ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
/me ponders...
I have been playing a different aproach to CO for the last few dayS (normaly I am the gorge webbing all of you silly riens, or the rine who has all of the back up and just sits next to the CC defending/webing/mining/scaning etc)
So Instead I have been playing assault.
A few quick findings: 1) JP should DEFINATLY stay at 2 (otherwise you can easily get lvl 3 weps, a JP, and some other stuff 2) HA is qustionable at 2, though personaly I like it there (so long as the aliens keep their higher forms at 2 also).
Basicaly, everytihng would need to be lowered back down to one if you took down HA, even with out pople ever welding that extra DMG soak is VERY nice.
HA are basicaly what make late game skulks pointles, and thus force the aliens to switch to oni/fades.
Focus becomes a poorly spent level when HA come into the game. Xeno only sorta weakens HA (as an HA I tend to sorta be the one who lives to hold off the aliens after the skulks xeno us).
All in all, personaly I think they are balanced. If they were knocked back down to 1, I think things would just get sorta anoying with the early JP rushes and stuff like that.
The nice thing about branching 1-point HA off of armor3 is that it doesn't show up any earlier in the game. It still takes 4 total levels to get HA, it would just then include armor3 with it. I think that would be very balanced and not upset the balances of other upgrade paths noticeably.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 5 2004, 04:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 5 2004, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jetpacks aren't the best for fighting prowless, no, it's good for speed, so you can match the alien's rate of movement. That is the main and foremost advantage to a jetpack. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is exactly why I say jetpacks are overpowered. Like motion tracking, it gives the marines an advantage over the aliens that they <b>simply should not have</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 6 2004, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 6 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 5 2004, 04:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 5 2004, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jetpacks aren't the best for fighting prowless, no, it's good for speed, so you can match the alien's rate of movement. That is the main and foremost advantage to a jetpack. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is exactly why I say jetpacks are overpowered. Like motion tracking, it gives the marines an advantage over the aliens that they <b>simply should not have</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And why?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like motion tracking, it gives the marines an advantage over the aliens that they simply should not have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-rsd+Mar 8 2004, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rsd @ Mar 8 2004, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like motion tracking, it gives the marines an advantage over the aliens that they simply should not have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scent of Fear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To answer forlorn's questoin as well: Aliens need to rely on stealth and ambushes. Because claws don't fly across the room and kill things for you, you have to live long enough to get in range to use them. The best way is ambushing from the shadows. Marines don't. Scent of Fear "removes" an "advantage" they really don't need to use to begin with. Of course, marines have the advantage concerning shadows to begin with considering the terrible design decisions concerning flashlights, but SOF at least gives the Alien SOME protection in that regard. Marines are slow. They're noisy. They're big fat and ugly. They can't hide on wall, in ceilings. They're not meant to spring out of vents. Aliens are. Motion tracking points out to every marine where alien ambushes are (Unless said alien has been sitting in that spot, not moving, for the past minutes hoping a marine comes through). But everything I've seen, most ambushes are organized, or planned, roughly on the spot. When marines get a 'cloak suit', then sure, SoF will be overpowered. But why don't marines have a cloak suit? Because every post in I&S about a cloak suit is locked on the note that: Marines are NOT MEANT TO BE STEALTHY.
Likewise, Jetpacks are overpowered because they give marines the advantage of mobility. Lacking ranged weapons, the only three effective counters to a jetpack is:
1) A good lerk.
2) Webs
3) Loads of OCs
The last two aren't very feasible options for a 'counter' throughout most of the game, and keep in mind, web has a very dippyass limit on it as well. Jetpacks (And most notably in combat) remove the marines' dependance on teamwork, small unit tactics, and survivability. What is the single most crippling feature of marines? Their movement speed. They get guns. It slows them down. They get ammo. It slows them down. They get a waypoint on the other side of the map. It's a long road fraught with danger, because it takes them so long. Jetpacks are simply a terrible idea for "balance": Allow the marines to move faster then every alien save one, navigate vents with no problem (So called areas for aliens only), fly past defenses, and put the third dimension into their range advantage. How many combat games end with a group of marines fighting their way to the hive and blowing it down? Now compare it to the number of combat games that end with a suicidal jetpacker able to fly past all the aliens, zoom into the hive, unload grenades into it, die, respawn, etc. The problem is just as present in Classic NS.
Like siege, jetpacks are simply a way to give a marine team a chance at winning a match they're outskilled in. If you can't fight your way into the hive on foot, for all the skulks and onos around, send in jetpackers with shotguns: They can simply buzz past the skulks and such. If they die, just camp on the other side of a wall and blow it to hell. In both cases, the jetpack and siege are crutches that can give an unfair edge by overcoming their shortfalls. Now unless you're going to let onos respawn as onos when they die, no team should ever have a 'feature' that rewards weakness.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 8 2004, 06:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 8 2004, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rsd+Mar 8 2004, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rsd @ Mar 8 2004, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like motion tracking, it gives the marines an advantage over the aliens that they simply should not have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scent of Fear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To answer forlorn's questoin as well: Aliens need to rely on stealth and ambushes. Because claws don't fly across the room and kill things for you, you have to live long enough to get in range to use them. The best way is ambushing from the shadows. Marines don't. Scent of Fear "removes" an "advantage" they really don't need to use to begin with. Of course, marines have the advantage concerning shadows to begin with considering the terrible design decisions concerning flashlights, but SOF at least gives the Alien SOME protection in that regard. Marines are slow. They're noisy. They're big fat and ugly. They can't hide on wall, in ceilings. They're not meant to spring out of vents. Aliens are. Motion tracking points out to every marine where alien ambushes are (Unless said alien has been sitting in that spot, not moving, for the past minutes hoping a marine comes through). But everything I've seen, most ambushes are organized, or planned, roughly on the spot. When marines get a 'cloak suit', then sure, SoF will be overpowered. But why don't marines have a cloak suit? Because every post in I&S about a cloak suit is locked on the note that: Marines are NOT MEANT TO BE STEALTHY.
Likewise, Jetpacks are overpowered because they give marines the advantage of mobility. Lacking ranged weapons, the only three effective counters to a jetpack is:
1) A good lerk.
2) Webs
3) Loads of OCs
The last two aren't very feasible options for a 'counter' throughout most of the game, and keep in mind, web has a very dippyass limit on it as well. Jetpacks (And most notably in combat) remove the marines' dependance on teamwork, small unit tactics, and survivability. What is the single most crippling feature of marines? Their movement speed. They get guns. It slows them down. They get ammo. It slows them down. They get a waypoint on the other side of the map. It's a long road fraught with danger, because it takes them so long. Jetpacks are simply a terrible idea for "balance": Allow the marines to move faster then every alien save one, navigate vents with no problem (So called areas for aliens only), fly past defenses, and put the third dimension into their range advantage. How many combat games end with a group of marines fighting their way to the hive and blowing it down? Now compare it to the number of combat games that end with a suicidal jetpacker able to fly past all the aliens, zoom into the hive, unload grenades into it, die, respawn, etc. The problem is just as present in Classic NS.
Like siege, jetpacks are simply a way to give a marine team a chance at winning a match they're outskilled in. If you can't fight your way into the hive on foot, for all the skulks and onos around, send in jetpackers with shotguns: They can simply buzz past the skulks and such. If they die, just camp on the other side of a wall and blow it to hell. In both cases, the jetpack and siege are crutches that can give an unfair edge by overcoming their shortfalls. Now unless you're going to let onos respawn as onos when they die, no team should ever have a 'feature' that rewards weakness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No offense, but this is rediculous. Covering up for weaknesses is something both sides can do.
Aliens are fast and deal lots of damage, but take little damage. Enter the onos and fade.
Marines are normally slow, take little damage, and deal lots of incremental damage. Enter the jetpack. Enter the HA.
Both sides can cover up for their weaknesses well.
Killing JP's in classic:
OC's (brutually effective)
Lerks (spores, bite)
Fades
Leaping skulks
Onos blocking small hallways
JP's going in vents is also risky. They are completely vulerable to any alien in there while very little hope of 'flying by' it. Also, no where does it say vents are alien only or alien specialized?
Jetpacks make the game much more interesting in my eyes.
I don't find them that hard to kill 1v1 if I'm a lerk/fade, and I don't find them even easier to kill if they are in the hive.
The reason marines have seige is because attacking aliens in their hive room puts the marines at a <b>severe</b> disadvantage.
If you were to read the manual or mapping guideliens or the vision for NS, part of what entails for the marines is that they can take a situation and mold it to how they need it. That is why marines are the ones who weld vents, and that is why marines have seige - to take the advantage out of the alien's hands and put it into yours.
The whole idea of NS is having these two unique classes who are continually fighting for the advantage is the entire theme of NS.
Of course Jetpacks can be unfair. They are meant to be.
What you people are saying is that it should be bought down because it requires too much teamwork, and it's rarely seen. This isn't a case of upgrade effectiveness, but team skill. When you suggest things like this, the five people that actually do what's intended in the first place get a huge boost and totally crush the opposition, thus making imbalance. The reason HAs are so slow is because they take a rediculously long time to kill. Bringing them down to one point is room for another upgrade, and after what they're already at, if they choose right, it would make them rediculously strong.
Though I would branch HA off of Armor 3 if this does happen. That's a pretty good idea.
[EDIT] Woah, just read the first page. I agree with Eek. Forlorn, when you say that putting the Marines in the Aliens hive is a sevre disadvantage... Of course it is, it's their base. It's what keeps them alive. You shouldn't be able to cruise through it like Jetpackers can. Aliens can't just run in and fly around a Marine base and kill it. Nor can they just camp on one side of a wall and watch the CC and IP explode. These weren't as much of a problem as they are now because the Aliens had a counter - they were just stronger. Plain out, the Aliens were physically stronger than most Marines could ever be, and when the Marines were as strong, they were no where near as moblie. Now, the Marines can be physically equal, but they can also use stratigies that Aliens can't touch and totally crush them. Why were sieges so risky? You sent a few Marines out and hoped they lived long enough to build everything. Now, if the Aliens attack, Marines can just fly out of the way and slaughter the Aliens with a jetpack. It just ain't right, with the current situation, there'd be no story to NS. The Kharaa would've stopped attacking long ago.
But this only relates to pub games... On pugs/scrims/matches, when the Aliens use teamwork, the game is almost balanced (the Marines have a small advantage), from what I've experienced. [/EDIT]
Comments
I have been playing a different aproach to CO for the last few dayS (normaly I am the gorge webbing all of you silly riens, or the rine who has all of the back up and just sits next to the CC defending/webing/mining/scaning etc)
So Instead I have been playing assault.
A few quick findings:
1) JP should DEFINATLY stay at 2 (otherwise you can easily get lvl 3 weps, a JP, and some other stuff
2) HA is qustionable at 2, though personaly I like it there (so long as the aliens keep their higher forms at 2 also).
Basicaly, everytihng would need to be lowered back down to one if you took down HA, even with out pople ever welding that extra DMG soak is VERY nice.
HA are basicaly what make late game skulks pointles, and thus force the aliens to switch to oni/fades.
Focus becomes a poorly spent level when HA come into the game.
Xeno only sorta weakens HA (as an HA I tend to sorta be the one who lives to hold off the aliens after the skulks xeno us).
All in all, personaly I think they are balanced. If they were knocked back down to 1, I think things would just get sorta anoying with the early JP rushes and stuff like that.
This is exactly why I say jetpacks are overpowered. Like motion tracking, it gives the marines an advantage over the aliens that they <b>simply should not have</b>.
- Force an investment in armor 3, bring HA to 1 point
- Bring HA to one point, leave tree alone
This is exactly why I say jetpacks are overpowered. Like motion tracking, it gives the marines an advantage over the aliens that they <b>simply should not have</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And why?
Scent of Fear.
Scent of Fear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer forlorn's questoin as well: Aliens need to rely on stealth and ambushes. Because claws don't fly across the room and kill things for you, you have to live long enough to get in range to use them. The best way is ambushing from the shadows. Marines don't. Scent of Fear "removes" an "advantage" they really don't need to use to begin with. Of course, marines have the advantage concerning shadows to begin with considering the terrible design decisions concerning flashlights, but SOF at least gives the Alien SOME protection in that regard. Marines are slow. They're noisy. They're big fat and ugly. They can't hide on wall, in ceilings. They're not meant to spring out of vents. Aliens are. Motion tracking points out to every marine where alien ambushes are (Unless said alien has been sitting in that spot, not moving, for the past minutes hoping a marine comes through). But everything I've seen, most ambushes are organized, or planned, roughly on the spot. When marines get a 'cloak suit', then sure, SoF will be overpowered. But why don't marines have a cloak suit? Because every post in I&S about a cloak suit is locked on the note that: Marines are NOT MEANT TO BE STEALTHY.
Likewise, Jetpacks are overpowered because they give marines the advantage of mobility. Lacking ranged weapons, the only three effective counters to a jetpack is:
1) A good lerk.
2) Webs
3) Loads of OCs
The last two aren't very feasible options for a 'counter' throughout most of the game, and keep in mind, web has a very dippyass limit on it as well. Jetpacks (And most notably in combat) remove the marines' dependance on teamwork, small unit tactics, and survivability. What is the single most crippling feature of marines? Their movement speed. They get guns. It slows them down. They get ammo. It slows them down. They get a waypoint on the other side of the map. It's a long road fraught with danger, because it takes them so long. Jetpacks are simply a terrible idea for "balance": Allow the marines to move faster then every alien save one, navigate vents with no problem (So called areas for aliens only), fly past defenses, and put the third dimension into their range advantage. How many combat games end with a group of marines fighting their way to the hive and blowing it down? Now compare it to the number of combat games that end with a suicidal jetpacker able to fly past all the aliens, zoom into the hive, unload grenades into it, die, respawn, etc. The problem is just as present in Classic NS.
Like siege, jetpacks are simply a way to give a marine team a chance at winning a match they're outskilled in. If you can't fight your way into the hive on foot, for all the skulks and onos around, send in jetpackers with shotguns: They can simply buzz past the skulks and such. If they die, just camp on the other side of a wall and blow it to hell. In both cases, the jetpack and siege are crutches that can give an unfair edge by overcoming their shortfalls. Now unless you're going to let onos respawn as onos when they die, no team should ever have a 'feature' that rewards weakness.
Scent of Fear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer forlorn's questoin as well: Aliens need to rely on stealth and ambushes. Because claws don't fly across the room and kill things for you, you have to live long enough to get in range to use them. The best way is ambushing from the shadows. Marines don't. Scent of Fear "removes" an "advantage" they really don't need to use to begin with. Of course, marines have the advantage concerning shadows to begin with considering the terrible design decisions concerning flashlights, but SOF at least gives the Alien SOME protection in that regard. Marines are slow. They're noisy. They're big fat and ugly. They can't hide on wall, in ceilings. They're not meant to spring out of vents. Aliens are. Motion tracking points out to every marine where alien ambushes are (Unless said alien has been sitting in that spot, not moving, for the past minutes hoping a marine comes through). But everything I've seen, most ambushes are organized, or planned, roughly on the spot. When marines get a 'cloak suit', then sure, SoF will be overpowered. But why don't marines have a cloak suit? Because every post in I&S about a cloak suit is locked on the note that: Marines are NOT MEANT TO BE STEALTHY.
Likewise, Jetpacks are overpowered because they give marines the advantage of mobility. Lacking ranged weapons, the only three effective counters to a jetpack is:
1) A good lerk.
2) Webs
3) Loads of OCs
The last two aren't very feasible options for a 'counter' throughout most of the game, and keep in mind, web has a very dippyass limit on it as well. Jetpacks (And most notably in combat) remove the marines' dependance on teamwork, small unit tactics, and survivability. What is the single most crippling feature of marines? Their movement speed. They get guns. It slows them down. They get ammo. It slows them down. They get a waypoint on the other side of the map. It's a long road fraught with danger, because it takes them so long. Jetpacks are simply a terrible idea for "balance": Allow the marines to move faster then every alien save one, navigate vents with no problem (So called areas for aliens only), fly past defenses, and put the third dimension into their range advantage. How many combat games end with a group of marines fighting their way to the hive and blowing it down? Now compare it to the number of combat games that end with a suicidal jetpacker able to fly past all the aliens, zoom into the hive, unload grenades into it, die, respawn, etc. The problem is just as present in Classic NS.
Like siege, jetpacks are simply a way to give a marine team a chance at winning a match they're outskilled in. If you can't fight your way into the hive on foot, for all the skulks and onos around, send in jetpackers with shotguns: They can simply buzz past the skulks and such. If they die, just camp on the other side of a wall and blow it to hell. In both cases, the jetpack and siege are crutches that can give an unfair edge by overcoming their shortfalls. Now unless you're going to let onos respawn as onos when they die, no team should ever have a 'feature' that rewards weakness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense, but this is rediculous. Covering up for weaknesses is something both sides can do.
Aliens are fast and deal lots of damage, but take little damage. Enter the onos and fade.
Marines are normally slow, take little damage, and deal lots of incremental damage. Enter the jetpack. Enter the HA.
Both sides can cover up for their weaknesses well.
Killing JP's in classic:
OC's (brutually effective)
Lerks (spores, bite)
Fades
Leaping skulks
Onos blocking small hallways
JP's going in vents is also risky. They are completely vulerable to any alien in there while very little hope of 'flying by' it. Also, no where does it say vents are alien only or alien specialized?
Jetpacks make the game much more interesting in my eyes.
I don't find them that hard to kill 1v1 if I'm a lerk/fade, and I don't find them even easier to kill if they are in the hive.
The reason marines have seige is because attacking aliens in their hive room puts the marines at a <b>severe</b> disadvantage.
If you were to read the manual or mapping guideliens or the vision for NS, part of what entails for the marines is that they can take a situation and mold it to how they need it. That is why marines are the ones who weld vents, and that is why marines have seige - to take the advantage out of the alien's hands and put it into yours.
The whole idea of NS is having these two unique classes who are continually fighting for the advantage is the entire theme of NS.
Of course Jetpacks can be unfair. They are meant to be.
Though I would branch HA off of Armor 3 if this does happen. That's a pretty good idea.
[EDIT]
Woah, just read the first page. I agree with Eek. Forlorn, when you say that putting the Marines in the Aliens hive is a sevre disadvantage... Of course it is, it's their base. It's what keeps them alive. You shouldn't be able to cruise through it like Jetpackers can. Aliens can't just run in and fly around a Marine base and kill it. Nor can they just camp on one side of a wall and watch the CC and IP explode. These weren't as much of a problem as they are now because the Aliens had a counter - they were just stronger. Plain out, the Aliens were physically stronger than most Marines could ever be, and when the Marines were as strong, they were no where near as moblie. Now, the Marines can be physically equal, but they can also use stratigies that Aliens can't touch and totally crush them. Why were sieges so risky? You sent a few Marines out and hoped they lived long enough to build everything. Now, if the Aliens attack, Marines can just fly out of the way and slaughter the Aliens with a jetpack. It just ain't right, with the current situation, there'd be no story to NS. The Kharaa would've stopped attacking long ago.
But this only relates to pub games... On pugs/scrims/matches, when the Aliens use teamwork, the game is almost balanced (the Marines have a small advantage), from what I've experienced.
[/EDIT]