A Religious Paradox

Forlorn · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Apr 4 2004, 10:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> An interesting idea came to me yesterday. Why aren't religious people (or at least the ones that believe in an afterlife) killing people more often? Now hold on there, before you say "wow this guy is crazy" and move on, think about it. If I were to kill a small child, chances are that child hasn't lived long enough to commit a sin worthly of landing him/her in whatever hell there might be, so I would be sending that child to heaven. Whereas had I let that child live longer it may have grown up to commit such a sin, and gone to hell. Yet religious people aren't drowning their children after birth to ensure them a good seat in heaven, so what am I missing? Well, the obvious answer is that killing is considered a sin in these religions as well, so I would be condeming myself to hell by doing such a thing. But that would make all those non-baby drowning religious folk selfish wouldn't it? I mean, they may wind up in hell for all eternity, but all those kids they slaughtered would get a free ride on the heaven gravy train. So really, what am I missing here?

Please, don't think that I'm only posting this because I'm, to put it mildly, not too fond of religion. I'm really curious. And I'd like to here the point argued for these religions in general, not just for one.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
That's because no one wants to send themselves to hell.

And oh yeah, morals too

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 11 2004, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 11 2004, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So God punishes His son for the failings of humans, correct?
Despite humans being made flawed by God, not Jesus, right?
And God is supposed to be a loving God, right?
I don't quite understand the logic there. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Jesus 'volunteered' to be punished. God needed a way of reconciling himself to his people, but, being perfectly just, he coulnd't just let them off the hook, someone had to go on the hook in their place, a sacrifice. This sacrifice had to be human, and he had to have done nothing wrong.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
So, explain to me exactly why:

(1)God needed to have someone to sacrifice to redeem humanity?

(2)Why God needed someone to have that human to have done nothing wrong?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 11 2004, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Humans were created perfect. "And God saw what he had made and it was Good." Not OK or "That'll do", but Good, perfect.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Good is not necessarily perfect, correct?
And if humans are perfect, then why is there the need for punishment in the afterlife?
Why did Adam and Eve disobey God in the Garden of Eden?
Why must humans constantly fight temptation?

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 11 2004, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But of course, man can do nothing meaningful unless he is given the free will to do whatever he wants. Man was created perfect, but was given the option to fall. We took that, and we take that way out every day.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So the perfect creation can fail. Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Unless God created us to fail the tests. So why does he get stroppy when we fail?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 11 2004, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It is for these transgressions that Christ was crucified. Not for inherant sinfulness, but for the fact that every single person on the face of the earth has freely chosen against God. Except, of course, for the infants we were discussing earlyer, who could not possibly understand such a thing.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I wasn't aware that all the jews (and since we're talking mainly about the old testiment, they were the Gods chosen) rejected God. I thought that they followed all the then written laws to the best of their ability...

Legionnaired · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So the perfect creation can fail. Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Unless God created us to fail the tests. So why does he get stroppy when we fail?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God did not create robots. We are given the ability to love God as much, or as little as we want, and for that to truly be free, we must have the ability to not love him at all. Free will was given to us, and we abused it by turning away from him.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I wasn't aware that all the jews (and since we're talking mainly about the old testiment, they were the Gods chosen) rejected God. I thought that they followed all the then written laws to the best of their ability...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Not so...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ( Ezek 16)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her detestable practices
3 and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says to Jerusalem: Your ancestry and birth were in the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite.
4 On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths.
5 No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised.
6 "'Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, "Live!"
7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare.
8 "'Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine.
9 "'I bathed you with water and washed the blood from you and put ointments on you.
10 I clothed you with an embroidered dress and put leather sandals on you. I dressed you in fine linen and covered you with costly garments.
11 I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck,
12 and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head.
13 So you were adorned with gold and silver; your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth. Your food was fine flour, honey and olive oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen.
14 And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15 "'But you trusted in your beauty and used your fame to become a prostitute. You lavished your favors on anyone who passed by and your beauty became his.
16 You took some of your garments to make gaudy high places, where you carried on your prostitution. Such things should not happen, nor should they ever occur.
17 You also took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them.
18 And you took your embroidered clothes to put on them, and you offered my oil and incense before them.
19 Also the food I provided for you--the fine flour, olive oil and honey I gave you to eat--you offered as fragrant incense before them. That is what happened, declares the Sovereign LORD.
20 "'And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough?
21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols.
22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.
23 "'Woe! Woe to you, declares the Sovereign LORD. In addition to all your other wickedness,
24 you built a mound for yourself and made a lofty shrine in every public square.
25 At the head of every street you built your lofty shrines and degraded your beauty, offering your body with increasing promiscuity to anyone who passed by.
26 You engaged in prostitution with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, and provoked me to anger with your increasing promiscuity.
27 So I stretched out my hand against you and reduced your territory; I gave you over to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were shocked by your lewd conduct.
28 You engaged in prostitution with the Assyrians too, because you were insatiable; and even after that, you still were not satisfied.
29 Then you increased your promiscuity to include Babylonia, a land of merchants, but even with this you were not satisfied.
30 "'How weak-willed you are, declares the Sovereign LORD, when you do all these things, acting like a brazen prostitute!
31 When you built your mounds at the head of every street and made your lofty shrines in every public square, you were unlike a prostitute, because you scorned payment.
32 "'You adulterous wife! You prefer strangers to your own husband!
33 Every prostitute receives a fee, but you give gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from everywhere for your illicit favors.
34 So in your prostitution you are the opposite of others; no one runs after you for your favors. You are the very opposite, for you give payment and none is given to you.
35 "'Therefore, you prostitute, hear the word of the LORD!
36 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you poured out your wealth and exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children's blood,
37 therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness.
38 I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring upon you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger.
39 Then I will hand you over to your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you naked and bare.
40 They will bring a mob against you, who will stone you and hack you to pieces with their swords.
41 They will burn down your houses and inflict punishment on you in the sight of many women. I will put a stop to your prostitution, and you will no longer pay your lovers.
42 Then my wrath against you will subside and my jealous anger will turn away from you; I will be calm and no longer angry.
43 "'Because you did not remember the days of your youth but enraged me with all these things, I will surely bring down on your head what you have done, declares the Sovereign LORD. Did you not add lewdness to all your other detestable practices?
44 "'Everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb about you: "Like mother, like daughter."
45 You are a true daughter of your mother, who despised her husband and her children; and you are a true sister of your sisters, who despised their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite.
46 Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom.
47 You not only walked in their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Isaiah 64)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God made it very clear that the Israelites strayed far, far away from the code that God lay down before them. Not a single person ever kept the law entirely, everyone fouled up, and as has been discussed before, God requires perfection.

Israel was God's chosen people in that they would be blessed beyond measure by Him. Yet, they turned away, and did their own thing, even taking up the practices of their pagan neighbors. Most of the prophetic books of the OT are warnings from God, telling Israel to get her act together. She never did.

CommunistWithAGun · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 5 2004, 02:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> There are "religions" that have taken exactly that stance, generally these are called cults. For Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Buddists, at least, randomly killing people would be akin to sentancing people to hell in simplified language (oviously this is logically developed differently for each religion)

[edit] i missed this
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If I were to kill a small child, chances are that child hasn't lived long enough to commit a sin worthly of landing him/her in whatever hell there might be, so I would be sending that child to heaven.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
both Christians, Jews, and Muslims (I think it's for Muslims, not quite sure) people are born with sin. So if a you belive that a being exists cabably enough to have a soul then you are sentencing that sould to hell by killing that being (this is an iffy point, people have different explinations for how this works). For buddists life is a cycle of suffering caused by attachment to the world (simplified to say the least). The cycle must be broken conciouly, thus a dead baby will simply cycle to its next life, not go to "heaven".  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I would just like to add cults aren't inherently bad, the reason they are called cults are because they do not have a certain amount of followers.

For example the mormon religion is not even a "religion" yet. It is a sect. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 11 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So the perfect creation can fail. Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Unless God created us to fail the tests. So why does he get stroppy when we fail?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God did not create robots. We are given the ability to love God as much, or as little as we want, and for that to truly be free, we must have the ability to not love him at all. Free will was given to us, and we abused it by turning away from him.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>And if a person chooses to not love God? He punishes him, and the next 4 generations of his children (Exodus 20-5). All for exercising his God-given ability of free will.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I wasn't aware that all the jews (and since we're talking mainly about the old testiment, they were the Gods chosen) rejected God. I thought that they followed all the then written laws to the best of their ability...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 11 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Not so...
<snip bible quotes>

God made it very clear that the Israelites strayed far, far away from the code that God lay down before them. Not a single person ever kept the law entirely, everyone fouled up, and as has been discussed before, God requires perfection.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I thought He created humans perfectly. So why did they mess up? Prehaps God didn't create perfection when He created humans?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 11 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Israel was God's chosen people in that they would be blessed beyond measure by Him. Yet, they turned away, and did their own thing, even taking up the practices of their pagan neighbors. Most of the prophetic books of the OT are warnings from God, telling Israel to get her act together. She never did.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
They <b>chose through their God-given free will</b> to turn away from God. So he punished them. Is that what you're getting at?

Or is God just an attention seeker who didn't create humans perfectly?

Bogglesteinsky · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 11 2004, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So, explain to me exactly why:

(1)God needed to have someone to sacrifice to redeem humanity?

(2)Why God needed someone to have that human to have done nothing wrong?
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
1) Because, as His creation, he loves us and wants us to spend eternity with him. The only way he could do that, and remain perfectly just was to have a perfect sacrifice to take our sin and be punished for it.

2) Because He had to be the perfect sacrifice. He needed to be able to stand infront of God when a Christian is getting judged, and He needed to be able to say "This man is sinless because I was sinless." If the sacrifice had sinned, He would not be able to say that, and no-one would get into heaven.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Good is not necessarily perfect, correct?

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

When you are talking about God, if something is Good, it is perfect. This is not a human standard of Good, this is a supreme, omnipotent divine standard of Good. When God says his creation is Good, it is Good by his standards, it is Perfect.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And if humans are perfect, then why is there the need for punishment in the afterlife?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because we are no longer perfect. We are nowhere near perfect.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why did Adam and Eve disobey God in the Garden of Eden?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because they chose to.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why must humans constantly fight temptation?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because sin (and death) came into the world when humanity first fell. If there was no sin, there would be no temptation.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So the perfect creation can fail. Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Unless God created us to fail the tests. So why does he get stroppy when we fail?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

The perfect creation failed when humanity chose to sin. It is all our fault. God warned what would happen if we did, and being a just God, when we did fall, He did what he said he would.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And if a person chooses to not love God? He punishes him, and the next 4 generations of his children (Exodus 20-5). All for exercising his God-given ability of free will.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God gave him free will so he could choose to love God. God warns people what will happen if they choose not to love him. It is God's right to be loved by his creation. He created you if it wasn't for him, you wouldn't be here, that at least deserves a bit of thanks.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I thought He created humans perfectly. So why did they mess up? Prehaps God didn't create perfection when He created humans?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

We messed up because we chose to ignore God. We thought we didn't need him, better off without him.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>They <b>chose through their God-given free will</b> to turn away from God. So he punished them. Is that what you're getting at?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I would like to change the emphasis on that sentence:

<b><u>They</u> <i>chose</i></b> through their God-given free will to turn away from God. So he punished them. Is that what you're getting at?

Yes. God had told them not to, they did, He punished them. You don't say a Father is unjust for punishing his son when he did something the father told him not to do you? How is it any different from God?

Bill_Door · April 2004

see next post. There were a few problems with this one.

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 11 2004, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So, explain to me exactly why:

(1)God needed to have someone to sacrifice to redeem humanity?

(2)Why God needed someone to have that human to have done nothing wrong?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
1) Because, as His creation, he loves us and wants us to spend eternity with him. The only way he could do that, and remain perfectly just was to have a perfect sacrifice to take our sin and be punished for it.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So he loves us enough to, instead of punishing the guilty, to punish one innocent?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>2) Because He had to be the perfect sacrifice. He needed to be able to stand infront of God when a Christian is getting judged, and He needed to be able to say "This man is sinless because I was sinless." If the sacrifice had sinned, He would not be able to say that, and no-one would get into heaven.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>No-one? So He needed to punish an innocent to save everyone (including any faithful) from Himself?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Good is not necessarily perfect, correct?

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

When you are talking about God, if something is Good, it is perfect. This is not a human standard of Good, this is a supreme, omnipotent divine standard of Good. When God says his creation is Good, it is Good by his standards, it is Perfect.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Why the difference? Why not just use perfect?
And also that definition God created us to be mean. To be petty. To be quarrelsome. To be greedy. To be lustful. Since these are characteristics that humans have shown time after time.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And if humans are perfect, then why is there the need for punishment in the afterlife?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because we are no longer perfect. We are nowhere near perfect.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>We were created perfect though. So why the failure? Why has 'His perfect creation' stopped being perfect?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why did Adam and Eve disobey God in the Garden of Eden?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Because they chose to.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Why did they choose to? Enlighten me.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why must humans constantly fight temptation?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because sin (and death) came into the world when humanity first fell. If there was no sin, there would be no temptation.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So God is punishing the as then unborn children of Adam and Eve as well as them? And this is perfectly just?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So the perfect creation can fail. Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Unless God created us to fail the tests. So why does he get stroppy when we fail?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

The perfect creation failed when humanity chose to sin. It is all our fault. God warned what would happen if we did, and being a just God, when we did fall, He did what he said he would.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So all the Israelites fell into sin at the same time? ALL turned away from him at the same time? OR did some of them choose, through their God-Given free will to do their best to worship God and love Him to their utmost and still get punished?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And if a person chooses to not love God? He punishes him, and the next 4 generations of his children (Exodus 20-5). All for exercising his God-given ability of free will.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God gave him free will so he could choose to love God. God warns people what will happen if they choose not to love him. It is God's right to be loved by his creation. He created you if it wasn't for him, you wouldn't be here, that at least deserves a bit of thanks.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So we all should love the person who doomed us to a life of temptation and pain and death, just because He created us? And even if the only evidence is a self-contradictory, repeatedly translated text?
(Three versions of the commandments, two different versions of creation.)

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I thought He created humans perfectly. So why did they mess up? Prehaps God didn't create perfection when He created humans?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

We messed up because we chose to ignore God. We thought we didn't need him, better off without him.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Why did they choose to ignore God? Did they find Him to be too fickle?

Eg: First demanding Abraham sacrifice his son, and when Abraham is ready to He says stop.

Eg:Giving two non-identical sets of commandments and saying that they are the same.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 20:2 to 20:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ****, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 34:12 to 34:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. But the firstling of an **** thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.
Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>They <b>chose through their God-given free wil</b>l to turn away from God. So he punished them. Is that what you're getting at?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I would like to change the emphasis on that sentence:

<u>They</u> <b>chose</b> through their God-given free will to turn away from God. So he punished them. Is that what you're getting at?

Yes. God had told them not to, they did, He punished them. You don't say a Father is unjust for punishing his son when he did something the father told him not to do you? How is it any different from God?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>If the father beats the son almost to death for a minor infraction, then yes.
If the father then punishes his son's family as well as the son, then yes.
Either of those are unjust, correct?
If the failing could have been prevented by a lesser punishment then it is a failing of the educator.

Dread · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <b><u>They</u> <i>chose</i></b> through their God-given free will to turn away from God. So he punished them. Is that what you're getting at?

Yes. God had told them not to, they did, He punished them. You don't say a Father is unjust for punishing his son when he did something the father told him not to do you? How is it any different from God?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
So God says: "You have free will, do what you want, just don't do anything I don't tell you to."
So the two options given to human by his free will are:
1) Do what God wants you to do.
2) Do what you want and God punishes you.

Doesn't sound like we are given a lot of options. Sure, we have free will, but we can't really use it, or if we do, God punishes us. What's the point in that?

Other thing that came to my mind is, how a perfect being can become unperfect? That's not possible. A perfect being, just can't become unperfect, or if he can, he hasn't been perfect in the first place. So I guess by giving A&E free will, he made them unperfect.

See, if A&E were perfect and they became unperfect, that means God, who is perfect himself, can become unperfect too.

The third thing that I thought is, howcome we are being punished for A&Es mistakes? If that's right in your mind, I guess we should start punishing criminals children too: "Sorry little Timmy, but we have to lock you up because your dad stole an apple."

Yeah, the little punk had it coming.

Bogglesteinsky · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 12 2004, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So he loves us enough to, instead of punishing the guilty, to punish one innocent?
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The one innocent loves the guilty enough to be punished in thier place. Not too sure what you are getting at with this one.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>No-one? So He needed to punish an innocent to save everyone (including any faithful) from Himself?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Basically, yes. Being a Holy God, he cannot stand any evil in his presence, so Jesus volunteered to take all the evil on his shoulders and be punished for it, so those who believe can be made righteous.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why the difference? Why not just use perfect?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

There is no difference.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
And also that definition God created us to be mean. To be petty. To be quarrelsome. To be greedy. To be lustful. Since these are characteristics that humans have shown time after time.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God created us to be able to <b>choose</b> to be mean or be nice, to be petty or generous, to be quarrelsome or peace makers.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We were created perfect though. So why the failure? Why has 'His perfect creation' stopped being perfect?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because we chose to.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why did they choose to? Enlighten me.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You know, that is the very question I would ask them myself. How am I supposed to know? I am not a mind reader.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So God is punishing the as then unborn children of Adam and Eve as well as them? And this is perfectly just?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God is carrying out his judgement on humanity as it was humanity who sinned.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So all the Israelites fell into sin at the same time? ALL turned away from him at the same time? OR did some of them choose, through their God-Given free will to do their best to worship God and love Him to their utmost and still get punished?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Israel turned away, Israel was punished. There are lots who stayed faithful, all the prophets, King David. They were not punished because they didn't disobey (much).

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So we all should love the person who doomed us to a life of temptation and pain and death, just because He created us?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Yes. What is more, we should be thankful that he hasn't give up on us and started another, better species on another planet in a far corner of the universe, because if I was God, that is what I would do.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And even if the only evidence is a self-contradictory, repeatedly translated text?
(Three versions of the commandments, two different versions of creation.)</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Where are these 2 versions of creation? I am interested. The bible has not been "repeatedly translated" Pretty much all English versions are translated from the original Greek/Hebrew. Thats 1 translation. One.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why did they choose to ignore God? Did they find Him to be too fickle?

Eg: First demanding Abraham sacrifice his son, and when Abraham is ready to He says stop.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

He was testing Abraham's loyalty to God. OK, so God knew the outcome, but Abraham didn't. He never questioned God. The test was more for Abraham than God. He learnt to trust God, do whatever God commanded no matter how stupid it sounds.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Eg:Giving two non-identical sets of commandments and saying that they are the same.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 20:2 to 20:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><snip></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 34:12 to 34:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><snip></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

In no place do those contradict each other. Infact, in places they actually repeat each other. What is wrong with having more than 1 set of cammandments? Countries have more than 1 set of laws don't they?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If the father beats the son almost to death for a minor infraction, then yes.
If the father then punishes his son's family as well as the son, then yes.
Either of those are unjust, correct?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I'm sorry, when did we start going to extremes? God does not "beat us to death" for a "minor infraction". It's a major infraction.

God doesn't judge us because of the sins of our fathers, we are judged for our own actions. He is not going to be sitting there on judgement day saying "Your father stole a candy bar from the sweet shop, you are sentenced to eternal damnnation." He says "you chose to ignore me, you lived your life without me despite all I had asked, you are filthy with sin, I cannot have you in my presence, so I send you to a place I am not."

If the son is no longer worthy to be called a son, yet the father still forgives him if he is sorry, is that not love?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If the failing could have been prevented by a lesser punishment then it is a failing of the educator.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

And if it couldn't?

------Dread------

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So God says: "You have free will, do what you want, just don't do anything I don't tell you to."
So the two options given to human by his free will are:
1) Do what God wants you to do.
2) Do what you want and God punishes you.

Doesn't sound like we are given a lot of options. Sure, we have free will, but we can't really use it, or if we do, God punishes us. What's the point in that?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

We have free will so we can choose to love him. He wants us to want to love him. If we want to love him, and we do what we want, He isn't going to punish us.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Other thing that came to my mind is, how a perfect being can become unperfect? That's not possible. A perfect being, just can't become unperfect, or if he can, he hasn't been perfect in the first place. So I guess by giving A&E free will, he made them unperfect.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Why isn't it possible? Clearly it is. It happened didnt it? If the perfect chose to become unperfect, it would.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>See, if A&E were perfect and they became unperfect, that means God, who is perfect himself, can become unperfect too.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

No. Humans can choose to do good or evil. God is holy. the thought of doing evil never ever crosses his brain. If it did, he would no longer be God.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The third thing that I thought is, howcome we are being punished for A&Es mistakes? If that's right in your mind, I guess we should start punishing criminals children too: "Sorry little Timmy, but we have to lock you up because your dad stole an apple."

Yeah, the little punk had it coming.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

See above, but, just for you, I will say it again.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God doesn't judge us because of the sins of our fathers, we are judged for our own actions. He is not going to be sitting there on judgement day saying "Your father stole a candy bar from the sweet shop, you are sentenced to eternal damnnation." He says "you chose to ignore me, you lived your life without me despite all I had asked, you are filthy with sin, I cannot have you in my presence, so I send you to a place I am not."</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Dread · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 06:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Other thing that came to my mind is, how a perfect being can become unperfect? That's not possible. A perfect being, just can't become unperfect, or if he can, he hasn't been perfect in the first place. So I guess by giving A&E free will, he made them unperfect.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Why isn't it possible? Clearly it is. It happened didnt it? If the perfect chose to become unperfect, it would.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Circular logic pwns me. So it can happen because it happened, and it happened because it can happen? Let's elaborate this a wee bit more:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>See, if A&E were perfect and they became unperfect, that means God, who is perfect himself, can become unperfect too.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

No. Humans can choose to do good or evil. God is holy. the thought of doing evil never ever crosses his brain. If it did, he would no longer be God.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

A perfect being shouldn't be able to do evil. That's against the concept of 'perfectness'. If the thought crossed Gods minds, he would no longer be <b>perfect</b>. Just like the thought crossed humans mind, making him unperfect(or is it imperfect?). So if human would be perfect, the thought could never cross his mind, because obviously imperfect creature couldn't sin, now could it? And if the definition of perfect = über-great but can still sin, then I guess God can sin too, because he's perfect as well.

So either humans were never perfect(as in perfect that can not do nothing wrong and is über-great) or then God can sin as well as humans. I guess it's up to the definition of perfect, but I always thought perfect being can't do anything wrong. If he can, even with the aid of his free will, that makes him inherently imperfect.

It seems that there can't be a creature who has free will and is still perfect. If you have free will, you are bound to have thoughts that differ from the ideology of your maker and hence, you are not perfect. Or actually, a perfect creature even with free will, couldn't be able to think imperfect thoughts or make imperfect choices. Those would be way above his grasp. He wouldn't know of murder or stealing, of envy or jelousy, of disobedience or lack of faith. He couldn't make any choices between "should I eat an apple or an orange?", as he would always choose perfectly. Hence: it is not possible to have a perfect creature with a free will. Perfect creature would have to be an excact replica of his creator, as nothing else could be perfect in the eyes of god. There is only one kind of perfect, not many ways to be perfect, and humans did not have the same powers as God. So they were NOT perfect. Maybe perfect meant a different thing when the Bible was written. Interpretting it against modern standards, A&E never couldn't have been perfect, as God is only perfect being, and A&E weren't even close.

I'm starting to repeat myself, but I hope thee forgive me.

PS. I have no idea why I climbed aboard this SS Religious topic. These are always deemed to sink, but I guess it's fun to debate every now and then over something pointless <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Bogglesteinsky · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Apr 12 2004, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Circular logic pwns me. So it can happen because it happened, and it happened because it can happen? Let's elaborate this a wee bit more:
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
That isnt actually a circular argument. "It can happen because it did happen". That is just a logical step from an event taking place to the conclusion that, because the event took place, it must be possible. "It happened because it can happen" is illogical. In no way does the possibility of an event effect why the event happens.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A perfect being shouldn't be able to do evil. That's against the concept of 'perfectness'. If the thought crossed Gods minds, he would no longer be <b>perfect</b>. Just like the thought crossed humans mind, making him unperfect(or is it imperfect?). So if human would be perfect, the thought could never cross his mind, because obviously imperfect creature couldn't sin, now could it? And if the definition of perfect = über-great but can still sin, then I guess God can sin too, because he's perfect as well.

So either humans were never perfect(as in perfect that can not do nothing wrong and is über-great) or then God can sin as well as humans. I guess it's up to the definition of perfect, but I always thought perfect being can't do anything wrong. If he can, even with the aid of his free will, that makes him inherently imperfect.

It seems that there can't be a creature who has free will and is still perfect. If you have free will, you are bound to have thoughts that differ from the ideology of your maker and hence, you are not perfect. Or actually, a perfect creature even with free will, couldn't be able to think imperfect thoughts or make imperfect choices. Those would be way above his grasp. He wouldn't know of murder or stealing, of envy or jelousy, of disobedience or lack of faith. He couldn't make any choices between "should I eat an apple or an orange?", as he would always choose perfectly. Hence: it is not possible to have a perfect creature with a free will. Perfect creature would have to be an excact replica of his creator, as nothing else could be perfect in the eyes of god. There is only one kind of perfect, not many ways to be perfect, and humans did not have the same powers as God. So they were NOT perfect. Maybe perfect meant a different thing when the Bible was written. Interpretting it against modern standards, A&E never couldn't have been perfect, as God is only perfect being, and A&E weren't even close.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perfect' target='_blank'>Dictionary</a>.com:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Being without defect or blemish</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

It does not say that perfect beings do not have the ability to sin, it just says that they don't sin. The angels are perfect, yet that have the ability to sin. Jesus was perfect, yet he had the ability to sin. Humans were prefect, yet they had the ability to sin, and they did.

Frosty · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yet religious people aren't drowning their children after birth to ensure them a good seat in heaven, so what am I missing?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I always thought of it as murder is a sin, and though you would be saving said child, you would be damning yourself. And the realy religouse people realy dont want to be damned, they want to meat with the G-Man. (He's a cool guy, odd acent though). So their choice is to ensure one goes to heaven and one goes to hell, or let each person take there own chances to earn said spot in the afterlife on their own. And thats without taking purgatory or limbo into consideration.

Oh and on the whole A&E perfection thing there, they were never perfect, they were merely inocent. there is a difference.

And on good and evil and good, i think the book "Good Omens" sums it up best
(oh and im quoting from memory, so its more a paraphrase than a quote, if someone has the book and can look it up and corect it please do)
The universe is not some poker game between heaven and hell, its more like an infalable game of solitare. (the player of course being god)

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 12 2004, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So he loves us enough to, instead of punishing the guilty, to punish one innocent?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
The one innocent loves the guilty enough to be punished in thier place. Not too sure what you are getting at with this one.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>No-one? So He needed to punish an innocent to save everyone (including any faithful) from Himself?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Basically, yes. Being a Holy God, he cannot stand any evil in his presence, so Jesus volunteered to take all the evil on his shoulders and be punished for it, so those who believe can be made righteous.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
If God is Perfectly Just, then why do the innocents get punished with the gulity and why the gulity can escape their punishment?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why the difference? Why not just use perfect?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

There is no difference.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So you are adding a new definition to good when used with referance to God's work? Why? Why not accept the generally used one; especally given humanities failings?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
And also that definition God created us to be mean. To be petty. To be quarrelsome. To be greedy. To be lustful. Since these are characteristics that humans have shown time after time.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>God created us to be able to <b>choose</b> to be mean or be nice, to be petty or generous, to be quarrelsome or peace makers.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>And made us so that we seem to prefer to be lazy? to be lustful?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We were created perfect though. So why the failure? Why has 'His perfect creation' stopped being perfect?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Because we chose to.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why did they choose to? Enlighten me.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>You know, that is the very question I would ask them myself. How am I supposed to know? I am not a mind reader.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Could it be that God's 'perfect' creation is less than perfect? Or that we are not created by God?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So God is punishing the as then unborn children of Adam and Eve as well as them? And this is perfectly just?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>God is carrying out his judgement on humanity as it was humanity who sinned.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Wait. Two individuals broke his commandments. He condems the rest of humanity, as yet unborn, to the misery. If thats perfect justice, I for one prefer our own flawed system.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If the failing could have been prevented by a lesser punishment then it is a failing of the educator.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>And if it couldn't?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So all the Israelites fell into sin at the same time? ALL turned away from him at the same time? OR did some of them choose, through their God-Given free will to do their best to worship God and love Him to their utmost and still get punished?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Israel turned away, Israel was punished. There are lots who stayed faithful, all the prophets, King David. They were not punished because they didn't disobey (much).</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>And therein is God failing. By not stepping in and lightly discipining the ones whose discipline wavered, God allowed the rest to slide into the mess they got into. He failed to uphold discipline.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So we all should love the person who doomed us to a life of temptation and pain and death, just because He created us?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Yes. What is more, we should be thankful that he hasn't give up on us and started another, better species on another planet in a far corner of the universe, because if I was God, that is what I would do.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Where are these 2 versions of creation? I am interested.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Genisis 1:20 and Genisis 2:4 have different orders to the creation story. Which is more correct?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The bible has not been "repeatedly translated" Pretty much all English versions are translated from the original Greek/Hebrew. Thats 1 translation. One.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I thought there was another translation (Ancient Hebrew -> Latin -> English). It appears not.
I happen to think that there should be a more modern translation of the original text, as it exists. Language evolves.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Eg: First demanding Abraham sacrifice his son, and when Abraham is ready to He says stop.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

He was testing Abraham's loyalty to God. OK, so God knew the outcome, but Abraham didn't. He never questioned God. The test was more for Abraham than God. He learnt to trust God, do whatever God commanded no matter how stupid it sounds.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>If He wants mindlessly loyal followers, then why give them the ability to refuse his commands?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Eg:Giving two non-identical sets of commandments and saying that they are the same.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 20:2 to 20:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><snip></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 34:12 to 34:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><snip></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

In no place do those contradict each other. Infact, in places they actually repeat each other. What is wrong with having more than 1 set of cammandments? Countries have more than 1 set of laws don't they?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 34:1)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And the Lord said unto Moses,
Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>God said they are identical. They aren't.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God doesn't judge us because of the sins of our fathers, we are judged for our own actions.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Bull. Reread Exodus 20:5

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 20:5)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy GOD am a jealous God, [u]visiting the inequities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth <i>generation</i> of them that hate me</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Do you agree that that is punishing the children for the actions of the father?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So God says: "You have free will, do what you want, just don't do anything I don't tell you to."
So the two options given to human by his free will are:
1) Do what God wants you to do.
2) Do what you want and God punishes you.

Doesn't sound like we are given a lot of options. Sure, we have free will, but we can't really use it, or if we do, God punishes us. What's the point in that?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

We have free will so we can choose to love him. He wants us to want to love him. If we want to love him, and we do what we want, He isn't going to punish us.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I call those tactics bully tactics. Well, i suppose that is something to be expected; God says in the bible that his other name is Jealous... (Exodus 34:14)

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> That isnt actually a circular argument. "It can happen because it did happen". That is just a logical step from an event taking place to the conclusion that, because the event took place, it must be possible. "It happened because it can happen" is illogical. In no way does the possibility of an event effect why the event happens.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
<a href='http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_beggingquestion.htm' target='_blank'>Uhmm...</a> <a href='http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html' target='_blank'>really?</a>

Bogglesteinsky · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 12 2004, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If God is Perfectly Just, then why do the innocents get punished with the gulity and why the gulity can escape their punishment?

 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
What do you mean by innocent? You do realise that no-one is innocent in God's eyes? (unless they have not had a chance to sin, such as babies)

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So you are adding a new definition to good when used with referance to God's work? Why? Why not accept the generally used one; especally given humanities failings?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Becuase we are talking about God, not humanity. God is black and white. There are no grey areas. Something is either wholly good or wholly bad. Its called absolutism. If God says something is good, he is saying he thinks it is good. If God thinks something is good, that menas it is perfect. I don't know why the translators chose good instead of perfect, why dont you ask them instead of me.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And made us so that we seem to prefer to be lazy? to be lustful?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You can chose to be lazy or hardworking. You cannot blame that on God. Yes, it may seem that we prefer to be lazy, but that is simply lack of thought on our part. "Hard work pays off for the future. Laziness pays off for now."

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Could it be that God's 'perfect' creation is less than perfect? Or that we are not created by God?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Could well be. You are just going to have to answer that question for yourself.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Wait. Two individuals broke his commandments. He condems the rest of humanity, as yet unborn, to the misery. If thats perfect justice, I for one prefer our own flawed system.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Thats fine by me.

See, this is the way I see it.

God creates humans to have a perfect relationship with him. He loves them, he poured his own breath into them, they aare the greatest of all his creations, yet they turn thier back on him. They think they don't need him, they think that they are better than him. Now God is upset. His creation has disowned him. He could wipe them out and start again, but he doesn't. He loves them too much. Jesus loves them as well, so he goes and lives a life, then be wrongly accused and crucified. The sin and punishment for the human race is placed on his shoulders and, in two days, he sufferes a million eternities of God's wrath in hell. For these stupid, worthless humans.

Somehow, I don't think that a judge in our flawed system would ever consider sacrificing his son to the death penalty in the place of a worthless criminal.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And therein is God failing. By not stepping in and lightly discipining the ones whose discipline wavered, God allowed the rest to slide into the mess they got into. He failed to uphold discipline.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I actually found that bit quite funny. There I was, thinking that God was perfect and infallable, and, suddenly, I see that there was a better way, pointed out to me by a inperfect, fallable forumite. Next time I see him, I will make sure I pass your message on.

Seriously. Its all quite simple. Step one: God tells person not to do something. Step 2: Person does certain 'something'. Step 3: God punishes person for disobeying. Where in that is your problem?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So we all should love the person who doomed us to a life of temptation and pain and death, just because He created us?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Yes. What is more, we should be thankful that he hasn't give up on us and started another, better species on another planet in a far corner of the universe, because if I was God, that is what I would do.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Where are these 2 versions of creation? I am interested.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Genisis 1:20 and Genisis 2:4 have different orders to the creation story. Which is more correct?

Genesis 1:20 (GNB)</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Then God commanded, "Let the water be filled with many kinds of living beings, and let the air be filled with birds."</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Genesis 2:4 (GNB) </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And that is how the universe was created. When the Lord God made the universe...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Not quite sure what you are getting at there.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I thought there was another translation (Ancient Hebrew -> Latin -> English). It appears not.
I happen to think that there should be a more modern translation of the original text, as it exists. Language evolves.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

There are plenty of mordern language translations of the original texts. Only a few still use the KJV

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If He wants mindlessly loyal followers, then why give them the ability to refuse his commands?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because he doesn't want mindlessly loyal follwers

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God said they are identical. They aren't.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I will be honest with you. You got me there. I will get back to you on that one

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bull. Reread Exodus 20:5

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 20:5)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy GOD am a jealous God, [u]visiting the inequities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth <i>generation</i> of them that hate me</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Do you agree that that is punishing the children for the actions of the father?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

No denying it. Fortunately, we are in the era of the New Testament, not the Old. In the new testament, People are judged according to their own actions.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I call those tactics bully tactics.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I don't </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Well, i suppose that is something to be expected; God says in the bible that his other name is Jealous... (Exodus 34:14)</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Exodus 34:14 (GNB) (That's one of those mordern language translations)</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"Do not worship any other god, because I, the Lord, tolerate no rivals."</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Bogglesteinsky · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Uhmm...really?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Yes. If you are going to use the bible to attack, I can use it for defence. It says it in the Bible. Humans fell. The perfect creation became imperfect. The conclusion is backed up by The Bible.

Legionnaired · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you agree that that is punishing the children for the actions of the father?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Even so, He's God. If you don't like His idea of justice, that's one thing, but to argue that He cannot even exist because you don't like his idea of justice is something else entirely.

In order for you to state that God is unjust, you first have to, abritrarily, state that your idea of justice is correct, and that your idea of compassion is the one that everyone should adhere to. If God is who the Bible says he is, then He is the one who makes the rules, not you, not even all of mankind, and what He says goes.

Dread · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 02:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Uhmm...really? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yes. If you are going to use the bible to attack, I can use it for defence. It says it in the Bible. Humans fell. The perfect creation became imperfect. The conclusion is backed up by The Bible.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
But I was trying to imply that mayhaps Bible has something wrong. You can't just say "It has to be true because it's in the Bible."

I'd say having impure/wrong thoughts is a major defect. That means A&E became imperfect at the moment either of them even 'thought' about doing wrong. Would that be...2 seconds after Adam landed in paradise? Also I remember Eve being really lazy and stuff, doesn't that mean she's not perfect?

But now we're going in to semantics, so I won't try to further convince you as it's clearly futile <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 12 2004, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If God is Perfectly Just, then why do the innocents get punished with the gulity and why the gulity can escape their punishment? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>What do you mean by innocent? You do realise that no-one is innocent in God's eyes? (unless they have not had a chance to sin, such as babies)</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So the unborn have had the chance to sin? Yeah. Right. Whatever.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So you are adding a new definition to good when used with referance to God's work? Why? Why not accept the generally used one; especally given humanities failings?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Becuase we are talking about God, not humanity. God is black and white. There are no grey areas. Something is either wholly good or wholly bad. Its called absolutism. If God says something is good, he is saying he thinks it is good. If God thinks something is good, that menas it is perfect. I don't know why the translators chose good instead of perfect, why dont you ask them instead of me.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>You're the one trying to make out that God is perfect, why don't you find out?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And made us so that we seem to prefer to be lazy? to be lustful?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>You can chose to be lazy or hardworking. You cannot blame that on God. Yes, it may seem that we prefer to be lazy, but that is simply lack of thought on our part. "Hard work pays off for the future. Laziness pays off for now."</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>You've addressed the laziness, so why not the lust? Why do we prefer to be lustful?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Could it be that God's 'perfect' creation is less than perfect? Or that we are not created by God?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Could well be. You are just going to have to answer that question for yourself.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>As there is alot of evidence backing up the second, why should we believe in God? After all, He didn't create us, so what else didn't He create? Does He even exist?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Wait. Two individuals broke his commandments. He condems the rest of humanity, as yet unborn, to the misery. If thats perfect justice, I for one prefer our own flawed system.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Thats fine by me.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Not very just though, is it?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God creates humans to have a perfect relationship with him. He loves them, he poured his own breath into them, they are the greatest of all his creations, yet they turn thier back on him. They think they don't need him, they think that they are better than him.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Re-reading Genisis 3, Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil until they were lead astray and broke Gods commmandment. They knew hardly anything until they broke Gods commandment.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Now God is upset. His creation has disowned him. He could wipe them out and start again, but he doesn't. He loves them too much.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>God threw them out. And still they still worship Him. (Genisis 4)

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Jesus loves them as well, so he goes and lives a life, then be wrongly accused and crucified. The sin and punishment for the human race is placed on his shoulders and, in two days, he sufferes a million eternities of God's wrath in hell. For these stupid, worthless humans.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Thats great. But that doesn't change that God is not perfectly just. If anything it provides more evidence of injustices

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Somehow, I don't think that a judge in our flawed system would ever consider sacrificing his son to the death penalty in the place of a worthless criminal.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I should hope so. Allowing another to accept the punishment of a criminal removes the point of punishment; it is a warning and a detterant.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And therein is God failing. By not stepping in and lightly discipining the ones whose discipline wavered, God allowed the rest to slide into the mess they got into. He failed to uphold discipline.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I actually found that bit quite funny. There I was, thinking that God was perfect and infallable, and, suddenly, I see that there was a better way, pointed out to me by a inperfect, fallable forumite. Next time I see him, I will make sure I pass your message on.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>It is stated, "God is infallible"
I find somewhere where God fails.
There is a contradiction
Therefore "God is infallible" is false

That's disproof by contradiction.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Seriously. Its all quite simple. Step one: God tells person not to do something. Step 2: Person does certain 'something'. Step 3: God punishes person for disobeying. Where in that is your problem?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>The way that this happened:
1)God set out the laws
2)Person broke a minor rule
3)God fails to punish them
4)They go on to break a major rule
5)God gets really annoyed and punishes them greatly
That better fits the example you provided.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So we all should love the person who doomed us to a life of temptation and pain and death, just because He created us?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Yes. What is more, we should be thankful that he hasn't give up on us and started another, better species on another planet in a far corner of the universe, because if I was God, that is what I would do.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I for one wonder if we wouldn't be better off without God.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 12 2004, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Where are these 2 versions of creation? I am interested.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Try Genisis 1:2 to Genisis 2:3 and Genisis 2:4 to Genisis 2:15

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I thought there was another translation (Ancient Hebrew -> Latin -> English). It appears not.
I happen to think that there should be a more modern translation of the original text, as it exists. Language evolves.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>There are plenty of mordern language translations of the original texts. Only a few still use the KJV</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Ok. I don't exactly keep up with the latest version used.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If He wants mindlessly loyal followers, then why give them the ability to refuse his commands?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Because he doesn't want mindlessly loyal follwers</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>He liked Adam and Eve best when they were too stupid to even know they were naked...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God said they are identical. They aren't.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I will be honest with you. You got me there. I will get back to you on that one</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Might God be fallible?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bull. Reread Exodus 20:5</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 20:5)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy GOD am a jealous God, [u]visiting the inequities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth <i>generation</i> of them that hate me</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Do you agree that that is punishing the children for the actions of the father?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>No denying it. Fortunately, we are in the era of the New Testament, not the Old. In the new testament, People are judged according to their own actions.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>But... That means Jesus changed God's mind... Does that mean that God is fallible?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I call those tactics bully tactics.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I don't</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Compare and contrast:
Bully: Do as I say or I will hurt you.
God: Do as I say or I will send you to hell for an eternity of excruciating pain.

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 13 2004, 01:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you agree that that is punishing the children for the actions of the father?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Even so, He's God. If you don't like His idea of justice, that's one thing, but to argue that He cannot even exist because you don't like his idea of justice is something else entirely.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Bah. You nitpick a small part of my post and just dismiss the rest. That part is attacking the idea that God is perfectly just, not wether or not He exists

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 13 2004, 01:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In order for you to state that God is unjust, you first have to, abritrarily, state that your idea of justice is correct, and that your idea of compassion is the one that everyone should adhere to. If God is who the Bible says he is, then He is the one who makes the rules, not you, not even all of mankind, and what He says goes.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Oh, so you think we should use what could be described as "a book of ancient tribal myths" to determine all our laws?
And if <i>you</i> want to change my mind on that, take the test set out in Mark 16:18 (KJV). After all, if the bible is the truth you will be able to survive drinking poison

Bogglesteinsky · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Apr 13 2004, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> But I was trying to imply that mayhaps Bible has something wrong. You can't just say "It has to be true because it's in the Bible."

I'd say having impure/wrong thoughts is a major defect. That means A&E became imperfect at the moment either of them even 'thought' about doing wrong. Would that be...2 seconds after Adam landed in paradise? Also I remember Eve being really lazy and stuff, doesn't that mean she's not perfect?

But now we're going in to semantics, so I won't try to further convince you as it's clearly futile <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
We are not told the time period. They may have been there for thousands of years before they did something wrong.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
So the unborn have had the chance to sin? Yeah. Right. Whatever.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

When did I ever say that? I said "unless they have not had a chance to sin, such as babies." Now, if you want to be annoying, immature and nitpicky, then, yes, "babies" does not include the unborn, as technically, they are fetuses or zygotes. However, if you want to be mature and sensible, you will realsie that fetuses are just babies who haven't been born yet. I alos used the trem "such as" to show that the group of humans that haven't had a chnace to sin are like babies. This includes (but is not limited to) Toddlers, babies, fetuses and zygotes.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You're the one trying to make out that God is perfect, why don't you find out?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because you are the one that is interested in it, not me.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You've addressed the laziness, so why not the lust? Why do we prefer to be lustful?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Because humans have let sex rules thier lives. Lust is basically sex without the resposibilities of a relationship, and, with humans being lazy, we don't like responsibilities either.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As there is alot of evidence backing up the second, why should we believe in God? After all, He didn't create us, so what else didn't He create? Does He even exist?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I would be interested to know what makes you so sure to be able to say confidently "He didn't create us." The only other thing we have going to creation is a flawed theory of evolution.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Not very just though, is it?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

If you want to accept our flawed justice system, I won't stop you.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Re-reading Genisis 3, Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil until they were lead astray and broke Gods commmandment. They knew hardly anything until they broke Gods commandment.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Not sure what you are getting at there.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
God threw them out. And still they still worship Him. (Genisis 4)</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

His reasons for throwing them out were prefectly justified, and he was perfectly within his rights to do so.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thats great. But that doesn't change that God is not perfectly just. If anything it provides more evidence of injustices</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

How?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I should hope so. Allowing another to accept the punishment of a criminal removes the point of punishment; it is a warning and a detterant.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Since when was hell a punishment or a detterant?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It is stated, "God is infallible"
I find somewhere where God fails.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Yes, and thats the bit I found funny. A fallable human thinking he knows better than God. Don't worry, you are not alone. There aer plenty of other people who think they know better.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The way that this happened:
1)God set out the laws
2)Person broke a minor rule
3)God fails to punish them
4)They go on to break a major rule
5)God gets really annoyed and punishes them greatly
That better fits the example you provided.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

So you expect God to be like a nanny, watching over every single person, slapping thier wrist every time he/she does something wrong? Do you realise that you wouldn't have a wrist to slap if that happend. It would have been slapped off.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I for one wonder if we wouldn't be better off without God.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well, are you? You are without God, tell me, is it better?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Try Genisis 1:2 to Genisis 2:3 and Genisis 2:4 to Genisis 2:15</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I dont see any difference.

Genesis 1:2 - 2:3:

God creates the universe. The earth is just a desolate planet covered with water.
Day 1: God adds light, separate light from darkness and calls them day and night.
Day 2: God separate the water with the sky, clouds above the earth and water on it.
Day 3: God collects the water into one place and land appears. God lets the earth produce plants.
Day 4: God add the sun, moon and stars.
Day 5: God creates sea life and birds.
Day 6: God creates animals. God makes humans
Day 7: God rests.

Genesis 2:4 - 2:15

God makes Man and plants the garden of Eden. There is a stream there that divided into 4 rivers which flows around countries. God give Man laws to follow and tells him to guard the garden.

Those two accounts do not contradict each other whatsoever. One is just a more detailed account of a part of creation

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>He liked Adam and Eve best when they were too stupid to even know they were naked...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

He liked Adam and Eve best when they were not bothered about things like clothes, thier whole intent was just to love God.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But... That means Jesus changed God's mind... Does that mean that God is fallible?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

No it doesn't. God had it all planned out. He was just waiting for the right time.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Compare and contrast:
Bully: Do as I say or I will hurt you.
God: Do as I say or I will send you to hell for an eternity of excruciating pain. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

The ony difference is, God has the right to send you to hell, the Bully doesn't have the right to beat you up. If you are going to insist of using the phrase "bully tactics" I would add that they "bully tactics" are perfectly justified.

You dont call a father a bully for punishing his son do you? "Go to bed now or else you will get a smack" isn't being a bully, it is asking for the obediance and respect deserved.

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
So the unborn have had the chance to sin? Yeah. Right. Whatever.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>When did I ever say that? I said "unless they have not had a chance to sin, such as babies." Now, if you want to be annoying, immature and nitpicky, then, yes, "babies" does not include the unborn, as technically, they are fetuses or zygotes. However, if you want to be mature and sensible, you will realsie that fetuses are just babies who haven't been born yet. I alos used the trem "such as" to show that the group of humans that haven't had a chnace to sin are like babies. This includes (but is not limited to) Toddlers, babies, fetuses and zygotes.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Then why does God threaten to punish to the third and fourth generation in the Old testement Even though the forth generation was probably not conseived when the fater wronged? Why does he totally destroy Sodom, including all the children?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You're the one trying to make out that God is perfect, why don't you find out?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Because you are the one that is interested in it, not me.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Except you are the one trying to prove that good=perfect when used by God. The burden of proof is on you.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You've addressed the laziness, so why not the lust? Why do we prefer to be lustful?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Because humans have let sex rules thier lives. Lust is basically sex without the resposibilities of a relationship, and, with humans being lazy, we don't like responsibilities either.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Why have humans lets sex rule thier lives? Prehaps due to an inbuilt tendancy towards sex?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As there is alot of evidence backing up the second, why should we believe in God? After all, He didn't create us, so what else didn't He create? Does He even exist?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I would be interested to know what makes you so sure to be able to say confidently "He didn't create us." The only other thing we have going to creation is a flawed theory of evolution.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Oh, come on. There are no other theories submitted for peer reviewed journals and you've got a better answer? Then go ahead! Make up a theory that fits the facts given. Submit it to Nature or another peer-review journal!

Until then, evolution is the best and pretty much only model we have.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Not very just though, is it?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>If you want to accept our flawed justice system, I won't stop you.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Rather that than God's even more flawed system. At least our flawed system attempts to only punish the guilty party.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God creates humans to have a perfect relationship with him. He loves them, he poured his own breath into them, they are the greatest of all his creations, yet they turn thier back on him. They think they don't need him, they think that they are better than him.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Re-reading Genisis 3, Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil until they were lead astray and broke Gods commmandment. They knew hardly anything until they broke Gods commandment.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Not sure what you are getting at there.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Not alot. Just pointing out the contradictions between your thoughts and the bible <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Now God is upset. His creation has disowned him. He could wipe them out and start again, but he doesn't. He loves them too much.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>God threw them out. And still they still worship Him. (Genisis 4)</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>His reasons for throwing them out were prefectly justified, and he was perfectly within his rights to do so.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So? I was just pointing out the contradiction between your thoughts and the bible.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Jesus loves them as well, so he goes and lives a life, then be wrongly accused and crucified. The sin and punishment for the human race is placed on his shoulders and, in two days, he sufferes a million eternities of God's wrath in hell. For these stupid, worthless humans.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Thats great. But that doesn't change that God is not perfectly just. If anything it provides more evidence of injustices</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>How?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>God lets off all the sinners since Jesus took their place. Thus rendering any sort of disciplinary benifit null and void.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Somehow, I don't think that a judge in our flawed system would ever consider sacrificing his son to the death penalty in the place of a worthless criminal.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I should hope so. Allowing another to accept the punishment of a criminal removes the point of punishment; it is a warning and a detterant.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Since when was hell a punishment or a detterant?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>God seems to use it as one.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It is stated, "God is infallible"
I find somewhere where God fails.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Yes, and thats the bit I found funny. A fallable human thinking he knows better than God. Don't worry, you are not alone. There aer plenty of other people who think they know better.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Stop putting up the fact that I am fallible. Your only using it as a sheild against my point.
And as for God, <a href='http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Essays/PlayingGod.shtml' target='_blank'>is He really that clever?</a>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The way that this happened:
1)God set out the laws
2)Person broke a minor rule
3)God fails to punish them
4)They go on to break a major rule
5)God gets really annoyed and punishes them greatly
That better fits the example you provided.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So you expect God to be like a nanny, watching over every single person, slapping thier wrist every time he/she does something wrong? Do you realise that you wouldn't have a wrist to slap if that happend. It would have been slapped off.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So God's a bad heavenly father. You don't cane a baby with an axe to discipline it, do you? Yet God does the equivalent of that.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I for one wonder if we wouldn't be better off without God.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Well, are you? You are without God, tell me, is it better?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I wouldn't know. I've not had to life with the fear of a slip of the toungue landing me with being punished for eternity, have I?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Try Genisis 1:2 to Genisis 2:3 and Genisis 2:4 to Genisis 2:15</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I dont see any difference.

Genesis 1:2 - 2:3:
God creates the universe. The earth is just a desolate planet covered with water.
Day 1: God adds light, separate light from darkness and calls them day and night.
Day 2: God separate the water with the sky, clouds above the earth and water on it.
Day 3: God collects the water into one place and land appears. God lets the earth produce plants.
Day 4: God add the sun, moon and stars.
Day 5: God creates sea life and birds.
Day 6: God creates animals. God makes humans
Day 7: God rests.

Genesis 2:4 - 2:15
God makes Man and plants the garden of Eden. There is a stream there that divided into 4 rivers which flows around countries. God give Man laws to follow and tells him to guard the garden.

Those two accounts do not contradict each other whatsoever. One is just a more detailed account of a part of creation</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>In the second man is created the first day. Not day six. Enough of a contradiction for you?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X.Bogglesteinsky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
If He wants mindlessly loyal followers, then why give them the ability to refuse his commands?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Because he doesn't want mindlessly loyal follwers</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>He liked Adam and Eve best when they were too stupid to even know they were naked...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
He liked Adam and Eve best when they were not bothered about things like clothes, thier whole intent was just to love God.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Or were too stupid to do anything else. So why give them free will in the first place?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But... That means Jesus changed God's mind... Does that mean that God is fallible?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>No it doesn't. God had it all planned out. He was just waiting for the right time.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>And without even a bible quote to back it up. Cute.
Oh, and incidently, did he plan on kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden as well?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Compare and contrast:
Bully: Do as I say or I will hurt you.
God: Do as I say or I will send you to hell for an eternity of excruciating pain. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>The ony difference is, God has the right to send you to hell, the Bully doesn't have the right to beat you up. If you are going to insist of using the phrase "bully tactics" I would add that they "bully tactics" are perfectly justified.

You dont call a father a bully for punishing his son do you? "Go to bed now or else you will get a smack" isn't being a bully, it is asking for the obediance and respect deserved.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I don't see why God deserves respect when he acts as an attention seeker and a bully.

Bogglesteinsky · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 13 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Then why does God threaten to punish to the third and fourth generation in the Old testement Even though the forth generation was probably not conseived when the fater wronged? Why does he totally destroy Sodom, including all the children?

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I dont know, why dont you ask him?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why have humans lets sex rule thier lives? Prehaps due to an inbuilt tendancy towards sex?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Or perhaps our minds have been so screwed up with sin that we cannot see anything else of value apart from sex.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Oh, come on. There are no other theories submitted for peer reviewed journals and you've got a better answer? Then go ahead! Make up a theory that fits the facts given. Submit it to Nature or another peer-review journal!

Until then, evolution is the best and pretty much only model we have.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I know. Its a shame isn't it?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Rather that than God's even more flawed system. At least our flawed system attempts to only punish the guilty party.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

All of humanity is guilty. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" How much more guilty do you want. The jews used representatives. The fater of a family was resposible fo his whole family, and thier children too. in the OLD TESTAMENT, that was the way God worked as well.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Not alot. Just pointing out the contradictions between your thoughts and the bible <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Such as?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So? I was just pointing out the contradiction between your thoughts and the bible.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

See above

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God lets off all the sinners since Jesus took their place. Thus rendering any sort of disciplinary benifit null and void.

...

God seems to use it as one.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

What use is a punishment when it is too late? That is why hell is not a punishment. You get no disiplinary benefit from going to hell as you do not have another chance to make up for it. Hell is simply a place without God, as you cannot be in his presence.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Stop putting up the fact that I am fallible. Your only using it as a sheild against my point.
And as for God, <a href='http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Essays/PlayingGod.shtml' target='_blank'>is He really that clever?</a></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

"The page cannot be displayed"

Ok, I managed to get it to work. The author is commenting on the languaged used in the bible. Scientific knowledge then was nothing like we know it now. God is not talking to the mordern man, he is talking to Job. The account was written by a human, someone who had the scientific knowledge of a child. Maybe when the author challenges the meaning behind the words, rather than the words themselves, he would get a completely different answer. Until then, everything is simple small logisitical issues that are not important. Like the other "contradictions".

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So God's a bad heavenly father. You don't cane a baby with an axe to discipline it, do you? Yet God does the equivalent of that.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I dont suppose you have a quote do you?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In the second man is created the first day. Not day six. Enough of a contradiction for you?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

There is no timeframe given for the second account. We do not know when it happened.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Or were too stupid to do anything else. So why give them free will in the first place?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

So they could choose to have a relationship with God. (I am sure I have said that before.)

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Oh, and incidently, did he plan on kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden as well?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Yes. God has planned everything that has happened or will ever happen. He didn't want to, but they disobeyed him, so he had to.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't see why God deserves respect when he acts as an attention seeker and a bully.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well, that is your choice then. Don't let me stop you, but don't say I didnt warn you. God doesn't act like a bully. I have already shown that. Did you not read what I said? And since when did attention seeker come into it?

DrSuredeath · April 2004

8 major religions, one way to salvation. 70% of the world guaranteed life of eternal suffering in hell. That's all, folks! It's good to be atheist!

And can we possibly have more quotes?

Bill_Door · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Apr 13 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Then why does God threaten to punish to the third and fourth generation in the Old testement Even though the forth generation was probably not conseived when the fater wronged? Why does he totally destroy Sodom, including all the children? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I dont know, why dont you ask him?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Your the one who believes that He exists so I suggest you try. I think he's more likely to reply to you.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why have humans lets sex rule thier lives? Prehaps due to an inbuilt tendancy towards sex?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Or perhaps our minds have been so screwed up with sin that we cannot see anything else of value apart from sex.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>But if we were created perfectly, we wouldn't want to have sinned in the first place?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Oh, come on. There are no other theories submitted for peer reviewed journals and you've got a better answer? Then go ahead! Make up a theory that fits the facts given. Submit it to Nature or another peer-review journal!
Until then, evolution is the best and pretty much only model we have.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I know. Its a shame isn't it?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Whats a shame? That we have a fairly good model? Or is it just that it doesn't require God to work? Or the fact that evolution doesn't nescisarily lead to humanity?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Rather that than God's even more flawed system. At least our flawed system attempts to only punish the guilty party.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>All of humanity is guilty. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" How much more guilty do you want. The jews used representatives. The fater of a family was resposible fo his whole family, and thier children too. in the OLD TESTAMENT, that was the way God worked as well.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>If theres a 100% failure rate, then theres definatly something wrong with the thing being tested. Looks like God didn't create such a perfect thing in humanity.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Not alot. Just pointing out the contradictions between your thoughts and the bible <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Such as?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Oh, off the top off my head, the statement you made about humanity turning their backs on The Lord. It'd be easier if you didn't crop out the relavant part of the quotes.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God lets off all the sinners since Jesus took their place. Thus rendering any sort of disciplinary benifit null and void.

...

God seems to use it as one.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>What use is a punishment when it is too late? That is why hell is not a punishment. You get no disiplinary benefit from going to hell as you do not have another chance to make up for it.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>But Hell can be used as a warning to others.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Hell is simply a place without God, as you cannot be in his presence.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>That doen't sound all that bad. After all, even taking the Bible as The Complete Truth, what has God done for us after he created us? Tested and punished us.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Stop putting up the fact that I am fallible. Your only using it as a sheild against my point.
And as for God, <a href='http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Essays/PlayingGod.shtml' target='_blank'>is He really that clever?</a></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>The author is commenting on the languaged used in the bible.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Wha? *checks the page* no, its not changed since I last saw it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Scientific knowledge then was nothing like we know it now.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Still doesn't change the fact that God states that the Eatrh has foundations and cornerstones. That seas have springs. that light has an abode. That He has to provide the animals with food. All of which contradict our observations.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God is not talking to the mordern man, he is talking to Job. The account was written by a human, someone who had the scientific knowledge of a child.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>That still doesn't change the fact that there are no jars of rain in the sky.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Maybe when the author challenges the meaning behind the words, rather than the words themselves, he would get a completely different answer. Until then, everything is simple small logisitical issues that are not important. Like the other "contradictions".</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Remeber. The Bible Is Supposed To Be Infallible. There Should Be No Contradictions.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So God's a bad heavenly father. You don't cane a baby with an axe to discipline it, do you? Yet God does the equivalent of that.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I dont suppose you have a quote do you?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In the second man is created the first day. Not day six. Enough of a contradiction for you?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

There is no timeframe given for the second account. We do not know when it happened.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Or were too stupid to do anything else. So why give them free will in the first place?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>So they could choose to have a relationship with God. (I am sure I have said that before.)</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>But why make them so stupid as to not even know they are naked? Surely God can't have a meaingful relationship with people to stupid to even know they are naked?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Oh, and incidently, did he plan on kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden as well?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Yes. God has planned everything that has happened or will ever happen. He didn't want to, but they disobeyed him, so he had to.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Free will and omniscience don't play well together. How can you have free will if God knows what you are going to do?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't see why God deserves respect when he acts as an attention seeker and a bully.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Well, that is your choice then. Don't let me stop you, but don't say I didnt warn you. God doesn't act like a bully. I have already shown that. Did you not read what I said?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>I read. It didn't change the fact that God's MO fits a bully's MO.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Apr 13 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And since when did attention seeker come into it?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>The whole 'You must do nothing once every week but worship me' from the ten commandments

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exodus 12:16)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

coil · April 2004

Chill out, guys. Clearly you disagree... I'd suggest you agree to do so. I think we're done here; the topic at hand has long been forgotten.

A Religious Paradox

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