The Balance Issue In Combat

Ballisto · April 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">Summed up</div> <span style='color:red'><span style='font-family:Courier'><b>Early game:</b></span></span> skulks = marines
<span style='color:red'><span style='font-family:Courier'><b>Mid game:</b></span></span> marines with shotties > skulks
<span style='color:red'><span style='font-family:Courier'><b>End game:</b></span></span> fades and onos > jpers heavies

These are all APROXIMATE for equal numbers of equal skilled players. Of course they don't happen all the time, but I think we all agree on these.

I don't think it's possible to balance a game at EVERY STAGE, but I think if we talk about this we can get some good insights.

Salvation_r2 · April 2004

play the game more, and you will find

fade>all

Carling · April 2004

in most combat games skull is enough to win with. only time i worry is against ha but even thoes fall to team work. Onos vs JP :/ hide onos! Lol

Forlorn · April 2004

There is one way to win in combat on public marines, have about 3/4's of your team get GL's, and the remaining should get HMG's, and everyone should have JP's

Your base will be invincible and whenever you decide to attack their hive it will go up in a giant boom

Of course, in a semi-decent-semi-real match in competetive play, this would never work, simply because grenades kill YOUR TEAM. Of course, does this pertain in pubs?

HELL NO

Now go and exploit eveyrone go go go go go go expose combat for the wicked flawed game it is!

This isn't a guarenteed win, in fact marines generally will not win, but it sure delays the game another 40 min, making combat that much more explosive!

Woot!

e_Nadagast · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ballisto @ Apr 8 2004, 08:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <span style='color:red'><span style='font-family:Courier'><b>Early game:</b></span></span> skulks = marines  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
lol what? No way in hell.. marines own skulks.

Salvation_r2 · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Apr 8 2004, 10:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ballisto @ Apr 8 2004, 08:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <span style='color:red'><span style='font-family:Courier'><b>Early game:</b></span></span> skulks = marines </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
lol what? No way in hell.. marines own skulks.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
what he is saying it depends on the skill

a good skulk>arv marine

good marine>adv skulk

ect <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' />

ipxvortex_peter · April 2004

I think if ya slip past, the imbalance is early in a combat match, the aliens are at marine start in no time. But this relies on other variables, like if rines were incompetant.

I think co_faceoff is imbalanced when it comes to this, I find it 100% easy to get to marine start and own like hell on fire. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' />

im_lost · April 2004

If the skulk doesn't rush into the marine base where all the marines are camping, then the skulk has quite good odds. Of course, most games start with marines waiting for the rush, and skulks rushing in, just like the beginning of a 1.04 game (except that in 1.04, aliens benefitted from their whole team being dead).

MistenTH · April 2004

A single xeno skulk will utterly shred low armour marines, and strip naked those with armour. That sets up marines to death by a single focus bite or even normal bites. And these 2 abilities only need 2 levels. No matter what gun you are carrying, even a GL, a homing leaping xeno-skulk is nearly impossible to stop.

If a marine team gets mostly GL, then GG since the heavily armoured fades will just blink over your nades, absorb the 100-200 damage worth that you suicided at your feet and rape you. Thriply so for onos.

im_lost · April 2004

A shotgun can kill the skulk before xeno goes off.

Apos · April 2004

Honestly, I don't think there hard and fast balance advantages at any stage. Except for some specific map issues (not enough vents on some, easy spawn kill of rines on another), combat is pretty darn balanced: even more balanced than regular NS.

XCan · April 2004

The jp in combat is rediculess, since being a gorge is boring and hated most of the time, many games ends with a couple of jpers enter hive room, shoot the hive until they die -> repeat a couple of times and the hive is gone. Sure someone should've gone gorge, but it's so boring and marines have the advantage to be able to fight AND repair.

BlueNovember · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Apr 9 2004, 01:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> A shotgun can kill the skulk before xeno goes off.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
However if the skulk xenos before he leaps into a mass of rines, the odds of one of them hitting in the .5 second delay are hopelessly low.

Boom.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' />

Align · April 2004

Yeah, 2 upgrade paths for skulk at level 3 allows them to totally flip out and kill people. Either 1. Leap->Xeno (invoke Xenospam) or 2. Leap->upgrade X(if you're me, focus, if you're not good with leap, carapace or silence).
Cloakus doesn't allow you to flip out, since you kill one shotgun marine and that's it, you just got shot by his teammates.

Kaze · April 2004

combat lerk > all

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Align · April 2004

Except combat fade, of course.

Fro5ty · April 2004

It's not just in CO that JPs are a problem. In NS, a good JPer can grab a shotty and JP and go into a hive room, get a bit of medspam and the hive is gone. The JP's flight system is like the old lerk one's pretty much. That allows marines to be TOO agile. The system should either be reinvented (like the lerks) or tweaked some more. You can get half-way across a map if you crouch jump and just tap the space bar to keep in the air. You more so fast that a lerk can't catch you without celerity and a lotta flapping.

Off topic- Maybe the new system for NS is a fixed JP flight model? Or the inclusion and semi-balancing of MvM games? NSA plays MvM maps that are CS ports, if you get on there and play one, you will see what I mean by being balanced. (Pistol=AWP)

Palin · April 2004

The pistol needs to be neutered in any case. I don't see why it is specifically a balance issue for MvM. Considering I can take out a skulk with less bullets using a pistol than with an lmg. I figure if it takes 11 bullets to kill a skulk with lmg then it should take 11 with the pistol. Afterall, they make the lmg your MAIN weapon for a REASON. Now if you're concerned that there aren't 11 bullets in a pistol clip then I'd have no argument upping that to 12. As is it SHOULD be used after you've given up with your main weapon's effectiveness or run out of ammo. At that point, your target should have little enough life to be killed in a matter of 4 bullets in the case of a skulk.

Granted I'm starting to apply logic to a game that is obviously filled with illogical and unrealistic facts, but then I always was an optimist. =P

Fro5ty · April 2004

The pistol in MvM is unbalanced, but in MvA it's rather balanced actually. Have you tried to shoot a celerity skulk with a pistol? It's not easy, that's why each shot does more damage. To compensate for the semi-auto fire rate and the small clip capacity. The entire point of the pistol was to be the long range solution for marines without making some form of rifle. If you would do like you said with the pistol, then what is it's point? Just increase the LMG clip size, and remove the pistol all together. I'd rather just pull my knife out and try to finish them or reload. Then at that point, you'd see more knife kills and people would want that nerfed...

As for the reason the pistol is unbalanced in MvM, you have slow moving targets with a basic 100% accuracy weapon with a lot of damage. A guy sits at a higher elevation and just snipes you. You may not die, but you will be hurting. Remember, the only difference between a marine h/a and a skulk h/a is 25/15. Two extra bullets and they're dead the same. But then again, that's nothing compared to GLs or JPs... >.<

ahho · April 2004

i just knew how to devour properly, so <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /> pwned you all!!!one111!!!

and i learn it from the weapon select picture aim low or crouch

Church · April 2004

Ummm...when did Marines vs Marines happen? Is it official? Is there a new patch I didn't know about?

PseudoKnight · April 2004

Probably just some FF fun.

Align · April 2004

Nope, check the mapping forums. A topic should be there saying Marine v Marine or something like that. Read it.
EDIT: it's inofficial, so it has a few problems like identical skins for both teams, but still.

The Balance Issue In Combat

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