I Would Suggest...
Bridger
Join Date: 2002-10-30 Member: 1761Members
Join Date: 2002-10-30 Member: 1761Members
<div class="IPBDescription">though it's probably been suggested...</div> Perhaps to break the D-M-S chain, we stop the restrictions of chambers by hives, and instend restrict the number of upgrades each alien can get. I.E.
At level 1 hive, you can build all 3 chambers, but only get one upgrade. At 2 hives, you can get 2 upgrades, and at 3 hives, you get 3 upgrades. This would make placing the different chambers more viable.
Above that, i'd suggest allowing aliens to choose ANY 3 upgrades, not just 1 per chamber. I guess this was done for balance reasons? But it really restricts tactics. I really love playing skulk in combat because you can get cloak+focus+silence all together. Would a carpace+regen or focus+cloak or cel+silence really be unbalanced? I don't think so, i think it would just open new tactics for the aliens since they are so locked into the riged system we have now (whereas marines have many more options open to them regaurding where to expand and how to equip themselves).
These combos may also help 2nd hive skulks be worthwhile compared to fades. They really get nothing at hive 2 except the ability to jump farther and respawn faster. All other aliens get a really nice boost (bile great for buildings, but needs to use less energy!, metabolize great for fade, lerk gets umbra, onos gets stomp).
At level 1 hive, you can build all 3 chambers, but only get one upgrade. At 2 hives, you can get 2 upgrades, and at 3 hives, you get 3 upgrades. This would make placing the different chambers more viable.
Above that, i'd suggest allowing aliens to choose ANY 3 upgrades, not just 1 per chamber. I guess this was done for balance reasons? But it really restricts tactics. I really love playing skulk in combat because you can get cloak+focus+silence all together. Would a carpace+regen or focus+cloak or cel+silence really be unbalanced? I don't think so, i think it would just open new tactics for the aliens since they are so locked into the riged system we have now (whereas marines have many more options open to them regaurding where to expand and how to equip themselves).
These combos may also help 2nd hive skulks be worthwhile compared to fades. They really get nothing at hive 2 except the ability to jump farther and respawn faster. All other aliens get a really nice boost (bile great for buildings, but needs to use less energy!, metabolize great for fade, lerk gets umbra, onos gets stomp).
Comments
Imagine DMS right out side of marine spawn....now add a lerk in, cloaked, healing, and sporing the rines to death....not a good thing for lvl 0 rines to have to go up against.
You idea is interesting, however IMHO it isn't the upgrades that are the problem with your idea, but the bonus's that each of the chambers give for aliens in an area.
As far as multiple upgrades, it has been talked about before in I&S...some good ideas, you might want to go do a search and check them out.
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Imagine DMS right out side of marine spawn....now add a lerk in, cloaked, healing, and sporing the rines to death....not a good thing for lvl 0 rines to have to go up against.
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While a semi-valid concern, I wouldn't think you'd see this often. This about the amount of resource investment this would require. To set up an effective station with that setup, you'd need 3 DC's, a SC, 2-3 MC's, and 2-4 OC's to protect it.
Thats anywhere between 60-100 res, a big investement for a single alien. And not achiveable very early, early, or even mid game. If the marines still have Level 0 armor/weapons/no advanced armory by the time a single gorge could afford to create such an outpost, well they deserve to lose.
I would like to TRY this, and see how it goes. On the surface it sounds unbalancing, but I think it would be evened out by the large res cost it would take to do it.
Think of how long it sometimes takes just to get the first X3 chamber up. Now multiple that by 3. Loooooong time to get them all up.
I believe it's been dismissed as it doesn't offer any advantages over the curret system we have now.
Ask yourself why people choose D chambers? It's either for the carapace (skulk), or regeneration.(lerk/fade/onos) Redemption is not really used very much at hive one/two since it is tied to hives and will be hit and miss if you have less than 3 hives.
So the only way to break the DMS cycle is to remove the advantages that the D chamber provides in the early game, and apply it directly to aliens in a way that is sustainable and can be balanced.
In my opinion that means ripping carapace OFF the D chamber completely. Make it so that carapace becomes a hive function (as it is in part now) and so an aliens armor level would be determined based on the number of hives the aliens have, and not by carapace. With that done we can rebalance the alien armour (if necessary) to assure that it is balanced. Since there would be no way to enhance alien armour, there is no nerf to nerf the early game alien to death because of it.
I'd also like to see regeneration removed from the D chamber and added to aliens directly. Again, this would be tied to hives, and would increase in effectiveness with the number of active hives. One hive equals one regen level.
Now we can change redemption back to what it was before it was nerfed, and make it dependant on chambers and not hives. Then add a couple more moderately decent D chaber abilities. I could name suggestions, but it's not important. The idea is that on their own these new abilities would NOT be so good that aliens would consider them a 'must' have. Make them like Movement chamber abilities, good, but not TOO good.
Right now the D chamber abilities are a must for first chamber on public servers because of the repeated nerfing of aliens. The only way out is to remove them and give the aliens something static that can be balanced in a controlled fashion (throught he number of hives) instead of based on whether or not it can appear at the beginning of the game.
Regards,
Savant
I believe it's been dismissed as it doesn't offer any advantages over the curret system we have now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember similer discussions, but the problem this is solving is exactly the riged broken "you must do this or lose" type strategy. Where's the choice of strategy the marines have? They get different options such as JP rushing, seiging, HA trains, or mass shotguns and small squads.
What do aliens get? Skulk/die/sulk/die/skulk/die until you get enough res to go fade/onos and charge an outpost. And on top of that, they have this riged *you can only choose this upgrade path and even then only 1 from each chamber.* Just seems to make very static predictable aliens. Only difference is some people go with regen insted of carapace depending on availibility of gorge/def chambers. Other than that all lerks get adren, all onos get celarity.
Just seems like being able to mix and match would be better than the limited choices you have now.
I personally would like to see upgrades cost 0 res, and possibly shortened in gest time to maybe half what they are now. Both of these things only really affect skulks, and currently many skulks simply skip upgrades in favor of saving res. Combined with a fix of the high-evolution D chamber dependency, this would really encourage pubbers to take Movement and Sensory which both feature very skulk-friendly upgrades.
I think it would be an interesting experiment to try but I think the idea would inevitably require a rethink on the upgrades available for each chamber.
The Aliens are a restricted race. They have but a very limited number of strategic options. Coupled with the fact that only ONE chamber is truly feasible, you have a gameplay style that not only is completly linear but also overly predictable.
Efforts have been made to remove this linear style of play ever since 1.04. The removal of JP/HMG rushes and allowing multiple lifeforms all are a step in the correct direction. Nonetheless, more must be done.
To allow for more dynamic gameplay, DMS <b>has</b> to go. This has been discussed since the days of NS v1.1, but surprisingly after so many changlogs DMS is still the most viable option. Clearly, something is wrong. I think Savant has singled out the problem. DCs are the lifeblood of the aliens. Therefore, the outright removal of some of its components that are so essential to the survival of aliens and tying them to the hive system instead should solve the DMS problem.
I will say that in clan play the two chambers of choice right now seem to be defense/sensory.
I think it's only a matter of time before pubbers learn how good sensory can be, because of the focus fade.
carapece and regeneration should definetly be tied to hive. as of now defense simply has to be the first chamber. and dms is going to be an always on pub servers.
ideas for two replacement defense upgrades, im sure can be found somewhere in the S&I forums. hehe.
another problem with aliens is that they must have entire control of the map to get the most out of their upgrades. marines don't. but i don't think that is a problem that can be easily solved. other than possibly giving bonuses to aliens based on hives and rts. a new variable does need to be added to the hive system.