Big Servers Ruining Game
Ahnteis
teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Something needs to be done to limit server size to the number of players for which NS is meant to be balanced.
NS:
In normal NS, large teams lead to terrible balance. Aliens have huge disadvantages in large games, and by large, I mean anything larger then 8v8 (and that's the largest I believe any NS game should be). Because marine upgrades are universal, and because aliens don't share resources, it take a huge skill difference or a lucky rush for aliens to win in large games.
NS:C
NS:C maps are made for small numbers of players. When the numbers of players increases, the maps become clogged messes. Players are constantly blocked by other players. There is no "less used" route in larger games. 40 minute games are common and usually end when the aliens get sufficient onos to respawn faster then they can be killed.
Large games are not as fun (in the overall game, not individual battles) and lead to all kinds of balance problems (and complaints).
NS:
In normal NS, large teams lead to terrible balance. Aliens have huge disadvantages in large games, and by large, I mean anything larger then 8v8 (and that's the largest I believe any NS game should be). Because marine upgrades are universal, and because aliens don't share resources, it take a huge skill difference or a lucky rush for aliens to win in large games.
NS:C
NS:C maps are made for small numbers of players. When the numbers of players increases, the maps become clogged messes. Players are constantly blocked by other players. There is no "less used" route in larger games. 40 minute games are common and usually end when the aliens get sufficient onos to respawn faster then they can be killed.
Large games are not as fun (in the overall game, not individual battles) and lead to all kinds of balance problems (and complaints).
Comments
Just sum up the number of players in large games and sum up the number of players in small games. I will ignore games with less than 10 players because they are just a bad joke. So what you have is the majority of players is in large games. Maybe your posting is meant to be a rant because there are only few small games but limiting the number of players just because YOU don't like large games is a definite NO.
Sometimes games evolve into a direction they were maybe not meant to go but large games are very popular. If they were soo bad like some people want everybody make believe people would just not play there. But people do play there and they seem to have fun.
On the balance problems in large games. Agreed. But the solution is to balance the game for all numbers of players and not to limit the number of players.
My opinion is that small games in general arejust more fun. The problem is respawning in small games, but if you don't encounter that problem, small games are unbelievably fun.
I'd rather fix the balance issues by fixing the resource system (which is generally understood to be broken currently).
In a 15 v 15, the marines will almost always win and pretty effortlessly too might I add.
Marine upgrades are for the WHOLE TEAM. They have a SHARED RESOURCE pool.
Aliens must buy their upgrades individually. More importantly, they do NOT share resources.
SO while the marines are getting 4 res per tick as a team, the aliens are waiting 4 ticks to get 1 res (individually).
I'm not saying I like small games more because they're fun, I'm saying that large games RUIN BALANCE and although it may seem more fun to play in a large game, the lack of balance makes for VERY frustrating games in the long run and HURTS the growth of the community.
I think there should be a default cap of 20 people or so at most. Maps should keep spawn points for 32 people to allow determined admins to mod their servers if they really want, but preventing new players from forming negative opinions of the game due to ridiculously set up servers is good for the community.
Please no comments like "only clan play matters" "get better" or "your idea is stupid", it only serves to show your own ignorance.
The only reason why Flayra has attempted to balance it for smaller games has been to satisfy clan interests. The game as it stands comes off as a large game, and the map sizes along with aspects of gameplay only serve to reinforce this idea.
The problem with clan play in NS is that the number of players per team is TOTALLY ARBITRARY in nature. Just because clans play CS and other games in 6v6 teams does not mean they should force NS to comply to that format. Clans should adapt to the game, not the game adapt to the clans.
NS is a far better game (from a strict gameplay perspective) in larger games. In all of the playtesting I have done with NS (before veterans were added and going back to V1) we never did small games. All of our playtest games were large games, unless we were short on testers. Quite often we had full servers (back when we had a max limit of 24 players because of server load issues) and so some PTs would be out of luck.
Alternately, gameplay in the smaller tests just wasn't as fun. End of story.
I think we need to move away from the idea that 6v6 is the only form of acceptable match play and look more towards what is best for the GAME. Why not 8v8 in match play? Or 9v9? I've played in organized matches of that size and they're a blast.
6v6 is the 1990's way of thinking. Let's get with the times and ditch this 6v6 thinking for some better gameplay. Why not make NS unique in clanplay with larger teams? Isn't being unique what NS is all about?
Any check of a server list will show people what is popular. Even though larger games are unbalanced right now, people play them because they are a heck of a lot more fun than small games.
This seems to be a point that many people are eager to overlook.
Regards,
Savant
Now the res each alien gets is divided by the number of aliens there are which can be between 1 and 10 on most servers. Perhaps this should be limited, so they get it on a scale divided between 5 and 8...
<span style='color:yellow'><span style='color:gray'>....</span>1<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>2<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>3<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>4<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>5<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>6<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>7<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>8<span style='color:gray'>.....</span>9<span style='color:gray'>....</span>10<span style='color:gray'>...</span>11<span style='color:gray'>...</span>12<span style='color:gray'>...</span>13</span>
<span style='color:yellow'><span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.3<span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.6<span style='color:gray'>_</span>5.9<span style='color:gray'>_</span>6.2<span style='color:gray'>_</span>6.5<span style='color:gray'>_</span>6.8<span style='color:gray'>_</span>7.1<span style='color:gray'>_</span>7.4<span style='color:gray'>_</span>7.7<span style='color:gray'>_</span>8.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span>8.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span>8.0<span style='color:gray'>_</span></span>
It;s just a rough idea, and would need tweaking, but imo this would balance it quite a bit for larger and smaller games...
Problem solved.
Okay maybe that was an bad example, but what they're getting at is that it should be balanced for any amount of players playing the game in one server. That's what ideal online gaming should be, eh? I personally have alot more fun in 10+ vs 10+ games then smallers ones anyways, alien or marine. Then again, that's just me.
Sm|o||o|th's idea doesn't sound too bad either.
- Increase spawn time for aliens to a static time equivalent to current two hive spawn times. Helps Kharaa early game when they need it most in large servers.
- Increase starting res for Kharaa per player over six. (ie. 2res per player: 10 players = 33 res) Adjust it to balance. Worried about quick upgrading/gestating? Consider marine teching rate with 10 players.
<b>Savant</b>, there are other reasons it's six players per team in clan-play besides being that it's the norm. It's not even the norm. Five players per team is more common. But anyway, the more players per team the harder it becomes to establish clans and organize matches. That's not to say I wouldn't mind seeing a push to 7 players or at least experimentation.
Eg....
6 players 1 res per 2 seconds
12 players 1 res per 1.75 seconds
16 players 1 res per 1.5 seconds
I'm sure you would have to play with the numbers abit but this would really help equal the aliens out. They don't need alot more to make it even.
Or you could put back res priority to the gorges.
The only reason why Flayra has attempted to balance it for smaller games has been to satisfy clan interests. The game as it stands comes off as a large game, and the map sizes along with aspects of gameplay only serve to reinforce this idea.
The problem with clan play in NS is that the number of players per team is TOTALLY ARBITRARY in nature. Just because clans play CS and other games in 6v6 teams does not mean they should force NS to comply to that format. Clans should adapt to the game, not the game adapt to the clans.
NS is a far better game (from a strict gameplay perspective) in larger games. In all of the playtesting I have done with NS (before veterans were added and going back to V1) we never did small games. All of our playtest games were large games, unless we were short on testers. Quite often we had full servers (back when we had a max limit of 24 players because of server load issues) and so some PTs would be out of luck.
Alternately, gameplay in the smaller tests just wasn't as fun. End of story.
I think we need to move away from the idea that 6v6 is the only form of acceptable match play and look more towards what is best for the GAME. Why not 8v8 in match play? Or 9v9? I've played in organized matches of that size and they're a blast.
6v6 is the 1990's way of thinking. Let's get with the times and ditch this 6v6 thinking for some better gameplay. Why not make NS unique in clanplay with larger teams? Isn't being unique what NS is all about?
Any check of a server list will show people what is popular. Even though larger games are unbalanced right now, people play them because they are a heck of a lot more fun than small games.
This seems to be a point that many people are eager to overlook.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Savant, you may not realize this but it's not clan interests that are being satisfied.
Quite the contrary. Out of all I have read in these forums, and believe me it has been a LOT, the vets are the ones who are constantly bickering about balancing this game for larger teamsizes.
Why do you think clanners play at 6 v 6? Because we have a hidden agenda of some sort? NO! The fact is that 6 v 6 is by far the most balanced AND fun form of NS out there atm, and larger games would be done if were for the fact they weren't borked!
Almost everyone I know agree's the reason why large games suck is because of the economy. And to my knowledge the vets are the most vocal about solving this problem.
Look, from the beta forum we see <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=34136' target='_blank'>Froggeh's Idea</a>:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay I believe this would solve the problem.
If the 4sec constant were replaced by this formula 60/(2.5*numAlienPlayers) then Alien's will always get res at the same rate that currently 6 player alien teams get, which I consider to be the most balanced alien team size.
1 player alien team would get res every 24 sec
2 player alien team would get res every 12 sec
3 player alien team would get res every 8 sec
6 player alien team would get res every 4 sec
16 player alien team would get res every 1.5 sec
If anyone could verify my logic.
Note: 2.5 is derived from a single alien's res per minute on a six player team, to adjust it for a different size team see chart above. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is just one idea to solve the problem.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=41573&hl=' target='_blank'>From myself:</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets say, for arguments sake, the most balanced size of an NS game is 6v6. This is clan standard.
Now the arms lab currently (as of 2.01b) is 20/30/40. This is all fine and dandy.
Lets say the game is now 12v12. Arms lab is still 20/30/40. Anyone here see the imbalance? It?s not hard to spot out.
On larger games(8v8 or more), the arms lab is more than worth it?s cost. You upgrade all of your marines for a fraction of the cost of what buying them all equipment would be, and it?s much more effective as there are more guns that get the upgrades. In smaller games(4v4 or less), the arms lab is crap compared to outfitting your 3-4 marines with some good equipment. Arms lab will still be important in small games, however, it comes second to equipment. And the opposite is true in large games.
The Arms Lab, believe it or not, is what causes a lot of unbalancing on large and small games right now, it?s either too good or too bad. On large games, you see stalemates quite often because aliens can?t hope to compete with marines that come out of spawn that shred them to pieces easily, even with an LMG, as there is such a high volume of it all. That is why large games almost never end early, as marines get their arms lab upgrades for too good of a cost, and they get them all very quickly, resulting in marines that generally cannot do well on attack, but pretty much own on defense, forcing aliens to get their third hive for some uber powerful abilities (or if the aliens chose sensory first so they can get Def or Move chambers).
So, the fix for the arms lab is to make it proportional to the amount of marines playing.
For 6 marines, the cost is 20/30/40.
For 12 marines, you have double the marines, and thus, the upgrades should cost 40/60/80.
For 3 marines, you have half the marines, and thus, the upgrades should cost 10/15/20.
However, just by looking at the numbers presented here I?m sure all the commanders must be dropping their Jaw?s onto the floor screaming: ?NO WAY! 40 res for the first set of upgrades? TOO MUCH!? Or? ?10 res on a 3 man server? It?s practically free ffs!? And, for the most part, they are right.
So, a small modification to the above said proposal: Only add/subtract 50% additional cost for every 100% increase/decrease in marines.
12 marines: 30/45/60
3 marines: 15/23/30
This is a formula that needs to be calculated, one that figures out the cost of the arms labs upgrades based on how many marines there are.
An easy way to calculate the costs of these upgrades if you are without a calculator is:
For every 3 marines lost/gained over 6, add/subtract 5 res for the first upgrade, add/subtract 7 res for the second upgrade, and add/subtract 10 res for the third upgrade.
Very simple, and this would balance out the arms lab completely, no matter the teamsize.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind this needs to be done to all universal upgrades, and not just the arms lab.
So remember kiddies, next time you hear this crap that vets don't care about large games... or that not enough attention is being given to large/small games...
Just remember that **some** of us have been looking for a solution to this problem, and for a VERY long time now.
k thx
This is easily fixed; you just make it so if people leave it automatically adjusts itself by one 1 res every 5 seconds to meet the new cost of the upgrade for the new teamsize.
Respawning costing res is also unlikely to be implemented, as the devs must have removed "marines' respawn costing 1 res"(pre 1.04?) for some reason.
I agree with the original poster.. too many players leds to disorganized games that are hardly ever epic and is usually in the rines favor... There should be a cap at 20 players (gotta give room for specs) and if a server complains "what do i do w/ extra bandwith?" well then run two servers on same comp w/ different ports
Respawning costing res is also unlikely to be implemented, as the devs must have removed "marines' respawn costing 1 res"(pre 1.04?) for some reason. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true.
The thing is that when it is a 5v5, aliens are getting res at a faster rate than they are at a 10v10, so even by the time more people join aliens will have already benifitted from a faster res system.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly I remain unconvinced that simply modifying alien res based on team size is going to fix the balance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, this is why you change the marine's upgrade system... either you speed up the alien's res system or you slow down the marine's universal upgrade system.
I think I'll second that.
woot.
instead of attacking the "realism" by changing the income of res towers depending on player size (why the hell should ressources flow faster when there are more aliens.. some kind of cognitive super uber telepathic "force" of alien minds stimulating the res towers to pump faster.. ah.. yeah !)
my suggestion:
some percentage of the "income" of a res tower doesn't flow to ALL aliens (one after the other) but remains in the bag of the res tower as some jealous liquid (or whatever)
so the res towers accumulate res(just let's say .. half of the res harvested; max res accumulated pretty high.. if a skulk can accumulate 100 res, a res tower should be able to accumulate at least 500), and the aliens can "leech" it like rines build things..(lets say only 2 aliens at one time or so..) they have to stand still, they can't attack, but it allows a uneven res distribution..
this will have minor/major impact on gameplay easily depending on the percentage the res towers keep for themselves:
- res towers will be more important for aliens, letting the rines kill them can really hurt(loosing all the res harvested.. could be somewhat countered by letting the res towers getting more health depending on the res inside) BUT
- aliens get the advantage of more tactics, esp. getting hive up quicker (which is bad I think, but increasing hive cost would fix it), but also rewarding gorges on publics(as they can directly leech..)
the really good thing:
the 6vs6 game balance shouldn't get bashed THAT much (IMHO ).. each player having "his" res tower(as the aliens often have more res towers) is the same.. just running back to the res towers means the aliens loose some of their moblity, but an alien often only needs res at the time it wants to gestate(2 res for upgrades be no prob as there is still res distribution), and for that it searchs a safe place, so running back to the res tower (esp. as a skulk) shouldn't be that much of a pain and maybe gives some additional tactics bout the res tower placing..
BUT in the.. 12+vs 12+ games the aliens would REALLY benefit here, as you see.. just assuming the aliens play in a team (they have to play in a team NOW really hard to defeat the marines, and aliens not playing in a team don't deserve to win..) they could now get individual tactics.. at least really increasing the chance to defeat the marines in large games if they do it right..
and that is what it's all about : not that on every public server all aliens get more res depending on player numbers; but giving the aliens the possiblity to increase their chances if they play as a team
oh god, flame me..