<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 9 2004, 12:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 9 2004, 12:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is rediculous. It might get me in trouble, but from the posts, I've concluded you people are morons. Complete and utter morons. If I've offended you, I'm sorry, I honestly don't mean that as a flame (as in 'I hate you you moron!'), but it's just the only conclusion *I* can come to after reading these posts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I hear it takes one to know one
<!--QuoteBegin-Gold Leader+Mar 9 2004, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gold Leader @ Mar 9 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can conclude from these posts that definitely some people do not like bunnyhopping. I cannot conclude that MOST people do not like bunnyhoppying because that does not follow from the evidence presented. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Following that train of logic, you can't conclude that most people like or dislike anything from this forum, because most people aren't on it.
Ergo, this whole commenting on balance thing is a farce since we can't ever determine what most people want?
I don't tend to think so.
I don't like Marine Jumping for two reasons.. First, it just looks dorky for a marine to be hopping around, knees up, as they do. Second, the knockback issue. Knockback should not increase whether the marine is in the air or on the ground. After all, supposedly the whole bit about knockback is the force of the bite is so hard it lifts you off the ground and punts you back a bit. If you're in the air, the force is still the same, so why do you fly back so much farther? If it takes *that* much force to get you off the ground, presumably you wouldn't be able to jump worth a dang in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 9 2004, 07:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 9 2004, 07:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Following that train of logic, you can't conclude that most people like or dislike anything from this forum, because most people aren't on it.
Ergo, this whole commenting on balance thing is a farce since we can't ever determine what most people want? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As for your first point, I agree. Concluding something on the basis of the opinions of a few forum members might not be wise.
As for the second point, I disagree. It is not the act of commenting on balance that is a farce, it is the act of drawing conclusions on evidence that is purely opinion.
Concordantly, you can indeed conclude things about Natural Selection based on these forums, it is just that those conclusions are stronger when backed up.
I can only speak for myself, but I am not convinced by arguments that are not backed up.
everyone alwasys wines that it wont be fair for the marine, but what ABOUT those aleins?
Shouldnt it be FUN to be an alein. Everyone seems to have this thing built up in thier head were the are beliveing the marines are the GOOD guys and are supposed to always win.... so they want marine things buff and aleins nerfed. they want to live out that good vs evil thing in the game. And in the game THEY want the marines will always conqour
What? The game is a lot of fun on aliens, otherwise I wouldn't play it. And if it was really so hard to kill marines, then why do I always peck out jetpackers by the dozen as a skulk?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What? The game is a lot of fun on aliens, otherwise I wouldn't play it. And if it was really so hard to kill marines, then why do I always peck out jetpackers by the dozen as a skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you don't play classic on large servers (20+)? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Playing alien <b>is fun</b> but it was much more fun in earlier builds because aliens could <b>win</b> the game. Winning is not everything but it should at least be possible to win with good teamwork.
Anyway combat is different. It's much easier to kill marines with celerity and other upgrade combinations because you can easily close the distance again, kill them with focus and take more damage with carapace at the same time.
I say the degree of KB should be dependant on the size of the alien..I agree that a skulk knocking a marine miles away with a bite is silly, but plausable with a Onos gore or a fade swipe (of course you must also factor in the armour the marine is wearing)
The ability of evade jumps adds unpredictablity to melee attacks, ok fine the skulk successfully closed the distance and got into melee range and should get a kill for his efforts, but consider that most skilled skulks will run away if caught at range...so when a marine is caught at melee distance he jump evades, if a alien is caught at range difference he runs off. Sounds balanced to me.
Is it really that easy to jump like a nutter and evade skulk bites, and shoot the skulk ? I say it takes skill to time a evasion jump and orientate on the skulk to fire on him, as it takes skill to jump/look up to bite as a skulk.
I play equally as alien and marines, and had no problems regarding this as either race.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gold Leader+Mar 10 2004, 12:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gold Leader @ Mar 10 2004, 12:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 9 2004, 04:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 9 2004, 04:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you ask any of the aliens currently playing in a game(preferably one where they have all experienced, for example, marine dodging)[personally I have no problem with this, I'm just arguing for the sake of spreading logic], you can be pretty sure that most will respond either "omg ****" or "it's annoying, but necessary for balance". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the alien player responds "it's annoying, but necessary for balance", that isn't definitive enough. The alien player must state that they feel that "it is unbalanced".
I could (for the sake of logic) argue that getting killed is annoying, but necessary for balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I already said, I have no clue about the balance(since I play every other day now, rather than most of my spare time). But what do you mean "it isn't definitive enough"? To me, it seems crystal clear that anyone saying that would mean that they are annoyed by it, but they accept the fact that it has to be in, for balance to be maintained(although you could simply increase basic marine armor/decrease skulk bite damage to compensate.)... Should we let any feature of the game stay in "because it helps the balance", even though it is insanely annoying, or not fun for anyone?
On the last part: If noone ever died, the game would actually be LESS fun overall. Happy medium. Like onos health(except that doesn't have anything much to do with this discussion).
<!--QuoteBegin-Last.+,--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Last. @ ,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Align: considering nearly all your posts are one liners yourself... i wouldn't talk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which post are you addressing? I could elaborate on any of my posts to make them "multi-liners", but that would be a waste of space. I tend to compress my messages.
Align, just ignore Lasts's ****-filled posts. All you'll get is enough elitist BS to make your own clan with. I've been doing it since the second day I regged.
(Funny he should tell ME to not post. <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=05a8b74aab96c9b8a1bb55b686f7fd9a&search_in=posts&result_type=posts' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...sult_type=posts</a> Quite fun to read. EVERY post is loaded with sarcasm, whining that he's better then you, hell, just READ THE FIRST PAGE OF HIS POSTS. It goes on and on and on for pages.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Mar 10 2004, 05:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Mar 10 2004, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can say that just about each of your posts, Eek, is full to the brim with ignorance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ignorance simply means you disagree, and to prove your point you're going to flame about it (And you're a vet, I expect nothing less). Sarcasm and BS means you disagree, but can't actually provide anything to back it up beyond "You suck".
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 10 2004, 06:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 10 2004, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Mar 10 2004, 05:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Mar 10 2004, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can say that just about each of your posts, Eek, is full to the brim with ignorance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ignorance simply means you disagree, and to prove your point you're going to flame about it (And you're a vet, I expect nothing less). Sarcasm and BS means you disagree, but can't actually provide anything to back it up beyond "You suck". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol
Just because you've been backed up into a corner doesn't mean you have to post senseless flames. EEK, before you talk about other people, consider your own posts. I'd give you a link to them, but I think you've figured how to search for posts already <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
can we ignore this little argument and get back on topic, please?
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 10 2004, 06:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 10 2004, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Mar 9 2004, 10:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Mar 9 2004, 10:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Consider friction.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if knockback just slid you along the ground, perhaps I'd agree.
Of course, if it just slid you along the ground, far more likely you'd fall over. Marines don't tend to fall over.
Hence, it must not slide you along the ground.
Meaning friction is more or less of a non-issue..
All that aside, however, that's a "realism" argument, and doesn't actually touch on the issue of a "gameplay" argument.
If the knockback when you're on the ground is enough to maintain balance, why is it increased when you jump? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What I meant when I said 'consider friction' was the fact that a force will accelerate you to a higher velocity when there is less friction (like in the air) than when it has to overcome friction first (when you're connected with the ground by the feet).
Friction decreases the overall force of the knockback unless the marine goes straight up. On the other hand, if the marine had jumped before being knocked-back, he'd fly further - which explains the current knockback.. through physics. Now, I did not say that the physics were 'realistic', but that is how it works in NS with the HL game engine.
Keep in mind that you addressed the 'realism' argument in the first place. With gameplay in mind, however, you have to link it back to the physics - it is increased because that's how the engine physics work. It has been suggested before that knockback be reduced, but there's still be the same effect - you'll be knocked back further if you start in the air than if you start on the ground.
PS: <3 'EEK' for your great post explaining ignorance - I am now enlightened by your teachings. Bursting with joy am I.
Comments
I hear it takes one to know one
Following that train of logic, you can't conclude that most people like or dislike anything from this forum, because most people aren't on it.
Ergo, this whole commenting on balance thing is a farce since we can't ever determine what most people want?
I don't tend to think so.
I don't like Marine Jumping for two reasons..
First, it just looks dorky for a marine to be hopping around, knees up, as they do.
Second, the knockback issue. Knockback should not increase whether the marine is in the air or on the ground. After all, supposedly the whole bit about knockback is the force of the bite is so hard it lifts you off the ground and punts you back a bit. If you're in the air, the force is still the same, so why do you fly back so much farther? If it takes *that* much force to get you off the ground, presumably you wouldn't be able to jump worth a dang in the first place.
Ergo, this whole commenting on balance thing is a farce since we can't ever determine what most people want?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for your first point, I agree. Concluding something on the basis of the opinions of a few forum members might not be wise.
As for the second point, I disagree. It is not the act of commenting on balance that is a farce, it is the act of drawing conclusions on evidence that is purely opinion.
Concordantly, you can indeed conclude things about Natural Selection based on these forums, it is just that those conclusions are stronger when backed up.
I can only speak for myself, but I am not convinced by arguments that are not backed up.
everyone alwasys wines that it wont be fair for the marine, but what ABOUT those aleins?
Shouldnt it be FUN to be an alein. Everyone seems to have this thing built up in thier head were the are beliveing the marines are the GOOD guys and are supposed to always win.... so they want marine things buff and aleins nerfed. they want to live out that good vs evil thing in the game. And in the game THEY want the marines will always conqour
Maybe you don't play classic on large servers (20+)? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Playing alien <b>is fun</b> but it was much more fun in earlier builds because aliens could <b>win</b> the game. Winning is not everything but it should at least be possible to win with good teamwork.
Anyway combat is different. It's much easier to kill marines with celerity and other upgrade combinations because you can easily close the distance again, kill them with focus and take more damage with carapace at the same time.
The ability of evade jumps adds unpredictablity to melee attacks, ok fine the skulk successfully closed the distance and got into melee range and should get a kill for his efforts, but consider that most skilled skulks will run away if caught at range...so when a marine is caught at melee distance he jump evades, if a alien is caught at range difference he runs off. Sounds balanced to me.
Is it really that easy to jump like a nutter and evade skulk bites, and shoot the skulk ? I say it takes skill to time a evasion jump and orientate on the skulk to fire on him, as it takes skill to jump/look up to bite as a skulk.
I play equally as alien and marines, and had no problems regarding this as either race.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the alien player responds "it's annoying, but necessary for balance", that isn't definitive enough. The alien player must state that they feel that "it is unbalanced".
I could (for the sake of logic) argue that getting killed is annoying, but necessary for balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I already said, I have no clue about the balance(since I play every other day now, rather than most of my spare time). But what do you mean "it isn't definitive enough"? To me, it seems crystal clear that anyone saying that would mean that they are annoyed by it, but they accept the fact that it has to be in, for balance to be maintained(although you could simply increase basic marine armor/decrease skulk bite damage to compensate.)...
Should we let any feature of the game stay in "because it helps the balance", even though it is insanely annoying, or not fun for anyone?
On the last part: If noone ever died, the game would actually be LESS fun overall. Happy medium. Like onos health(except that doesn't have anything much to do with this discussion).
<!--QuoteBegin-Last.+,--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Last. @ ,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Align: considering nearly all your posts are one liners yourself... i wouldn't talk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which post are you addressing? I could elaborate on any of my posts to make them "multi-liners", but that would be a waste of space. I tend to compress my messages.
(Funny he should tell ME to not post. <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=05a8b74aab96c9b8a1bb55b686f7fd9a&search_in=posts&result_type=posts' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...sult_type=posts</a> Quite fun to read. EVERY post is loaded with sarcasm, whining that he's better then you, hell, just READ THE FIRST PAGE OF HIS POSTS. It goes on and on and on for pages.)
And if knockback just slid you along the ground, perhaps I'd agree.
Of course, if it just slid you along the ground, far more likely you'd fall over. Marines don't tend to fall over.
Hence, it must not slide you along the ground.
Meaning friction is more or less of a non-issue..
All that aside, however, that's a "realism" argument, and doesn't actually touch on the issue of a "gameplay" argument.
If the knockback when you're on the ground is enough to maintain balance, why is it increased when you jump?
Ignorance simply means you disagree, and to prove your point you're going to flame about it (And you're a vet, I expect nothing less). Sarcasm and BS means you disagree, but can't actually provide anything to back it up beyond "You suck".
Ignorance simply means you disagree, and to prove your point you're going to flame about it (And you're a vet, I expect nothing less). Sarcasm and BS means you disagree, but can't actually provide anything to back it up beyond "You suck". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol
can we ignore this little argument and get back on topic, please?
And if knockback just slid you along the ground, perhaps I'd agree.
Of course, if it just slid you along the ground, far more likely you'd fall over. Marines don't tend to fall over.
Hence, it must not slide you along the ground.
Meaning friction is more or less of a non-issue..
All that aside, however, that's a "realism" argument, and doesn't actually touch on the issue of a "gameplay" argument.
If the knockback when you're on the ground is enough to maintain balance, why is it increased when you jump? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I meant when I said 'consider friction' was the fact that a force will accelerate you to a higher velocity when there is less friction (like in the air) than when it has to overcome friction first (when you're connected with the ground by the feet).
Friction decreases the overall force of the knockback unless the marine goes straight up. On the other hand, if the marine had jumped before being knocked-back, he'd fly further - which explains the current knockback.. through physics. Now, I did not say that the physics were 'realistic', but that is how it works in NS with the HL game engine.
Keep in mind that you addressed the 'realism' argument in the first place. With gameplay in mind, however, you have to link it back to the physics - it is increased because that's how the engine physics work. It has been suggested before that knockback be reduced, but there's still be the same effect - you'll be knocked back further if you start in the air than if you start on the ground.
PS: <3 'EEK' for your great post explaining ignorance - I am now enlightened by your teachings. Bursting with joy am I.