Apologetic Offshoot #1
Legionnaired
Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Why did God create us?</div> <!--QuoteBegin-Cronos+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From a religious standpoint, god created man, layed down a couple of rules and thats that.
Big question here. Why? Why would a perfect god create an imperfect being that he KNEW would betray him?
There is only one reason that I can think of.
God wants fellow creators. By making us imperfect, he ascribes to us the will and drive to achieve something more, to better ourselves as individuals and as a race.
Of what use is a mindless worshipper? Of what use is blind belief? Faith may move mountains, but a creator can create them.
As inelegant as that is, it seems true.
God created Man with a much broader scope and vision then anyone here can possibly imagine. God has no use for a mindless slave, rather, he has a use, a motive, perhaps a vested interest, in seeing fellow creators come into the fold.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God created out of abundance. He is outside of even time, and thus, has absolutely no reason to create us. He just did, and he loves us. The best explanation you will get for why God created us, is that he created us to love us. He is after all, all powerful and soverign, so it doesn't really matter that much.
The reason that He created humanity with foreknowledge that we would fall from Him is because free will is the only thing that makes real love possible.
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
#include stdio.h
main()
{
cout << "I love you Legionnaired!"
}
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
That doesn't mean a thing. I could even throw a 'for' loop in there and it wouldn't mean any more than that code does now. Contrast that with a certain special someone coming and throwing her arms around me and telling me how cool I am, and how much she loves me, and you see the importance of free will.
Some will say "Why not grant free will, without the ability to choose evil?" That is the same thing as saying "Why not give someone the choice between vanilla and vanilla?" The choice to love God has no meaning, if we also have the choice to hate God.
God obviously thought it was worth it.
Your thoughts Cronos? Or any other skeptics out there?
Big question here. Why? Why would a perfect god create an imperfect being that he KNEW would betray him?
There is only one reason that I can think of.
God wants fellow creators. By making us imperfect, he ascribes to us the will and drive to achieve something more, to better ourselves as individuals and as a race.
Of what use is a mindless worshipper? Of what use is blind belief? Faith may move mountains, but a creator can create them.
As inelegant as that is, it seems true.
God created Man with a much broader scope and vision then anyone here can possibly imagine. God has no use for a mindless slave, rather, he has a use, a motive, perhaps a vested interest, in seeing fellow creators come into the fold.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God created out of abundance. He is outside of even time, and thus, has absolutely no reason to create us. He just did, and he loves us. The best explanation you will get for why God created us, is that he created us to love us. He is after all, all powerful and soverign, so it doesn't really matter that much.
The reason that He created humanity with foreknowledge that we would fall from Him is because free will is the only thing that makes real love possible.
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
#include stdio.h
main()
{
cout << "I love you Legionnaired!"
}
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
That doesn't mean a thing. I could even throw a 'for' loop in there and it wouldn't mean any more than that code does now. Contrast that with a certain special someone coming and throwing her arms around me and telling me how cool I am, and how much she loves me, and you see the importance of free will.
Some will say "Why not grant free will, without the ability to choose evil?" That is the same thing as saying "Why not give someone the choice between vanilla and vanilla?" The choice to love God has no meaning, if we also have the choice to hate God.
God obviously thought it was worth it.
Your thoughts Cronos? Or any other skeptics out there?
Comments
In my opinion, the problem of free will and an omniscient God hasn't been reconciled.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason that He created humanity with foreknowledge that we would fall from Him is because free will is the only thing that makes real love possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If God indeed has such foreknowledge of what we're going to do already, how can free will be possible? If God already knows what we're going to do, then we're just running along tracks already laid out. Not only does omniscience make free will impossible, it also removes moral responsibility.
The most common argument against the above is that God's omniscience doesn't impose itself on events and that God knows a free act when he sees one. That doesn't really answer the dilemma, since it doesn't answer how an act can be "free" is God has infallible knowledge of it prior to it's occurance.
The concept of omniscience also conflicts with the idea that God is omnipotent. If God knows the future with infallible certainty, he can not change it and thus is not omnipotent. If he can change the future, than he does not know the future with infallible certainty and thus is not omniscient. This also brings up the argument of does God have free will? Does God know his own decisions beforehand and if so, how can those decisions be free?
It would seem then that the sometimes mutual love he is with us is an expendable luxury...
I find extremely cruel. (S)He makes a race of beings and puts them in harms way so we can stand around and tell each other how wonderful God is? I gave that response to my RS teacher and he asked whether you'd mix cement in a washing machine (no, I don't get it either) to which, being the smart...alec I am, responded yes, If you had nothing else to mix it in...
If this was applied to a human, I'd say it was possibly having inferiorty problems. Creating people to love and love you could either be a marvellously altruistic thing (you'd assume so with a benevolent god) or it could be a really selfish dysfunctional thing (think of people having children ONLY because they had a bad childhood). If I was God and being wonderful and altruistic, I'd give my little mini drones a world so achingly beautiful they couldn't help praising my name and glorifying me constantly, not one filled with pain, suffering and death.
In short, the way I see it, God is either non-existant, or a cruel attention seeker.
**Pop** I have come into being.
Who am I?
"Cronos"
Ah, okay, why am I here?
"Because God Created You"
Why?
"Because he loves you"
But if god loves me, why am I so imperfect, why do I live in an imperfect world? There are only two things that I can think of. God does not love me absolutely. I am not the pinnacle of his love, therefore there are things more perfect then I that god ultimately loves more then myself. Therefore, to be more loved by god, I must seek to attain perfection. What is the pinnacle of perfection? Being god.
However, if I AM the pinnacle of Gods love? What then am I here for?
"You are here to have a relationship with god"
But what kind of relationship?
Is my relationship with god as it is a Teacher to a Student? Am I a servant to a master?
Does god want mindless slaves praising his greatness and glory? What for? God is perfect and all powerful. He needs no slaves. He needs no praise. He is beyond both.
Thusly, I propose this kind of relationship to god.
If god exists, and did create us with full knowledge of our ultimate destiny, then ultimately we are to reach a par with god. We are gods children. He created us, not to be his unthinking servants, but rather to ascend to his level and shake his hand.
What does this say? We are but students. We are in the classroom of life. Answers on a test are not given, they are learned. Achievement is not handed down, it is earned.
Thus, power over all things should never be handed to us. We have to earn it, and learn to use it with reason. If omnipotence is our ultimate goal, we must earn it, learn it, and work for it. God wants fellow creators. He wants to see his children grow, develop, mature and achieve independence. That is the goal of a parent and a teacher. If god can be considered the ultimate parent, and the ultimate teacher, then mankind must be the ultimate student, the ultimate child.
"What then, of the individual? Are you insignificant?"
Perhaps. Perhaps when mans time is gone, the collective, "Life Force" or souls of every man that has ever lived will merge into one and become a new god. If that is how it happens, then no, no life is insignificant. Each and every life contributes to the whole, whether it has lived 5 seconds or 5 centuries.
"What if it dosent work like that? What if humanities fate is something reserved for a future generation?"
If we are but a step in the process of perfection, then so be it. We shall be remembered. Even a being that has attained perfection from an imperfect state will always remember that which gave it perfection. If we are to die without being part of this greater being then so be it. If we are links in the chain, why not be satisfied? A chain without links is not a chain. A stairwell without stairs leads to nowhere. A molecule cannot be without bonds. Thus, we will be remembered, not for being part of a perfect being, but rather as an integral step in the creation of that perfect being.
Even if we are not remembered, what of it? We are important to ourselves. I value my life, you no doubt value yours. We also value our loved ones. When we die we will be put into a wooden box and placed six feet into the ground. Our families will remember, and mourn, for us for a time, yet eventually they will move on. After a generation we will be forgotten. It is the way of things.
What then is the importance of our lives? Simple. That we have existed at all, is in itself important. The chances stacked against us are so incredibly high as to be unbelievable.
For example. I have a box with a thousand marbles in it, or 10 marbles. You dont know how many. Now, if the box should have only 10 marbles, you have a higher chance of coming earlier. But if the box has a thousand marbles, then coming early is either very lucky, or very unlucky.
We are either incredibly lucky to be alive today instead of in the far future, or there isnt much of a future left for us to exist in and that humanity will be coming to and end soon, wether we will be ascending to a divine plane of existence or are going to be wiped from the face of memory is yet to be seen. Whether that future is ten years hence or ten million years hence is also yet to be seen.
For what its worth, live and enjoy. Humanities purpose, it's ultimate purpose, is either something we cannot know, or something we need to forge for ourselves, given time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, God does not want 'mindless' slaves. That is why he gave us the free will to choose against Him. And, we are told in the Bible, it is precisely because you have chosen against Him that you are in this imperfect state you yourself described.
Your entire argument hinges on the idea that God's love is somehow conditional, that we have to do something to earn his praise, and that just isn't true.
<!--QuoteBegin-Isaiah 64:6+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Isaiah 64:6)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry about the KJV, only web version I could find here at school.
"All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags," The greatest things we could possibly ever hope to achieve, either as individuals or as a species are absolutely nothing compared to the things God could do. It's worth noting that 'filthy rags,' literally translated from the Hebrew means, basically, tampons. The bible is quite adamant that compared to God, we're not even a good servant.
Yet, we are also told that He loves us unconditionally. That no matter what we do, He will still love us, and make every effort to bring us back to a relationship with Him. Yet, He does all this while still respecting our free will. He gives us the choice to accept His provision, His means of bringing us back into a relationship with Him.
He gave Christ up to die for us.
We are told that we can either accept His sacrifice, we can ask Him to use His blood to cover over that which we have done wrong, permitting us to enter back into a relationship with God, and ultimately, heaven; Or we can reject Him, call Him a 'good moral teacher' or just plain crazy, and go on our way. God gives us free will, even in that.
To be more loved by God, you don't have to be God, you just have to be. To be more pleasing to God, you must draw near to God, and the only way to do that is not to become a god yourself, but to enter back into a relationship with Him. And, we are told quite clearly that the only way to do that is to accept the fact that Christ is God's provision for us, and ask that great work He did on the cross to apply to us somehow. There is no other way to be in a relationship with God, we need to accept our situation, that He is God, we are His creation, and that's that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Isaiah 64:6+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Isaiah 64:6)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry about the KJV, only web version I could find here at school.
"All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags," The greatest things we could possibly ever hope to achieve, either as individuals or as a species are absolutely nothing compared to the things God could do. It's worth noting that 'filthy rags,' literally translated from the Hebrew means, basically, tampons. The bible is quite adamant that compared to God, we're not even a good servant.
Yet, we are also told that He loves us unconditionally. That no matter what we do, He will still love us, and make every effort to bring us back to a relationship with Him. Yet, He does all this while still respecting our free will. He gives us the choice to accept His provision, His means of bringing us back into a relationship with Him.
He gave Christ up to die for us.
We are told that we can either accept His sacrifice, we can ask Him to use His blood to cover over that which we have done wrong, permitting us to enter back into a relationship with God, and ultimately, heaven; Or we can reject Him, call Him a 'good moral teacher' or just plain crazy, and go on our way. God gives us free will, even in that.
To be more loved by God, you don't have to be God, you just have to be. To be more pleasing to God, you must draw near to God, and the only way to do that is not to become a god yourself, but to enter back into a relationship with Him. And, we are told quite clearly that the only way to do that is to accept the fact that Christ is God's provision for us, and ask that great work He did on the cross to apply to us somehow. There is no other way to be in a relationship with God, we need to accept our situation, that He is God, we are His creation, and that's that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, God does not want 'mindless' slaves. That is why he gave us the free will to choose against Him. And, we are told in the Bible, it is precisely because you have chosen against Him that you are in this imperfect state you yourself described.
Your entire argument hinges on the idea that God's love is somehow conditional, that we have to do something to earn his praise, and that just isn't true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who is to say that I am choosing against god? What if I am simply taking another path? Even those that fully accept the lord are imperfect. ALL Humans are imperfect, not because god does not love them, but because that is part of being human.
Also, I never suggested a conditionality for gods love. Merely postulated possible reasons for creating the humans he so dearly loves.
Though mans works today and at the time that passage was but dust, whom is to say we shant rise to ascendancy?
My entire post above is essentially a cogitation of WHY god made the human race.
If god is the father of all humans, then would he not, as a father, be proud of our achievements? Why is rising to become his equal not a great goal? Why is creating good things in his name for him not a great goal?
He gave his son to us, a great sacrifice indeed. Are we to simply sit on our haunches, smile and say "Thanks god, watch over me and my family while we live out our lives"?
The only relationship worth speaking of is an egalitarian one, in which all parties are considered equals. He is god, we are his creation. Why did he create us? You may be able to describe how things are but as yet you fail to answer the question. Why did god create us?
Thus far, the only reasoning I've seen used is the bible, which essentially can be summed up as "WE ARE NOT WORTHY! WE ARE NOT WORTHY!" over and over.
Indeed, god has made sacrifices for us. Why make sacrifices for dust? Why bother creating that which is less then dust?
I will draw an analogy.
A single brain cell. Alone, isolated etc. It will stretch out it's nerves to search for other brain cells. If it finds none, then it dies.
The point? Life Seeks Life, this is evident with our mars programs and Seti. Man Seeks God. To reach God, you can either die, or ascend. The bible itself makes mention of the Rapture. Who is to say that this is not indeed the event in which man will ascend to become gods equal?
One last thing. I do not propose that man becomes god himself. I propose that man become gods equal. A fellow god. So if there is one God now, then there will be two gods when man Ascends.
Is ascendency so absolutely against god that it is precluded absolutely? And if so, how do you KNOW that ascendency is indeed against god to be precluded absolutely? The bible is hardly a definitive word. Translated and tweaked, twisted translations and even the possibility of author bias (people changing the content to suit them) all make the bible unreliable as a definitive source of information but thats a whole other topic.
Summed up. Why is ascendence bad? How do you know it is bad? And Why did god create Man?
Humans have destructive tendancies. Assuming we were created, it is pretty hard to imagine that was accidental (and accidents are impossible if you assume a flawless diety).
One of these tendancies is toward environmental destruction. The natural question: what purpose does it serve? Giant leap of an answer: god is using us as a terraforming strategy, waiting for us to destroy the ecosystem and wipe ourselves out before colonizing, and enjoying the cool radioactivity of a fresh nuclear winter.
//end cbii
Sounds like the plot of a good scifi novel, I'd say. Still quite thought provoking.
On to being serious: Assuming that god created us as something to love, how does the whole heaven/hell idea fit into the picture? Why would there be a system for rewarding certain behaviors if god did not want us to be a certain way? That system implies that we are a means to an end, even if that end is just bettering ourselves and living good lives, but doesn't mesh well with us just being created as an object of affection.
Also: If god would hold against us that we are using his gifts (our minds) to deduce that he either doesn't exist or has become irrelevant, is he worthy of worship to begin with? I hold man to higher standards of justice and fairness than that.
So, in summary: even if we were created, we could easily have everything else all wrong about religion. Creation is a minor issue compared to other aspects of religion, including whether god is good at all.
All knowing
All powerful
All good
We're assuming that he does things out of 'goodness', and he can do anything, and he knows all. This means he knew about evil, or he was powerless to prevent evil, or he wanted evil to be there, which is a contradiction to one of those three traits. You simply can't have evil in this world without taking away from one of those attributes, yet these are the attributes the bible proclaims. Could the bible really be wrong?
Make all the elaborate claims and theories you want, but to explain evil, you have to take away from at least one of these three traits.
Could it be that the 'trait' to take away from is "All good."? Maybe God isn't entirely good. If this were the case, us being here is not a circumstance of 'love' but some alterior motive.
Could it be that the 'trait' is "all knowing"? Maybe God wishes to learn something about us? Maybe he doesn't know what our fates will be. Maybe this is why he created us.. to learn more about his creation.
Could it be that the 'trait' is "all powerful"? Maybe we are an accident that he kept around. A lab experiment gone wrong. What if he doesn't have the power to control what happens? He may know our fate, but he cannot diverge us from the path.
Who knows why we are here? Not to be blasphemous, but perhaps God isn't perfect as we thought.
I cant remember the specific statement, but it went along the lines of "A being is not morally culpable in allowing preventable evil if it is for the greater evental good" or something like that.
Thats pretty much the winner for religious types in our own mind. We believe in an all knowing, all powerful and all good God. If evil is happening that he can stop, we are left to assume he's letting it happen for some greater good.
How can humans love God "freely" if God already knows who's going to love him and who won't?
How can humans love God "freely" if God already knows who's going to love him and who won't? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not that I regard myself as any sort of philosopher, but here goes.
Assuming I am omniscient for 5 minutes. I give you the choice between going through two doors, one red - the other blue.
I know in advance which one you're going to go through. The fact that I know does not make any difference to your ultimate decision, because it is _your_ decision to make. I am simply observing your future actions.
In other words, there is a fundamental difference between the knowing and the doing. As long as I don't force you, you have free will.
So really, there is no contradiction between omniscience and free will when viewed with the observer idea in mind.
Using the red door/blue door example:
You know, infallibly, that I'm going to pick the red door. All of the experiences in my life have led up to the red door/blue door choice and you already know the outcome is going to be the red door.
Even if God is just an observer, where's the decision making? If God knows the future with infallible certainty, I'm powerless to change it and any "decision" I make is a sham since God already knows what I'm going to do. I'm just riding along an already known track and free will is an illusion.
Also see the omniscience/omnipotence argument in my first post.
Is free will the situation in which we may do as we so desire? No, I'd argue against that. Free will is the situation in which we MUST do as we so desire.
I find it interesting that most people, when they hear the 2nd statement, instantly rebel against such a concept. "Must" and "Free Will" seem to be mutually exclusive. But on the other hand, really start to think about it for a moment. By the law of mutual exlusion, a thing cannot both be and not be at the same time in the same context. So either you must do what you desire, by free will, or your free will is taken away from you when the situation arrises when you do NOT do what you so desire.
"But what about when I'm doing homework? I don't want to do it, but I do anyway..." actually, you do want to do your homework. You've weighed the consequences and rewards and judged that the result of doing homework is more beneficial than not doing it.
Where am I leading with this? Well, since you MUST do as you desire, it can be predetermined. It is your free will, but because it is your free will, you WILL do as you desire. Yes, you COULD have made a different choice, the red or blue door, but you DIDN'T. You CHOSE one over the other. And because you CHOSE that way, you MUST act as you chose. If you had chosen otherwise, you must have acted otherwise. I will continue to use the word must in these cases, to make it clear. Because of free will, not in spite of it, must this ocure.
Even if God is just an observer, where's the decision making? If God knows the future with infallible certainty, I'm powerless to change it and any "decision" I make is a sham since God already knows what I'm going to do. I'm just riding along an already known track and free will is an illusion.
Also see the omniscience/omnipotence argument in my first post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The already known track is still at each and every point determined by _your_ choices though i.e. predetermined by you. At each point you've made a decision, and the collection of these decisions is the sum of your free will.
I guess another way of looking at it is that you are powerless - not in the sense that you cannot act freely, but that you _will_ act freely (borrowing from Fieari's excellent post).
I'll have to take a look at the arguments tomorrow... brain is already frying here <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
How can humans love God "freely" if God already knows who's going to love him and who won't? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking to Hawkeye not you finch - but Ill address omniscence as well.
Here is an analogy my father used when I asked him about predestination. (he's a teacher bear in mind). He said this:
There is a teacher, a really really good teacher. And he looks at his class on the first day, and studies their habits. Then on the start of the second day, he stands up and addresses the students.
"This semester I have a really really hard course set for you. Its so hard in fact that a lot of you are going to fail. You are going to have to work really hard and you are definately going to need my help. I can guarantee that none of you can pass without my help - its really that hard. Now I already know whose going to fail, but when you fail that will be because you refused to let me help you."
Its the same with God, he knows whose going to fail - but that will be entirely up to them, not him. He will give them every chance, but at the end of the day its their fault. Choice remains with us. Just because God knows whats going to happen doesnt mean he's forcing it to happen.
Cronos - your idea of "men becoming God's equal" sound suspiciously like stories of the Fall of Lucifer and the Tower of Babel. In both occasions we had people/angels trying to elevate themselves. And they both got shut down harshly. The people building the tower of babel thought they could reach heaven. Now God knew that they couldnt make it - even if they had the tech to build as high as they could they would have got to space and hit a dead end. But what REALLY **** him off was why they were doing it.
I find it a little strange that God seems to be trying to save humanity from their own miserable situation, and someone is postulating that we should try and become God's equal. We cant even think of that before we have dealt with sin. God pretty much fights the urge to slay you on the spot every time you do something sinful - what chance do we have of elevating ourselves? Its like the man with 4 broken limbs in a 100m pit talking about how he's going to put a man on the moon. He has some more immediate issues to think about.
In the tower of Babel, and with Lucifer, both allowed their arrogance and pride to overtake them. In their thinking, they deserved power, that it was their right.
In my suggestions, I am referring not to mans Greatness, but rather to become fellow creators. I speak of none other then the betterment of mankind, of rising above what we are and becoming something more.
A son does not replace his father when they enter into the same proffesions. Man will not replace god if he should rise to the same level as god.
Just as god creates, why not can man create? Is creation something to be reserved only for the creator?
To god we are but the most primitive bacteria. Just as bacteria is to man, so man is to god. Give man enough time, and he will better himself.
And once man betters himself he will continue to do so, approaching perfection.
If creating can be considered the highest virtue, is not the lord the most virtuous?
If man can create better things, can man not also approach that level of virtuosity?
It seems we are falling off topic. The main contention of this topic is to try and answer WHY god created man. All things have reason. Why then did god create man? What is mans purpose in this vast universe of ours? What, ultimately is the fate and destiny of mankind?
Because he wanted to.
Simple as
Because he wanted to.
Simple as <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ITs difficult to restrain flaming instintcs here, but its tough to say what this quoted post contributed to the discussion.....
we have evelution to prove for are existance, and the more we figure out the universe, the more god just seems a faint memory from a book in the back of my head
I have no believe in god what so every
Because he wanted to.
Simple as <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ITs difficult to restrain flaming instintcs here, but its tough to say what this quoted post contributed to the discussion..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right, it contributes nothing to the discussion. Because there is nothing to discuss. You can go on all you like about why there is sin and free will, but that is not the question.
The question: Why did God create us, assumes there is a God, specifically, one the God of Classical Theism (Judaeo-Christian). That God created us because he wanted to, and, at the end of the day, that is all it boils down to. You can ask why, but if we are talking about the God of CT (and I think we are (see above)), then you have no right to ask that, because God is infinitely greater than you, and, being the creater of all things, doesn't need/have to justtify his actions to anyone. If he was accountable, he wouldn't be God.
In the tower of Babel, and with Lucifer, both allowed their arrogance and pride to overtake them. In their thinking, they deserved power, that it was their right.
In my suggestions, I am referring not to mans Greatness, but rather to become fellow creators. I speak of none other then the betterment of mankind, of rising above what we are and becoming something more.
A son does not replace his father when they enter into the same proffesions. Man will not replace god if he should rise to the same level as god.
Just as god creates, why not can man create? Is creation something to be reserved only for the creator?
To god we are but the most primitive bacteria. Just as bacteria is to man, so man is to god. Give man enough time, and he will better himself.
And once man betters himself he will continue to do so, approaching perfection.
If creating can be considered the highest virtue, is not the lord the most virtuous?
If man can create better things, can man not also approach that level of virtuosity?
It seems we are falling off topic. The main contention of this topic is to try and answer WHY god created man. All things have reason. Why then did god create man? What is mans purpose in this vast universe of ours? What, ultimately is the fate and destiny of mankind? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would consider attempting to rise above our current fatally flawed status to becoming equal creators with God arrogance in the extreme. We cant even save ourselves from ourselves, and we need God to lift us out of our mess. I would certainly agree with asking God to help us, and asking God to make us better people, but attempting in our own strength to become equal creators to God is not only destined to failure, but probably a fair amount of Divine Wrath.
We are completely 100% ignorant as to the real reason God created us. When he wants us to know, he'll let us know. As far as I know now, I am supposed to worship him, depend upon him and follow his rules. There is absolutely no way I'm going to wander off on my own trying to elevate myself to anything near his level. If I'm going up in this world - its because he is lifting.
I cant see that man is bettering himself. Thousands of years of developement and we still have basic human evil everywhere. According to God, it is this evil that condemns us, and its an evil we cant shake on our own.
Cronos, you give me the impression that you think God hasnt really made it clear what he wants his people to do. The God I worship has made it all too abundantly clear......
God either has a motive for creating humans or god does not have a motive.
If God has a motive, what possibly could God want from humans that he had to create us to get?
If god had no motive, then what could God get out of us other than a form of entertainment?
Either way, it's a sickening thought. I sort of refuse to believe God created the universe, all the pain and suffering that comes along with the universe, "doomed at the start" humans... all out of love. We know either he created us for something, or he created us out of entertainment (or some other reason for creating us from nothing in order to get nothing).
If you were a god, would you create a universe full of pain and suffering and a bunch of humans to suffer in that world you created just out of love? Hell no, it's reality television at its finest. The only other alternative that I can think of is that he wanted something from us.
If you were a god, would you create a universe full of pain and suffering and a bunch of humans to suffer in that world you created just out of love? Hell no, it's reality television at its finest. The only other alternative that I can think of is that he wanted something from us. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its an interesting observation that everybody who argunes against God believes that God created the universe how it is today.
Does it never occur to you that perhaps all the pain and suffering is our fault? Maybe, if you answer your own question, then think more about it, you will see that it is the only possible way. Your question was "If you were a god, would you create a universe full of pain and suffering..." I think any sane human being would say no, and I completely agree. Now, if us, the flawed imperfect stupid humans beings are intelligent enough to know to create a universe free from pain and suffering, <b>how much more would aperfect, infinitely wise all powerful God?</b>
You can't blame God for the mess the world is in, you can't blame other people, you can only blame yourself. And evryday that you treat others badly, steal, lie or insult people, you are just making it worse.
(I am not just talking to Hawkeye btw, I am talking tyo everyone, including myself. We are ALL part of the problem. Humanity has got a lot to answer for.)
Using the all-knowing all-good all-powerful definition of god is not useful. It's actually somewhat contradictory when paired with things like the presence of evil arguement. But that doesn't matter either: there can still easily exist a god who is 98% good, more knowing than us, and powerful enough to create us, and that is all that is required for the creation arguement, and indeed most of the foundation of a Judeo-Christianity (or other) religion. Except for the 98% good part, we just about fit the other requirements ourselves.
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If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -- that is for making a world in which creatures can do real good or harm and somthing of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when he pulls the strings -- then we may take it as worth paying.
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So, really, God very well could have created us to do nothing but love and worship him. Except that would be artificial, realative to being able to charm any woman you like. For awhile it may seem wonderful, although eventually you will realize that the love of whatever woman you charm is artificial and devoid of the very thing that makes it real -- choice. If we choose on our own free will to love God, then it is given much more value.
On the topic of suffering, once more, I'm quoting C.S. Lewis:
<b>What Satan put into the heads of our remote ancestors was the idea they could "be like gods" -- could set up on their own as if they had created themselves -- be their own masters --invent some sort of happiness for themselves outside God, apart from God. And out of that hopeless attempt has come nearly all that we call human history -- money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery -- the long terrible history of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy.</b>
If your interested, the book these quotes are from is called <i>Mere Christianity</i>.
You can't blame God for the mess the world is in, you can't blame other people, you can only blame yourself. And evryday that you treat others badly, steal, lie or insult people, you are just making it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counterpoint: Hurricanes, earthquakes, horrible floods, locusts... the list goes on.
You could argue he cannot stop such things, but he's God! I thought he was supposed to be all-powerful, is he not? Maybe he is spiting the evil humans, but wouldn't that sort of make him an evil god to send hurricanes killing many people?
You can't blame God for the mess the world is in, you can't blame other people, you can only blame yourself. And evryday that you treat others badly, steal, lie or insult people, you are just making it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counterpoint: Hurricanes, earthquakes, horrible floods, locusts... the list goes on.
You could argue he cannot stop such things, but he's God! I thought he was supposed to be all-powerful, is he not? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a good question, I'll give it a shot:
If God destroyed all evil right now, He would destroy most of humanity. He did create a place for us, immune from disease, famine, suffering, and it was called Eden. He was forced to cast us out because man rebelled against him, showing contempt for his laws. Once man was cast out of Eden, all bets were off. God permitted us to suffer, merely because if he did not, there would be no free will. All suffering is created by evil, and evil is a moral choice which anyone is free to choose even if they are aware they should not.
So what does this have to do with earthquakes? We could look at Mark 13:7-8 and draw some information:
<b>13:7"When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened; those things must take place; but that is not yet the end.
13:8"For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. </b>
It would seem to insinuate that natural disasters are a consequence of human corruption. As though when God kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden, he removed from the Earth its perfection as well.
You can't blame God for the mess the world is in, you can't blame other people, you can only blame yourself. And evryday that you treat others badly, steal, lie or insult people, you are just making it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counterpoint: Hurricanes, earthquakes, horrible floods, locusts... the list goes on.
You could argue he cannot stop such things, but he's God! I thought he was supposed to be all-powerful, is he not? Maybe he is spiting the evil humans, but wouldn't that sort of make him an evil god to send hurricanes killing many people? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counter counter point (I think <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) Sice we are talking about the God of classical theism, Hurricanse and "natural disasters" are our fault too.
Everything that is wrong with the whole universe came as a direct consequence of our sin. Death, disease, earthquakes, all of it. Yes, Gopd could stop them, but he would be going against his own law, which he cannot (for want of a better word) do. He has set a time when he will say enough is enough, but until then, these things will happen. We are told that the earth is groaning like a woman in labour waiting for that day. When man sinned, the whole of creation was cursed. By the sweat of our borw do we get food from the earth. Before, plenty of food grew naturally, now we have toi work for it. Even death is our fault. You were made from dust, and unto dust you shall return.
Maybe a God created us? Maybe he did not. Is there a God a higher lifeform? Maybe. Does it really matter not really just be happy that you are alive and are apart of this universe. Cause all in all, all that really matters in life is happiness. Nothing more is needed than that. Do what makes you happy and keep it and cherish it.
For instance im quite possibily the happiest man alive right now. I can't remember the last time I got angry or even raised my voice in anger. Half the day I can't keep a smile off my face. Its not really a physical smile but a inner one that I can feel. I feel all my muscles in my lips making a smile saying "HA no matter what I will always be happy!"
When the time comes and when I die I just hope and wish people wont sit there sobing over me for their entire life. I hope that these people can express there emotions when the time comes and then live there lives. Its like this story a wise man told me about a women losing her only child.
"I can't bear the pain and sorrow," she told her sister.
"My sister, did you mourn your son before he was born?"
"No of course not,' the despondent woman replied.
"Well then, you need not mourn for him now. He has only returned to the same place, his original home, before he was ever born."
If I ever have kids I will tell them of this story.
"Death is not sad; the sad thing is that most people don't really live at all." -Socrates (Not the one you know)
Long post eh?
Basically my point is dont worry about why you were created worry about living your life, be happy with yourself and others no matter how hard it may seem.