SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
<!--QuoteBegin-coil+May 4 2004, 12:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ May 4 2004, 12:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ..."patriotism" is practically all I hear about from the far right these days. Look at the media's stupifying preoccupation with Bush's and Kerry's service records during the Vietnam war. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not the topic at hand so I'll say this then drop it: These two issues (Bush and Kerry) have nothing to do with patriotism. These are specific snipes focussed on the credibility of would-be elected officials. On both sides, it is a question of Trust, not Patriotism.
<!--QuoteBegin-FilthyLarry+May 3 2004, 10:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ May 3 2004, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-[WHO+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Them,May 3 2004, 07:19 PM] <!--QuoteBegin-FilthyLarry+May 3 2004, 03:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ May 3 2004, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Handman+May 3 2004, 10:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ May 3 2004, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only images I heard the government raise issue about is the picture of the flag draped coffins, and they did so to respect the families of the deceased(some familes get upset when their relative's death is used against what that relative believed in). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't buy into that excuse. It's not like you can identify the soldiers in those coffins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The families can, and that's the people that they're trying to respect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IMO it is more respectful to allow images like that to be shown. It seems disrespectful to me to treat the fallen as some sort of "dirty secret".
Showing mangled bodies is one thing, but a flag-draped coffin shows how the dead are treated with honour for their sacrifice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dont you think its up to the families to decide what is respectfull?
Im not against the images, but rather the context in how they are being used. I have seen these images used in a form of protest to the war that those soldiers died for.
As for the photographer being punished for the pictures, he/she should be punished. They worked for a transportation company and violated a trust between the company and their client by taking unauthorized photos.
<!--QuoteBegin-Maveric+May 4 2004, 12:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maveric @ May 4 2004, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <i>Very</i> interesting that that link is now down... please attempt to re-establish it from another source! The truth must be known; It deserves itself so, for what good is truth if it is draped in a lie of secrecy in a corner of the blackest of shadows? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Please, no conspiracy theories here. If I were sitting next to you and you said that, I would smack you. The link went down; the photos have probably been mirrored a thousand times over different websites by now. Use a search engine. In case anyone is too lazy to do that, the photos consist mainly of pictures of tanks, soldiers with guns, and mangled bodies. There's pictures of a downed Iraq Air passenger jet, a panorama picture of Baghdad, and a picture of Iraqi civillians smiling and waving at troops in a jeep.
As for the issue of pictures of the flag draped coffins, I think that people are trying to respect the wishes of the families, who, in the majority of cases, don't want to see these pictures everywhere, because it's too soon and too sad for them. Also, a large number of the pictures that have been floating around for a while now are not pictures of soldiers killed in the war, they're pictures of astronauts killed in the Challenger explosion. Officials have been trying to put a stop to the confusion and (in some cases deliberate) misrepresentation.
If I were the one cancelling the broadcast of reading of names for an hour, I'd do it not because it's an "anti war political statement" but because my company would stand to lose a lot of money over it. Advertisers would pull, ratings would plummet (because very few people are going to sit and watch Koppel read names for an hour.) The media is driven by one thing these days: money. It's all privately owned and for profit.
And to the origional statement of "you won't see these on the news": I do, although admittedly not some of the most graphic images (as children might see them.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+May 4 2004, 02:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ May 4 2004, 02:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+May 4 2004, 04:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ May 4 2004, 04:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was under the impression that the thing about the beating of the iraqi prisoners was hoaxed (photo manip) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> those particular photos may have been hoaxed, but a report carried out by the army itself found evidence of things which go beyond cruel and into the realms of perverted and just plain sick, were going on in at least one Baghdad prison.
Point taken about some veiwers being too 'soft' to hear such things, and its certainly not on to broadcast such information while children might hear it, but theres a big difference between seeing, say, an Iraqi gunned down, and hearing the words 'Insurgents killed' (because lets face it, we never hear of civilian deaths over here, every civilian to die in Iraq was an insurgent as far as the news is concerned [there cant be a 'small number of insurgents' as were continuously told when there were somthing like 1300 Iraqis killed last month alone, were they all insurgents?]). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Also, about the prison... the prison was orginally used by Saddam as a torture chamber.
It's like one regime move in, and another took over. It makes us look no different.
I am personally disgusted and those soldiers are a complete disgrace to America. I am very glad they are being court martialed at the very least.
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+May 4 2004, 02:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ May 4 2004, 02:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+May 4 2004, 04:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ May 4 2004, 04:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was under the impression that the thing about the beating of the iraqi prisoners was hoaxed (photo manip) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> those particular photos may have been hoaxed, but a report carried out by the army itself found evidence of things which go beyond cruel and into the realms of perverted and just plain sick, were going on in at least one Baghdad prison.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I should have been more specific; that's what I meant (that set of pictures hoaxed).
Here are some of the pictures, for those of you who are interested - <a href='http://www.local6.com/news/3250508/detail.html' target='_blank'>linky</a>. edit: these are the photos that aren't being accused of forgery, the ones that were probably on the dead link from the first page. <span style='color:white'>Nope, those aren't them. See below. --coil</span>
And more on what I was saying (the hoaxed photos were apparently black and white and of brittish troops, the photos of the US antics are in dull color):
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, serious doubts have emerged over the veracity of the pictures. One anonymous military source, speaking to the BBC, questioned whether the photographs had even been taken in Iraq.
The source said that the rifle carried by one soldier in the photographs was an SA-80 Mk1, of a type not issued to troops in Iraq, and that the troops in Iraq wore berets, rather than the floppy hats seen in the image. The source also claimed that the Bedford truck in which the torture was apparently carried out was not of a type used in Iraq. The sharp quality of the images, the lack of movement and the absence of any sweat, dirt and injuries on the captive, a man said to have been arrested for theft and subjected to an eight-hour beating, have also raised doubts over their authenticity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=404&id=501342004' target='_blank'>Source</a>
And, according to <a href='http://www.space.com/news/columbia_coffins_040423.html' target='_blank'>space.com</a>, the coffin pictures that are being widely heralded as casualties of the war in Iraq are actually the fallen crew of the recent shuttle disaster. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, eagle-eyed NASA-watchers as well as NASA employees recognized some of the images as being from February 5, 2003, when the remains of the space shuttle's crew were brought to the Dover Air Force Base in Dover, Delaware.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The article is an interesting read, as the whole episode sheds a fresh light on how the media and public's attention works.
<!--QuoteBegin-Handman+May 4 2004, 10:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ May 4 2004, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-FilthyLarry+May 3 2004, 10:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ May 3 2004, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-[WHO+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Them,May 3 2004, 07:19 PM] <!--QuoteBegin-FilthyLarry+May 3 2004, 03:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ May 3 2004, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Handman+May 3 2004, 10:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ May 3 2004, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only images I heard the government raise issue about is the picture of the flag draped coffins, and they did so to respect the families of the deceased(some familes get upset when their relative's death is used against what that relative believed in). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't buy into that excuse. It's not like you can identify the soldiers in those coffins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The families can, and that's the people that they're trying to respect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IMO it is more respectful to allow images like that to be shown. It seems disrespectful to me to treat the fallen as some sort of "dirty secret".
Showing mangled bodies is one thing, but a flag-draped coffin shows how the dead are treated with honour for their sacrifice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dont you think its up to the families to decide what is respectfull?
Im not against the images, but rather the context in how they are being used. I have seen these images used in a form of protest to the war that those soldiers died for.
As for the photographer being punished for the pictures, he/she should be punished. They worked for a transportation company and violated a trust between the company and their client by taking unauthorized photos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you could identify the bodies of those shown in the coffins I'd agree that not getting the families consent seems disrespectful.
Otherwise I view this as no different than a blanket news statement such as "10 US soldiers were killed in Iraq today". You don't know who those 10 soldiers are, and I doubt the families had any say as to whether or not there loved ones death could be acknowledged in such a statement.
As far as the context in which they are used. I see this as really an "eye of the beholder" issue. You can look at such pictures and feel a sense of patriotism or you can feel disgusted with the whole war in general. It's up to the individual to decide.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+May 4 2004, 03:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ May 4 2004, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here are some of the pictures, for those of you who are interested - <a href='http://www.local6.com/news/3250508/detail.html' target='_blank'>linky</a>. edit: these are the photos that aren't being accused of forgery, the ones that were probably on the dead link from the first page. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I saw the photos on the first page before the link went down. Nothing even came close to that bad.
The worst photo from the first page was probably the severed leg just sitting in the middle of the road.
Of the 4 pages of pictures (probably 15-20 pics per page) from the dead link, only about 10-12 pictures showed people with any kind of injuries. And all were civillians, there were absolutely no pictures taken indoors except 1-2 in a hospital, and absolutely none that featured any prisoners at all.
We could spend days searching the haystack for conservatives who don't label anti-war people as unpatriotic, etc, but nah. There's no being a tool about it - it's a fact that the mainstream right has been doing it for well over a year.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
The pictures I linked were not the ones of the detainment camp that are currently causing a stir in the media (and have resulted in charges against several American soldiers for what they did). They were simply scenes of... the cost of war, shall we say. Dead civilians, bombed out buildings/cars/military vehicles... a pair of youths holding up an RPG round. The worst were pictures of dismemberments (probably from explosions). Things like that. Not the atrocities of war... just the costs.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+May 5 2004, 01:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ May 5 2004, 01:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And what did you expect to see?
As far as the pictures go, the people should be punished, yes, but I don't see how this represents America. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It represents war, and that's nothing to be taken easy. People use words without deeply thinking about their meaning, and those pictures remind some people about the cruelty, inhumanity and terror of war, which is often forgotten. They show the real face of what reality is, and not how the media/government/certain people want it to be. And this leads to the questions whether any idea could justify such acts. Can any thought, any ideology, justify even a single death of some uninvolved human being? Those pictures just remind us that life is standing about everything else. It doesn't matter who is responsible for that cruelty, be it the USA, Saddam Hussein or who ever. But those responsible are to be condemned for the consequences of their actions. In this case it is the USA having invaded Iraq.
forlorn is right, lets remember the reasons for this war.
its important we remember that Iraq had weapons of... oh no wait a second..
well, never mind the weapons, at least Iraqis are less likely to find themselves the victims of murder or torture these days.. oh no wait thats not true either
well at least we can all agree the world is now a safer place, with less terrorists, and more general love for the Americans and British as a whole.. oh no wait etc etc etc.
Here's some new <a href='http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0505041torture1.html' target='_blank'>stuff</a>: an army report on the abuses.
edit: ooh, I'm full of links today <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <a href='http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/97summer/schnau.htm' target='_blank'>An interesting article on using war-trained infantry for peacekeeping.</a>
I can probably find some pictures of mangled, headless, armless, bloodied people on one of the Iraqi blogs. I saw them, but I forgot which blog it was. Is it because the government is trying to censor the pictures ? Is it because the media is a tool?
Nah. People don't want to see it, it makes them sick, it makes them flip the channel, that makes bad business. The American public can see if they want to, it's not entirely difficult to find. The administration has no control over what CNN airs, or any of the like. I don't see a big conservative conspiracy in trying to control businesses from airing things, they choose what they want to air. Originally, the Nightline producers were hesistant to air it, fearing it would generate bad ratings, but they did it anyways to experiment. It got a 4.4 on the Nielsens, which was better than average for them. It's not a big taboo zone, businesses are concerned about business first, then idealogy. Maybe others will follow Nightlines lead, maybe not, I think they're pushing the line with what Americans want to hear, the ball is in their court.
Comments
This is not the topic at hand so I'll say this then drop it:
These two issues (Bush and Kerry) have nothing to do with patriotism. These are specific snipes focussed on the credibility of would-be elected officials. On both sides, it is a question of Trust, not Patriotism.
I don't buy into that excuse. It's not like you can identify the soldiers in those coffins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The families can, and that's the people that they're trying to respect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO it is more respectful to allow images like that to be shown. It seems disrespectful to me to treat the fallen as some sort of "dirty secret".
Showing mangled bodies is one thing, but a flag-draped coffin shows how the dead are treated with honour for their sacrifice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont you think its up to the families to decide what is respectfull?
Im not against the images, but rather the context in how they are being used. I have seen these images used in a form of protest to the war that those soldiers died for.
As for the photographer being punished for the pictures, he/she should be punished. They worked for a transportation company and violated a trust between the company and their client by taking unauthorized photos.
Please, no conspiracy theories here. If I were sitting next to you and you said that, I would smack you. The link went down; the photos have probably been mirrored a thousand times over different websites by now. Use a search engine. In case anyone is too lazy to do that, the photos consist mainly of pictures of tanks, soldiers with guns, and mangled bodies. There's pictures of a downed Iraq Air passenger jet, a panorama picture of Baghdad, and a picture of Iraqi civillians smiling and waving at troops in a jeep.
As for the issue of pictures of the flag draped coffins, I think that people are trying to respect the wishes of the families, who, in the majority of cases, don't want to see these pictures everywhere, because it's too soon and too sad for them. Also, a large number of the pictures that have been floating around for a while now are not pictures of soldiers killed in the war, they're pictures of astronauts killed in the Challenger explosion. Officials have been trying to put a stop to the confusion and (in some cases deliberate) misrepresentation.
If I were the one cancelling the broadcast of reading of names for an hour, I'd do it not because it's an "anti war political statement" but because my company would stand to lose a lot of money over it. Advertisers would pull, ratings would plummet (because very few people are going to sit and watch Koppel read names for an hour.) The media is driven by one thing these days: money. It's all privately owned and for profit.
And to the origional statement of "you won't see these on the news": I do, although admittedly not some of the most graphic images (as children might see them.)
those particular photos may have been hoaxed, but a report carried out by the army itself found evidence of things which go beyond cruel and into the realms of perverted and just plain sick, were going on in at least one Baghdad prison.
Point taken about some veiwers being too 'soft' to hear such things, and its certainly not on to broadcast such information while children might hear it, but theres a big difference between seeing, say, an Iraqi gunned down, and hearing the words 'Insurgents killed' (because lets face it, we never hear of civilian deaths over here, every civilian to die in Iraq was an insurgent as far as the news is concerned [there cant be a 'small number of insurgents' as were continuously told when there were somthing like 1300 Iraqis killed last month alone, were they all insurgents?]). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, about the prison... the prison was orginally used by Saddam as a torture chamber.
It's like one regime move in, and another took over. It makes us look no different.
I am personally disgusted and those soldiers are a complete disgrace to America. I am very glad they are being court martialed at the very least.
those particular photos may have been hoaxed, but a report carried out by the army itself found evidence of things which go beyond cruel and into the realms of perverted and just plain sick, were going on in at least one Baghdad prison.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have been more specific; that's what I meant (that set of pictures hoaxed).
Here are some of the pictures, for those of you who are interested - <a href='http://www.local6.com/news/3250508/detail.html' target='_blank'>linky</a>. edit: these are the photos that aren't being accused of forgery, the ones that were probably on the dead link from the first page. <span style='color:white'>Nope, those aren't them. See below. --coil</span>
And more on what I was saying (the hoaxed photos were apparently black and white and of brittish troops, the photos of the US antics are in dull color):
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, serious doubts have emerged over the veracity of the pictures. One anonymous military source, speaking to the BBC, questioned whether the photographs had even been taken in Iraq.
The source said that the rifle carried by one soldier in the photographs was an SA-80 Mk1, of a type not issued to troops in Iraq, and that the troops in Iraq wore berets, rather than the floppy hats seen in the image. The source also claimed that the Bedford truck in which the torture was apparently carried out was not of a type used in Iraq. The sharp quality of the images, the lack of movement and the absence of any sweat, dirt and injuries on the captive, a man said to have been arrested for theft and subjected to an eight-hour beating, have also raised doubts over their authenticity.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=404&id=501342004' target='_blank'>Source</a>
And, according to <a href='http://www.space.com/news/columbia_coffins_040423.html' target='_blank'>space.com</a>, the coffin pictures that are being widely heralded as casualties of the war in Iraq are actually the fallen crew of the recent shuttle disaster.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, eagle-eyed NASA-watchers as well as NASA employees recognized some of the images as being from February 5, 2003, when the remains of the space shuttle's crew were brought to the Dover Air Force Base in Dover, Delaware.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The article is an interesting read, as the whole episode sheds a fresh light on how the media and public's attention works.
I don't buy into that excuse. It's not like you can identify the soldiers in those coffins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The families can, and that's the people that they're trying to respect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO it is more respectful to allow images like that to be shown. It seems disrespectful to me to treat the fallen as some sort of "dirty secret".
Showing mangled bodies is one thing, but a flag-draped coffin shows how the dead are treated with honour for their sacrifice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont you think its up to the families to decide what is respectfull?
Im not against the images, but rather the context in how they are being used. I have seen these images used in a form of protest to the war that those soldiers died for.
As for the photographer being punished for the pictures, he/she should be punished. They worked for a transportation company and violated a trust between the company and their client by taking unauthorized photos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you could identify the bodies of those shown in the coffins I'd agree that not getting the families consent seems disrespectful.
Otherwise I view this as no different than a blanket news statement such as "10 US soldiers were killed in Iraq today". You don't know who those 10 soldiers are, and I doubt the families had any say as to whether or not there loved ones death could be acknowledged in such a statement.
As far as the context in which they are used. I see this as really an "eye of the beholder" issue. You can look at such pictures and feel a sense of patriotism or you can feel disgusted with the whole war in general. It's up to the individual to decide.
I saw the photos on the first page before the link went down. Nothing even came close to that bad.
The worst photo from the first page was probably the severed leg just sitting in the middle of the road.
Of the 4 pages of pictures (probably 15-20 pics per page) from the dead link, only about 10-12 pictures showed people with any kind of injuries. And all were civillians, there were absolutely no pictures taken indoors except 1-2 in a hospital, and absolutely none that featured any prisoners at all.
As far as the pictures go, the people should be punished, yes, but I don't see how this represents America.
As far as the pictures go, the people should be punished, yes, but I don't see how this represents America. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It represents war, and that's nothing to be taken easy. People use words without deeply thinking about their meaning, and those pictures remind some people about the cruelty, inhumanity and terror of war, which is often forgotten. They show the real face of what reality is, and not how the media/government/certain people want it to be. And this leads to the questions whether any idea could justify such acts. Can any thought, any ideology, justify even a single death of some uninvolved human being?
Those pictures just remind us that life is standing about everything else. It doesn't matter who is responsible for that cruelty, be it the USA, Saddam Hussein or who ever. But those responsible are to be condemned for the consequences of their actions. In this case it is the USA having invaded Iraq.
We must be constantly remember why the war is such an awful thing so we feel inclined to be pushed towards an anti-war agenda?
Please. War is war, modern war hasn't changed since world war 1 and 2.
It's horrific, but it doesn't mean it's not nessesarly in vain.
its important we remember that Iraq had weapons of... oh no wait a second..
well, never mind the weapons, at least Iraqis are less likely to find themselves the victims of murder or torture these days.. oh no wait thats not true either
well at least we can all agree the world is now a safer place, with less terrorists, and more general love for the Americans and British as a whole.. oh no wait etc etc etc.
edit: ooh, I'm full of links today <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <a href='http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/97summer/schnau.htm' target='_blank'>An interesting article on using war-trained infantry for peacekeeping.</a>
Nah. People don't want to see it, it makes them sick, it makes them flip the channel, that makes bad business. The American public can see if they want to, it's not entirely difficult to find. The administration has no control over what CNN airs, or any of the like. I don't see a big conservative conspiracy in trying to control businesses from airing things, they choose what they want to air. Originally, the Nightline producers were hesistant to air it, fearing it would generate bad ratings, but they did it anyways to experiment. It got a 4.4 on the Nielsens, which was better than average for them. It's not a big taboo zone, businesses are concerned about business first, then idealogy. Maybe others will follow Nightlines lead, maybe not, I think they're pushing the line with what Americans want to hear, the ball is in their court.