B4
camO_o
Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28028Members
Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28028Members
<div class="IPBDescription">thoughts and opinions</div> well, i really don't know what to say about b4. i'm grateful to Flayra for having made this patch, but to be honest, it's really not what I expected, after waiting for two months. heck, B3 came out in two weeks or so! anyway, that aside, here's what I think of the changes in the patch:
<b>O Removed wave spawn to shorten game length (only one person spawning at a time). </b>
my first response to this was: What. The. &@^!. most people I've talked to seem to agree. the 25% spawn rate in b3 really turned the tides of the game as the aliens could easily capitalize on the slow spawn rate thanks to their highly mobile units, while the marines were basically stuck in their base until they could get jetpacks (of course, most pub marines went heavy armor anyways). this resulted in aliens winning nearly 2/3 of the time. i'm sure Flayra had a good reason to do this, but I just can't see it. this change has really made me question if Flayra listens to his veterans, or even understands the mechanics of his own game.
<b>O Increased unlock hive ability 3 cost from 1 to 2</b>
no biggie, unless you're a xeno nub or gorgie **** D:.
<b>O Aliens now gain experience slowly over time</b>
more alien buffs, even though they were the dominate race in combat by far in b3. again, WTH?
<b>O Reduced number of entities in ns_tanith from 394 to 264 for improved server performance (thanks tommyd!)</b>
just a note, if tommyd ever reads this: the new tanith isn't compatible with tanith demos from b3 due to a missing model or something. any chance you could fix this next patch? ^_^
<b>O No longer play client-side sparks or bullet impact particles on client when shotgun pellets hit a player or water (graphical bug only)</b>
there's been a bit of controversy and confusing about this change. some people say that it only prevents sparks from showing up when the dreaded Shotgun Hitbox Bug (SHB) occurs. others say that the bug has been completely fixed. finally, some people claim that flayra considers the "shotgun bug" to be nothing but a graphical error, which concerns me, because when even the best of the best players complain about this bug, it's probably not just a lame excuse for getting pwned.
<b>O Improved HLTV support. Blips still aren't drawing on the overview map, and some of the UI controls don't work very well, but it should be useable. More to come.</b>
FINALLY. too bad it came after the CAL finals though.
<b>O New welder, machine gun, pistol, hmg, metabolize and shotty sounds from MadMaxx
- Tweak welder ROF for variety
- Hand grenade sounds</b>
besides the shotgun sound (which sounds like ol' farmer john's shotgun) and the metabolize sound (ewww) this is pretty kickass.
<b>O Removed energy cost for lerk flight (to encourage flight while using abilities)</b>
eh, this is a testy topic, as it's new and I haven't tested it, but it's already opened up a variety of showstopping exploits (i.e. pancake lerk: fly up and down really fast while sporing, hard to hit, and a big distraction). on ns_ maps, lerks that use anything but the abilities is a dead lerk anyway. this just allows them more breathing room to get away when they need it. on co_ though, it's a different story. what that is - i don't know yet, maybe i'll go lerk tomorrow D:.
as for the map changes, whatever happened to metal is great (i never got to know the map that well, but at least it looks great). the veil changes are by far the best, except for that vent in cargo that's too small for skulks to get through (eh...) Eclipse seems to be more balanced out, SAA is more alien friendly (although not by much), triad is MUCH more marine friendly, a semi-welcome change. the biggest problem is definitely the doors in marine start - this makes it really difficult for fades and skulks to come in and out of the room. given the incredible size of MS in eclipse already, the doors act as a super uber defense mechanism of dewm.
finally, a change that is so great, it deserves to be written out in <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>BIG BOLD WORDS: THE ELEVATORS IN NS_NOTHING ARE NOW FUNC_DOORS! THANK YOUR ALMIGHTY SQUIRREL!</b></span>
that is all.
<b>O Removed wave spawn to shorten game length (only one person spawning at a time). </b>
my first response to this was: What. The. &@^!. most people I've talked to seem to agree. the 25% spawn rate in b3 really turned the tides of the game as the aliens could easily capitalize on the slow spawn rate thanks to their highly mobile units, while the marines were basically stuck in their base until they could get jetpacks (of course, most pub marines went heavy armor anyways). this resulted in aliens winning nearly 2/3 of the time. i'm sure Flayra had a good reason to do this, but I just can't see it. this change has really made me question if Flayra listens to his veterans, or even understands the mechanics of his own game.
<b>O Increased unlock hive ability 3 cost from 1 to 2</b>
no biggie, unless you're a xeno nub or gorgie **** D:.
<b>O Aliens now gain experience slowly over time</b>
more alien buffs, even though they were the dominate race in combat by far in b3. again, WTH?
<b>O Reduced number of entities in ns_tanith from 394 to 264 for improved server performance (thanks tommyd!)</b>
just a note, if tommyd ever reads this: the new tanith isn't compatible with tanith demos from b3 due to a missing model or something. any chance you could fix this next patch? ^_^
<b>O No longer play client-side sparks or bullet impact particles on client when shotgun pellets hit a player or water (graphical bug only)</b>
there's been a bit of controversy and confusing about this change. some people say that it only prevents sparks from showing up when the dreaded Shotgun Hitbox Bug (SHB) occurs. others say that the bug has been completely fixed. finally, some people claim that flayra considers the "shotgun bug" to be nothing but a graphical error, which concerns me, because when even the best of the best players complain about this bug, it's probably not just a lame excuse for getting pwned.
<b>O Improved HLTV support. Blips still aren't drawing on the overview map, and some of the UI controls don't work very well, but it should be useable. More to come.</b>
FINALLY. too bad it came after the CAL finals though.
<b>O New welder, machine gun, pistol, hmg, metabolize and shotty sounds from MadMaxx
- Tweak welder ROF for variety
- Hand grenade sounds</b>
besides the shotgun sound (which sounds like ol' farmer john's shotgun) and the metabolize sound (ewww) this is pretty kickass.
<b>O Removed energy cost for lerk flight (to encourage flight while using abilities)</b>
eh, this is a testy topic, as it's new and I haven't tested it, but it's already opened up a variety of showstopping exploits (i.e. pancake lerk: fly up and down really fast while sporing, hard to hit, and a big distraction). on ns_ maps, lerks that use anything but the abilities is a dead lerk anyway. this just allows them more breathing room to get away when they need it. on co_ though, it's a different story. what that is - i don't know yet, maybe i'll go lerk tomorrow D:.
as for the map changes, whatever happened to metal is great (i never got to know the map that well, but at least it looks great). the veil changes are by far the best, except for that vent in cargo that's too small for skulks to get through (eh...) Eclipse seems to be more balanced out, SAA is more alien friendly (although not by much), triad is MUCH more marine friendly, a semi-welcome change. the biggest problem is definitely the doors in marine start - this makes it really difficult for fades and skulks to come in and out of the room. given the incredible size of MS in eclipse already, the doors act as a super uber defense mechanism of dewm.
finally, a change that is so great, it deserves to be written out in <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>BIG BOLD WORDS: THE ELEVATORS IN NS_NOTHING ARE NOW FUNC_DOORS! THANK YOUR ALMIGHTY SQUIRREL!</b></span>
that is all.
Comments
I believe this is untrue. A bouncy-lerk is almost imossible to hit with a lmg. The hitbox lags and the incredible speed boost from flying vertical will certainly screw things up. I'm sure this will be adressed in the next patch.
[edit] typos
I however too like the new flying without adren cost, makes it a bit easier to get away after an attack if you didn't watch your adrenaline level.
<b>The Good:</b> New updated maps, Most of Eclipse, and Veil seem to have improved gameplay potential.. Metal is improved significantly, and might be a good scrim map, but I think it needs one more rt for the 10 standard (only has 9 now). Small bug fixes here and then are good, especially dropping medpacks on uneven ground. Aliens getting exp naturally on combat. In early combat games, the optimal strategy for marines is to camp, and aliens are at a disadvantage early on. Aliens probably win more games because 1 to 1, alien higher lifeform (fade, onos) > level 10 marine of any caliber, however in the beginning, level 0 marine > level 0 skulk by a large margin IMHO. This allows aliens to play a more defensive game early on.
<b>The Bad: </b>
Waiting for the BUS, and then not being told what it is, even though "phase one has started" ??
Combat.. Combat is a lot more difficult now and I feel that ruins two important aspects of combat that I thought were useful: 1) newbies could experiment with higher level alien lifeforms without reprisal from vets or teammates about how bad they were, and 2) combat was basically an introduction to NS. I find that combat, with the new spawn system is MUCH shorter on avg, I've seen few games go past 4-5 minutes. If more then a couple people on a team die, that's the end of the game usually. How are people going to get introduced to NS:classic which is MUCH more forgiving about death in pub games, when the combat equivilant is much more difficult? Moreover, how will they get good at jetpacks / onos / fade if they will never get a chance to level to that point? Frankly, I didn't find long combat games that boring, and welcomed it as a chance to be level 10 whatever for practice or for mindless fun. But, in maybe 1-2 hours of combats on various maps, i've NEVER reached level 10. I got a jetpack maybe a couple times, and fade a couple times.. and the game was always over, win or loss, before I hit level 10.
Maps.. I know I told KFS about veil bugs, but yeah. How come none of this was noticed? There's a lot of missing textures in veil, broken vent, nobody even loaded the map in early testing? There's also texture bugs all over Daimos, and I think one other map IIRC (but I can't think of it right now). Hopefully this will be fixed soon! Veil is one of the best maps, and having this "unfinished" feel about it is kind of disconcerting.
<b>The Ugly: </b> Lerks.. I love the new non adren Lerk. It's a lot easier not having to worry about adren (more or less, same as fade blink now). However.. Bouncy lerks AKA Pancake Lerks, are impossible to hit. The vertical acceleration rivals or is faster then fade blink, and the hitbox is much smaller. You can't kill them with hmgs, lmgs, or shotguns, no matter how good your aim is. This is DEFINITELY balance-breaking and hopefully will be fixed ASAP. I hope they keep non-adren lerks, but I would definitely go back to the previous 3.0 lerk flight rather then keep this current version without a fix.
Hopefully Combat will be changed or go back to way it was, It's definitely shorter now, but definitely less fun by a large margin. I hope THAT wasn't the desired intention. I think if we really wanted to balance combat, marines should get more "total points". Does anyone else feel that 9 points aren't enough for marines? I can be a fully upgraded onos, or a super fade (fade with 5 upgrades).. and the best kind of people i'll go up against are heavies with level 2 guns or jps with level 2 guns. one on one, any person of equivilant strength, the fade should win. IMHO, marines should be able to get level 3 guns, level 2 armor + ha / jp and 2-3 misc upgrades. Combat should more or less make it so that on avg the alien team is as powerful as the marine team, how is that possible if the marines are only armor 2/wep2 usually?
Now, you are indeed kinda hard to hit as a "pancake lerk?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->" <- someone explain pls
Anyways, its not impossible, and one marine with good aim nearly had me twice 1v1. Another marine with good aim was also able to track me, and i got wasted in refinery with shotgun twice (yes, i got overconfident).
Its not that the "new" lerks are impossible to kill, its just people arent used to the movement it makes. People learn to shoot skulks running at them, people learn to shoot skulks leaping at them, people learn to shoot fades that blink around, so im sure, people will learn to shoot lerks that hover without flapping over time as well.
I believe this is untrue. A bouncy-lerk is almost imossible to hit with a lmg. The hitbox lags and the incredible speed boost from flying vertical will certainly screw things up. I'm sure this will be adressed in the next patch.
[edit] typos <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
With good aim, and wise enough to predict movement by looking is the lerk celerity or not, with celerity i usually aim 10 secs ahed of the lerk, and keep shooting ,wich usually hits, without celerity 4 or 6 secs, depends on type of flight.
And I also think that 9 Points are too less for Marines...
Maybe you could introduce a sv_max_alienpoints and sv_max_marinepoints for the server so the admins can find their own maximum? maybe you can introduce a fixed value in b6 or b7...
The ms in veil makes is easy for fades to blink behind that nice big pillar and give it a few moments to heal before rines can get to it... The vents are horrible, hard to get in to, and some u can't get in. The large open room to the left of dbl with the new vent in the floor has no purpose and should be removed now. It only leads to the vent.
The ms in eclipse reminds me of something from a fun map. Triad is now, agh, bad. Those pipes just dont look like they belong. The lowered ceiling in station... bah. And the brightening of the whole map, there are no longer any dark spots. It just feels like a fun map now, not somethin official.
I believe this is untrue. A bouncy-lerk is almost imossible to hit with a lmg. The hitbox lags and the incredible speed boost from flying vertical will certainly screw things up. I'm sure this will be adressed in the next patch.
[edit] typos <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With good aim, and wise enough to predict movement by looking is the lerk celerity or not, with celerity i usually aim 10 secs ahed of the lerk, and keep shooting ,wich usually hits, without celerity 4 or 6 secs, depends on type of flight. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
did I misunderstand that
or did you say you aim 10 seconds ahead of the lerk???
thats just crazy.
youd have to start shooting before the lerk was in the next room!
I'm getting married soon, packing up and moving to a new job, and moving my entire life to a new city and state, leaving behind everything I've known and loved for the last 20 years of my life. That's no excuse for any of these errors slipping in, but they're a damn good reason.
The vent is known and is something I'm incredibly upset and **** about. It shouldn't have slipped through, but it did. DEAL WITH IT. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> It'll be fixed. How did it get in? I always measure all the vents to have 40 unit entrances and 40-48 unit interiors (at least). Somewhere I plopped something down on the wrong gridline and didn't notice. I assume that things are on the gridline, and in checking the map do a quick noclip and then move on to the next one.
As for missing textures, I saw no such thing. I need to know where these are so I can figure out what texture is the problem. This is probably a sign that I'm using a different version of a .wad file somewhere. If that's the case, there's no way I can see the error and no way I can fix it.
Doors were an experiment, and will go in the next version.
ssjyoda: by "some," you mean "1." I know about it already and it will get fixed. Deal with it.
"reminds [you] of a fun map"? I have no idea what that's supposed to mean or how to repair it. Tossed out.
The functionality of the rooms to either side of nanogrid has been a concern of mine for some time. They're a work in progress.
The pipes in Triad aren't supposed to look like they belong, because I tossed them in to test the concept of a blocker there - I'm not going to spend the time and effort on a fancy thing that I'm just going to delete! I've mentioned this at least once before on the forums. If they stay, they get fixed up. They get deleted, no harm done.
As for the brightness, yes, it's brighter, and a bit moreso than but it's on a comparable level to Eclipse in 1.0, which I don't recall getting too many complaints (aside from the oft-mentioned [by me] crowd that still wanted pitch black maps with nothing but flashlights) Suddenly it burns the eyes or whatever else - I'm sorry, I don't buy that. It's brighter than I intended, yes, but not by much.
Now, you can be a **** about it and ensure that I ignore you or be helpful and ensure that the final versions of these maps resolve these issues and come out as solid as they possibly can. My life is in turmoil right now, but I'm still making the time and effort to try and make these the best damn maps they can possibly be, and a little more effort in helping me would be greatly appreciated. Not being granted that simple courtesy makes me more motivated to just drop the maps and leave the hacked up remains to the confused next person in line, because quite frankly it'd make my life a whole lot easier.
New sounds are nice!
Map changed are good.
The Bad...
New spawn system blows.
The 2 point cost for 4th skill... Good job making charge and acid rocket even more useless then before.
Very little changes... It seems like its more of an update with map changes.
New spawn system blows. (worth repeating)
I know there is only one vent that you can not get into, but the one by overlook, i have no idea why, i had trouble getting into. took me a while to manage getting in. The new ms, yes they look nice, but I really don't think they work playability wise. I don't understand why you changed them in the first place, I liked the originals anyway. The brightness thing, im just saying cause there are no dark areas anymore. If I set the brightness lvl for me so all other maps are playable, and look great, veil and eclipse are overly bright. I liked how the hives were dark, they should be, makes it easy for aliens, hard for rines. Sry, but the map changes look like a step backwards, not a step forwards to me.
Lerk is a bit overpowered now though, umbra is already pretty powerful, and the only way you could stop it was to kill the lerk (who usually stayed grounded to save energy for more umbra). Now it can just flap all over the place with celerity and it's nearly impossible to kill unless it gets blocked or someone gets lucky with a shotgun.
Marines should have unlimited jetpack fuel to help restore balance. Or, more preferably, just restore the lerk to the way it was.
Haven't played enough to comment on the map changes though.
We waitied how long for THIS?
i've been playing since 1.03 and have been pugging for a few months now. come again?
KFS: I like the changes to triad, the pipes are a bit out of place and ugly, but they server the purpose of partially eliminating one direction the skulks may approach from, making triad really much more marine friendly, which is really what it needed. i'd like to see that vent of dewm in PSJ go as well, that place is just a guaranteed death trap for marines.
Oh well - maybe next beta.
fair enough it could have just been a laggy hitbox but it was still annoying.
SKF is doing a job that he knows how to do and he is doing it well. Get off his case just because he made a mistake with a vent and punched in the wrong values for the lighting. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Besides the texture problem I see no reason why people should complian in so many strings, very few giving constructive critisism. If you read more then one string it is very easy to see how hard the developers have it, 10 people will hate the new lerk system and another 10 will think it is the best thing that has ever happend to NS. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Don't spend so much of your time complaining when you could be playing NS practicing your aim on a pancake lerk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In games where marines had under 5 players in Beta 3. It sucked. One spawn at a time created people dying one at a time to a group of hungry skulks. Which made it so people left the server, and it died for the night.
Now this happens even with a full team of 8. The problem lies here...
Aliens can move faster than marines pre-jetpak.(even after) When an alien dies, he can quickly get back to the marine CC room. This means if a marine spawns, and kills an alien. The alien is back before said marine respawns again.
With beta 4 its like this all the time. The problem is, no games over 5 minutes are generally won by marines. If aliens get fades ect, its pretty much over for the marines. I have seen marines win, but it has always been a quick rush with upgrading to shotties and killing spawning skulks(which is great fun). But...if a fade pops up, or an Onos.....different story.
The problem is, if ONE Onos spawns, it lives for a decent amount of time. A fade can blink away, blink in kill, blink away ect. If one marine spawns he CANNOT get away from 6 aliens in his CC room. Its almost impossible(even with jetpak).
If one alien spawns around a bunch of marines(besides a gorge) they have a good chance of getting away. An Onos can take alot of damage, thus allowing another alien to spawn while Onos is alive. A skulk can leap, fade blink, lerk fly away.
This means they can recover from a spawn camp much better than marines.
I personally have nothing against spawn camping, if your whole team dies, I guess you lost right? The problem is most players don't like this, and don't enjoy it. When marines lose 3 times in a row like this players leave the server. Players quit.
Im not sure if this was the intention, to make people shift to NS, but if combat is their first experience and they get to spawn, get bitten and die, they generally won't make it to Classic. They'll just quit altogether.
I do think a ratio needs to be worked. Depending on # of players on a team perhaps? But marines spawning 2 at a time is not making it so games last too long. When 2 onos spawn, or 2 fades, thats a different story. Perhaps its a weighted scale. First 5 minutes of match its 1 marine 1 alien. After the first 5 minutes its 2 marines 1 alien ect.
I saw someone AFK for 10:36 on a server. As an alien AFK, he achieved level 5 1/2 by just being afk too...thats kinda...well...
I guess my main point is...I enjoy combat. I enjoy Classic as well(i have fun as a gorge), but combat is where I enjoy an action oriented fast paced game of Natural Selection. I see combat dying because of marines being camped. I don't even go ALien most of the time now because it just isn't fun. If I play my best I end up causing the game to be a spawn camping the marines fest, and people leave. I'm not trying to boast, its just too easy to Focus/Celerity kill 3-5 marines in a short period of time and cause the game to end and have the entire marine team be upset at the game.
**EDIT** Oh, and I don't mind the new changes myself, I can adapt, I just don't think the general playerbase will. All I see are people leaving games and not having fun alot of the time. I kind of enjoy getting out of a spawn kill myself, nothing like getting lucky and killing 4 skulks with a shotty while your team cheers at you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have seen the shotgun bug and he has a very valid point about it. It too concerns me that its actual effect is not really known, whether its purely graphical or if the hitboxes are actually behind the models, but i'm convinced something is not quite right, i've seen skulks take full shotguns shots at nearly point blank with sparks going everwhere, but no death.
One other thing, i noticed this in the changelog :
- Restored ns_eclipse.wad
What does this mean exactly? Could this possibly be what is causing the missing textures, which i have seen in co_ulysses, ns_metal, ns_agora and probably a few others. Perhaps a texture(s) being used by these maps were accidentally deleted or renamed?