacks
    Allows fast killing and securing of nodes. Shotgun a node to the ground, or mine it up and knife it, getting RFK while killing a node. Marines must work in groups to avoid possible loss of investment. Requires good and smart marines.

    Fades typically arrive around 270 seconds.
    Add 10 more res for mine defence.
    Relocation I wouldn't consider viable as its very expensive and kills momentum and makes your marines snack bait. But it works on some maps. Map dependant.

    Tier 2 Main Course
    Good for cheap opening bases. Relocating to a hive can add additional pressure to existing hive, and allows hive lockdown by taking the other empty hive. Must be done fast before fades.

    Heavy Weapons Domination
    With minimum L1 upgrades, equip at least 1/2 your marines with shotguns, welders and if you upgraded early, HMGs. Allows you to raze alien nodes and fades fast. But for killing hive, recommend pairing with fast siege instead of hitting it head on with guns.

    Fast Siege
    Usually requires phase tech. TF, upgrade, minimum 2 sieges, but best is 3. Defence can be either electrified TF, at least 2 sentries, or armoury and at least 2 minepacks. Works well with heavy weapons.

    Upgrade Mania
    Tech MT, tech guns, tech armour. Usually res and time is tight, and after getting L1 weaps/armour, you should decide whether to tech all out guns or armour. All out guns is good for pain, but is very risky as your marines die fast. All out armour is excellent for preserving marines, and armed with heavy weapons, will not be lightweights even with L1 guns. While more res is needed, you should be issuing big guns anyway.

    JP or HA. Very expensive. Typically leaves no res available to hurt aliens with until the sets are issued. Forces a make it or break it game. Usually break it.

    After bare upgrades (L1 W/A & PhaseTech), focuses on PG and massive static defences. Best opened by relocating to the far hive, or getting a PG and some defences in the near hive (distance relative to active hive). Decent lockdown requires pref. electRT, TF, 4 sentries, mines. Cost per lockdown, 90 res. Requires marines to be able to hold an additional 2 other RTs other than the 2 hives, and being able to lock both hives inside of 5 minutes. Best if marine base is relocated to a hive.

    By the time fades appear, marines should be re-teching again, and have a few shotgun squads to keep fades at bay. Pressure is by building a fortified outpost near the active hive. MS should be vacated to reduce phase destinations to just 3.

    Fades will be hard pressed to survive when taking at least 60 damage per second, WITHOUT marines present. Which should not be the case. Renders fades impotent. Nullifies skulks and gorges. Hive2 not available, thus bile is not an option. Onos can work, but if arrives to late, is a patty to HMGs.

    With at least 3 fade-proof nodes, marines can slowly tech and win.
  • ZaggyZaggy NullPointerException The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24214Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos, Subnautica Playtester

    - 1 ip
    - 1 armory
    - some mines to place near em
    - arms lab for armor 1
    - obs

    then the res will (hopefully) start flowing in so you can upgrade wpns 1/2 and armor 2/3
    between those get mt I suggest, those legal "wallhacks" really rule!
    and another ip somewhere
    and dont forget to upgrade that armory go get those supah wpns/the almighty protolab with HA/JP!

    -I hope this made any sense-
  • ChezChez Join Date: 2004-01-05 Member: 25074Members, Constellation
    What I do is, ip, armory, armslab, rt their usually at by then, lvl 1 armor, observ, lvl 1 weapons, upgrade armory, phase tech.
This discussion has been closed.