ok after a little consideration the observatory changes I listed might be too dramatic. Let me explain my reasoning, however.
Marines have Hive A fortified. As we all know, the KEY piece to a fortified hive is the phase gate. Turrets just buy the commander time. It takes approximately 15 gores from an onos to kill a phase gate. At a rate of 1.3 gores per second, that is about 11 seconds that marines have to phase to the location of the attack to chase away the onos. in 11 seconds, a marine can cover about 10 yards.
So, unless you marines are within 30 feet of a phase gate at all times, your hive can be killed by aliens and they can encounter zero resistance. This math doesn't even include the time it takes to communicate the problem of the onos, and yelling instructions to phase. I didn't include this because I will assume the commander is smart and locates the onos on motion tracking a few seconds before the attack begins.
This is why marines need higher mobility for thier fortifications. 1 alien can totally destroy a single turret-farmed-phase-gated hive in just over 10 seconds. 10 seconds is a good amount of time for a commander to twitch react, not to shout commands and expect reaction.
Another possible solution would be to remove onos doing siege-type damage which currently grants them a 100% damage bonus against structures.
So why not just beacon your marines to start, and have them phase from there? seems pretty simple. Maybe put an extra phase in each hive... sounds like a decent enough route to take in hive fortification and defense, if you can afford it...
I do that all the time. Its the best I can do as a commander to defend my hives. The problem is when I beacon, usually 90% of the marine team is just dumbfounded or shocked about how they instantly got back to marine start. Very few move, even if I am shouting instructions over voice-comm. Even if they do all listen, there is still the problem of how marines trickle through the phase gate 1 at a time, ripe for onos devouring and goring in time for the next one to come through. Phase gates just are not capable of fending off an alien attack unless they are forseen. Its much like spawn camping directly over an Infantry Portal.
"I do that all the time. Its the best I can do as a commander to defend my hives. The problem is when I beacon, usually 90% of the marine team is just dumbfounded or shocked about how they instantly got back to marine start. Very few move, even if I am shouting instructions over voice-comm. Even if they do all listen, there is still the problem of how marines trickle through the phase gate 1 at a time, ripe for onos devouring and goring in time for the next one to come through. Phase gates just are not capable of fending off an alien attack unless they are forseen. Its much like spawn camping directly over an Infantry Portal. "
You are right.. this has been a problem for a loooong time. They should have like a glass dome kinda thing when you teleport that dosn't let anything hit you when you phase and also can't shoot out it so you don't get phase killed by aliens the second you spawn in.
<!--QuoteBegin-briDge+Feb 23 2004, 07:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (briDge @ Feb 23 2004, 07:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Kharaa <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> -Fade armor decreased by 50. -Fade gains 50 less armor from Carapace upgrade. -Various Fade hitbox issues fixed -Skulks now have 50 armor after purchasing the Carapace upgrade. -Lerk base and carapace armor increased by 15 -Fade now costs 60 resources. -Onos now costs 80 resources. -Stomp range of stun capped at approximately 5 yards. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have to be joking the fade needs to be nerfed you think? There something wrong with you?re brain boy! They are easy enough to kill as it is, one on one a lv 2 weapon, shotty marine should be able to take a fade down or make it run within the 8 shots. (Assuming the person wielding the gun isn't a complete blind arse who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn)
Skulks with 50 armour would make games over in 2 seconds you say make sens and mc a viable first chamber again? This will just cement the fact the DC is better, image that I can rip 3 lv0 marines with un upgrade skulk as it is, let alone one with 50 armour. Only thing I agree with is the lerk armour
Capping stomp range is ****, that would make it effectively useless, as it is only lasts 1 - 2 seconds (Anyone quote me on this?) and having it only work 5 feet infront of the onos would just about remove it from game play as the onos would have to run right up and stomp to have any effect. And by that pint might as well take one more step and gore the ****.
Anyway in conclusion I think you play marines a lot more than you play aliens the obs you want would make marines invincible as all they would have to do is HA suit up, One JP in/near hive, drop obs, build obs, beacon obs, Wham hive down.
You obviously haven?t though your balance issues through at all.
Cheers,
Gorfob
EDIT: nee to respond to this:
Marines have Hive A fortified. As we all know, the KEY piece to a fortified hive is the phase gate. Turrets just buy the commander time. It takes approximately 15 gores from an onos to kill a phase gate. At a rate of 1.3 gores per second, that is about 11 seconds that marines have to phase to the location of the attack to chase away the onos. in 11 seconds, a marine can cover about 10 yards.
So, unless you marines are within 30 feet of a phase gate at all times, your hive can be killed by aliens and they can encounter zero resistance. This math doesn't even include the time it takes to communicate the problem of the onos, and yelling instructions to phase. I didn't include this because I will assume the commander is smart and locates the onos on motion tracking a few seconds before the attack begins.
This is why marines need higher mobility for thier fortifications. 1 alien can totally destroy a single turret-farmed-phase-gated hive in just over 10 seconds. 10 seconds is a good amount of time for a commander to twitch react, not to shout commands and expect reaction.
This makes it sound like you want to have all your marines tucked up in base waiting for orders or a beacon to defend a hive.
IT"S A WAR!!! hate to break it too you Hive is main target, hive =front lines ALWAYS HAVE PEOPLE AT THE FRONT LINE, when I comm one person at all times is to be positioned at the hives with either a shotty or HMG or GL to lay down some punishment to hold all but the most determined aliens off. While the rest of the team focus on bringing the fight to the aliens not defending from them.
Seriously does anyone think before they post something around here? Use you brains people think the pros? and con?s of everything before you make an arse of you?re self. Oh and if you think instantaneous light speed teleportation between phase gates isn?t mobile enough, what do you want to do give each marine a personal teleporter like in Unreal Tournament?
<!--QuoteBegin-Gorfob+Feb 25 2004, 07:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gorfob @ Feb 25 2004, 07:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IT"S A WAR!!! hate to break it too you Hive is main target, hive =front lines ALWAYS HAVE PEOPLE AT THE FRONT LINE, when I comm one person at all times is to be positioned at the hives with either a shotty or HMG or GL to lay down some punishment to hold all but the most determined aliens off. While the rest of the team focus on bringing the fight to the aliens not defending from them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You are the one who needs to think before posting, the front line is not the hive that is being defended, the front line is the hive which you are going on the offensive for.
Your one marine with "shotty or HMG or GL" gets devoured. Phase gate gone in 11 seconds. While you are sieging another hive, you lose the one you already captured in just over 10 seconds. In a ten player game, with 1 commander and 2 or 3 marines guarding a hive, do you honestly expect a hive siege to work when it is 6 marines versus 10 aliens? Don't count on it.
I play alien 90% of my games, because I always go random. Always.
There are no clear cut front lines. if the marines are moving from point A to point B, the aliens will forget about the line between A and B, go around, clear out everything the marines did at A, and then atack the marines from behind.
If you have a hive; expect the aliens to want it, and atack it. You should have one person at each of your hives to at least delay the atack while you get reinforcements.
The bacon is already superbly powerful - I don't think it needs anymore buffing <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
All the concerns about a observatory uberrush can be addressed, and we can have a balanced beacon-anywhere, I think, if you add a little <b>delay</b> (maybe around 5 seconds) from the commander clicking the distress beacon icon to the actual arrival of marines to the observatory.
In addition to this, you could use the existing <b>klaxon</b> and new <b>visual effects</b> (e.g. flashing red light) to assist aliens in locating the threat within the delay. To expedite a response, aliens could also get a <b>hivesight indicator</b> showing the location of the obs (or the hive it is closest to), and <b>movement chambers</b> could direct aliens to the hive closest to the beacon.
Yes these measures are somewhat contrived... but so is the little red laser dot when you nuke in StarCraft; it makes it a more fun game to play.
A few possible tweaks that would help balance issues brought up by this new application of distress beacon:<ul><li>Increase observatory health when within the build range of a turret factory: to negate the effect that the ~5 second delay will have on an effective defensive response-- I think most concerns are related to its offfensive uses anyway.</li><li>Only one distress "call" can be active at a time: so that sneaky commanders don't bait and switch two different hives right after each other. This one I think is a must.</li><li>Offense towers get a boost near a hive (?): It might be hard for aliens to defend against the whole marine team at one hive.. this could help.</li><li>Sensory towers near a beaconing observatory add time to the delay: reduce dependence on DMS.</li><li>Designate some observatories as "home observatories" (perhaps by proximity to an active command chair, as mentioned before by OG17). Home observatories don't suffer from the 5 second-lag, nor do they affect hivesight/movement chambers. This would preserve the original intent of distress beacon.</li><li>I don't know what happens with movement chambers when two hives are under attack, but the chambers should randomly choose a hive to teleport to. The same if a hive is under attack and being beaconed at the same time.</li></ul> In my opinion, the defensive uses of this feature would be most valuable: marines can defend an area without getting "spawn-camped," as with pgs now. Offensively, the phase gate would still be useful, as you have more of an element of surprise for less res.
In any case, it still is a huge risk. An clever alien team can harass an expansion with an onos or otherwise exploit the commander committing all his forces in one location.
Aliens are vulnerable enough as it is. Marines have JPs, Sieges, HAs, SGs, and GLs that can all kill hives successfully. They have enough. Aliens can either A) **** res to get an Onos to pick off the base, hoping the Onos doesn't die from lack of healing and team support (which happens all to often), or B) Bile Bomb the base, which suffers from the same problem as an Onos rush. In both cases, you're assuming that there is no Marine response. Fortified means foritified, not 4 turrets and a PG. Fortified is when there are over 15 turrets, and an elctrified TF/RT/both next to the PG. And Onos can barely Regen live with this, throw in an lvl 3 HMG, or even a Pistol, and the Onos is done.
If covering these fortifications is a problem for you, than there's also the matter of player skill balance. The game is pretty balanced as it is, if anything the Marines have a slight advantage. A good Alien team <b>CAN</b> wipe out a base, and a good Marine team <b>CAN</b> counter it. It all depends on who's better.
Comments
Marines have Hive A fortified. As we all know, the KEY piece to a fortified hive is the phase gate. Turrets just buy the commander time. It takes approximately 15 gores from an onos to kill a phase gate. At a rate of 1.3 gores per second, that is about 11 seconds that marines have to phase to the location of the attack to chase away the onos. in 11 seconds, a marine can cover about 10 yards.
So, unless you marines are within 30 feet of a phase gate at all times, your hive can be killed by aliens and they can encounter zero resistance. This math doesn't even include the time it takes to communicate the problem of the onos, and yelling instructions to phase. I didn't include this because I will assume the commander is smart and locates the onos on motion tracking a few seconds before the attack begins.
This is why marines need higher mobility for thier fortifications. 1 alien can totally destroy a single turret-farmed-phase-gated hive in just over 10 seconds. 10 seconds is a good amount of time for a commander to twitch react, not to shout commands and expect reaction.
Another possible solution would be to remove onos doing siege-type damage which currently grants them a 100% damage bonus against structures.
You are right.. this has been a problem for a loooong time. They should have like a glass dome kinda thing when you teleport that dosn't let anything hit you when you phase and also can't shoot out it so you don't get phase killed by aliens the second you spawn in.
-Fade armor decreased by 50.
-Fade gains 50 less armor from Carapace upgrade.
-Various Fade hitbox issues fixed
-Skulks now have 50 armor after purchasing the Carapace upgrade.
-Lerk base and carapace armor increased by 15
-Fade now costs 60 resources.
-Onos now costs 80 resources.
-Stomp range of stun capped at approximately 5 yards. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to be joking the fade needs to be nerfed you think? There something wrong with you?re brain boy! They are easy enough to kill as it is, one on one a lv 2 weapon, shotty marine should be able to take a fade down or make it run within the 8 shots. (Assuming the person wielding the gun isn't a complete blind arse who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn)
Skulks with 50 armour would make games over in 2 seconds you say make sens and mc a viable first chamber again? This will just cement the fact the DC is better, image that I can rip 3 lv0 marines with un upgrade skulk as it is, let alone one with 50 armour.
Only thing I agree with is the lerk armour
Capping stomp range is ****, that would make it effectively useless, as it is only lasts 1 - 2 seconds (Anyone quote me on this?) and having it only work 5 feet infront of the onos would just about remove it from game play as the onos would have to run right up and stomp to have any effect. And by that pint might as well take one more step and gore the ****.
Anyway in conclusion I think you play marines a lot more than you play aliens the obs you want would make marines invincible as all they would have to do is HA suit up, One JP in/near hive, drop obs, build obs, beacon obs, Wham hive down.
You obviously haven?t though your balance issues through at all.
Cheers,
Gorfob
EDIT: nee to respond to this:
Marines have Hive A fortified. As we all know, the KEY piece to a fortified hive is the phase gate. Turrets just buy the commander time. It takes approximately 15 gores from an onos to kill a phase gate. At a rate of 1.3 gores per second, that is about 11 seconds that marines have to phase to the location of the attack to chase away the onos. in 11 seconds, a marine can cover about 10 yards.
So, unless you marines are within 30 feet of a phase gate at all times, your hive can be killed by aliens and they can encounter zero resistance. This math doesn't even include the time it takes to communicate the problem of the onos, and yelling instructions to phase. I didn't include this because I will assume the commander is smart and locates the onos on motion tracking a few seconds before the attack begins.
This is why marines need higher mobility for thier fortifications. 1 alien can totally destroy a single turret-farmed-phase-gated hive in just over 10 seconds. 10 seconds is a good amount of time for a commander to twitch react, not to shout commands and expect reaction.
This makes it sound like you want to have all your marines tucked up in base waiting for orders or a beacon to defend a hive.
IT"S A WAR!!! hate to break it too you Hive is main target, hive =front lines ALWAYS HAVE PEOPLE AT THE FRONT LINE, when I comm one person at all times is to be positioned at the hives with either a shotty or HMG or GL to lay down some punishment to hold all but the most determined aliens off. While the rest of the team focus on bringing the fight to the aliens not defending from them.
Seriously does anyone think before they post something around here? Use you brains people think the pros? and con?s of everything before you make an arse of you?re self. Oh and if you think instantaneous light speed teleportation between phase gates isn?t mobile enough, what do you want to do give each marine a personal teleporter like in Unreal Tournament?
You are the one who needs to think before posting, the front line is not the hive that is being defended, the front line is the hive which you are going on the offensive for.
Your one marine with "shotty or HMG or GL" gets devoured. Phase gate gone in 11 seconds. While you are sieging another hive, you lose the one you already captured in just over 10 seconds. In a ten player game, with 1 commander and 2 or 3 marines guarding a hive, do you honestly expect a hive siege to work when it is 6 marines versus 10 aliens? Don't count on it.
I play alien 90% of my games, because I always go random. Always.
You need to think before you speak.
If you have a hive; expect the aliens to want it, and atack it. You should have one person at each of your hives to at least delay the atack while you get reinforcements.
In addition to this, you could use the existing <b>klaxon</b> and new <b>visual effects</b> (e.g. flashing red light) to assist aliens in locating the threat within the delay. To expedite a response, aliens could also get a <b>hivesight indicator</b> showing the location of the obs (or the hive it is closest to), and <b>movement chambers</b> could direct aliens to the hive closest to the beacon.
Yes these measures are somewhat contrived... but so is the little red laser dot when you nuke in StarCraft; it makes it a more fun game to play.
A few possible tweaks that would help balance issues brought up by this new application of distress beacon:<ul><li>Increase observatory health when within the build range of a turret factory: to negate the effect that the ~5 second delay will have on an effective defensive response-- I think most concerns are related to its offfensive uses anyway.</li><li>Only one distress "call" can be active at a time: so that sneaky commanders don't bait and switch two different hives right after each other. This one I think is a must.</li><li>Offense towers get a boost near a hive (?): It might be hard for aliens to defend against the whole marine team at one hive.. this could help.</li><li>Sensory towers near a beaconing observatory add time to the delay: reduce dependence on DMS.</li><li>Designate some observatories as "home observatories" (perhaps by proximity to an active command chair, as mentioned before by OG17). Home observatories don't suffer from the 5 second-lag, nor do they affect hivesight/movement chambers. This would preserve the original intent of distress beacon.</li><li>I don't know what happens with movement chambers when two hives are under attack, but the chambers should randomly choose a hive to teleport to. The same if a hive is under attack and being beaconed at the same time.</li></ul>
In my opinion, the defensive uses of this feature would be most valuable: marines can defend an area without getting "spawn-camped," as with pgs now. Offensively, the phase gate would still be useful, as you have more of an element of surprise for less res.
In any case, it still is a huge risk. An clever alien team can harass an expansion with an onos or otherwise exploit the commander committing all his forces in one location.
If covering these fortifications is a problem for you, than there's also the matter of player skill balance. The game is pretty balanced as it is, if anything the Marines have a slight advantage. A good Alien team <b>CAN</b> wipe out a base, and a good Marine team <b>CAN</b> counter it. It all depends on who's better.