Christian Miracles... Nothing Impressive.
Confuzor
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2412Awaiting Authorization
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2412Awaiting Authorization
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">You have to see it for yourself.</div> A question to the reader: Can you accept the existence of a miracle without having seen it yourself?
I had a talk with a friend after Christian fellowship yesterday, and he's always gets word of some of the most amazing stories. I'm not going to reiterate them here, as most of you will think that I'm BSing. For myself, while I don't necessarily doubt the authenticity of the story, it just seems so incredulous that I can't find myself relating to it. It seems like a lot of people complain that if God wants them to believe in Him, all he needs to do is create a fantastic miracle. And I'm sure these miracles exist... we simply aren't impressed by them because we don't experience it ourselves.
For a moment, I thought I could give the excuse that since these miracles are so outstanding, why wouldn't they make headline news? The problem being that in doing so, the news service appears biased in favour of a religion, and their credibility would diminish. Even if something as big as CNN reported something as odd as a dead man coming back to life, we already have walls of doubt set up to counter this illogical occurence - a hoax, a doctor's report that while this is extremely rare it can still occur, an explanation that modern science cannot currently supply but will in the future, etc.
Another problem arising is that while I believe that genuine miracles exist, there is indeed a whole **** load of hoaxes out there (i.e., Peter Popov), and it simply gets tiring sifting out which ones are real and which ones aren't. And as I said before, they can make cool stories, but they mean nothing to your personally.
With the amount of obstacles obstructing the miraculous wonder of miracles in our society, it doesn't seem like any wonder that we here some of the most amazing miracles happening (seemingly exclusive) in the third world countries. Since those nations have a tendency of favouring mysticism and the supernatural over science, the walls of skepticism that we have built don't exist for them, and therefore, miracles occuring there are more easily digestible.
I can say that for myself, miracles don't mean very much to me, having never felt anything amazing. I'd say that after my mom's death, my attitude on miracles is that "Miracles exist, but they just aren't going to happen for me." Even if I did personally experience a miracle today, chances are that I'd be able to come up with some sort of secular explanation (the lack of anything special in my life is probably Satan's best weapon).
Any thoughts on miracles?
One thing I wanted to add... can anyone list any non-Judeo-Christians miracles that have occurred in other religions? (links would be appreciated) I often hear about Christian miracles and would like to see what supernatural occurrences happen in other religions. Unfortunately, since most weblinks on search engines are western-minded, they are much harder to find.
I had a talk with a friend after Christian fellowship yesterday, and he's always gets word of some of the most amazing stories. I'm not going to reiterate them here, as most of you will think that I'm BSing. For myself, while I don't necessarily doubt the authenticity of the story, it just seems so incredulous that I can't find myself relating to it. It seems like a lot of people complain that if God wants them to believe in Him, all he needs to do is create a fantastic miracle. And I'm sure these miracles exist... we simply aren't impressed by them because we don't experience it ourselves.
For a moment, I thought I could give the excuse that since these miracles are so outstanding, why wouldn't they make headline news? The problem being that in doing so, the news service appears biased in favour of a religion, and their credibility would diminish. Even if something as big as CNN reported something as odd as a dead man coming back to life, we already have walls of doubt set up to counter this illogical occurence - a hoax, a doctor's report that while this is extremely rare it can still occur, an explanation that modern science cannot currently supply but will in the future, etc.
Another problem arising is that while I believe that genuine miracles exist, there is indeed a whole **** load of hoaxes out there (i.e., Peter Popov), and it simply gets tiring sifting out which ones are real and which ones aren't. And as I said before, they can make cool stories, but they mean nothing to your personally.
With the amount of obstacles obstructing the miraculous wonder of miracles in our society, it doesn't seem like any wonder that we here some of the most amazing miracles happening (seemingly exclusive) in the third world countries. Since those nations have a tendency of favouring mysticism and the supernatural over science, the walls of skepticism that we have built don't exist for them, and therefore, miracles occuring there are more easily digestible.
I can say that for myself, miracles don't mean very much to me, having never felt anything amazing. I'd say that after my mom's death, my attitude on miracles is that "Miracles exist, but they just aren't going to happen for me." Even if I did personally experience a miracle today, chances are that I'd be able to come up with some sort of secular explanation (the lack of anything special in my life is probably Satan's best weapon).
Any thoughts on miracles?
One thing I wanted to add... can anyone list any non-Judeo-Christians miracles that have occurred in other religions? (links would be appreciated) I often hear about Christian miracles and would like to see what supernatural occurrences happen in other religions. Unfortunately, since most weblinks on search engines are western-minded, they are much harder to find.
Comments
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Considering that people used to think lightning was the wrath of Satan/God and that plagues of locusts were Gods anger, I think that is more based on ignorance of natural phenomena than anything else.
I find it hard to swallow, for example, when someone claims that the virgin mary was hovering over their kitchen sink that nobody would be able to take a photo of it. In todays world, I'm even LESS likely to believe someone as to such events, especially with the INCREDIBLE access to things like digital camers, computers, videos and such.
Evidence should be simple to produce really, but never is.
Evidence should be simple to produce really, but never is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is just his point.
If I did take a photo of the virgin mary hovering over my sink, it would be immediately de-bunked as a hoax. It would take a photoshop expert only a few minutes to put someting like that together. Which is more likley, the fact that I saw the virgin mary above my sink or I got my mate to stick somethng together in 5 minutes?
I've heard some reports of the arabic word for Allah appearing in clouds and other places, but it doesn't seem like something I'd believe, much less base my entire creed around.
Conf, ever read <u>Eternity in Their Hearts?</u>
Even supposing that there are miracles at all, it is still extremely likely that there are far more that are hoaxed/halucinated than actually true.
Here's are some more likly explanations to this and other things: <a href='http://www.skepdic.com/selfdeception.html' target='_blank'>Self Deception,</a> <a href='http://www.skepdic.com/confirmbias.html' target='_blank'>Confirmation Bias,</a>
<a href='http://www.skepdic.com/selectiv.html' target='_blank'>Selective Confirmation,</a> <a href='http://www.skepdic.com/truebeliever.html' target='_blank'>the "True-believer" Syndrome,</a> <a href='http://www.skepdic.com/wishfulthinking.html' target='_blank'>Wishful Thinking,</a> or something related.
As usual, what comes to mind first is <a href='http://www.skepdic.com/occam.html' target='_blank'>Occam's razor;</a> its application would strongly favor your friends either 1) making it up or 2) perceiving incorrectly (see above).
Otherwise, god has a really strange sense of humor.
You could say it's a miracle they're well again.
You could say, they wanted to live, and fought off the disease.
You could say, their body metabolized their diet in a more efficient way, leading to a more productive use of drugs and antibiotics (and the bodies natural immune responses), that finally killed off the disease.
You also have to support occam's razor, the idea that the simplest idea is usually the correct one (although you have to becareful with this, because it has to make some sense, you don't say the sky is blue because it wants to be, sure it's simple, but it bears absolutely no evidence).
That's going back into a scientific world again. I think this is more of an opinion whether someone thinks science is more important than spirituality. Because anything someone can say is a miracle is generally easily debunked by scientific evidence. History has shown that miracles we can't explain today will have explanations in the future.
I think miracles come today in the form of science. When someone gets the idea to put that Carbon atom in this posistion in their drug to create something that can defend against infection. When this person creates a safety harness that is more cost effective and safer. They're indirectly saving lives. They don't add to peoples beliefs, but...
Imagine a world without velcro, computers or easy to make fire don't exist. Technology and imagination are the only miracles we need, and you don't need to believe in anyone or anything to accept that they exist.
...This could also indirectly be your miracles too, because your mind construes events into a diferent perception than me, but it's coming from your imagination, because you imagine that God healed someone and I imagine that they healed themselves (through a scientific means). Both are equally well, because we know the person is better.
The basic idea of the film is that God gives one man his powers, and he can do what ever he wants with them. The man Bruce, uses his powers to part his bowl of soup (like parting the red sea)
God talks to him afterwards and tells him "Parting your soup was nothing more than a magic trick. A single mom who works 2 jobs with 3 kids and still finds time to take her sone to football practice, thats a miracle."
I think than when people think of miracles, they think of things like people getting raised from the dead or walking on water, but there are other sorts of miracles, like what UltimaGecko said about technology. Things that are so everyday, we don't even think twice about them, but when we stop and concentrate on them, they are pretty miraculous.
No.
I hardly beleive that i'll see one, thats why i try to do things the safe way as much as i can, i wouldn't say i saved my life, but i've definetly saved my arm or leg a few times just because being as careful as possible, i could say it was a miracle, but it simply was not.
for example, we were havning a BB guns fight in our school two years ago, it was about 7 pm when the school was empty, so we usaully climbed up the buildings and camped there. Soon the 'other team' came up there as well and started shooting us, which never happened, we ran like idiots on the roof, and i slipped from the roof to between a tree and some kind of a small roof attached to the building, i could have died there if i slipped an half meter away, still i wouldn't declare it as a miracle, it was more like a big luck and since then i'm just more careful with the things i do..
What can i say, im hyperactive, i've broke my arm twice, broke my nose, 'opened' my head from the forehead, and 2 years later from the back of it. (but i still look as well as i looked before :D )
well since that time on the roof i realised how lucky i am, and i'm ALOT more safer than i used to be... I'm 15 years old btw.
I agree with Mr TabooFires up there when he said that Miracles really don't make much of a difference to belief. I don't/can't believe in God, any kind of after life or even souls. The whole thing sounds daft too me. That means that after my Mom died and my speaker fell off the shelf and stopped working I attributed it to the fact my music was at top volume and the whole house was vibrating. However my spiritualist friend further down the road told me it was 'a sign' from her, that she was watching over me (and presumably didn't like my music).
Now I tried to get my speaker to fall off again and it did, if it was left near the edge for too long it would slowly slide off but otherwise it took ages (I couldn't test it too long as the neighbours weren't happy). The problem is I don't know how close to the edge my speaker was, there is a very good chance it worked its way from the back of the shelf to the front over the space of a few weeks. In fact, thats exactly what I believe happened. However the spiritualist got very upset when I kept telling her my Mom wasn't gonna come back from the dead just to try and break my stereo.
To summarise, she is convinced it was a miracle and it has strengthed her believe (and caused me hassle when she told everyone how I was affected by a miracle), I put it down to physics. We won't change at all.
If she can except a miracle like that then she can accept any amount of weird things, I however believe in science, coincedence and sods law. The closest I have to faith is a strong belief in the power of irony. Gets me every fluffin time:)
There are verses in the bible saying that christians can handle serpents and drink poison and not be harmed. Empiracle evidence suggests that this is not always the case... and in situations that it does work on show, it's either VERY diluted poison, or the snake in question is being handled with human-attainable skill. On the otherhand, a missionary in a jungle... doing work that needs to be done, bringing medicine and food to starving people... surrounded by snakes but is not harmed, or eats/drinks tainted food/water because nothing else is available. That's a miracle, that accomplishes something, and that happens. I believe it because I've talked to those that have had it happen to them.
It isn't about the miracle. It's about doing the job, and having the tools available to do it. Through Him all things are possible, and this is true. Is impressing a congregation or making headlines a worthy task, a goal you should be persuing? No. Is saving lives, bringing salvation, doing the good work? Yes... and here is where things actually manifest.
Is it testable in labratory conditions? No... because the very act of labratory conditions removes the goal and the point. Will sceptics disbelieve anyway? Yes, because obviously the event is not going to be RECORDED, and so obviously something that wasn't recorded is up for denial, extensibly so because it isn't nessesarily repeatable.
Think of it this way: You have a job to do that's more important than anything in the world. To take it out of religious areas, say you need to defuse a time bomb set at the center of the earth that will destroy the world. While doing this job, you find that you have spontaneously generated magical powers of whatever sort. Do you:
A) Defuse the bomb
or
B) Go to the newspapers, and waste time showing the world how awesome your 1337 s|<illz are?
Then you find that when the mission is over, you can no longer manifest the powers. Of course, you no longer NEED to. Does it matter?
Just a thought.
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You could choose to believe you're hallucinating or dreaming too.
Or lightning could have struck the bush, and then someone nextdoor is playing the TV really loud, so you think that's what happening...Then your dog asks for a cup of coffee.
err...anyway...Free will would still exist if spontaneous things did happen. You wouldn't be forced to follow him [or her, I guess] (although you might be more prone to do it, since you have better evidence).
My point is we are supposed to find him by ourselves, he isn't supposed to come down and try and convince us...