Is This Possible?

kolokol

<div class="IPBDescription">to do with split levels</div> Is it possible to allow the commander to build alternately on an upper level and the level below?
E.g. a transparent floor that one second can be built on and next second vanishes to allow strutures to be placed below. The trick is of course that I want the floor to appear solid at all times to the rest of the players, but to the comander is altenately visible to allow building below.
One way i can think of to do this is make a glass floor invisible to the comander, then have another floor toggled on and off. Would I be able to place buildings on it though?

HanzGrub3r

<b>Kolokol</b> : You should really read the mapping guideline. As of version 3.0 there is no practical way to code level-over-level maps for the commander. Flayra made it very clear that maps should be of the single level variety. Don't think of this as a limitation for mappers - think of it as a load off our back. We can build levels without worrying about entities for floors or wondering if things are going to work out.

The problem, in terms of coding a multi-level map is that the commander has enough trouble keeping track of all his marines as it is. Can you imagine having to track players on multiple levels? It would be impossible.

You can create the illusion of multi-levelled environments without it actually being multi-levelled. Using elevators and stairways that always have entrances at opposite sides you can make the player believe they are playing a multiple level map.

Hope this helps.

kolokol

Bit of a random post really. I was just thinking about starting a new map and i was brainstorming ideas. Don't worry ive given up on the idea. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Barathrum

What if the NS crew made a new entity called something like "env_floor" and you could specify a number for that entity. Then the commander could just press a button which he'd bound to that number and his view would change to that floor. The floor above would just disappear as the roof does in the ordinary command view with the func_seethrough entity. The floor below would just be black.

If a player calls for aid, a number would appear besides him so the commander knows which floor that specific player is located on.

Or maybe instead of using different buttons for different floors, you just use a scroll down and scroll up key.

Just a thought.

Insane

<!--QuoteBegin-Barathrum+Mar 22 2004, 03:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Barathrum @ Mar 22 2004, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What if the NS crew made a new entity called something like "env_floor" and you could specify a number for that entity. Then the commander could just press a button which he'd bound to that number and his view would change to that floor. The floor above would just disappear as the roof does in the ordinary command view with the func_seethrough entity. The floor below would just be black.

If a player calls for aid, a number would appear besides him so the commander knows which floor that specific player is located on.

Or maybe instead of using different buttons for different floors, you just use a scroll down and scroll up key.

Just a thought. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such things have been discussed quite extensively. It's been decided that it's simply much easier to just have no level-over-level.

Anyway, there's always NS:Combat if you want that sort of thing.

HanzGrub3r

<b>Barathrum</b> You're forgetting that the "top floor" would have other brushes besides just the floor. You would have to make EVERYTHING on the top floor into entities which would mean basically encasing the whole level in a huge sky box or something of that nature ot stop leaks (which would make the r_speeds unbearable) not to mention that all the entities would have to be edited to contain some sort of switch or setting to tell the game what floor a particular entity is for. It's just a whole heap of work for something that is so simple the way it is.

kolokol

Bararthrum sees what i was thinking of. I was going to have a glass ceilinged passage under ms...purely for the asthetics. Im working on my layout atm.

EEK

Wouldn't the most obvious solution be to allow multiple func_mapinfos?

HanzGrub3r

<b>EEK</b> : I understand what you mean about multiple mapinfo entities but the fact still remains that commander mode works by having the "camera" a certain distance above the level and looking down. You either have to make everything above the lower level become invisible to the commander (lots of ents / low fps) OOOORRRRR disconnect the upper and lower level somehow, which means you'd have to teleport players when they run down a flight a stairs. I guess the other option would be to have the stairs or elevators go down a sufficient height so that the commander could function inbetween the upper and lower. But you aren't gaining anything really because people have pushed the limits of HL bsp's to the very edge already... we can't go any bigger..

EEK

<!--QuoteBegin-HanzGrub3r+Mar 22 2004, 02:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HanzGrub3r @ Mar 22 2004, 02:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>EEK</b> : I understand what you mean about multiple mapinfo entities but the fact still remains that commander mode works by having the "camera" a certain distance above the level and looking down. You either have to make everything above the lower level become invisible to the commander (lots of ents / low fps) OOOORRRRR disconnect the upper and lower level somehow, which means you'd have to teleport players when they run down a flight a stairs. I guess the other option would be to have the stairs or elevators go down a sufficient height so that the commander could function inbetween the upper and lower. But you aren't gaining anything really because people have pushed the limits of HL bsp's to the very edge already... we can't go any bigger.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They've pushed limits on the X and Y, but maps rarely go very far in the Z dimension. If it weren't for the fact it'd take a week to compile and you have limits on leafs, brushes, and faces, and such, you could fit multiple Tanith's above and below each other.

Plaguebearer

that's because the further you get from the plane of commander-view, the more a PITA it is to pick out those teensy tiny little guys.

ZniLe

Would it be possible, to make a level with 2 floors, and i mean 2 large floors, and use 2 commanders, one for each floor?

that would be fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.





but i guess the halflife engine is not made for this.

kolokol

Possibly if we ever get a serious shortage of servers <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Avitar

Try and see if you can hack/fake it into the game... All it would require is a map info entity to be modified and reloaded in game.

It might be possible to do it. Limitations are meant to be over come when you have good reason to break the mold IMO =)

You would have to of course tie it to an event (like a timer? an elevator hitting a corner? or button near the com chair).

Basically if you worked at it you might find a loophole that could make it possible such as this. It isn't something i would suggest for the beginning mapper. In addition you would have to tell the players about it so they know and dont get confused.

Jean_Luc_Picard

This used to be possible... untill the stupid build limits... which are infinet in the verticle properties (you can have a ledge 300 feet up, build a turret on that ledge, and still not be able to build on the ground 300 feet below it... ><" wrong IMHO)


Quite annoying actually... you know how there's some spots where you can see a ledge, but also see the floor? Or see a huge vent, but also part of the floor? Should you build anything in the vent, you can no longer build in that buildin'gs build radius on the floor... I think that might want to be removed or fixed or whatever..

taleden

*bump*

Level-over-level is definitely frowned upon for ns_* maps, but if you're not aiming for "Official" status anyway, I'd say coming up with a playable multi-level map would still be pretty cool, and would probably enjoy decent rotation on the custom map servers.

My question is this: is level-over-level frowned upon for co_* maps as well? To quote the guidelines:

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Avoid Level-Over-Level - Natural Selection's commander mode places special limitations on its level designers. The largest restriction is the inability of maps to have rooms over other rooms. If one room is built on top of another, the commander can't give orders in or see into the lower room. Because of this problem, overlapping hallways and areas that cross over other areas should generally be avoided.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It sounds like the discouragement of level-over-level is entirely based on problems for the Commander; since co_ maps have no commander, does the restriction still apply? I'm working on a co_ map at the moment, and there are a few places where I'd really like to have some tunnels pass directly over and under a room, etc.

brute_force

Level over level in Combat is approved. In fact, alot of maps use this in their layouts.