I stand by my position that destroying enemy RTs and replacing them with your own is a much better start then getting them early.
I've down the slash n' burn startegy as both aliens and marines and it usually ends with a really fast victory.
Typical alien win= wait for marines to get first 3 rts outside of spawn (maybe the comm is dumb enough to waste res elecing) then destroy them.
Typical marine win= destroy aliens first 3 RTs (including start) and replace them.
Basically both options leave the opposing team minus 45+ res and only 0-1 RTs.
And yes this ends games quickly, but when I comm I comm to win.
A recap of how slash n' burn works.
As marines: get lvl 1 armor before leaving base, send group to starting hive, destroy RT there and 2 surrounding, use distress beacon to return to base.
As aliens: Drop 3 defense chambers at the start of game, destroy marines closest RTs (spawn RT is usually impossible because they have base guards, if they don't destroy it too.).
This leaves your enemy with no res and you with a defense upgrade, and more comming (as marines) Also if you trust your team you can spend your medspam money on upgrading the armory right away.
Uh, the armory is a vital part of the marine tech tree. Why the ...fudge... would you not build an armory? Its ONLY 15 res, and you need it for shotguns, __MINES__, welders, __ARMS LABS__, and an obs.
I'd like to know in which server would marines appreciate comms not dropping an armory first... you know , it's not like I'm playing with a lot of whiny noobs , I happened to be ejected by a team entirely made of regulars and veterans for applying the FOOD principle. Likewise , people are quick to take my place when I help building the 2nd IP to compensate for high casualties.
It might be specific to the french community <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sapphire Rawk+Feb 26 2004, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sapphire Rawk @ Feb 26 2004, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because armories waste time when marines hump them! Are you not listening?? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines with no ammo are even more useless you know? But again, the armory is also a VITAL part of the marine's tech tree. You can't really build ANY tech buildings without building the armory first
<!--QuoteBegin-Sapphire Rawk+Feb 26 2004, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sapphire Rawk @ Feb 26 2004, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because armories waste time when marines hump them! Are you not listening??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All this crap about marines overusing the armory is BS. If your team consists of people that haven ever played NS before, you can expect to lose regardless of what strat you use. I'd rather gain the trust of my players by keeping them alive and getting fast ups. If I don't have to drop ammo, then I can concentrate on other things, making me a much more effective comm. I personally don't like strats that are based on the stupidity of my team.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I did not say to never make it. I said just not @ start.
Saves time, saves res, saves a guard (we don't need one then)
And if kharaa want to much down one RT why we take the other 8, let them. (and yes, I know we have 10 nozzels)
true advanced players will never hump @ start. But you are lucky if your team is only advanced players. Besides, if ppl are afraid of new strategies isn't that a problem on its own.
fact is this does work better if aplied well, then noone dares to do it helps to make it work. its hardly been done before.
Yes.. killing kharaa RTs, then placing yours is far more affective to starve a kharaa. If you want to pass by them by all means go.
I just think of this way. I place empty nozzels first, then use the new res to be sure the kharaa RTs go down. Then we down a few kharaa who got to evolve and own all RTs.
If we spend time on downing a RT first then others can be built. If we have them first those have to be downed aswell, which takes time.
I don't call professional players players if they: A. don't ever try new strategies or are willing 2. B. nag to have a armory @ startgame. Armory means there is a humpchance, they want shotguns, they want advanced upgrade or nades. I mean, WHY bother. 3 minutes later is not that a big difference. So instead of placing a armory which we upgrade when we got res to work with, we place one later and upgrade the sec its made. No timeloss there. only res gain.
If it fails for you to bad. Only proves you rusted in the same old strategy, teams who switch will surely easily finish you off. And I am sure there teams out there who are gona try. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
When armory is placed and I have time to get extra ammo, 150 and 20 is all you'll ever need. I doubt that 20 pistol would last anyways. The only time you should get more is what happens to me in combat. I leave spawn with the other in the know players and kill the rushers in the halls. Move in towards the hive. I sneak to the side and hide while my team kills the aliens and shoots the hive. If I'm close enough, I still get good XP. Once they are all dead, I wait for all the aliens to spawn and leave then find a good place to shoot the hive from and unload. Like that little vent in Kestrel, can use all my ammo and knife the hive several times before aliens know whats going on and kill me. By then, lvl 1 a/w, my weapon of choice (usually an HMG.)
Anyways, back to the topic. If I'm in a classic game, I usually leave base and grab the nearby RTs. In this time, I judge the comm. If I see him place an IP at base, good. I'll be respawning in case I die. If I see a TF, I usually shrug it off a bit. A tf in the begining isn't too much of time consumption and res, not to mention that if we keep the base, a turret or two can be placed for base killers. If I see turrets, I groan, already expecting a hard game that may equal a loss. Now, if I see an armory, well, I migh as well disconnect cause it won't be any fun. But if I know the team fairly well and see this, I don't complain as much. I know our skills are rather solid and we are very competent at following orders. If you don't have a good res pool anyways, what will upgrades matter? Sure, you got the arms lab down in like 50 seconds. But guess what, you don't have res for even an ammo pack because your team is humping the armory and your rts are dead or dieing due to an organized skulk rush of death (skrod, heh, screwed..) The point is that both FOOD and slash n' burn are good strategies, just that each require a different competence level in the marine team to work out. Not to mention that most people that play public games are doing it for the fun, not the competition.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
glad you understand. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I aint saying its the best way to do so, I say its the best way if: A. the strat is hardly used, thereby unknown B. the team takes the first 3 minutes to realise you are a competent comm.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
xs4all servers. but I'd watch it. We have n00b infestation lately. I know who the oldbies are but with bad luck you play versus the n00b wave. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anywayz, its xs4all.nl, have fun and hope all the oldbies are around. It helps.
<!--QuoteBegin-D.C. Darkling+Feb 29 2004, 09:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (D.C. Darkling @ Feb 29 2004, 09:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> xs4all servers. but I'd watch it. We have n00b infestation lately. I know who the oldbies are but with bad luck you play versus the n00b wave. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anywayz, its xs4all.nl, have fun and hope all the oldbies are around. It helps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tried this (also on a xs4all server <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) but i can't seem to get it work The only time it went really well was on a german server. I built 1 ip and nothing else, then went res hunting and built a tf outside their hive. The rines wanted to take down the hive immediately (reloc, maybe), so we were at the hive pretty fast with a group of 3 marines. the rest were capturing resnodes. Then i began. They had no ammo and started flaming me for not have built an armory... THEIR plan was to lock down the hive, but MINE was to cap res, and i did both. Well, I built an armory at the base (the game had gone on for a while by now). Then I got ejected because I was "too slow", probably they didn't notice I was capping many resnodes at the same time.
The positive thing was that they didn't keep on asking for an armory at the beginning
Well the other times I have tried this have ended in fast losses <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think I'm going to play with my normal tactic again.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
thinks to note:
DO get a armory soon ingame, just not @ start. but soon though. usually when the first person dies and respawns.
This tactic is VERY nerfing if kharaa have a close hive. This way your team has to guard each other when building. most teams don't.
I played this strategy today aswell and I got nuked on the 2nd thing. Kharaa were on my rines stat and noone bothered to shoot the skulk before he was in range.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dr.SmaSh+Mar 1 2004, 09:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dr.SmaSh @ Mar 1 2004, 09:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tryed this FOOD thing 2day... good thing is that I didn't get voted... bad thing is that I got kicked by noob admin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't get why an admin would kick someone for trying a non-standard strategy. Glad I haven't played at such a place in a while, though I'm probably sheltered.
Where I play, occasionally a comm will try the "no armory just yet" strategy. As long as the Commander communicates his/her intentions, no one complains. And even if they forget to say why they're doing this, a quick explanation usually works.
The main problem I see with armories is, as has been stated above, sometimes you can't get the marines to get to their objective quickly enough when they're humping. If speed is of the essence in a given strategy, early armory can hurt.
After some key areas are locked down, then an armory can be easily dropped.
<!--QuoteBegin-D.C. Darkling+Feb 23 2004, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (D.C. Darkling @ Feb 23 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [quote]Thats of course assuming he hasn't already layed down a plan that didnt involve getting res... [/quote[ Those are worthless.
Why waste res on buildings in first few minutes?
you got to make them, (res and timeloss) protect them (rine loss) while we need all these 3 resources to claim all RTs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You cant claim all RTs, since eventually the aliens will catch up, and eat your Rts by the dozen, then you got a hive and no ups, while they are getting fades...
IMO, you still need to defend your RTs in one way or the other, or you are just paying with lame aliens
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<!--QuoteBegin-Geronimo+Mar 2 2004, 08:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geronimo @ Mar 2 2004, 08:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You cant claim all RTs, since eventually the aliens will catch up, and eat your Rts by the dozen, then you got a hive and no ups, while they are getting fades...
IMO, you still need to defend your RTs in one way or the other, or you are just paying with lame aliens <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A. depending on startershive this will be interesting. If its a far away hive (like mother in nancy) then you CAN take atleast 5 before any serious problem arises. (I do not think of skulk as a seriosu prob, we are in a squad of course)
B. RTs do get eaten but we simply put them back. If you DO have a far away starters hive you can perfectly starve them from 5 min in the game. Let them all try to chew down one RT, we will get it back.
C. Of course all these RTs will get lotsa res and hell, we WILL get upgrades. Just not in the first few minutes. But the better the team does the faster we got more RTs, the faster they get upgrades. Fades vs shotty. I am willing to sacrifice a few shotties to finish there only fade, seeing them starve on 2 RTs.
I will show you your defense. *points @ rines* there they walk. Perfect strong mobile defense. Armor upgrades will help them greatly in there cause.
Now what if they HAVE a close starters hive? Just see how lockdown goes. Try to lock alot of remote RTs down. Alot of comms simply let themselves be starved. I never. Splitting your team might be a good idea for counter tactics. And yes, in such a cause I urge to build upgrades faster.
All of you asume the strat means no upgrades..THINK.. I aint stupid, of course we have upgrades lateron. But the only thing whihc will hurt anytime soon is a fade. And if I pass out 3 shotties and they can't even get one stupid fade we deserve to die.
1 ip in the begin, tell one person to stay at base while everyone moves out and gets rez. worse case I have to build another ips cause it gets backed up. after two mins to four mins, I usualy make a full on base, cause now I got like 4-6 rts, heres my stats: 1rt=armory shoties rush hive, win or lose 2rts=armory, obs upgrading phase 3rts=armory, arms lab-upgrading armor, obs-upgrading phase 4rts=armory upgrading, arms lab-upgrading armor, obs upgrading phase 5rts= amrory up, 2 arms lab uping, obs uping 6rts = armry, up 2 arms labs up, 2 obs uping 7rts = all upping, and electing a few 8 rts = all uping, and electing a few + shoties 9 rts = shotys, all uping, all electing 10rts = all uping, all elect, shoties, and a few turret farms 11rts+ Im doing everything, plust getting ready to seige a hive hera has like 12 nodes
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
you got the idea. I also usually send out the guard but thats based on situations. But yes. Thats basicly a idea.
Not talking bout the stats but about the move out thingy. lol. the stat is personal based. The beauty of the FOOD principle is that if they DO follow orders they don't die and get all these nifty upgrades cause we have plenty of res. How a com does that is his calling.
I also did this on hera once. Won on mother hive as start. With easy. Food secured a win for me within 5 min. Another match they had sub and I lsot brutally. Rines did not keep each others back and the skulks were back fast.
I aint saying this strat is the best, but I say it is the best if you make the first few minutes. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
basicly, if thier moved out, I drop med packs and ammo to em. with out them asking for it. its like. instead of. go get me stuff and ill give you some food. I use. here is some food. go get me the stuff and you can have even more! now they tastte it a lttle bit. If you never taste a $100 steak. youll never want it. after you taste it. youll want it more and more and more
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
nice variation. I like.
Aslong as they actually start listening. After all, its FollowOrdersOrDie. Aslong as they follow orders they get stuff. Does it really matter if tis before or after? I prefer after, its better vs idiots. But hey, if they follow orders.. help them live. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ok im new to these forums old to the game <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
the food principle is an excellent way to motivate ur marines and get u bannded and ejected at the same time.
i see many others have came to the same conclusion as i TIME, yes time is of the essence in this game
u must get upgrades faster than ur enemy u must get ha before they get fades but one thing u must do is SECURE UR BASE!
if u cannot secure your base u will die, if ur marines cannot spawn in peace without being molested u will die.
as soon as aliens realise u are relocating they are going to munch down every res node u have built **** the surrounding area and restrict your growth as a commander and as a team.
basicly i never relocate ever my basic principle and philosophy is to get 1 more res node than the aliens in the game, if it means u have to cut corners ie no armoury at the start of the game or 1 ip at the start of the game then that is not a problem.
personally i think this could and couldnt work just really depends on the team work of both sides
the slsh and burn method is a much better approach to the FOOD philosphy were by u REWARD your marines for doing good deads and punis those that are sitting in spawn ( ie in earlier versions i use to drop turrets on them wait til they type kill then recycle and drop another on them <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
i personally think that a good option is to move out rapidly securing res nodes at the start then hunker in beef up defensis at critical areas and choke points and out res and out upgrade the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of DOOOM+Mar 2 2004, 04:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of DOOOM @ Mar 2 2004, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> basicly, if thier moved out, I drop med packs and ammo to em. with out them asking for it. its like. instead of. go get me stuff and ill give you some food. I use. here is some food. go get me the stuff and you can have even more! now they tastte it a lttle bit. If you never taste a $100 steak. youll never want it. after you taste it. youll want it more and more and more <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Itchy. Tasty.
LMFAO.
Anyways, I'm interested in participating in this strategy sometime. Hopefully more commanders try to do something new.
You're pampering your marines and motivating them with glittering medpacks and shiny ammo packs.
This strategy, while interesting and possibly effective, requires you to be a leniant and nicey-nice commander.
Working on the basis of 'marines listening to you and they get the goods' is not as reliable as 'marines listening to you just because you're the comm'. You shouldn't be telling them "No, i'm not giving you guys an armory until we get atleast 5 RTs". It should be "Move out. get me RTs". No motivation, no reward, if they listen, they will win. Simple concept.
As many have stated, time is a HUGE factor in NS. Nothing but rts in the first 1 - 2 minutes? This mirrors the TF+electrification+ip bases that everyone shuns so much now. Simply stated, you save time on building up base, and thus that time is used for capping rts, but you LOSE out on time teching up your marines. You can have 100 billion res, but you can't make that armory upgrade any faster.
Why so much emphasis on rts? Rts are MUCH less important to marines than to aliens. 3 - 4 rts for marines is considered a very good situation (assuming you also keep thier rts down). Since res is pooled in the marine res system, small numbers of marine rts active is great. Since the alien's res is spread out between each of them, and an evolution is required, rts are much more important to aliens. Of course the more the better, but in a realistic game situation, its hard to keep more than 4 rts.
also what if they skulk rush your base? A relocation would be fine, but that already infringes on the basic concepts that this strat was created for: time and res. You waste time by relocating somewhere and having your marines build; you waste time by having to wait even LONGER to put down your armory, you waste time by having to respawn then get back in the chair, and you waste res by relocating.
Whats wrong with having one or two marines stay at base to build? Order 5 of your marines to move out for nodes, have two stay to build base. After the main group is gone, and out of humping range, put down the ip, armory and the rest: No humping, You get your base up, and the only downside is that, after your first res node you may have to wait to put down your second, but if you think about it, the time you save by starting up a base early is doubly beneficial because you can upgrade things that take a long time to upgrade (ie Advanced Armory) any time you want, instead of having to wait for someone to die to build the armory.
The basics of the FOOD strat is: Save Time, Save Res, Get more res, Get marines to listen.
The basics of the strat just stated:
Save time:
-> More than half of your marines move to to get res nodes immediately. Two more marines are not going to make a HUGE difference. If not, then just have one stay back to build base. There, you've got your time for your RTs. And you gain time by setting up a base early and getting the upgrades faster than if you had gotten them all to move out to get res nodes.
Save res:
-> this strategy does not save res. In fact, it should leave you constantly into the 0 - 15 res range. But hell, if you're not planning to do a full equipment suitup for your marines, then why are you saving? Your res is not truely yours until you spend it. You also don't have to spend 30+ res keeping your marines med and ammo'd up.
Get res: 5-6 marines getting nodes + killing skulks + killing nodes. I think that'll give you a nice res advantage.
Get Marines to listen: I don't think anything will get them to listen than for them to think that they know what thier comm is doing. Marines not only want equipment, they want to win. If they think they have a comm thats going to win it for them, they'll listen. If you don't have a base after one minute, chances are you're going to be ejected, because they think you don't know what you're doing (which might not be the case!). Upgrades make marines happy. Motion tracking makes marines happy. Armories make marines happy. Keep your marines happy, and they will listen to you.
But of course, i'm not bashing the strat itself. I'd like to try this strat sometime, just for a change in pace. But in no way do i see this strat being adopted by comms everywhere.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
You are right lito.
Since I am crap at writing let me try to explain some more.
Save time:
>let to rines stay @ base< on big teams indeed a valuable tactic. I just thoughed bout smaller teams where I need all my man.
Save res:
While its true that for a few seconds your less is around 15 all those RTs will give you insane res soon. In terms of time, you just gained res. I called it save but its better named gained.
Get res: >5-6 marines getting nodes + killing skulks + killing nodes. I think that'll give you a nice res advantage.< my team is usually only 5 man, thats why i ignore base man.
Get Marines to listen: I never say, do this or you get nothing. I just say "get RTs" if they don't listen I leave CC and say you do it. point is that I give them stuff when they need it, like medpacks. Rines just listening and getting medpacks when listening get motivated even more.
Also to your other points (good points) we will have a IP inbase. Since I doubt not even 1 rine gets ambushed we will have someone returning to base to build. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> if not I indeed will order one to backtrack to base. Either he makes it or he dies, both ways he is where he should be. base.
teching up will start as soon as someone returned to base, I prefer to time this with 2 RTs up. If skulks attack base, LET THEM. Ok, I am not in favor for relocs, hate it, but right now.. its PERFECT. Think of it:
one skulk: ip was placed AS FAR AWAY from the CC as possible. nail him yourself. more skulks: You are taking hives, rts, THERE rts aswell and they chew down a stupid IP? And then move to chew on your CC? I mean, WTH? Simply reloc the second they start chewing on the CC, maybe even if they just chew the IP. Your rines made good meters, you should have found a great place to base up. Can take MS for beacon lateron.
If they want to lose why you reloc to a perfect place, why not? they waste time, you don't. 5 rines building on a CC makes it build so fast I hardly call it a timeloss.
you are right, RTs are way more important for kharaa. But as the ferengi say, more is good.. all is better, goal is to techup with 2 more Rts, not never. Also you now got such insane resflow that in reality it goes faster. you can even make 2 armslabs, using them both. Of course recycling one lateron.
The relocation part is pointless if you provide a decent base defence such as a base guard or even a pack of mines will save you any trouble of relocation, unless you have a onos in your base, which you wont until 8 min into the game + it’s worth spending 10-20 res when wasting 80 In a relocation due to poor base defence
IP, RT, elec. Send marines out. No medpacks until 4 nodes. As all-around l33tbie |s|-Goddy says, "Get me double and I'll give you an armory." It works.
When I comm, I flip out on Marines. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> I'm a very impatient person when it comes to getting others to do things. Sometimes I just wish I could drop them an acid rocket as easily as ammo, or slip some cyanide into that medpack.. and how about metal razor blades in the armory holes?
Comments
This IS a basic part of the FOOD strategy. The principle is to folow orders, the strategy is building upon this.
If they listen they have a armory faster of course, cause we have Rts faster.
You go ahead and make a armory but know you better not use the FOOD principle then since its to late.
I've down the slash n' burn startegy as both aliens and marines and it usually ends with a really fast victory.
Typical alien win= wait for marines to get first 3 rts outside of spawn (maybe the comm is dumb enough to waste res elecing) then destroy them.
Typical marine win= destroy aliens first 3 RTs (including start) and replace them.
Basically both options leave the opposing team minus 45+ res and only 0-1 RTs.
And yes this ends games quickly, but when I comm I comm to win.
A recap of how slash n' burn works.
As marines: get lvl 1 armor before leaving base, send group to starting hive, destroy RT there and 2 surrounding, use distress beacon to return to base.
As aliens: Drop 3 defense chambers at the start of game, destroy marines closest RTs (spawn RT is usually impossible because they have base guards, if they don't destroy it too.).
This leaves your enemy with no res and you with a defense upgrade, and more comming (as marines) Also if you trust your team you can spend your medspam money on upgrading the armory right away.
It might be specific to the french community <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marines with no ammo are even more useless you know? But again, the armory is also a VITAL part of the marine's tech tree. You can't really build ANY tech buildings without building the armory first
All this crap about marines overusing the armory is BS. If your team consists of people that haven ever played NS before, you can expect to lose regardless of what strat you use. I'd rather gain the trust of my players by keeping them alive and getting fast ups. If I don't have to drop ammo, then I can concentrate on other things, making me a much more effective comm. I personally don't like strats that are based on the stupidity of my team.
Saves time, saves res, saves a guard (we don't need one then)
And if kharaa want to much down one RT why we take the other 8, let them. (and yes, I know we have 10 nozzels)
true advanced players will never hump @ start. But you are lucky if your team is only advanced players. Besides, if ppl are afraid of new strategies isn't that a problem on its own.
fact is this does work better if aplied well, then noone dares to do it helps to make it work. its hardly been done before.
Yes.. killing kharaa RTs, then placing yours is far more affective to starve a kharaa. If you want to pass by them by all means go.
I just think of this way. I place empty nozzels first, then use the new res to be sure the kharaa RTs go down. Then we down a few kharaa who got to evolve and own all RTs.
If we spend time on downing a RT first then others can be built. If we have them first those have to be downed aswell, which takes time.
I don't call professional players players if they:
A. don't ever try new strategies or are willing 2.
B. nag to have a armory @ startgame. Armory means there is a humpchance, they want shotguns, they want advanced upgrade or nades. I mean, WHY bother. 3 minutes later is not that a big difference. So instead of placing a armory which we upgrade when we got res to work with, we place one later and upgrade the sec its made. No timeloss there. only res gain.
If it fails for you to bad. Only proves you rusted in the same old strategy, teams who switch will surely easily finish you off. And I am sure there teams out there who are gona try. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyways, back to the topic. If I'm in a classic game, I usually leave base and grab the nearby RTs. In this time, I judge the comm. If I see him place an IP at base, good. I'll be respawning in case I die. If I see a TF, I usually shrug it off a bit. A tf in the begining isn't too much of time consumption and res, not to mention that if we keep the base, a turret or two can be placed for base killers. If I see turrets, I groan, already expecting a hard game that may equal a loss. Now, if I see an armory, well, I migh as well disconnect cause it won't be any fun. But if I know the team fairly well and see this, I don't complain as much. I know our skills are rather solid and we are very competent at following orders. If you don't have a good res pool anyways, what will upgrades matter? Sure, you got the arms lab down in like 50 seconds. But guess what, you don't have res for even an ammo pack because your team is humping the armory and your rts are dead or dieing due to an organized skulk rush of death (skrod, heh, screwed..) The point is that both FOOD and slash n' burn are good strategies, just that each require a different competence level in the marine team to work out. Not to mention that most people that play public games are doing it for the fun, not the competition.
I aint saying its the best way to do so, I say its the best way if:
A. the strat is hardly used, thereby unknown
B. the team takes the first 3 minutes to realise you are a competent comm.
but I'd watch it. We have n00b infestation lately. I know who the oldbies are but with bad luck you play versus the n00b wave. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anywayz, its xs4all.nl, have fun and hope all the oldbies are around. It helps.
but I'd watch it. We have n00b infestation lately. I know who the oldbies are but with bad luck you play versus the n00b wave. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anywayz, its xs4all.nl, have fun and hope all the oldbies are around. It helps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tried this (also on a xs4all server <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) but i can't seem to get it work
The only time it went really well was on a german server. I built 1 ip and nothing else, then went res hunting and built a tf outside their hive. The rines wanted to take down the hive immediately (reloc, maybe), so we were at the hive pretty fast with a group of 3 marines. the rest were capturing resnodes. Then i began. They had no ammo and started flaming me for not have built an armory... THEIR plan was to lock down the hive, but MINE was to cap res, and i did both. Well, I built an armory at the base (the game had gone on for a while by now). Then I got ejected because I was "too slow", probably they didn't notice I was capping many resnodes at the same time.
The positive thing was that they didn't keep on asking for an armory at the beginning
Well the other times I have tried this have ended in fast losses <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think I'm going to play with my normal tactic again.
DO get a armory soon ingame, just not @ start. but soon though. usually when the first person dies and respawns.
This tactic is VERY nerfing if kharaa have a close hive. This way your team has to guard each other when building. most teams don't.
I played this strategy today aswell and I got nuked on the 2nd thing. Kharaa were on my rines stat and noone bothered to shoot the skulk before he was in range.
I don't get why an admin would kick someone for trying a non-standard strategy. Glad I haven't played at such a place in a while, though I'm probably sheltered.
Where I play, occasionally a comm will try the "no armory just yet" strategy. As long as the Commander communicates his/her intentions, no one complains. And even if they forget to say why they're doing this, a quick explanation usually works.
The main problem I see with armories is, as has been stated above, sometimes you can't get the marines to get to their objective quickly enough when they're humping. If speed is of the essence in a given strategy, early armory can hurt.
After some key areas are locked down, then an armory can be easily dropped.
Those are worthless.
Why waste res on buildings in first few minutes?
you got to make them, (res and timeloss) protect them (rine loss) while we need all these 3 resources to claim all RTs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You cant claim all RTs, since eventually the aliens will catch up, and eat your Rts by the dozen, then you got a hive and no ups, while they are getting fades...
IMO, you still need to defend your RTs in one way or the other, or you are just paying with lame aliens
IMO, you still need to defend your RTs in one way or the other, or you are just paying with lame aliens <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A. depending on startershive this will be interesting. If its a far away hive (like mother in nancy) then you CAN take atleast 5 before any serious problem arises. (I do not think of skulk as a seriosu prob, we are in a squad of course)
B. RTs do get eaten but we simply put them back. If you DO have a far away starters hive you can perfectly starve them from 5 min in the game. Let them all try to chew down one RT, we will get it back.
C. Of course all these RTs will get lotsa res and hell, we WILL get upgrades. Just not in the first few minutes. But the better the team does the faster we got more RTs, the faster they get upgrades. Fades vs shotty. I am willing to sacrifice a few shotties to finish there only fade, seeing them starve on 2 RTs.
I will show you your defense. *points @ rines* there they walk. Perfect strong mobile defense. Armor upgrades will help them greatly in there cause.
Now what if they HAVE a close starters hive?
Just see how lockdown goes. Try to lock alot of remote RTs down. Alot of comms simply let themselves be starved. I never. Splitting your team might be a good idea for counter tactics. And yes, in such a cause I urge to build upgrades faster.
All of you asume the strat means no upgrades..THINK.. I aint stupid, of course we have upgrades lateron. But the only thing whihc will hurt anytime soon is a fade. And if I pass out 3 shotties and they can't even get one stupid fade we deserve to die.
after two mins to four mins, I usualy make a full on base, cause now I got like 4-6 rts,
heres my stats:
1rt=armory shoties rush hive, win or lose
2rts=armory, obs upgrading phase
3rts=armory, arms lab-upgrading armor, obs-upgrading phase
4rts=armory upgrading, arms lab-upgrading armor, obs upgrading phase
5rts= amrory up, 2 arms lab uping, obs uping
6rts = armry, up 2 arms labs up, 2 obs uping
7rts = all upping, and electing a few
8 rts = all uping, and electing a few + shoties
9 rts = shotys, all uping, all electing
10rts = all uping, all elect, shoties, and a few turret farms
11rts+ Im doing everything, plust getting ready to seige a hive
hera has like 12 nodes
Not talking bout the stats but about the move out thingy. lol.
the stat is personal based. The beauty of the FOOD principle is that if they DO follow orders they don't die and get all these nifty upgrades cause we have plenty of res. How a com does that is his calling.
I also did this on hera once.
Won on mother hive as start. With easy. Food secured a win for me within 5 min.
Another match they had sub and I lsot brutally. Rines did not keep each others back and the skulks were back fast.
I aint saying this strat is the best, but I say it is the best if you make the first few minutes. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I use. here is some food. go get me the stuff and you can have even more!
now they tastte it a lttle bit.
If you never taste a $100 steak. youll never want it. after you taste it. youll want it more and more and more
Aslong as they actually start listening. After all, its FollowOrdersOrDie.
Aslong as they follow orders they get stuff. Does it really matter if tis before or after? I prefer after, its better vs idiots. But hey, if they follow orders.. help them live. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
the food principle is an excellent way to motivate ur marines and get u bannded and ejected at the same time.
i see many others have came to the same conclusion as i TIME, yes time is of the essence in this game
u must get upgrades faster than ur enemy u must get ha before they get fades but one thing u must do is SECURE UR BASE!
if u cannot secure your base u will die, if ur marines cannot spawn in peace without being molested u will die.
as soon as aliens realise u are relocating they are going to munch down every res node u have built **** the surrounding area and restrict your growth as a commander and as a team.
basicly i never relocate ever my basic principle and philosophy is to get 1 more res node than the aliens in the game, if it means u have to cut corners ie no armoury at the start of the game or 1 ip at the start of the game then that is not a problem.
personally i think this could and couldnt work just really depends on the team work of both sides
the slsh and burn method is a much better approach to the FOOD philosphy were by u REWARD your marines for doing good deads and punis those that are sitting in spawn
( ie in earlier versions i use to drop turrets on them wait til they type kill then recycle and drop another on them <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
i personally think that a good option is to move out rapidly securing res nodes at the start then hunker in beef up defensis at critical areas and choke points and out res and out upgrade the aliens.
I use. here is some food. go get me the stuff and you can have even more!
now they tastte it a lttle bit.
If you never taste a $100 steak. youll never want it. after you taste it. youll want it more and more and more <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Itchy. Tasty.
LMFAO.
Anyways, I'm interested in participating in this strategy sometime. Hopefully more commanders try to do something new.
What Sypher_aka is so true. it depends on the team for this to work. naggers ruin it aswell.
This strategy, while interesting and possibly effective, requires you to be a leniant and nicey-nice commander.
Working on the basis of 'marines listening to you and they get the goods' is not as reliable as 'marines listening to you just because you're the comm'. You shouldn't be telling them "No, i'm not giving you guys an armory until we get atleast 5 RTs". It should be "Move out. get me RTs". No motivation, no reward, if they listen, they will win. Simple concept.
As many have stated, time is a HUGE factor in NS. Nothing but rts in the first 1 - 2 minutes? This mirrors the TF+electrification+ip bases that everyone shuns so much now. Simply stated, you save time on building up base, and thus that time is used for capping rts, but you LOSE out on time teching up your marines. You can have 100 billion res, but you can't make that armory upgrade any faster.
Why so much emphasis on rts? Rts are MUCH less important to marines than to aliens. 3 - 4 rts for marines is considered a very good situation (assuming you also keep thier rts down). Since res is pooled in the marine res system, small numbers of marine rts active is great. Since the alien's res is spread out between each of them, and an evolution is required, rts are much more important to aliens. Of course the more the better, but in a realistic game situation, its hard to keep more than 4 rts.
also what if they skulk rush your base? A relocation would be fine, but that already infringes on the basic concepts that this strat was created for: time and res. You waste time by relocating somewhere and having your marines build; you waste time by having to wait even LONGER to put down your armory, you waste time by having to respawn then get back in the chair, and you waste res by relocating.
Whats wrong with having one or two marines stay at base to build? Order 5 of your marines to move out for nodes, have two stay to build base. After the main group is gone, and out of humping range, put down the ip, armory and the rest: No humping, You get your base up, and the only downside is that, after your first res node you may have to wait to put down your second, but if you think about it, the time you save by starting up a base early is doubly beneficial because you can upgrade things that take a long time to upgrade (ie Advanced Armory) any time you want, instead of having to wait for someone to die to build the armory.
The basics of the FOOD strat is: Save Time, Save Res, Get more res, Get marines to listen.
The basics of the strat just stated:
Save time:
-> More than half of your marines move to to get res nodes immediately. Two more marines are not going to make a HUGE difference. If not, then just have one stay back to build base. There, you've got your time for your RTs. And you gain time by setting up a base early and getting the upgrades faster than if you had gotten them all to move out to get res nodes.
Save res:
-> this strategy does not save res. In fact, it should leave you constantly into the 0 - 15 res range. But hell, if you're not planning to do a full equipment suitup for your marines, then why are you saving? Your res is not truely yours until you spend it. You also don't have to spend 30+ res keeping your marines med and ammo'd up.
Get res: 5-6 marines getting nodes + killing skulks + killing nodes. I think that'll give you a nice res advantage.
Get Marines to listen: I don't think anything will get them to listen than for them to think that they know what thier comm is doing. Marines not only want equipment, they want to win. If they think they have a comm thats going to win it for them, they'll listen. If you don't have a base after one minute, chances are you're going to be ejected, because they think you don't know what you're doing (which might not be the case!). Upgrades make marines happy. Motion tracking makes marines happy. Armories make marines happy. Keep your marines happy, and they will listen to you.
But of course, i'm not bashing the strat itself. I'd like to try this strat sometime, just for a change in pace. But in no way do i see this strat being adopted by comms everywhere.
Good job in writing it~
Since I am crap at writing let me try to explain some more.
Save time:
>let to rines stay @ base<
on big teams indeed a valuable tactic. I just thoughed bout smaller teams where I need all my man.
Save res:
While its true that for a few seconds your less is around 15 all those RTs will give you insane res soon. In terms of time, you just gained res. I called it save but its better named gained.
Get res: >5-6 marines getting nodes + killing skulks + killing nodes. I think that'll give you a nice res advantage.<
my team is usually only 5 man, thats why i ignore base man.
Get Marines to listen: I never say, do this or you get nothing. I just say "get RTs"
if they don't listen I leave CC and say you do it. point is that I give them stuff when they need it, like medpacks. Rines just listening and getting medpacks when listening get motivated even more.
Also to your other points (good points)
we will have a IP inbase. Since I doubt not even 1 rine gets ambushed we will have someone returning to base to build. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
if not I indeed will order one to backtrack to base. Either he makes it or he dies, both ways he is where he should be. base.
teching up will start as soon as someone returned to base, I prefer to time this with 2 RTs up. If skulks attack base, LET THEM. Ok, I am not in favor for relocs, hate it, but right now.. its PERFECT. Think of it:
one skulk: ip was placed AS FAR AWAY from the CC as possible. nail him yourself.
more skulks: You are taking hives, rts, THERE rts aswell and they chew down a stupid IP? And then move to chew on your CC? I mean, WTH? Simply reloc the second they start chewing on the CC, maybe even if they just chew the IP. Your rines made good meters, you should have found a great place to base up. Can take MS for beacon lateron.
If they want to lose why you reloc to a perfect place, why not? they waste time, you don't. 5 rines building on a CC makes it build so fast I hardly call it a timeloss.
you are right, RTs are way more important for kharaa. But as the ferengi say, more is good.. all is better, goal is to techup with 2 more Rts, not never. Also you now got such insane resflow that in reality it goes faster. you can even make 2 armslabs, using them both. Of course recycling one lateron.
When I comm, I flip out on Marines. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> I'm a very impatient person when it comes to getting others to do things. Sometimes I just wish I could drop them an acid rocket as easily as ammo, or slip some cyanide into that medpack.. and how about metal razor blades in the armory holes?