To answer the steam question. Will NS become an offical Steam game updated with the Steam platform? I recall that during the intial switch to steam. While Flayra was working to make NS run propperly on the new platform. During this time he personally told the playtester staff that NS would become a Steam supported game, and no longer be just a third party mod. This information is many many months old now, but I'm sure it will still be part of NS future. No timeframe was given, or implyed when we were told this.
Strait from the horses mouth, so to speak. I belive that the answer is yes. If I were a betting man I would guess that this will happen sometime after NS 3.0 is officaly released.
Now on the next hard to answer question when will NS 3.0 be finished and released?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now on the next hard to answer question when will NS 3.0 be finished and released?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When it's ready.
<!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Mar 15 2004, 07:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Mar 15 2004, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now on the next hard to answer question when will NS 3.0 be finished and released?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When it's ready. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> owned.
But anyways. NS 3.0 final may never come out in all honesty... but as for it being an "official" steam game--well I do agree that Flayra said he will work towards that as a goal. But as anyone knows... if you go to the unknownworlds website, it is clearly stated that NS is working towards becoming retail, like boxed CS for example. But it will ALWAYS remain free, so be happy, and have fun with the game <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-(KCSA) Robert Paulson+Mar 15 2004, 07:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((KCSA) Robert Paulson @ Mar 15 2004, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My personal opinion on this.
The somewhat slow development cycle.
I am not complaining, however when 1.04 was out and they were working on 1.1, I lost interest in playing 1.04 because I wanted to play with all the changes they were making for 1.1. Especially since they were posting all of the changes being made.
I stopped playing NS for a while, until 2.0 came out, then I started back up again. Then it started again, the waiting for the next patch, waiting for the next change, the balance fix's, etc... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally, I think the reason is the fact that the game is lacking in depth. Sure, there's loads of cool upgrades and a lot of abilities. But they are balanced in a way that means that one will always beat the other, and ultimately one way of playing the game will triumph. It happened in 1.0x, and it has happened in 2.0. That way, the only way to change the flow of the game is to change on the game, meaning that only new patches bring new gameplay into the game, and that's not enough. Looking at most of the popular games throughout time, you will see that people still argue about the best strategies and still disagree about the best opening moves. In NS, there's not room for that, because there's not enough depth.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
Regarding PR, that Rob was talking about..
He's dead on.. I used to work for a software company who would release roadmaps of all the new features coming to the product, but not update when or give information to keep people interested.
With new games being released every day, I know lots of people who have taken "breaks" from NS to try something new.
Some come back, others forget about NS over time.
I showed someone who hadn't played NS since 1.1 was being talked about , I showed them combat, and they were intrigued that more people weren't talking in the gaming community at large about this...
But even at the best of times the PR dept. was never great about updating the website/screenies etc until 2 weeks before release (Sorry MonsE, I still <3 u), really a game still in development or in flux needs a more dynamic presence not only on the web but in their interaction with the gaming community...
I'm not suggesting responding to every thread, but perhaps a note once a week that simply says that Flayra's been reading the posts with interest and that things are progressing.. etc etc..
This is true of any game. Everyone knows all the strats and where to go, all that its up to is individual skill. This leads to predictable games. What you seem to be picking up on is a lack of depth due mainly to the hl engine. If ns had more room to expand ive no doubt that we would see more tech and counter tech pairs. Aside from this all games but most especially ns due to its inovation always lose something as you come to understand them. Those first few games on the first version were an unforgetable experience you have no idea what is going to happen..i didn't even know what the aliens looked like so it was a complete shock to get ripped apart or hear the pitter patter of claws. There is really no way you can recapture this. As for reintroducing the new into the normal game were going to need a new engine, becuase the only way i can think of doing this is to allow the players to significantly alter the map and therefore the gameplay on the fly. In current ns, as the map is fixed we get phase gates and the choice between jp and HA. In current ns these do not produce a complete revolution in playing style, as they perhaps should. This is partially a result of the turret factory and seige taking combat away from the players...defending a tf and seige in alot of cases does not take alot of skill..merely resources, teamwork and therefore firepower. Building bases and defending them in order to seige completely relies on the design of the map to make this fair for both teams. Turret factories and phase gates are just not fun to attack at all, players are, however aliens are far to weak to actually go toe to toe with marines in the prescence of turrets, and thus have to basically camp the phasegate, thus no combat between players. In short, possibly make more direct combat between players, instead of player vs turrets. This is what makes combat such a blast to play. In an ideal situation the marines should have a variety of completely different strategys to attack, with the aliens having to select the appropriate counter for each. The current form of ns classic is perhaps the best that can be done in halflife but the exploration of unkown maps and surprises are gone, leaving behind tech trees that are just not varied or broad enough.
Only an actual survey of players can really answer this question, but I think there are a number of reasons for the smaller numbers.
First off is the slippery slope. I don't care what side of the balance debate you are on, (IE, which team is stronger) but if the game repeatedly reaches a point where you feel the game is lost but are still forced to play, then <b>IT IS NOT FUN</b>. When it is not fun, why play?
While people may say they don't like combat, you have to admit there is never really a time where you reach a point where you have lost but are forced to play. When you know you have lost the game usualy ends within a minute.
Right now I tend to think marines (in classic) are the stronger/funner team for many reasons: -Most people line up at the marine join door -Most games have 1-2 more marines on a consistent basis -Most games see aliens leave when marines achieve a certain objective -Most games see aliens playing a game they know they will lose
I know personally I can play game after game as marines, but I can only stand to play a couple games as aliens since it is so broken that it's no fun anymore. However, even if you think the opposite, the same concerns apply.
The reason the game has gotten this way is because people have spent too much time nerfing the alien team. I could never understand why people don't suggest a BEEF to the marines if they feel they are weak. Now the balance is so fragile, any small aspect can make the game unplayable.
-Aliens drop the 'wrong' chamber first? Game over -Aliens don't work as a single unit? Game over -Aliens let marines get the double node? Game over -Aliens let marines secure two hives? Game over
While similar situations can happen to marines (a bad comm can easily ruin a game) the marine team is far more forgiving to mistakes than the alien team is. You can often recover from a botched relocation or failed marine rush, but on aliens if they make one of the above mistakes it can be fatal and non-recoverable.
If the game is not fun to play, people won't play it. End of story. They'll speak with their feet and they HAVE spoken with their feet. Player numbers are down across the board.
In the end it's Flayra that will decide the fate of NS by how he balances it.
I agree wholeheartedly. We can all sit around and say how incredibly "unbalanced" it may seem, but maybe some people who say that are fresh off a bad game of NS they just played. In the end, it truly is Flayra's choice, and so far he's done a hell of a job in keeping things interesting and fun. I know that even if teams are unbalanced or whatever, NS is still a hell of a lot of fun.
As for NS going "big time"? Well that's another choice Flay will have to make, and so far he's done a good job once again in the "right decisions" department. When the time comes, the issue will be addressed.
<!--QuoteBegin-xect Posted on Mar 16 2004+ 10:31 AM --></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xect Posted on Mar 16 2004 @ 10:31 AM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I think the reason is the fact that the game is lacking in depth. Sure, there's loads of cool upgrades and a lot of abilities. But they are balanced in a way that means that one will always beat the other, and ultimately one way of playing the game will triumph. It happened in 1.0x, and it has happened in 2.0. That way, the only way to change the flow of the game is to change on the game, meaning that only new patches bring new gameplay into the game, and that's not enough. Looking at most of the popular games throughout time, you will see that people still argue about the best strategies and still disagree about the best opening moves. In NS, there's not room for that, because there's not enough depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very valid thoughts, but an overwhelming task.
I would love to see some more posts on the main website about what is next, where we are at, and what are the plans. I understand the devs have lives, I just want some substance with this meat called NS I have been chewing on for over a year.
It realy just comes down to this. 1st. Natural Selection Is not New Player freindly as most of the newer games out there. 2nd. A few disruptive players can completely screw a team over. 3rd. The HL engine only can Support so much. 4th. Generaly One good person cannot win the game 5th. Its more a Strategy Game than a FPS
1st. A natural Selection Single Player Tutorial, With Bots it would help. Till it brings the Player consious to NS style of Playing. 2nd. The disruptive Players are hard to adress and it realy comes down to the server you play on. I play on WarmFuzzyLand.com server. where I know most of the admins with proper coverage. Honestly, Theres alot of team work going on. Usualy. also the H20 server is nice to cause it makes it so all teams go random The server and teh Server Enviorment Change the Game alot as well. 3rd. The only way to change this problem is to get a new engine, which im sure is already being divoloped or NS getting into HL2 engine. (maybe the Doom3, theres a ton being release anyways) 4th. In CS, one good person can win the game. This is usualy not the case, One good person can help alot. but sometimes and usualy not enough to swing a bad team out. 5th. CO is more of a FPS. but I still like Classic 8 billion times better. I love Strategy. Even now I still think of multiple stratigies when I comm, or play alian. If you realy want to get into the strategy Part, you should join a clan.
NS=Teamwork Teamwork comes from humans Humans=Random people, whos minds are still not understood inturn. NS nature relises on Human Nature Thus bringing alot of chaos to the game.
In all reality the enjoyment of the game is more based on the players (and servers) in NS because of its advanced team work. Just because you get the most kills on a team doesn't mean you win in classic. IN CS its simple. If you can kill one person before you die. Youved help you team. if you can kill 2. Your doing Great. (pub wise) Also I think the resion why less people are playing Ns right now cause Video games I belive should be going down a little bit. People decide to stop. etc. its realy completly random.
Comments
Strait from the horses mouth, so to speak. I belive that the answer is yes. If I were a betting man I would guess that this will happen sometime after NS 3.0 is officaly released.
Now on the next hard to answer question when will NS 3.0 be finished and released?
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
When it's ready.
When it's ready. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
owned.
But anyways. NS 3.0 final may never come out in all honesty... but as for it being an "official" steam game--well I do agree that Flayra said he will work towards that as a goal. But as anyone knows... if you go to the unknownworlds website, it is clearly stated that NS is working towards becoming retail, like boxed CS for example. But it will ALWAYS remain free, so be happy, and have fun with the game <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Is he going to modify the new HL 2 engine and make a "original HL2 mod" or make hi own engine(gasp)?
The somewhat slow development cycle.
I am not complaining, however when 1.04 was out and they were working on 1.1, I lost interest in playing 1.04 because I wanted to play with all the changes they were making for 1.1. Especially since they were posting all of the changes being made.
I stopped playing NS for a while, until 2.0 came out, then I started back up again. Then it started again, the waiting for the next patch, waiting for the next change, the balance fix's, etc... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I think the reason is the fact that the game is lacking in depth. Sure, there's loads of cool upgrades and a lot of abilities. But they are balanced in a way that means that one will always beat the other, and ultimately one way of playing the game will triumph. It happened in 1.0x, and it has happened in 2.0. That way, the only way to change the flow of the game is to change on the game, meaning that only new patches bring new gameplay into the game, and that's not enough. Looking at most of the popular games throughout time, you will see that people still argue about the best strategies and still disagree about the best opening moves. In NS, there's not room for that, because there's not enough depth.
He's dead on.. I used to work for a software company who would release roadmaps of all the new features coming to the product, but not update when or give information to keep people interested.
With new games being released every day, I know lots of people who have taken "breaks" from NS to try something new.
Some come back, others forget about NS over time.
I showed someone who hadn't played NS since 1.1 was being talked about , I showed them combat, and they were intrigued that more people weren't talking in the gaming community at large about this...
But even at the best of times the PR dept. was never great about updating the website/screenies etc until 2 weeks before release (Sorry MonsE, I still <3 u), really a game still in development or in flux needs a more dynamic presence not only on the web but in their interaction with the gaming community...
I'm not suggesting responding to every thread, but perhaps a note once a week that simply says that Flayra's been reading the posts with interest and that things are progressing.. etc etc..
Aside from this all games but most especially ns due to its inovation always lose something as you come to understand them. Those first few games on the first version were an unforgetable experience you have no idea what is going to happen..i didn't even know what the aliens looked like so it was a complete shock to get ripped apart or hear the pitter patter of claws. There is really no way you can recapture this. As for reintroducing the new into the normal game were going to need a new engine, becuase the only way i can think of doing this is to allow the players to significantly alter the map and therefore the gameplay on the fly.
In current ns, as the map is fixed we get phase gates and the choice between jp and HA. In current ns these do not produce a complete revolution in playing style, as they perhaps should. This is partially a result of the turret factory and seige taking combat away from the players...defending a tf and seige in alot of cases does not take alot of skill..merely resources, teamwork and therefore firepower.
Building bases and defending them in order to seige completely relies on the design of the map to make this fair for both teams. Turret factories and phase gates are just not fun to attack at all, players are, however aliens are far to weak to actually go toe to toe with marines in the prescence of turrets, and thus have to basically camp the phasegate, thus no combat between players.
In short, possibly make more direct combat between players, instead of player vs turrets. This is what makes combat such a blast to play.
In an ideal situation the marines should have a variety of completely different strategys to attack, with the aliens having to select the appropriate counter for each.
The current form of ns classic is perhaps the best that can be done in halflife but the exploration of unkown maps and surprises are gone, leaving behind tech trees that are just not varied or broad enough.
First off is the slippery slope. I don't care what side of the balance debate you are on, (IE, which team is stronger) but if the game repeatedly reaches a point where you feel the game is lost but are still forced to play, then <b>IT IS NOT FUN</b>. When it is not fun, why play?
While people may say they don't like combat, you have to admit there is never really a time where you reach a point where you have lost but are forced to play. When you know you have lost the game usualy ends within a minute.
Right now I tend to think marines (in classic) are the stronger/funner team for many reasons:
-Most people line up at the marine join door
-Most games have 1-2 more marines on a consistent basis
-Most games see aliens leave when marines achieve a certain objective
-Most games see aliens playing a game they know they will lose
I know personally I can play game after game as marines, but I can only stand to play a couple games as aliens since it is so broken that it's no fun anymore. However, even if you think the opposite, the same concerns apply.
The reason the game has gotten this way is because people have spent too much time nerfing the alien team. I could never understand why people don't suggest a BEEF to the marines if they feel they are weak. Now the balance is so fragile, any small aspect can make the game unplayable.
-Aliens drop the 'wrong' chamber first? Game over
-Aliens don't work as a single unit? Game over
-Aliens let marines get the double node? Game over
-Aliens let marines secure two hives? Game over
While similar situations can happen to marines (a bad comm can easily ruin a game) the marine team is far more forgiving to mistakes than the alien team is. You can often recover from a botched relocation or failed marine rush, but on aliens if they make one of the above mistakes it can be fatal and non-recoverable.
If the game is not fun to play, people won't play it. End of story. They'll speak with their feet and they HAVE spoken with their feet. Player numbers are down across the board.
In the end it's Flayra that will decide the fate of NS by how he balances it.
Regards,
Savant
As for NS going "big time"? Well that's another choice Flay will have to make, and so far he's done a good job once again in the "right decisions" department. When the time comes, the issue will be addressed.
Very valid thoughts, but an overwhelming task.
I would love to see some more posts on the main website about what is next, where we are at, and what are the plans. I understand the devs have lives, I just want some substance with this meat called NS I have been chewing on for over a year.
1st. Natural Selection Is not New Player freindly as most of the newer games out there.
2nd. A few disruptive players can completely screw a team over.
3rd. The HL engine only can Support so much.
4th. Generaly One good person cannot win the game
5th. Its more a Strategy Game than a FPS
1st. A natural Selection Single Player Tutorial, With Bots it would help. Till it brings the Player consious to NS style of Playing.
2nd. The disruptive Players are hard to adress and it realy comes down to the server you play on. I play on WarmFuzzyLand.com server. where I know most of the admins with proper coverage. Honestly, Theres alot of team work going on. Usualy. also the H20 server is nice to cause it makes it so all teams go random
The server and teh Server Enviorment Change the Game alot as well.
3rd. The only way to change this problem is to get a new engine, which im sure is already being divoloped or NS getting into HL2 engine. (maybe the Doom3, theres a ton being release anyways)
4th. In CS, one good person can win the game. This is usualy not the case, One good person can help alot. but sometimes and usualy not enough to swing a bad team out.
5th. CO is more of a FPS. but I still like Classic 8 billion times better. I love Strategy. Even now I still think of multiple stratigies when I comm, or play alian.
If you realy want to get into the strategy Part, you should join a clan.
NS=Teamwork
Teamwork comes from humans
Humans=Random people, whos minds are still not understood
inturn. NS nature relises on Human Nature Thus bringing alot of chaos to the game.
In all reality the enjoyment of the game is more based on the players (and servers) in NS because of its advanced team work. Just because you get the most kills on a team doesn't mean you win in classic. IN CS its simple. If you can kill one person before you die. Youved help you team. if you can kill 2. Your doing Great. (pub wise)
Also I think the resion why less people are playing Ns right now cause Video games I belive should be going down a little bit. People decide to stop. etc. its realy completly random.