Solution to this problem = Nuke the whole of the middle east! Israel arabs lock stock the lot nuke em all and turn the place in to a self lighting glass floored parking lot. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Only joking of course seriously tho how many times has it been reported that a "high ranking hamas leader" has been wasted by the israel military? seems to happen of a regular basis then they have one of them rowdy funeral parrades designed to stir up anger and hatered then they go pointlessly throw some bricks at some tanks and get shot for doing so then a suicide bomber goes and bookes him/her self a one way ticket to hell by blowing him/her self up next to as many civilians as possable.
<!--QuoteBegin-V-MAN+Mar 23 2004, 08:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V-MAN @ Mar 23 2004, 08:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Solution to this problem = Nuke the whole of the middle east <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Theoretically it would end the worlds problems- Humanity.
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Mar 23 2004, 10:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Mar 23 2004, 10:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did I mention that governments openly assassinating people is not only immoral, its downright scarey. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Myself, I find the possibility that I may be killed or horribly maimed while on the bus to Uni every morning far scarier.
The situation more than justifies assassination. These people are filth.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 23 2004, 02:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 23 2004, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Mar 23 2004, 10:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Mar 23 2004, 10:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did I mention that governments openly assassinating people is not only immoral, its downright scarey. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Myself, I find the possibility that I may be killed or horribly maimed while on the bus to Uni every morning far scarier.
The situation more than justifies assassination. These people are filth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the point is both are wrong, and neither justifies the other.
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3558431.stm' target='_blank'>British troops attacked after Hamas protest turns violent</a>
see this really pisses me off... Isreal kill a terrorist group supporter, and who gets the immidiate backlash? 14 poor British Squaddies just sent to do their job, yet Tony Blair condems the Yassin killing
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Mar 23 2004, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Mar 23 2004, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 23 2004, 02:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 23 2004, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Mar 23 2004, 10:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Mar 23 2004, 10:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did I mention that governments openly assassinating people is not only immoral, its downright scarey. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Myself, I find the possibility that I may be killed or horribly maimed while on the bus to Uni every morning far scarier.
The situation more than justifies assassination. These people are filth. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the point is both are wrong, and neither justifies the other. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I know what your point is, and I disagree with it. You're equating murdering innocents with murdering murderers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->. Why would Isreal embark on such an action when it knows the result will cost the lives of many of it's own citizens?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The argument you present seems pretty flawed. Along the very same lines, I can say "Why suicide bomb israel, when they know it will bring retaliation, and that will almost always mean collateral damage".
It goes both ways.
I'm saddened that several innocents died in the attack, but I'm glad they took this guy out. If the palestinians did not provide refuge, then maybe thy wouldn't be in the line of fire. But the common palestinian doesn't seem to be able to see far enough into the future that the radical extremists hiding amongst them is just bringing down more trouble on everyone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->. Why would Isreal embark on such an action when it knows the result will cost the lives of many of it's own citizens?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To further add to this - why SHOULDNT Israel embark on such an action when it knows that either way its civilians are going to die?
Damned if we do, damned if we dont, but at least this way we are doing <b>something</b>. Either way, terrorists are still going to blow themselves up on their buses.
Othello - I see you have run into Ryo's extreme pessimism and apathy for the members of other nations <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. I found it a little surprising myself when I discovered it in monse's "would you like to be invaded" thread. I consider it an extremely interesting insight into how some of those aligned with the left actually feel.
Just a question Ryo - if you were presented with a plan that involved the entire nation of Iraq being destroyed, perpetrated by Australia with nothing but massive gains for Australia, would you support it? I suspect the answer would be no, based upon the large scale loss of Iraqi life. In that scenario you seem to care about what happens to the Iraqi's, but previous claims made by you seemed to indicate a "screw the Iraqi's, lets take care of Australia" attitude. I'm just wondering, which is it - do you or do you not care about the Iraqi's?
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Mar 23 2004, 04:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Mar 23 2004, 04:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, Isreal says its campaigne of assassinations will continue. I guess we can expect alot more bloodshed in the near future. Did I mention that governments openly assassinating MURDERERS is not only immoral, its downright scarey. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You know I will agree with you on that point. When Israel kills militants, the Palestinian propaganda machine turns it around and calls it oppression and hordes of <a href='http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9070024%255E1702,00.html' target='_blank'>14 year old boys</a> are willing to blow themselves up. So yes, it is a bit counterproductive.
But what options does Israel have? Regardless of anything Israel does, Hamas et al. are determined to "drive them into the sea" a la 1939 genocide. They could go to the UN, but in nearly 8 years after Oslo the Palestinian Authority have done <b>nothing</b> to prosecute instigators and ringleaders like Yasim. Indeed, it is in their <b>best interest</b> to blame Israel for Palestinian poverty when really said poverty is due to the oppressive dictatorships and general lack of freedom.
Therefore, assasintating Yasim was justified, but strategically it will accomplish little.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Othello - I see you have run into Ryo's extreme pessimism and apathy for the members of other nations . I found it a little surprising myself when I discovered it in monse's "would you like to be invaded" thread. I consider it an extremely interesting insight into how some of those aligned with the left actually feel.
Just a question Ryo - if you were presented with a plan that involved the entire nation of Iraq being destroyed, perpetrated by Australia with nothing but massive gains for Australia, would you support it? I suspect the answer would be no, based upon the large scale loss of Iraqi life. In that scenario you seem to care about what happens to the Iraqi's, but previous claims made by you seemed to indicate a "screw the Iraqi's, lets take care of Australia" attitude. I'm just wondering, which is it - do you or do you not care about the Iraqi's?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man I don't even post anything in a thread and I get dragged in <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I've got no problem with helping another nation/people; but only if the citizens of the nation doing the helping come first. There are a lot of Australian families in need and many Australian services (health, education) that need government spending. If no Australian family lived below the poverty line and government services provided high quality reliable service, then going off and helping some other people would be fine as far as I'm concerned. Of course, that's a very far fetched goal, and may be impossible to achieve.
Now you're asking if I would support a plan that directly harms Iraqis; the answer would be no. I don't see why we should go out of our way to do something like that. I would be quite happy just leaving them alone and continuing on over here. That course of action might mean that some of them die from Saddam, but that's their own business. Plus the scenario you mention is utterly implausible; Iraq does not exist in a vacuum and wiping out all those people would have large consequenses elsewhere, such as anger from most of the world's nation's and possibly a huge terrorist backlash. No matter what could be found in Iraq that would benefit Australians, the consequenses of such a genocide would simply be too high.
My attitude is not so much "screw the Iraqis, let's take care of Australia", it's "I don't think humanitarian work is a justification for war". Take the Afghanistan conflict; I had no problem with that and subsequent helping of the people there because there was a tangible threat there that threatened Australian lives.
And please do not take my view on this particular instance to suggest that this is the view of left-wing individuals; it's not. In fact, if I were to mention such things at a left-wing meeting (not that I attend any) I would very likely be booed or physically thrown out. This opinion is my own and was not formulated by anyone else; I arrived at it by my own accord.
If your going to quote people, dont change words please <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Im not too familiar with the aims of these people, you keep telling me its about attributing blame for palistinian poverty. This conviniently ignores all the killings, demolishions and land theft perpetrated by Israel. trying to belittle this issue to somthing along the lines of jealously is ignoring alot of factors.
<a href='http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9075603%255E1702,00.html' target='_blank'>Top Palistinians call for peaceful protest</a>
Now these guys have the right idea. Peaceful, non-aggressive protesting is the way to go against Israel; using violence in response to Israeli violence doesn't really get you anywhere and makes world nations distinctly uneasy about helping you. I hope that the ideas of these Palistinians are taken to heart.
Its about time that the Palestinians against the violence speak up. Lets hope that this continues and it becomes harder and harder to recuite suicide bombers.
<a href='http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9080626%255E1702,00.html' target='_blank'>Assets of Hamas charities frozen</a>
This is rather interesting. Seems that Hamas gets a lot of support by giving education and health care to impovrished Palistinians. The assests of these charities though have been frozen since August to comply with a US request.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He said that with an annual budget of 50 million dollars, Al-Mujamma al-Islami was providing assistance to 20,000 orphans, 50,000 families, paying the tuition fees of 10,000 university students as well as providing education through a network of schools and kindergartens to some 20,000 children.
"We target those in need, regardless of their political affiliation," he said, adding that in Hamas' schools "pupils receive, of course, an extra dose of religion and of English as we acknowledge the fact that English is the world's language."
At the Dar Al-Arqam Model School, a fancy building complex with dozens of spotless classrooms founded by Yassin four years ago, students have access to a "top-level education, with computers and a large library," said deputy dean Mohammed Shamaa.
Yassin used to act as the school's dean.
Shamaa, who helped found Hamas with Yassin in 1987, said orphans, "children of martyrs" and other "special cases" were exempt of fees.
As in the case of all primary and secondary schools, Dar Al-Arqam follows the national Palestinian curriculum with "more emphasis on religious teachings," he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now here's the question: despite the tactics of Hamas against Israel, should their efforts to help Palistinains be halted? I'm not so naive as to claim that such services wouldn't come with a bit of propaganda (i.e. teaching kids that Israel is evil), but hey, learning to read is learning to read and a doctor is a doctor.
It's a very difficult question to answer, but it does demonstrate that so often things are not as black and white as they seem.
I hope this hasn't come up yet; I didn't have the time to read the whole thread.
Some people believe that the assassination was justified. They believe that Hamas, which has taken responsibility for the death of innocent civilians in the past, will be less effective in their terrorist activities in the future, and save lives in the long run.
Both sides in the conflict are responsible for the deaths of innocents. My question is: would the assassination of Sharon (or another high-ranking Israeli military official) be justified if it made Israel less effective in its military activities, and therefore (by the same logic as used in the argument above) save lives?
Some differences between Sharon and Hamas leaders... Sharon represents a nation where as Hamas leaders represent a terrorrist organization. So morally ( but not from Hamas' POV ) assassinating Sharon would be far different than assassinating a terrorrist leader.
Ryo, in regards to those funds being frozen... How do we know that they are only used for said practices? And even then... Learning to read lies and hatred is worse than just learning to read.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is rather interesting. Seems that Hamas gets a lot of support by giving education and health care to impovrished Palistinians. The assests of these charities though have been frozen since August to comply with a US request.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they do use the funds to help impovrished Palisinians, but than they use this a means to recruite terrorists. It keeps the public opinion of Hammas up, as they promise kids 70 virgins and 22 bucks if they blow themselfs up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some differences between Sharon and Hamas leaders... Sharon represents a nation where as Hamas leaders represent a terrorrist organization. So morally ( but not from Hamas' POV ) assassinating Sharon would be far different than assassinating a terrorrist leader.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact is that both are responsible for the death of innocent people. Applying seperate labels to Hamas and the Israeli government does not displace this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even then... Learning to read lies and hatred is worse than just learning to read.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree. The only way for the two groups to come closer to reconciliation is for the attidudes for the children, who will define the terms of the confict in the future, to change their attitudes. Although the problem of indoctrination exists for both Israeli and Palestinian school systems, the solution to the problem is not illiteracy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes they do use the funds to help impovrished Palisinians, but than they use this a means to recruite terrorists. It keeps the public opinion of Hammas up, as they promise kids 70 virgins and 22 bucks if they blow themselfs up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do you think Hamas recruits terrorists in the first place? Though they may have a variety of opinions on how they want it (including the destruction of Israel, which is the wrong way to get anything done) Hamas wants a better life for Palestinians. In their view, this includes teaching children to read, giving money to families to rebuild their homes, and providing what medical care they can, in addition to killing Israelis. You're right that it gets them more recruits, but that's not the reason they do it. Unfortunate as it may be, it is impossible to dismiss the gentler side of Hamas as just more bloodthirstyness.
<!--QuoteBegin-Melatonin+Mar 25 2004, 11:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Mar 25 2004, 11:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Im not too familiar with the aims of these people, you keep telling me its about attributing blame for palistinian poverty. This conviniently ignores all the killings, demolishions and land theft perpetrated by Israel. trying to belittle this issue to somthing along the lines of jealously is ignoring alot of factors. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not ignoring anything. I did concede that aggression against Israel is partly due to the on-going 50 year strife. It's a huge part of why suicide bombers attack Israelis.
What I'm saying is the odd Israeli attack is not the primary reason for Palestinian poverty, if it's significant at all.
For example when Israel killed Yasim, it was all over every newspaper across the paper, and occured several times in Al Jazeera. When a Hamas sent a 14 year old to suicide bomb Israel, it was all over the newspapers across the world, but Al Jazeera reported it was simply false. Where are the reports of Syrian tortures? The lack of women's rights? The ostensibly false textbooks?
My point is historically poverty has been attributed to a lack of basic rights, democracy, a free press, free enterprise, constitutional guarantes, and all those other great things that first world nations have. Israel becomes a convenient excuse used by the dictatorships to point the blame of Palestinian poverty. It's a classic Orwellian tactic. Because they control the media they can point the blame wherever they choose and people will believe it.
UNITED NATIONS - The United States vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution Thursday condemning Israel's assassination of Hamas leader Ahmed Yassin.
The veto came after Algeria, the resolution's sponsor, rejected a U.S. demand that the measure also condemn violence by Hamas and other militant groups by name.
The resolution "is silent about the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas," U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte said before the vote. He called the measure "unbalanced, one-sided."
"Israel's action has escalated tensions in Gaza and the region ... but events must be considered in their context," Negroponte said.
Critics said the veto condoned Israel's policy of assassinating militant leaders.
The vote, which followed days of debate, was 11 countries in favor, three countries abstaining, and only the United States against.
Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, was killed in a missile strike Monday morning in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites). Israel has warned that all other leaders of the group could be targeted.
Hamas has claimed responsibility for dozens of bombings and shootings of Israelis during 3 1/2 years of violence. Israel says it is targeting the group's leaders to stop such attacks, but critics say killing suspects without arresting or trying them violates international law.
On Wednesday, the U.N. Human Rights Commission in Geneva voted 31-2 to condemn Israel for Yassin's death, but the body has no power to punish countries. A resolution by the Security Council would have carried more international weight.
The 11 Security Council members who voted for the measure were: China, Russia, France, The Philippines, Angola, Chile, Pakistan, Spain, Algeria, Benin and Brazil.
Britain, Germany and Romania abstained.
The vetoed resolution condemned Yassin's death and called for a "complete cessation of extrajudicial executions." It also condemned "all terrorist attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction."
However, it did not mention any militant groups by name — a traditional U.S. demand.
Only five members of the Security Council — the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France — can veto the body's resolutions. Thursday's veto is the United States' 79th and the latest in a long string of vetoes regarding Israel.
The Soviet Union and Russia have cast the most Security Council vetoes over the years, 121. Britain has cast 32, France 18 and China, 5. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems a lot of people aren't happy with Israels actions. And again shows that the itnernational community condemns goverment sponsered assassinations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is that both are responsible for the death of innocent people. Applying seperate labels to Hamas and the Israeli government does not displace this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, if you start adding context it does. Hamas targets innocent people... While Israel does not. The differences between the two sides are phenomenal... Israel is not looking to destroy and kill as many Palestinians as possible. Where as Hamas and other terrorrist organizations are.
When you start to put terrorrist organizations and legitimate countries on the same level, then you start giving the terrorrist organizations legitimacy. We should strive to give terrorrist organizations as much legitimacy as possible. They deserve none. They have none.
I do not remember such a fuss being brought up when the US had a flying drone shoot a missile and kill those terrorrists running away in the car ( was it in Yemen? Can't remember where it was. ). This is the same thing.
Terrorrists and their leaders should be ( and luckily are ) free targets at this point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree. The only way for the two groups to come closer to reconciliation is for the attidudes for the children, who will define the terms of the confict in the future, to change their attitudes. Although the problem of indoctrination exists for both Israeli and Palestinian school systems, the solution to the problem is not illiteracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How can the children change their attitudes when they are being taught lies and hatred? That will not happen. Being able to read after you believe the lies and hatred will not help achieve peace... The sad truth is that neither is a good alternative. A literate suicide bomber or an ignorant suicide bomber.
Dr. d That once again shows how the international community will chastise Israel every chance it gets, but always balks or complains when chastising Palestinian terrorrist organizations is wanted. You notice how they would not approve actually naming the terrorrist organizations? What is up with that? That provides more legitimacy to them... It tells them they have international support. This is not something that should be done.
I remember when a motion was passed at the UN condemning the deaths of Palestinian children from Israeli missile strikes... Yet an almost duplicate motion condemning the killing of Israeli children by Palestinian suicide bombers would not pass. This is why the international community's opinions about Israeli actions are almost worth a grain of salt. The double standards and bias and hatred exhibitted toward Israel is outrageous.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seems a lot of people aren't happy with Israels actions. And again shows that the itnernational community condemns goverment sponsered assassinations. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But these same nations would have no problem with dropping a bomb on Osama. Its ridiculouse that these nations that are upset will hold Isreal to different standards than themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why do you think Hamas recruits terrorists in the first place? Though they may have a variety of opinions on how they want it (including the destruction of Israel, which is the wrong way to get anything done) Hamas wants a better life for Palestinians. In their view, this includes teaching children to read, giving money to families to rebuild their homes, and providing what medical care they can, in addition to killing Israelis. You're right that it gets them more recruits, but that's not the reason they do it. Unfortunate as it may be, it is impossible to dismiss the gentler side of Hamas as just more bloodthirstyness<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if I start a foundation that helps innercity kids learn to read, than actively recruit these kids to go suicide bomb in the subarbs; its all okay? There is no gentle side to Hammas, they are killing innocents. If Hammas truely wanted a better life for the palestinians, they would stop sending kids of to blow busses up. They know what the results will be, Isreal will retaliate with force. The leaders of Hammas are niether blind or stupid, they know what they do.
<!--QuoteBegin-Special K+Mar 26 2004, 07:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Special K @ Mar 26 2004, 07:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some differences between Sharon and Hamas leaders... Sharon represents a nation where as Hamas leaders represent a terrorrist organization. So morally ( but not from Hamas' POV ) assassinating Sharon would be far different than assassinating a terrorrist leader.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact is that both are responsible for the death of innocent people. Applying seperate labels to Hamas and the Israeli government does not displace this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No. Israel's forces do not set out to kill and maim as many innocent civillians as possible, in order to incite fear. Hamas' forces <i>do</i>. You're equating military action with terrorism, and frankly that's disgusting. We've already covered that in this thread; if you can't be bothered to read through a thread before posting, don't post in it. That's in the discussion forum rules for a reason.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, if you start adding context it does. Hamas targets innocent people... While Israel does not. The differences between the two sides are phenomenal... Israel is not looking to destroy and kill as many Palestinians as possible. Where as Hamas and other terrorrist organizations are.
When you start to put terrorrist organizations and legitimate countries on the same level, then you start giving the terrorrist organizations legitimacy. We should strive to give terrorrist organizations as much legitimacy as possible. They deserve none. They have none.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The motives of both groups are not so transparent as you make them out to be (at least not to me). It would be easy to say that since Israel is a democratic state, it doesn't do t
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can the children change their attitudes when they are being taught lies and hatred? That will not happen. Being able to read after you believe the lies and hatred will not help achieve peace... The sad truth is that neither is a good alternative. A literate suicide bomber or an ignorant suicide bomber.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All I'm saying is that the solution is not to keep children illiterate. You're right that teaching children to hate is in no way helping the situation, but chances are that those children would be brought up to hate anyways, even without the benefit of formal education. A child that can do math and hate Israelis/Palestinians is better than one that can't but will still hate. Education is a key factor in ending the cycle of poverty that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians find themselves in.
Also realize that biases is just as likely to exist in the Israeli education system as it is in the Hamas education system (just like it exists to some degree in every education system in the world). Simply not educating anyone will get nothing done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So if I start a foundation that helps innercity kids learn to read, than actively recruit these kids to go suicide bomb in the subarbs; its all okay? There is no gentle side to Hammas, they are killing innocents.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hamas is responsible for the death of thousands of people. Its leaders who believe suicide bombing is an acceptable strategy to achieve their goals are wrong. You can't discount, however, that they have improved conditions for some Palestinians.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If Hammas truely wanted a better life for the palestinians, they would stop sending kids of to blow busses up. They know what the results will be, Isreal will retaliate with force. The leaders of Hammas are niether blind or stupid, they know what they do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do you think Hamas wants to murder Israelis? Hamas' goal is to create a unified, independant, Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel. Why? Not simply for the sake of destroying something. Hamas wants to return to life as it was before the state of Israel was created; a return to when Palestinians weren't poor, surviving on the aid doled out to them. The way they are setting about this goal is wrong, and won't work, but no matter how twisted the means of achieving a Palestinian state they employ, the goal itself is not something so easily discounted. If Hamas were not an extremely violent group, then I would not have trouble sympathizing with them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No. Israel's forces do not set out to kill and maim as many innocent civillians as possible, in order to incite fear. Hamas' forces do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why Hamas kills people is to destabilize Israel to the point where Israel as a coherent state is destroyed. Israel assassinates terrorist leaders to keep their organizations destabilized. In my opinion both groups are equally wrong. Both are killing eachother to get the upper hand. I don't think its possible to find one group's position more morally defensible than the other.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're equating military action with terrorism, and frankly that's disgusting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is Israeli military action, responsible for thousands of deaths (like Hamas is) no less disgusting than terrorism? You think the practice of killing innocent people with suicide bombs instead of missiles and tanks is 'disgusting'. By this logic, if Hamas put together the funds to create a military who could take 'action', killing civilians by way of 'military action' would be as legitimate as you believe Israel's actions are. 'Military action' could then be used to justify any number of atrocities, including what you call 'terrorism'. Hamas' use of violence deplorable, but Israel's reaction to that violence is just as bad.
So let me get this straight. You're saying that there's no difference between deliberately targeting innocent people while they're on their way to work, and accidentally a civillian in the crossfire of a heated battle?
Hammas are targeting and killing people who want no part in the conflict. Ordinary people on their way to work, or school, or enjoying a meal at a restaraunt. The IDF are targeting... the kindest term I can think of is "combatants", so we'll go with that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is Israeli military action, responsible for thousands of deaths (like Hamas is) no less disgusting than terrorism?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Despite the impression you may get from the media, IDF troops don't walk into refugee camps and machinegun everthing that moves. They don't plant explosives in Arab schools. They don't <i>set out to kill innocent civillians</i>. Civillian deaths occur when they get caught in the crossfire.
I don't think you understand the situation. We're talking about individuals that orchestrate campaigns of inciting hatred against Israeli citizens among Palestinian people, fuelling fanaticism. They provide motivation, equipment and training for people willing to murder as many innocent people as they can, even if it means they have to die in the process. These men are responsible for running organisations whose sole purpose is to kill civillians.
Perhaps you're unclear about what a "civillian" is. A non-combatant. Someone who does not want to participate in armed conflict. To a soldier, on the other hand, death is an occupational hazard. They knowingly put themselves in danger because that's what they're paid to do. Wars are fought with the understanding that the soldiers fight the soldiers. International law protects non-combatants - attacking and killing civillians is murder.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By this logic, if Hamas put together the funds to create a military who could take 'action', killing civilians by way of 'military action' would be as legitimate as you believe Israel's actions are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I fail to see any logic in that statement. Could you rephrase it, please?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The motives of both groups are not so transparent as you make them out to be (at least not to me).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Hammas' motivess are quite transparent, they have announnced them over and over again. The want to kill the jews.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hamas wants to return to life as it was before the state of Israel was created<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or do you mean before Palestine took part in an attack on Isreal along with several other nations, got their **** handed to them, and lost the land they attacked from.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hamas is responsible for the death of thousands of people. Its leaders who believe suicide bombing is an acceptable strategy to achieve their goals are wrong. You can't discount, however, that they have improved conditions for some Palestinians.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can do, and with ease. As you said they are responsible for the deaths of thousands of people; innocent men, women, and children. They send impressionable children off to blow themselves up. Untill Hammas stops with the suicide bombings, it will be imposible to say that they do good. Their bad actions far out wiegh their good actions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hamas' use of violence deplorable, but Israel's reaction to that violence is just as bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the perfect world you can solve a problem without the use of violence. Our world is far from perfect, and violence is often the only course of action left. Hammas is on a jihad, a religious war, to expell the jews from their lands. Ever try to convience someone that their religion is wrong? Try it sometime, but make sure its with someone willing to blow themselves up for their god. When you are sucessfull get back to me.
Comments
Only joking of course seriously tho how many times has it been reported that a "high ranking hamas leader" has been wasted by the israel military? seems to happen of a regular basis then they have one of them rowdy funeral parrades designed to stir up anger and hatered then they go pointlessly throw some bricks at some tanks and get shot for doing so then a suicide bomber goes and bookes him/her self a one way ticket to hell by blowing him/her self up next to as many civilians as possable.
Theoretically it would end the worlds problems- Humanity.
I guess we can expect alot more bloodshed in the near future.
Did I mention that governments openly assassinating people is not only immoral, its downright scarey.
Myself, I find the possibility that I may be killed or horribly maimed while on the bus to Uni every morning far scarier.
The situation more than justifies assassination. These people are filth.
Myself, I find the possibility that I may be killed or horribly maimed while on the bus to Uni every morning far scarier.
The situation more than justifies assassination. These people are filth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point is both are wrong, and neither justifies the other.
see this really pisses me off... Isreal kill a terrorist group supporter, and who gets the immidiate backlash? 14 poor British Squaddies just sent to do their job, yet Tony Blair condems the Yassin killing
Myself, I find the possibility that I may be killed or horribly maimed while on the bus to Uni every morning far scarier.
The situation more than justifies assassination. These people are filth. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point is both are wrong, and neither justifies the other. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what your point is, and I disagree with it. You're equating murdering innocents with murdering murderers.
The argument you present seems pretty flawed.
Along the very same lines, I can say "Why suicide bomb israel, when they know it will bring retaliation, and that will almost always mean collateral damage".
It goes both ways.
I'm saddened that several innocents died in the attack, but I'm glad they took this guy out. If the palestinians did not provide refuge, then maybe thy wouldn't be in the line of fire. But the common palestinian doesn't seem to be able to see far enough into the future that the radical extremists hiding amongst them is just bringing down more trouble on everyone.
To further add to this - why SHOULDNT Israel embark on such an action when it knows that either way its civilians are going to die?
Damned if we do, damned if we dont, but at least this way we are doing <b>something</b>. Either way, terrorists are still going to blow themselves up on their buses.
Othello - I see you have run into Ryo's extreme pessimism and apathy for the members of other nations <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. I found it a little surprising myself when I discovered it in monse's "would you like to be invaded" thread. I consider it an extremely interesting insight into how some of those aligned with the left actually feel.
Just a question Ryo - if you were presented with a plan that involved the entire nation of Iraq being destroyed, perpetrated by Australia with nothing but massive gains for Australia, would you support it? I suspect the answer would be no, based upon the large scale loss of Iraqi life. In that scenario you seem to care about what happens to the Iraqi's, but previous claims made by you seemed to indicate a "screw the Iraqi's, lets take care of Australia" attitude. I'm just wondering, which is it - do you or do you not care about the Iraqi's?
I guess we can expect alot more bloodshed in the near future.
Did I mention that governments openly assassinating MURDERERS is not only immoral, its downright scarey. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know I will agree with you on that point. When Israel kills militants, the Palestinian propaganda machine turns it around and calls it oppression and hordes of <a href='http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9070024%255E1702,00.html' target='_blank'>14 year old boys</a> are willing to blow themselves up.
So yes, it is a bit counterproductive.
But what options does Israel have? Regardless of anything Israel does, Hamas et al. are determined to "drive them into the sea" a la 1939 genocide.
They could go to the UN, but in nearly 8 years after Oslo the Palestinian Authority have done <b>nothing</b> to prosecute instigators and ringleaders like Yasim. Indeed, it is in their <b>best interest</b> to blame Israel for Palestinian poverty when really said poverty is due to the oppressive dictatorships and general lack of freedom.
Therefore, assasintating Yasim was justified, but strategically it will accomplish little.
Just a question Ryo - if you were presented with a plan that involved the entire nation of Iraq being destroyed, perpetrated by Australia with nothing but massive gains for Australia, would you support it? I suspect the answer would be no, based upon the large scale loss of Iraqi life. In that scenario you seem to care about what happens to the Iraqi's, but previous claims made by you seemed to indicate a "screw the Iraqi's, lets take care of Australia" attitude. I'm just wondering, which is it - do you or do you not care about the Iraqi's?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man I don't even post anything in a thread and I get dragged in <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I've got no problem with helping another nation/people; but only if the citizens of the nation doing the helping come first. There are a lot of Australian families in need and many Australian services (health, education) that need government spending. If no Australian family lived below the poverty line and government services provided high quality reliable service, then going off and helping some other people would be fine as far as I'm concerned. Of course, that's a very far fetched goal, and may be impossible to achieve.
Now you're asking if I would support a plan that directly harms Iraqis; the answer would be no. I don't see why we should go out of our way to do something like that. I would be quite happy just leaving them alone and continuing on over here. That course of action might mean that some of them die from Saddam, but that's their own business. Plus the scenario you mention is utterly implausible; Iraq does not exist in a vacuum and wiping out all those people would have large consequenses elsewhere, such as anger from most of the world's nation's and possibly a huge terrorist backlash. No matter what could be found in Iraq that would benefit Australians, the consequenses of such a genocide would simply be too high.
My attitude is not so much "screw the Iraqis, let's take care of Australia", it's "I don't think humanitarian work is a justification for war". Take the Afghanistan conflict; I had no problem with that and subsequent helping of the people there because there was a tangible threat there that threatened Australian lives.
And please do not take my view on this particular instance to suggest that this is the view of left-wing individuals; it's not. In fact, if I were to mention such things at a left-wing meeting (not that I attend any) I would very likely be booed or physically thrown out. This opinion is my own and was not formulated by anyone else; I arrived at it by my own accord.
Im not too familiar with the aims of these people, you keep telling me its about attributing blame for palistinian poverty.
This conviniently ignores all the killings, demolishions and land theft perpetrated by Israel.
trying to belittle this issue to somthing along the lines of jealously is ignoring alot of factors.
Now these guys have the right idea. Peaceful, non-aggressive protesting is the way to go against Israel; using violence in response to Israeli violence doesn't really get you anywhere and makes world nations distinctly uneasy about helping you. I hope that the ideas of these Palistinians are taken to heart.
This is rather interesting. Seems that Hamas gets a lot of support by giving education and health care to impovrished Palistinians. The assests of these charities though have been frozen since August to comply with a US request.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He said that with an annual budget of 50 million dollars, Al-Mujamma al-Islami was providing assistance to 20,000 orphans, 50,000 families, paying the tuition fees of 10,000 university students as well as providing education through a network of schools and kindergartens to some 20,000 children.
"We target those in need, regardless of their political affiliation," he said, adding that in Hamas' schools "pupils receive, of course, an extra dose of religion and of English as we acknowledge the fact that English is the world's language."
At the Dar Al-Arqam Model School, a fancy building complex with dozens of spotless classrooms founded by Yassin four years ago, students have access to a "top-level education, with computers and a large library," said deputy dean Mohammed Shamaa.
Yassin used to act as the school's dean.
Shamaa, who helped found Hamas with Yassin in 1987, said orphans, "children of martyrs" and other "special cases" were exempt of fees.
As in the case of all primary and secondary schools, Dar Al-Arqam follows the national Palestinian curriculum with "more emphasis on religious teachings," he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now here's the question: despite the tactics of Hamas against Israel, should their efforts to help Palistinains be halted? I'm not so naive as to claim that such services wouldn't come with a bit of propaganda (i.e. teaching kids that Israel is evil), but hey, learning to read is learning to read and a doctor is a doctor.
It's a very difficult question to answer, but it does demonstrate that so often things are not as black and white as they seem.
Some people believe that the assassination was justified. They believe that Hamas, which has taken responsibility for the death of innocent civilians in the past, will be less effective in their terrorist activities in the future, and save lives in the long run.
Both sides in the conflict are responsible for the deaths of innocents. My question is: would the assassination of Sharon (or another high-ranking Israeli military official) be justified if it made Israel less effective in its military activities, and therefore (by the same logic as used in the argument above) save lives?
sharon legitimatly represents his people, this is where some would argue he cannot be assassinated.. i guess.
Ryo, in regards to those funds being frozen... How do we know that they are only used for said practices? And even then... Learning to read lies and hatred is worse than just learning to read.
Yes they do use the funds to help impovrished Palisinians, but than they use this a means to recruite terrorists. It keeps the public opinion of Hammas up, as they promise kids 70 virgins and 22 bucks if they blow themselfs up.
The fact is that both are responsible for the death of innocent people. Applying seperate labels to Hamas and the Israeli government does not displace this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even then... Learning to read lies and hatred is worse than just learning to read.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. The only way for the two groups to come closer to reconciliation is for the attidudes for the children, who will define the terms of the confict in the future, to change their attitudes. Although the problem of indoctrination exists for both Israeli and Palestinian school systems, the solution to the problem is not illiteracy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes they do use the funds to help impovrished Palisinians, but than they use this a means to recruite terrorists. It keeps the public opinion of Hammas up, as they promise kids 70 virgins and 22 bucks if they blow themselfs up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you think Hamas recruits terrorists in the first place? Though they may have a variety of opinions on how they want it (including the destruction of Israel, which is the wrong way to get anything done) Hamas wants a better life for Palestinians. In their view, this includes teaching children to read, giving money to families to rebuild their homes, and providing what medical care they can, in addition to killing Israelis. You're right that it gets them more recruits, but that's not the reason they do it. Unfortunate as it may be, it is impossible to dismiss the gentler side of Hamas as just more bloodthirstyness.
This conviniently ignores all the killings, demolishions and land theft perpetrated by Israel.
trying to belittle this issue to somthing along the lines of jealously is ignoring alot of factors. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not ignoring anything. I did concede that aggression against Israel is partly due to the on-going 50 year strife. It's a huge part of why suicide bombers attack Israelis.
What I'm saying is the odd Israeli attack is not the primary reason for Palestinian poverty, if it's significant at all.
For example when Israel killed Yasim, it was all over every newspaper across the paper, and occured several times in Al Jazeera.
When a Hamas sent a 14 year old to suicide bomb Israel, it was all over the newspapers across the world, but Al Jazeera reported it was simply false.
Where are the reports of Syrian tortures? The lack of women's rights? The ostensibly false textbooks?
My point is historically poverty has been attributed to a lack of basic rights, democracy, a free press, free enterprise, constitutional guarantes, and all those other great things that first world nations have.
Israel becomes a convenient excuse used by the dictatorships to point the blame of Palestinian poverty. It's a classic Orwellian tactic. Because they control the media they can point the blame wherever they choose and people will believe it.
UNITED NATIONS - The United States vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution Thursday condemning Israel's assassination of Hamas leader Ahmed Yassin.
The veto came after Algeria, the resolution's sponsor, rejected a U.S. demand that the measure also condemn violence by Hamas and other militant groups by name.
The resolution "is silent about the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas," U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte said before the vote. He called the measure "unbalanced, one-sided."
"Israel's action has escalated tensions in Gaza and the region ... but events must be considered in their context," Negroponte said.
Critics said the veto condoned Israel's policy of assassinating militant leaders.
The vote, which followed days of debate, was 11 countries in favor, three countries abstaining, and only the United States against.
Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, was killed in a missile strike Monday morning in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites). Israel has warned that all other leaders of the group could be targeted.
Hamas has claimed responsibility for dozens of bombings and shootings of Israelis during 3 1/2 years of violence. Israel says it is targeting the group's leaders to stop such attacks, but critics say killing suspects without arresting or trying them violates international law.
On Wednesday, the U.N. Human Rights Commission in Geneva voted 31-2 to condemn Israel for Yassin's death, but the body has no power to punish countries. A resolution by the Security Council would have carried more international weight.
The 11 Security Council members who voted for the measure were: China, Russia, France, The Philippines, Angola, Chile, Pakistan, Spain, Algeria, Benin and Brazil.
Britain, Germany and Romania abstained.
The vetoed resolution condemned Yassin's death and called for a "complete cessation of extrajudicial executions." It also condemned "all terrorist attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction."
However, it did not mention any militant groups by name — a traditional U.S. demand.
Only five members of the Security Council — the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France — can veto the body's resolutions. Thursday's veto is the United States' 79th and the latest in a long string of vetoes regarding Israel.
The Soviet Union and Russia have cast the most Security Council vetoes over the years, 121. Britain has cast 32, France 18 and China, 5. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems a lot of people aren't happy with Israels actions. And again shows that the itnernational community condemns goverment sponsered assassinations.
Well, if you start adding context it does. Hamas targets innocent people... While Israel does not. The differences between the two sides are phenomenal... Israel is not looking to destroy and kill as many Palestinians as possible. Where as Hamas and other terrorrist organizations are.
When you start to put terrorrist organizations and legitimate countries on the same level, then you start giving the terrorrist organizations legitimacy. We should strive to give terrorrist organizations as much legitimacy as possible. They deserve none. They have none.
I do not remember such a fuss being brought up when the US had a flying drone shoot a missile and kill those terrorrists running away in the car ( was it in Yemen? Can't remember where it was. ). This is the same thing.
Terrorrists and their leaders should be ( and luckily are ) free targets at this point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree. The only way for the two groups to come closer to reconciliation is for the attidudes for the children, who will define the terms of the confict in the future, to change their attitudes. Although the problem of indoctrination exists for both Israeli and Palestinian school systems, the solution to the problem is not illiteracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can the children change their attitudes when they are being taught lies and hatred? That will not happen. Being able to read after you believe the lies and hatred will not help achieve peace... The sad truth is that neither is a good alternative. A literate suicide bomber or an ignorant suicide bomber.
Dr. d
That once again shows how the international community will chastise Israel every chance it gets, but always balks or complains when chastising Palestinian terrorrist organizations is wanted. You notice how they would not approve actually naming the terrorrist organizations? What is up with that? That provides more legitimacy to them... It tells them they have international support. This is not something that should be done.
I remember when a motion was passed at the UN condemning the deaths of Palestinian children from Israeli missile strikes... Yet an almost duplicate motion condemning the killing of Israeli children by Palestinian suicide bombers would not pass. This is why the international community's opinions about Israeli actions are almost worth a grain of salt. The double standards and bias and hatred exhibitted toward Israel is outrageous.
But these same nations would have no problem with dropping a bomb on Osama. Its ridiculouse that these nations that are upset will hold Isreal to different standards than themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why do you think Hamas recruits terrorists in the first place? Though they may have a variety of opinions on how they want it (including the destruction of Israel, which is the wrong way to get anything done) Hamas wants a better life for Palestinians. In their view, this includes teaching children to read, giving money to families to rebuild their homes, and providing what medical care they can, in addition to killing Israelis. You're right that it gets them more recruits, but that's not the reason they do it. Unfortunate as it may be, it is impossible to dismiss the gentler side of Hamas as just more bloodthirstyness<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if I start a foundation that helps innercity kids learn to read, than actively recruit these kids to go suicide bomb in the subarbs; its all okay? There is no gentle side to Hammas, they are killing innocents. If Hammas truely wanted a better life for the palestinians, they would stop sending kids of to blow busses up. They know what the results will be, Isreal will retaliate with force. The leaders of Hammas are niether blind or stupid, they know what they do.
The fact is that both are responsible for the death of innocent people. Applying seperate labels to Hamas and the Israeli government does not displace this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Israel's forces do not set out to kill and maim as many innocent civillians as possible, in order to incite fear. Hamas' forces <i>do</i>. You're equating military action with terrorism, and frankly that's disgusting. We've already covered that in this thread; if you can't be bothered to read through a thread before posting, don't post in it. That's in the discussion forum rules for a reason.
When you start to put terrorrist organizations and legitimate countries on the same level, then you start giving the terrorrist organizations legitimacy. We should strive to give terrorrist organizations as much legitimacy as possible. They deserve none. They have none.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The motives of both groups are not so transparent as you make them out to be (at least not to me). It would be easy to say that since Israel is a democratic state, it doesn't do t
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can the children change their attitudes when they are being taught lies and hatred? That will not happen. Being able to read after you believe the lies and hatred will not help achieve peace... The sad truth is that neither is a good alternative. A literate suicide bomber or an ignorant suicide bomber.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I'm saying is that the solution is not to keep children illiterate. You're right that teaching children to hate is in no way helping the situation, but chances are that those children would be brought up to hate anyways, even without the benefit of formal education. A child that can do math and hate Israelis/Palestinians is better than one that can't but will still hate. Education is a key factor in ending the cycle of poverty that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians find themselves in.
Also realize that biases is just as likely to exist in the Israeli education system as it is in the Hamas education system (just like it exists to some degree in every education system in the world). Simply not educating anyone will get nothing done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So if I start a foundation that helps innercity kids learn to read, than actively recruit these kids to go suicide bomb in the subarbs; its all okay? There is no gentle side to Hammas, they are killing innocents.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hamas is responsible for the death of thousands of people. Its leaders who believe suicide bombing is an acceptable strategy to achieve their goals are wrong. You can't discount, however, that they have improved conditions for some Palestinians.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If Hammas truely wanted a better life for the palestinians, they would stop sending kids of to blow busses up. They know what the results will be, Isreal will retaliate with force. The leaders of Hammas are niether blind or stupid, they know what they do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you think Hamas wants to murder Israelis? Hamas' goal is to create a unified, independant, Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel. Why? Not simply for the sake of destroying something. Hamas wants to return to life as it was before the state of Israel was created; a return to when Palestinians weren't poor, surviving on the aid doled out to them. The way they are setting about this goal is wrong, and won't work, but no matter how twisted the means of achieving a Palestinian state they employ, the goal itself is not something so easily discounted. If Hamas were not an extremely violent group, then I would not have trouble sympathizing with them.
The reason why Hamas kills people is to destabilize Israel to the point where Israel as a coherent state is destroyed. Israel assassinates terrorist leaders to keep their organizations destabilized. In my opinion both groups are equally wrong. Both are killing eachother to get the upper hand. I don't think its possible to find one group's position more morally defensible than the other.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're equating military action with terrorism, and frankly that's disgusting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is Israeli military action, responsible for thousands of deaths (like Hamas is) no less disgusting than terrorism? You think the practice of killing innocent people with suicide bombs instead of missiles and tanks is 'disgusting'. By this logic, if Hamas put together the funds to create a military who could take 'action', killing civilians by way of 'military action' would be as legitimate as you believe Israel's actions are. 'Military action' could then be used to justify any number of atrocities, including what you call 'terrorism'.
Hamas' use of violence deplorable, but Israel's reaction to that violence is just as bad.
Hammas are targeting and killing people who want no part in the conflict. Ordinary people on their way to work, or school, or enjoying a meal at a restaraunt. The IDF are targeting... the kindest term I can think of is "combatants", so we'll go with that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is Israeli military action, responsible for thousands of deaths (like Hamas is) no less disgusting than terrorism?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Despite the impression you may get from the media, IDF troops don't walk into refugee camps and machinegun everthing that moves. They don't plant explosives in Arab schools. They don't <i>set out to kill innocent civillians</i>. Civillian deaths occur when they get caught in the crossfire.
I don't think you understand the situation. We're talking about individuals that orchestrate campaigns of inciting hatred against Israeli citizens among Palestinian people, fuelling fanaticism. They provide motivation, equipment and training for people willing to murder as many innocent people as they can, even if it means they have to die in the process. These men are responsible for running organisations whose sole purpose is to kill civillians.
Perhaps you're unclear about what a "civillian" is. A non-combatant. Someone who does not want to participate in armed conflict. To a soldier, on the other hand, death is an occupational hazard. They knowingly put themselves in danger because that's what they're paid to do. Wars are fought with the understanding that the soldiers fight the soldiers. International law protects non-combatants - attacking and killing civillians is murder.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By this logic, if Hamas put together the funds to create a military who could take 'action', killing civilians by way of 'military action' would be as legitimate as you believe Israel's actions are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fail to see any logic in that statement. Could you rephrase it, please?
Actually Hammas' motivess are quite transparent, they have announnced them over and over again. The want to kill the jews.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hamas wants to return to life as it was before the state of Israel was created<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or do you mean before Palestine took part in an attack on Isreal along with several other nations, got their **** handed to them, and lost the land they attacked from.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hamas is responsible for the death of thousands of people. Its leaders who believe suicide bombing is an acceptable strategy to achieve their goals are wrong. You can't discount, however, that they have improved conditions for some Palestinians.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can do, and with ease. As you said they are responsible for the deaths of thousands of people; innocent men, women, and children. They send impressionable children off to blow themselves up. Untill Hammas stops with the suicide bombings, it will be imposible to say that they do good. Their bad actions far out wiegh their good actions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hamas' use of violence deplorable, but Israel's reaction to that violence is just as bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the perfect world you can solve a problem without the use of violence. Our world is far from perfect, and violence is often the only course of action left. Hammas is on a jihad, a religious war, to expell the jews from their lands. Ever try to convience someone that their religion is wrong? Try it sometime, but make sure its with someone willing to blow themselves up for their god. When you are sucessfull get back to me.