Insta-kill
wascally_wabbit
Join Date: 2003-09-09 Member: 20701Members
Join Date: 2003-09-09 Member: 20701Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Not too much fun</div> I'd just like to note something about games that seems to be universal: insta-kill tends to make people unhappy.
Examples from NS: Focus, shotguns vs. skulks, GL, (and lesser so) devour
Just a little discussion I'd like to see happen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Bah, that's a bad name for the topic. Looks like I'm complaining about it. Meh =P
Examples from NS: Focus, shotguns vs. skulks, GL, (and lesser so) devour
Just a little discussion I'd like to see happen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Bah, that's a bad name for the topic. Looks like I'm complaining about it. Meh =P
Comments
Without it wont be a ballanced game.
Thats a good point cas w/o armor1 you are pretty screwed...i want to see where this discussion goes <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This was all done intentionally in an attempt to ensure that if you are being insta-gibbed that you can notice what is killing you, and change the conditions in the middle of the game to allow you to defeat this method of death, thereby putting the pressure back on the original attacker to change his methods or be left behind.
So imho there isn't an insta-kill issue in the game, since you can always do something about it.
<span style='color:white'>A few points brought forth in the most civilized language I can muster after reading your post:
- You have no idea of the motivations behind gameplay changes. Don't assume you do.
- You have no right to belittle other member groups based on their opinions. Keep doing this and you'll soon see that three strikes are indeed not that much.
- You have even less of a right to belittle specific, named members based on their opinion or the presentation of their points.
</span>
they give people with skill an edge over lucky people. if you are skilled, and can aim, you can kill the enemy before they get to you...
people will say "if you are skilled you don't need one-hit wonders to do it" ... it doesn't matter how skilled you are if they are full upgraded onos and you are vanilla marine. you will lose (with a couple of exceptions!)
In the last beta patch I played, aliens GAINED exp from just sitting around. That made these poor level one marines more useless than ever against focus, because it was in the aliens best interest to get focus asap (since marines HAD to get armor 1 first, or else they were useless, or nearly useless)
However, now that the issue has been recognized, and a solution is attempted to be found, I don't think we'll have to worry about the game being over in 3 minutes because the marine spawn/die before they can react, even during early game.
CO still doesn't do NS any good, but at least the issue was addressed.
As for the GL and Shotgun, those now cost about as much as focus, so I guess the power should be about the same (except GLs are the ultimate spawn camp weapon, unless you're rambo'ing you silly marine you). This is long, I stop now.
In the last beta patch I played, aliens GAINED exp from just sitting around. That made these poor level one marines more useless than ever against focus, because it was in the aliens best interest to get focus asap (since marines HAD to get armor 1 first, or else they were useless, or nearly useless)
However, now that the issue has been recognized, and a solution is attempted to be found, I don't think we'll have to worry about the game being over in 3 minutes because the marine spawn/die before they can react, even during early game.
CO still doesn't do NS any good, but at least the issue was addressed.
As for the GL and Shotgun, those now cost about as much as focus, so I guess the power should be about the same (except GLs are the ultimate spawn camp weapon, unless you're rambo'ing you silly marine you). This is long, I stop now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do hope you know that your answer to the focus problem has already been discussed and now implemented in the game. It now does take 2 points to get focus. Focus was never really a one-hit killer even before this recent patch, if you compare it to the AWP it definately wasn't. With the AWP, there is no way of getting around not dieing on the first shot unless the guy hits you in the foot by chance. With focus, you can easily avoid dieing in one bite by getting armor 1. Usually, I get armor 1 as my first upgrade before everything else, it seems to help a lot.
Examples from NS: Focus, shotguns vs. skulks, GL, (and lesser so) devour
Just a little discussion I'd like to see happen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Bah, that's a bad name for the topic. Looks like I'm complaining about it. Meh =P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
While their are weapons in the game that give you a good chance of a InstaGib, they arn't 100% effective, and to utilze effectivly require at least a moderate levle of skill.
I don't know how many times I've unloaded an entire shotgun clip at a skulk only to hit air, and then 5 minutes later take 8 skulks in a row without reloading (Damn you HL netcode!!)
Same results with Focus. The only time its instagib is if the marine dosn't have Armor 1, or has been previously damaged.
These powerfull weapons mearly help, and do have thier counters. How do you counter the AWP in CS, or the Sniper Rifle in DoD? Currently theres no <i>direct</i> counter to Devour, execpt having your teammates chase down that Onos.
I love the fact that focus is now a 2 point upgrade. Most people don't even get it now on the co games I've played, and I don't have to waste a point in armor1 until maybe late in the game if I don't want HA or JP. I mean, I've NEVER teched up to weapon3 in co before b4a, but now I can do it most of the time.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Who's fault is that? The focus user? Stop playing this game with random CO newbs and find some well-run NS servers where you don't have to ask to get a weld.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most people don't even get it now on the co games I've played<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Which is the result of raising a simple, balanced skill to cost more than other upgrades. Gee couldn't see that one coming. Great job removing an entire playstyle from the game based on the <span style='color:white'>See above.</span>
Ugh.</span>
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Who's fault is that? The focus user? Stop playing this game with random CO newbs and find some well-run NS servers where you don't have to ask to get a weld.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most people don't even get it now on the co games I've played<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Which is the result of raising a simple, balanced skill to cost more than other upgrades. Gee couldn't see that one coming. Great job removing an entire playstyle from the game based on<span style='color:white'>See above.</span>
Ugh.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
swift, do you play marines much? Ever? You're reminding me of the good ol' debates back in 1.0x
And YES, we found a counter to JP/HMG rushes, which unfortunately required more teamwork than most pubs had. There were even SUCCESSFUL 2-gorge strats, that were completely viable, but that was another time, and another story. Focus' counter was level 1 armor, but forcing a build-order on marines is kinda cruel, y'know?
Basically, instagibs are effective because people want the firepower. NS Combat is an FPS game, and by definition aggressive. A more aggressive upgrade is a shotgun, HMG or GL, instead of armor upgrades. There is no "fix" for this, as if everyone started getting armor 1 to combat focus, nobody would get focus, then armor 1 wouldn't be as popular early-game, then everybody would go focus again... and repeat. People just need to modify their strategies. If the aliens are focus-killing you all around the map, get some bloody armor. If they're cloakwalking into your base and xenociding on the armory killing the entire team... stop humping the armory, then get scan. Don't complain on chat. Or, gasp, work as a team. That also helps, as a focus skulk is less likely to charge 6 marines down a hallway than to pick a lone one off.
I play marines about as often as aliens, depending on which team needs some help the most. I like trying to help floundering teams.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And YES, we found a counter to JP/HMG rushes, which unfortunately required more teamwork than most pubs had. There were even SUCCESSFUL 2-gorge strats, that were completely viable, but that was another time, and another story. Focus' counter was level 1 armor, but forcing a build-order on marines is kinda cruel, y'know?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Sounds like the problem is pubs again.
Forcing a build-order? What simpleton <b>doesn't</b> get armor one first? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> There must be about twentybajillion posts about commanding where people are SCREAMING for people to always get AR1 first, with ten pages of reasoning why. You can search for them. I don't have to explain AR1's superiority as upgrade number one. It IS. If you can do math, it should be as obvious as the nose on your face.
Skulks who used to go focus-first were doing it because they wanted short-term payoff in exchange for long-term drawback. The moment marines got armor1, the same cost as focus, it drops in effectiveness. Drastically. They also take longer to kill marine structures. The only reason focus skulks dominated CO pubs is/was because of the sheer idiocy quotient of the marines who go for something stupid like resupply or WEAP1 first, or who don't even bother to upgrade armor until they get WEAP3 shotguns.
The reason focus kills so many marines is because there are a lot of really, really dumb marines. Balancing the game for the mentally deficient isn't how you do it.</span>
well said
Btw making your text small like that is really annoying.
<span style='color:white'>Just to dump my 2 cents here, believe me, if I hated everybody whoms posts I edit, I'd either be suicidal or have a higher bodycount than a John Woo movie...</span>
But admins love everybody, so it's gotta be my general lack of tact and respect for people who I think know less about the game than me.
Don't worry about it, usually if Nem edits my posts, he tries to leave the parts that are worth reading in, so you didn't miss much. I don't remember what was there before anyway.
As for the single-spawn CO system, it's been how many days since Beta4, and I <b>STILL</b> think it's a badly thought out solution to something that was never a problem anyway. They've changed combat so that spawncamping is even easier, because apparently nobody liked having hour-long combat games. As though hour long combat games are bad. Combat isn't even about winning or losing. It's a training program so people can test different things and know what they do and how to do them and work on their technical skills. Combat is where you learn how to blinkslash like a pro, or how to properly umbra your teammates, or how to use web effectively, or how to ambush as a skulk, or whatever without worrying about the rest of your team screaming at you for making a newbie mistake as a fade or something. But the way they're changing it, Combat is turning into less of a Do-Anything-Be-Anything training mod and more into something... well, something it shouldn't be, which is an actual game.
I liked Combat back when the games would go on until everyone had a chance to get to level ten, and then keep going. The only reason people got so annoyed by this is because most people never consider their current game of combat to be just a warmup before finding an NS_ map. Some people take combat seriously, and those tend to be the ones who complain about balance in combat, as though balance mattered at all for Co. What I'd rather see is everything brought back down to one point, a better spawn system, and maybe some better map design. No kidding games are going to take forever like they used to, but AFAIAC, that's not important. What's important is letting people test expensive stuff like onos, HA, HMG, etc etc etc without worrying about dying.
Anyway...
Also, sorry about the small text. :[ Look, I tend to write LONG, LONG posts. To compensate and take up less space with them, I shrink the text. It's still readable isn't it? Should I double-space or something?? If it's really annoying and you find yourself squinting, maybe you should turn up the monitor brightness or look into reading glasses. I have a pair and they're the only thing keeping me from squinting at everything like I was Clint Eastwood.
Here, I'll even make this post normal-text sized. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> You're welcome.
Combat isn't even about winning or losing. It's a training program so people can test different things and know what they do and how to do them and work on their technical skills. Combat is where you learn how to blinkslash like a pro, or how to properly umbra your teammates, or how to use web effectively, or [paraphrase] et al [/paraphrase]. But the way they're changing it, Combat is turning into less of a Do-Anything-Be-Anything training mod and more into something... well, something it shouldn't be, which is an actual game.
The only reason people got so annoyed by this is because most people never consider their current game of combat to be just a warmup before finding an NS_ map. Some people take combat seriously, and those tend to be the ones who complain about balance in combat, as though balance mattered at all for Co. What I'd rather see is everything brought back down to one point, a better spawn system, and maybe some better map design. No kidding games are going to take forever like they used to, but AFAIAC, that's not important. What's important is letting people test expensive stuff like onos, HA, HMG, etc etc etc without worrying about dying.
Here, I'll even make this post normal-text sized. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> You're welcome. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow! That's a really nice post (chucked the stuff I don't wanna discuss with you)
You obviously seem to be well-intentioned in the changing of Combat into something that would help train newbies, as opposed to making them hate a game they've never 'really' played before.
That sounds freaking awesome! I wish Combat were like that. I tried to teach a friend how to play NS, but the map changed to Co_whocares and I was so busy trying to go at the 'normal' build order that I didn't have time to teach him how to play.
As for Armor 1 making the most sense, that's kinda cruel. There's Motion Tracking/Scan Area/Resupply/Catpack(ha!)/Mines(early)/Grenades(another ha!)/welders to be gotten, not just weapon or armor upgrades. Whenever I play Co as a marine, I often see myself <b>forced</b> to use the same build every time I play (armor 1/weap 1/trade secret). That doesn't sound like much training to me. With Aliens I can be a little more creative, but there are a few upgrades that are practically always needed (focus, adren or cele, or both, cara, etc.)
I retract my statement from earlier, however (but I'm not going to edit it post-Nem'ified), you obviously care for the game. And please keep it normal size, if people don't want to read your post, they'll skip it anyway.
Insta-gibs are...
...Something aliens cannot do without focus and lv0 rines == Impossible in most cases.
...Quick way to waste res.
...Not fun.
Can you say that getting shot down as an onos, with exactly 400 hp and 98 ap, against one shotgun (and *one* pellet!) is... fun? In my case, I had max res and all, but it gets on nerves pretty quick. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
To lerk, it's even worse. 30 res just so rines can gun you down in one or, more realistically, two sg shots? That's what lerk can handle in the best case. Rightfully so, but 30 res of such a short fun? No thanks.
Let's not forget how lovely it is to peek around a corner as a skulk, bang, dead, queue, "gg." Don't even want to think fade... As to devour; it's boring, but it doesn't happen in random or seemingly out of the blue. GL is a 25 res weapon, uses grenades, so that is pretty much okay too, and focus kills -especially in later game- require skill.
It seems that '**** happens' even in NS. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Here is my two cents....
There is a difference between the instant kill weapons, shotguns for example, require skill and accuracy to one shot kill the aliens.
Grenade Launchers are spammed randomly on the ground in hopes of blowing up a skulk or two with its large blast radius.
In my opinion instant kill weapons are tolerable as long as they take accuracy and skill to use. Frustration comes when things like GL's and such are introduced. But thus is the nature of the beast <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
why are you that close as a lerk in the first place... ?
lerk is a support class - it isn't meant to get involved in fights for exaclty that reason - it's terrible defence. umbra, spores and primal are its weapons - bite is just a backup if you have hearing trouble (you let the marines walk up too close..)
why are you that close as a lerk in the first place... ?
lerk is a support class - it isn't meant to get involved in fights for exaclty that reason - it's terrible defence. umbra, spores and primal are its weapons - bite is just a backup if you have hearing trouble (you let the marines walk up too close..) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If lerk were purely a "support" class, he would not have 'bite.' Umbra + bite = good combination, so two hive lerk should be able to take down one 10 res marine, most likely half-dead of spores.
But just give him one place where the spores do not reach; wouldn't you think placing those teeth to some better place than the nearest vent? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> Besides, I'm not talking about close-range, but medium-range; lerk will not have a chance to flee if a sg surprises him (especially if he has used all his adre).
IMO, 30 res of that is too much.
Focus will be put back to one point. The shotgun has no direct counter like focus has armour1. The nearest is a carapaced lerk or a fade. Focus costing 2 points puts the aliens on the back foot from the outset of the game. Once the fades start appearing, marines have too many high level shotguns and hmgs ready. Focus redresses this speeding up alien levelling and slowing marine levelling; focus means that the marines have a slower upgrade path to their weapons.
Well organised marines who move out in groups and cover themselves have no problems mashing any skulks attacking directly or ambushing. Marines will know where the hidey holes are. The gamma "modifications" going on mean there are even less places to hide. As an alien, you end up spending most of your time in the vents, leeching off other players lucky enough to get a kill, hoping for a lone marine.
If the game gets to spawn killing, it was over way beforehand.
Incidentally, I've played on a server (yo-clan - hi guys), where the spawn system was changed to wave spawning. And it did string out the games unnecessarily.