New Sensory Ideas
Haze
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Because "Sens stil sux"</div> I already posted this in the Suggestions and Ideas forums, but I dont think those are visited by the majority of the playtesters, vets, consties and serious players as much...
Sensory still hasnt become a viable strat as a hive 1 chamber. This needs to change if playing aliens becomes a bit more versitle. I've got a couple ideas.
<ul><li>Make Focus nullify all the marines upgrades for the upgraded alien instead of do more damage. What I mean is, if the alien has focus, then the marines upgrades become useless, and dont effect the alien/attacked marine. So if an alien with focus is shot with level 3 weapons, he takes damage from level 0 weapons, and if an alien attacks a level 3 armor marine, he does damage as if the marine has level 0 armor. I dont know how this could be coded, but it runs along the lines of the sensory chambers upgrades not using brute force, or speed, and instead clever and cunning to take out the enemy. </li><li>Make sensory chambers <b>CHEAPER.</b> This is a chamber that needs to be scattered throughout the map in order to function to the best of its ability, instead of the "drop and forget" chambers of DC and MC. I say lowering its cost to a value between 6 and 8 would do it. </li><li>Make it so that three or two sensory chambers in one area counters an obs decloaking effect. (The three or two value really depends on what the cost of the sensory may be lowered to. If its cheap, three, if its more expensive (like 8) then its two) Its a pain in the rear that the chambers main ability is completly nullified when just one building is placed down. ~To counter this, give the observatory a new ability -- constant scan. This ability scans one time on the on the obs itself at one minute intervals, or whenever the energy is sufficent after the one minute mark.. The scan doesnt have as much range as the normal scan, and costs less energy to "create" the scan itself. And lower the obs cost a tiny bit so that it can be placed more often since the sensory will be able to be placed more commonly, with <b>its</b> lowered price.</li></ul>
These ideas I feel will add a new stealth demension to the aliens and counters to the marines, giving more ways to play NS itself. The new focus should give an intresting twist to the game and the marines upgrades, and also make marines 3/3 less overpowering.
Sensory still hasnt become a viable strat as a hive 1 chamber. This needs to change if playing aliens becomes a bit more versitle. I've got a couple ideas.
<ul><li>Make Focus nullify all the marines upgrades for the upgraded alien instead of do more damage. What I mean is, if the alien has focus, then the marines upgrades become useless, and dont effect the alien/attacked marine. So if an alien with focus is shot with level 3 weapons, he takes damage from level 0 weapons, and if an alien attacks a level 3 armor marine, he does damage as if the marine has level 0 armor. I dont know how this could be coded, but it runs along the lines of the sensory chambers upgrades not using brute force, or speed, and instead clever and cunning to take out the enemy. </li><li>Make sensory chambers <b>CHEAPER.</b> This is a chamber that needs to be scattered throughout the map in order to function to the best of its ability, instead of the "drop and forget" chambers of DC and MC. I say lowering its cost to a value between 6 and 8 would do it. </li><li>Make it so that three or two sensory chambers in one area counters an obs decloaking effect. (The three or two value really depends on what the cost of the sensory may be lowered to. If its cheap, three, if its more expensive (like 8) then its two) Its a pain in the rear that the chambers main ability is completly nullified when just one building is placed down. ~To counter this, give the observatory a new ability -- constant scan. This ability scans one time on the on the obs itself at one minute intervals, or whenever the energy is sufficent after the one minute mark.. The scan doesnt have as much range as the normal scan, and costs less energy to "create" the scan itself. And lower the obs cost a tiny bit so that it can be placed more often since the sensory will be able to be placed more commonly, with <b>its</b> lowered price.</li></ul>
These ideas I feel will add a new stealth demension to the aliens and counters to the marines, giving more ways to play NS itself. The new focus should give an intresting twist to the game and the marines upgrades, and also make marines 3/3 less overpowering.
Comments
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I still like the idea of stacking sensories/observatories.
If you put down a sensory, the marines have to put down an observatory to nullify the sensory. If you put down 2 sensories, the marines would need 2 observatories in the area to nullify them. This would be stackable with no limit. So putting down 6 sensories in an area would require marines to put down 6 observatories to nullify them.
The nullify upgrade would be a nice addition for oni.
with this i think what you are going to do is just transform DMS strat in SDM strat, sensory will always be used first, it will be even worst if its cheaper.
It will make sensory too powerfull, nullify all marines upgrades, wow, did you think more about this ?
so a marine with armor 3 and weapon lvl 3 will be killed as easily as a marine with no upgrade, sweat, so why take upgrades ? it don't like this idea at all.
Helps if you actually read his post...
As for the ideas, I like the concept of Focus nullifying arms lab upgrades, but it sounds just a bit overpowered. I'd prefer to see the "With each hive, a damage percentage is added to Melee attacks" idea playtested. This would give Hive 3 Aliens a bit more of an endgame edge, and keep Focus viable late game.
And Daxx, percentage increases would be very difficult to work out for aliens. Most aliens use relatively few attacks to kill marines(basically all attacks except Spores and Acid Rockets are high damage), so an increase that doesn't subtract one attack from the required amount does nothing. So that sensory upgrade would have to subtract one necessary attack per hive, which would be ludicrously powerful in combination with normal attack speed in the late game. A skulk would one-shot Level 3 LAs.
So at hive 1 a single lvl 3 focus skulk bite can kill a lvl 0 armour LA in 1 hit.
At hive 2 a single lvl 3 focus skulk bite can kill a lvl 1 armour LA in 1 hit
At hive 3 a single lvl 3 focus skulk bite can kill a lvl 2 armour LA in 1 hit.
Likewise in combat,
At Lvl 2 a single focus skulk bite can kill a lvl 0 armour LA in 1 hit.
At Lvl 5 a single focus skulk bite can kill a lvl 1 armour LA in 1 hit.
At Lvl 8 a single focus skulk bite can kill a lvl 2 armour LA in 1 hit. (Balanced since most players tend to have HA or JPs by this stage).
This makes focus viable in the late game because in its present state it becomes more of a liability as the game progresses.
I like your other ideas though. Especially cheaper sensories. IMO that should have been implemented long ago.
MCs are just about THE 2nd chamber; the hive teleportation and abilities are almost requirements for a 2 hive victory. Similarly in such a situation DCs are far too valuable to give up: strategic healing stations across the map plus awesome upgrades, regen being the quintessential choice.
An alien team understands that almost all games will have 2nd hive aliens fighting partially or fully upgraded marines. The 3rd hive really only arrives in end game when the marines have lost anyway (or bunkered down at their start/double res). Thus, an alien side must accept that they will be fighting with 2 of their 3 chambers. And DM is just so much more effective than DS or MS.
It's very important to note though that in Combat aliens get sensory upgrades all the time: focus, SOF and cloaking all get extensive use. Thus the problem isn't that the upgrades themselves are bad; it's that an alien side has to choose 2 chambers to work with in a Classic game, and SCs lose out to DCs and MCs.
The focus idea sounds like a perfect way to make SCs more viable in Classic, as it provides an alien with offensive and defensive capabilities and, most importantly, base-busting ability. The current focus is all well and good, but no Onos is going to want to pass up regen or adren in order to get it. Coupled with cheaper sensories, this could really be a way to help the "whipping boy" of the chambers: the Sensory.
If you put down a sensory, the marines have to put down an observatory to nullify the sensory. If you put down 2 sensories, the marines would need 2 observatories in the area to nullify them. This would be stackable with no limit. So putting down 6 sensories in an area would require marines to put down 6 observatories to nullify them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So this means observatory costs will be reduced to sc value of 10 res? I think not. Not to mention getting motion tracking and/or phasegates will be a bit cheaper to get since observatory costs SHOULD be reduced to help marines counter a 10 sc stack.
A gorge with 100 res dropping 10 sc chambers around the map...marines have to use 100 res worth of obs to counter this....i think not.
Can you imagine the spam and the sheer annoyance of the situation? "Oi commander drop the 9th observatory they're still cloaked over here!" Not to mention the build radius now implemented for marine structures...
Heh, no.
If you put down a sensory, the marines have to put down an observatory to nullify the sensory. If you put down 2 sensories, the marines would need 2 observatories in the area to nullify them. This would be stackable with no limit. So putting down 6 sensories in an area would require marines to put down 6 observatories to nullify them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So this means observatory costs will be reduced to sc value of 10 res? I think not. Not to mention getting motion tracking and/or phasegates will be a bit cheaper to get since observatory costs SHOULD be reduced to help marines counter a 10 sc stack.
A gorge with 100 res dropping 10 sc chambers around the map...marines have to use 100 res worth of obs to counter this....i think not.
Can you imagine the spam and the sheer annoyance of the situation? "Oi commander drop the 9th observatory they're still cloaked over here!" Not to mention the build radius now implemented for marine structures...
Heh, no. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of dropping multiple observatories, you can add a "Power Upgrade" for the selected observatory. Upgrading the power to level 2 would nullify 2 sensories in the area, level 3 would nullify 3 sensories in the area, etc.
As for the annoyance factor, you can put a cap on the max level so you wouldn't have to worry about 10 sensories.
This would make all your points no longer an issue.
If I would make a change to how the SC functions, it would be this: make scan reveal buildings only in a SC cloaking field. Aliens have invisibility in a SC field unless they take damage or attack.
If they have level 0 armor you can own them true, but aliens never HAD problems killing level 0 marines. If a marine has level 1 armor (this is usually complete at about 2:30 minutes into the gam) then you are breaking even with focus, the first bite takes the same time as 2 bites and the seond bite kills at the same time as the third bite would have without focus. So I just bought 30 res worth of upgrade chambers, and spent 2 res per life on focus, and it does exactly the same damage to my primary target as if I never spent any of that res and just saved for onos?
The idea of nullifying upgrades is on the right track sort of, but not quite. For one thing, sensory should not affect how much damage the alien receives, we already have carapace for that. As for sensory nullifying marine armor upgrades, that may be an interesting idea, In my opinion equally upgraded aliens and marines should compare about the same as if they never got any upgrades at all. That way the goal is to get ahead of your enemy on upgrades, (starcraft is probably the best example of this, upgraded units compare to each other similarly, but if one side has upgrades and the other doesnt, the non-tech side will get murdered even with bigger units). The problem is sensory is "instant" where marine upgrades are leveled throughout the game. So the costs and research times are totally out of whack for sensory to nullify all that armor it would have to be much more expensive.
Personally I would like to see alien upgrades be more "leveled" in 99.9% of games aliens go straight for level 0 to level 3, why even have levels at all?
I say make alien upgrades stronger per level, but take 2 or 3 chambers to increase the level.
and about what breakfast was saying, maybe we need to drop 2 chambers per level? it would kinda suck for mc's though, because you usually dont drop more than 3 or 4 now that they removed making oc's fire faster! *curses under breath*
but 6 dc's are pretty feasable mid-game, but not early game, 60 res to get an extra bullet per skulk? :O? but it would be a perfectly acceptable cost mid game. well, sorta acceptable, when people are onosing, its reasonable to assume you can drop a couple chambers, perhaps if chamber prices were reduced slightly? to 8 perhaps? it would be much more tempting to get cloaking, or at lev 3 sc, focus, for skulks, (and im not getting into the whole obs-decloak-buildings thing, i think thats fine the way it is)
I'd like to point out the current uses of SC.
- Cloak coupled with focus can be a very dangerous combo! Just walk on the ceiling while cloaked, then jump down behind the marine and bite. You are guaranteed the first hit and by the time he has turned, you land the second hit.
- Focus partially replaces adrenalin. With focus, skulks and onos will kill buildings without running out of energy. It is especially important for onos to take out phasegates, TFs and turrets.
- When skillfully placed, SCs can survive for a very long time. Surely, marines can knife through every corner in search of SCs. But it is often possible to build in places where marines can't reach them. Only way to find them is to scan the area.
- Aliens don't need silence - To be silent they can walk. Use it like explained above and you will be COMPLETELY invisible to marines. Walking is probably one thing, that should be improved in NS. When pressing "shift" and walking, i sometimes hear movement sounds.
Sensory can be a very powerful first chamber (but is very weak as 2nd chamber). Its benefits a tremendous in the beginning of the game: If a gorge will manage to place a sensory chamber at a marine exit, a couple of skulks could block of the area completely. With focus, lvl 0 marines will fall in one hit. Yet if the commander decides to go for lvl 1 armor, he won't get an observatory or many resource towers.
This strategy doesn't work on pubs at all, because one alien just can't put 3 SCs quickly. The whole team would have to move together to block of the marines early on and THEN put up RTs. NS seems to be two different games when played in public servers and in clans.
From the "If You Can't Take This Forum..., ...then don't read it" webbed topic:<!--QuoteBegin-Flayra+Aug 5 2003, 12:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Aug 5 2003, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Anyone that says the aliens are weak, or that the game is totally balanced, obviously hasn't done any of the things I mentioned above. Aliens are soundly beating marines in 9 out of 10 <b>competitive </b>games, and this is due to a couple last minute changes we made at the end of our private beta. The game that had finally gotten balanced near the end, was no longer as fun as it should've been, so we took the risk and traded balance for fun. That's what 2.0 is. It's fun, but not balanced yet. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a while back, but I think it can still be applied here. Right now the game is balanced for the "competitive" games. If you want to improve your NS experience, join a clan and start working on strategies as a whole team. Play as a team and beat pubbers with sensory not just because of your aim skill but because of inteligence and team play.
Sens needs a way to kill elec, plain and simple. Adren and Regen let you, but sens doesn't.
Aliens always have to pay attention to marine's movement, so SoF upgrade helps there a lot. Just look out for the red dots where they are not supposed to be - the one dot may be building a phasegate so that soon 10 dots will appear next to the hive.
Oh, btw, sensory favors skulks more than any other species so its another reason to get it early. Cloaked skulks have the least size but also the least hit points so it is especially important for them to get close to the opponent. Once HAs come around, sensory becomes useless. So sensory requires aliens to act quickly.
Anyone that says the aliens are weak, or that the game is totally balanced, obviously hasn't done any of the things I mentioned above. Aliens are soundly beating marines in 9 out of 10 <b>competitive </b>games, and this is due to a couple last minute changes we made at the end of our private beta. The game that had finally gotten balanced near the end, was no longer as fun as it should've been, so we took the risk and traded balance for fun. That's what 2.0 is. It's fun, but not balanced yet. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a while back, but I think it can still be applied here. Right now the game is balanced for the "competitive" games. If you want to improve your NS experience, join a clan and start working on strategies as a whole team. Play as a team and beat pubbers with sensory not just because of your aim skill but because of inteligence and team play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that was about 2.0. Aliens were a bit overpowered, in pubs, in 2.01. This is 3.0. Aliens have been over-nerfed and now marine wins are the norm in pubs. And alien wins, when they happen are because the marine team makes some big mistake that the aliens quickly exploit. On even ground, marines win more often now in the current beta. (basing this on regular pub play across several pubs peopled with generally good players along with the usually scattering of newbies)
Although this might probably nullify prarsite which imo is underused.
Anyways just another idea to put into the foray for how to help sens as a first /second chamber.
(not intending to hijak thread just an idea)
Mee too. Sensory costs too much. It must be placed as a network throught the map to be efective as soon as possible. It's the first OR the last chamber.
Incase it's the first chamber, the marines don't yet have armory upgrades and motion. This is the time when it's most effective.
- juho
If we lowered SC costs to make up for its rather passive (and IMO, useless cloaking upgrade) abilities, then it might be used more often. Right now its just too expensive for its use.
I dont like the obs not decloaking things, cus thats the counter to sens. What about the good old totally nullifying motion tracking upgrade? Haven't heard that one for a while. It would fit in with sens and has had some support in the past. Thoughts?
The problem is that sensory is a passive technology. To really be effective you're just sitting around waiting for a marine to come by so you can surprise him and kill him. When the marines throw up a phase gate outside your hive, drop a TF in and threaten to seige your hive, sensory isn't going to do you any good.
I don't have any solutions as to how to "fix" sensory, I'm not sure that it's really possible. I do like the idea of lowering the cost, no matter how you look at it, sensory needs to be spread out a lot, and lowering the cost is the only way to really make that possible.
In the end though, I think sensory is always going to be relegated to the last choice.
- Zues
Also, SoF reavealed marines should appear to all other aliens as well. Scanned aliens the comm finds are shown to all marines on minimap so why not same for aliens? This fits in with the theme of aliens having "textless comminication" they share what they can see, without having to yell "3 marines over here help!!" "Where???" "HERHEHRE" etc.
Make sens chambers show marines nearby on Hivesight like they used to, that way they would be far more usefull.