<!--QuoteBegin-PseudoKnight+Feb 17 2004, 04:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Feb 17 2004, 04:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay, I'm going to take a stab at some of the issues that were brought up here. Maybe we can come up with a solution together.
<b>Problem: F4 Bad Sportsmanship?</b> <b>Possible Solution(s):</b> - Give drama to retreating by use of F4 with appropriate text (ie. "TSA has retreated" or something similar) and appropriate end-game sounds (ie. "Emergency evacuation siren/alerts"). Basically make winning by F4 more rewarding. It is a defeat by demoralization, afterall. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I love this idea! So much more rewarding than simply appearing in the readyroom and wondering what happened.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Feb 18 2004, 12:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Feb 18 2004, 12:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-PseudoKnight+Feb 17 2004, 04:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Feb 17 2004, 04:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay, I'm going to take a stab at some of the issues that were brought up here. Maybe we can come up with a solution together.
<b>Problem: F4 Bad Sportsmanship?</b> <b>Possible Solution(s):</b> - Give drama to retreating by use of F4 with appropriate text (ie. "TSA has retreated" or something similar) and appropriate end-game sounds (ie. "Emergency evacuation siren/alerts"). Basically make winning by F4 more rewarding. It is a defeat by demoralization, afterall. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love this idea! So much more rewarding than simply appearing in the readyroom and wondering what happened. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ya, it's a legitimate defeat. Why have it so anti-climatic? It needs some win feedback!
A lot of good posts here... (and thanks for the welcomes)
I just wanted to remind people that I posted POTENTIAL in front of my solutions since they were just what came to me off the top of my head and were intended to foster discussion. (so don't flip out over any of them)
On the issue of resources, the idea of an 'upkeep' cost for the res system is ineresting. Perhaps not as a solution to the problem I described, but interesting on its own merits. The only problem I see with it is that it makes commanding that much more complex, and commanding is hard enough already.
One of my other thoughts to the sensory issue is improve focus. Right now it is only a one bite kill until marines get armor 2. At that point they need two bites which may as well be 20 bites. That's why you rarely see peole bother with it outside of combat.
If shotties can one shot kill ANY low-level alien (skulk/lerk/gorge) then I don't see why a focus skulk/lerk/fade/onos shouldn't be able to one bite kill ANY light marine regardless of their armor level. The counter for this would be heavy armor.
This would not be unbalanced since skulks can one bite kill marines in the early game as it is now, and that hasn't become an issue.
On the topic of F4, while the ideas are interesting, I would tend to rather avoid the situation that causes F4 instead of making F4 more palatable. Flayra has said he didn't want to put a 'resign' option into the game, so I don't htink he will want to go down this road...
"If shotties can one shot kill ANY low-level alien (skulk/lerk/gorge) then I don't see why a focus skulk/lerk/fade/onos shouldn't be able to one bite kill ANY light marine regardless of their armor level. The counter for this would be heavy armor."
Excellent analogy, (i believe that is the correct term) and a great idea. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
however, you must remember that aliens != marines. the marines have to pay 10 res each time + armory cost to allow marines to use shotguns, aliens simply need to plop down 3 SC and spend 2 res each life. I would like to see the onos gore power increased so that is true for sure though.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Considering that a lvl 3 marine takes 270 hits to kill, you would need 135 unfocused damage .. which is exactly 50% more damage than the 90 the onos does now. Probably a tad TOO much.
Bw, a skulk will only kill lvl 0 armored marines with one bite. As soon as the marines gets lvl 1 armor, a focus skulk need 2 bites to kill him.
I wish focus was replaced with a "frenzy" ability:
Increased ROF, increased adrenaline costs. Since it has nothing to do with damage, it can apply to all abilities. No 1-hit-kill messiness. It makes sense as a sensory upgrade in that frenzied aliens are basically on crack <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If alien res income was <i>t / 6 </i> per cycle instead of <i>t / n</i>* per cycle, it would be a bit fairer, IMO. Since it's supposed to be balanced for 6v6, I don't see why the kharaa should suffer for being in a server with more players. This would mean that the kharaa could make do with 3 RTs in a pinch, the same way the marines can, although it's not ideal.
Also, bulk up the gorge a tiny bit - not so that he's a mini-onos, but so that putting up an RT isn't quite so risky. As it is, gorges can't afford to come near any "hot" zones as they die quite quickly to just one marine. Against two marines the gorge should be toast, but just one, he should be able to hold his own until backup arrives.
These two changes wouldn't sort everything out, but it might give aliens a slight boost when they're not doing so well.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>*Where t = number of RTs and n = number of players. </span>
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Feb 17 2004, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Feb 17 2004, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know...you don't always have to build 3 Sens chambers. At Hive 3, if you just want to improve your attack power, you could always build just 1 or 2. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's just silly, though. Building multiple upgrade chambers should always be good. All three should in all ways be better than two or one. And only building a few would hurt those that actually want to use cloaking or SoF. It seems the way to make focus useful would be to increase damage and decrease rate of fire at the same percentages, so that you will over time deal equal damage to anything you attack.
Actually, taking that a step further, I've always thought it was rather silly to call focus an upgrade when it really just compresses two bites (a little less than two, but for the sake of argument) into one bite, and then slow down to compensate. Effectively, it counters itself. It's not an upgrade, as that would actually improve your attack. It's just a sort of redistribution of existing damage dealing ability. An upgrade would actually... well, UPGRADE something. None of the other upgrades slow you down, or do damage to you, or in any way adversely effect you. Why should this one?
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Feb 19 2004, 11:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Feb 19 2004, 11:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If shotties can one shot kill ANY low-level alien (skulk/lerk/gorge) then I don't see why a focus skulk/lerk/fade/onos shouldn't be able to one bite kill ANY light marine regardless of their armor level. The counter for this would be heavy armor. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Killing a skulk in one shot is difficult
Killing a lerk in one shot (without upgrades) is very difficult
Killing a gorge in one shot is impossible, gorges have too much health
Also, some numbers for you Savant:
- All a marine needs is lv. 1 armor to prevent being one hit killed - 2 Bites is nothing close to 20 bites, following up on the second bite isn't that difficult, just stay focused on the marine and you can kill him - Heavy armor is extreame late game for the marines, and is comparable to the onos, focus comes into the game as fast as the aliens want it. - Focus also shaves off all of the armor of a marine, meaning he will die very easily. If you do not know the effects of having armor vs. not having armor, I suggest you do some research, the difference is AMAZING on how much armor will save your butt.
<a href='http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>Damage Simulator for more numbers</a>
So really, having focus killing in one hit all the time makes no sense, getting armor upgrades takes time and money, you make it sound like it's free. Also, by going with armor you forgo weaponry. And don't say getting two arms labs will allow you to get both at the same time, it's way too expensive to even consider that in most situations.
I'm still going to champion the dropping of only a single Sens chamber. In my mind Focus level 1 is the best after Marines get Armor1, which means any game where you don't go Sens first.
It may be annoying that the higher levels of Focus are not necessarily better than lower levels, but then again you've all noticed already the highest level isnt necessarily better than no focus at all, so it shouldnt be that much of a surprise. So go forth and get level 1 Focus! I command thee!
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Feb 17 2004, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Feb 17 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would agree that lagre games (10v10 and up) require a lot more effort out of Aliens to compete, while small games (3v3 and down) are harder on the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice coverage of a complex topic.
I think the problem of large games could be mitigated, at least, by two changes:
1. The alien starting hive functions as 2 IPs (Firewater's idea; I'm just repeating it).
I'm not clear on how to fix small games. Maybe by decreasing the research cost for key marine upgrades (HA/HMG), but increasing the per-unit buy costs.
Simply reducing the upgrade time on the armory would help marine small games a huge amount. I actually do pretty well commanding in tiny marine games, and a large part of it comes down to racing to get the first JP/HMG in time to kill the first Onos that appears. If you can do that you can fight on even terms.
Res usually flows pretty easily even for marines in these tiny games, so reducing Armory upgrade time without touching the costs would grant more flexibility to the marine early game while making it easier to reach that tech threshold for defending from the inevitable Onos.
Make marines have to counter what chamber the aleins get.
As it is now marines follow the same build order every game. There is no reason for them to deviate fromt this beaten road. If focus is a one hit kill all the time then a good commander would know not to get armor upgrades first, but to get weapon upgrades so that the marines can kill the un-carapaced skulk before they get to them.
Thers not enough counters in this game that are seriously hardcore. Dont sit there and tell me that jet packs > onos because they have to land every 2 seconds = dead jp.
There are absolutly NO hard counters that FORCE the other team to go out of their way to compensate.
in warcraft 3 if your enemy goes mass gyrocopters agiasnt your mass chims they lose, but in ns you could have an entire team of fades and 2-3 shotguns will own them all.
I WAS going to write out detailed hard counters but flays gonna do what ever he wants to anyway. This is the reason the S&I forum is pointless.
<!--QuoteBegin-NightCrawler.+Feb 19 2004, 11:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NightCrawler. @ Feb 19 2004, 11:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Make marines have to counter what chamber the aleins get.
As it is now marines follow the same build order every game. There is no reason for them to deviate fromt this beaten road. If focus is a one hit kill all the time then a good commander would know not to get armor upgrades first, but to get weapon upgrades so that the marines can kill the un-carapaced skulk before they get to them.
Thers not enough counters in this game that are seriously hardcore. Dont sit there and tell me that jet packs > onos because they have to land every 2 seconds = dead jp.
There are absolutly NO hard counters that FORCE the other team to go out of their way to compensate.
in warcraft 3 if your enemy goes mass gyrocopters agiasnt your mass chims they lose, but in ns you could have an entire team of fades and 2-3 shotguns will own them all.
I WAS going to write out detailed hard counters but flays gonna do what ever he wants to anyway. This is the reason the S&I forum is pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Some of the counters are either too hard (e.g. JP vs. OCs) or too soft (e.g. JP vs. onos). Marine weaponry isn't diverse enough, which makes marines too versatile.
<!--QuoteBegin-NightCrawler.+Feb 19 2004, 08:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NightCrawler. @ Feb 19 2004, 08:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in warcraft 3 if your enemy goes mass gyrocopters agiasnt your mass chims they lose, but in ns you could have an entire team of fades and 2-3 shotguns will own them all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you have much right to talk about counters and balances. Gyrocopters are generally considered to be weak overall, but Chims are flat out incapable of fighting back against them, and the Gyros will rip them to shreds faster than you can blink, and then proceed to bomb your base.
If your entire team goes fade and they have 2-3 shotguns, you have a serious upper hand, but because this is an FPS as well as an RTS, there is always a possibility they could win just through sheer FPS skill. For example, I just sent out a crew of Shotgun/HMG/HMG/GL who, despite medspam, all got torn to pieces inside of 10 seconds by a single Fade without getting any kills along the way.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 19 2004, 06:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 19 2004, 06:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Killing a skulk in one shot is difficult
Killing a lerk in one shot (without upgrades) is very difficult<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You've GOT to be kidding right? Killing a skulk with a shotgun is difficult? LOL, gimme a break. ...and this coming from a VET? How embarassing for you. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I consider myself an above average player. Not as skilled as some of the super talented players, but I do fairly well. Killing a skulk with one shot using a shottie is one of the easiest things to do in this game. I have NO PROBLEM one-shot killing skulks with a shotgun, and only 1 in 10 attacks on me when I have a shotgun (in classic) ever result in my death - usually because I was careless. Often I can cap skulks from across the room with a shottie since even with the spray you don't need to connect with that many pellets. The shottie usually pays for itself with kills.
A LVL 0 shotgun only needs to conect with 6/10 pellets, and an upgraded shottie of any LVL only needs to connect with 4/10 pellets for a one shot kill. That's a less than 50% accuracy ratio and you are telling me that it is DIFFICULT? Com'on, how about some intellectual honesty here for a change.
Focus kill would give aliens a definate choice for sensory, and marines would have to counter it with ammo upgrades to take advantage of the skulk's crappy armor rating. It makes perfect sense to balance one against the other.
Marines will adapt to the change alike anythintg else. Far too many marines rush off ramboing the map and get away with it when Flayra himself has said he feels that marines should HAVE to use teamwork. Seems to me that this would fit his design quite well. A group of marines would make quick work of any skulk (focus or not) before they could get close.
Taking focus early would also cause aliens to make a VERY difficult choice for second chamber. Do they get defense and lose out on using MCs to travel between hives and for adren fades/lerks, or do they get MC and lose out on the benefits of redempt and regen instead?
One bite kills for all levels of focus (for light marines) would make this game a HECK of a lot more interesting than the same old DMS that we see every round.
A more powerful focus wouldn't be enough incentive to go SC first, in my eyes. The trouble is that:
<span style='color:red'>1) </span>you need DC to win. I have <i>very </i>rarely seen an alien win that has not involved the use of DC (i.e. a win with 2 hives with SC/MC), and hearing of one is even rarer. Why is this?
<span style='color:green'>a) </span>DCs are essential to higher lifeforms. Given the one-shot nature of the evolutions (expensive, no refunds, and no guarentee that you'll rake in enough via RfK), you need the DC abilities to give yourself staying power. An onos without regeneration or carapace is taken out of the field alarmingly quickly.
<span style='color:green'>b) </span>They are useful throughout the course of the game, and enhance those skulks who like to rush on in <i>and </i>those who like to ambush. The nature of alien tech means there's no sure fire chance that you'll be able to secure other hives without a tough fight. As such, it's best to get them first just in case you need to get a couple of fades to take the fight to the 'rines.
<span style='color:green'>c) </span>It's a lot harder to defend your territory when you have to keep running back to the gorge/hive for healing. This means that the marines can slowly encroach and whittle you down.
<span style='color:red'>2)</span> MC is best for second hive. Although it's still good as first hive due to its rather excellent upgrades, its chamber power* doesn't make much difference at first hive. And although its upgrades are very useful, they're not <i>quite </i>as quite on their own for higher lifeforms - a celerity onos/fade is riskier than a regen/carapace onos/fade, no?
My suggestions would be: 1) a) give all aliens natural regeneration (just not as effective as the DC version). When they're out of combat and not moving, the rate could improve, so that it's good for hit and run, but it's not ideal in a combat situation.
b) & c) make it so that RTs or all of the upgrade chambers heal (as the DC currently does). DCs reduce damage by a certain amount in their radius instead. (SCs, MCs, and SCs would heal at half the current DCs rate in the latter suggestion).
2) Have it so that MCs act like PGs do. This way, it would be useful at first hive, too; you could quickly retreat back to the hive for healing.
<i><span style='font-family:Times'><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>*Yeah, I'm aware it gives energy, too, but that's not useful in most cases.</span></span></i>
Natural regeneration is an extremely good idea. id suggest that all aleins get a lvl 1 regeneration. And that the skill regeneration would be scraped and replaced with.
Intimidate:
lvl 1: 10% that an attack will stun for .7 seconds lvl 2: 20% that an attack will stun for .7 seconds lvl 3: 30% that an attack will stun for .7 seconds
-OR-
Disarm:
lvl 1: 10% chance to make a marine drop his current weapon lvl 2: 15% chance to make a marine drop his current weapon lvl 3: 20% chance to make a marine drop his current weapon
-OR-
Fear:
lvl 1 : 25% chance that your primary attack will cause a conc gren like effect lvl 2 : 50% lvl 3 : 100% lasts 1 second at all levels.
Lets see those crack bunnies jump around and shoot now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You've GOT to be kidding right? Killing a skulk with a shotgun is difficult? LOL, gimme a break. ...and this coming from a VET? How embarassing for you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Face it, Savant. For the majority of players out there getting a one-hit kill before the skulk gets in range to kill you is difficult. I'm not sure whether it's the new hitbox and/or the net-code but it's become difficult in 3.0 beta. I often hit point-blank perfectly into them and they survive. So, it's not necessarily a lack of skill that's causing this. How this applies to the discussion, I'm not sure, but don't insult him because you're not experiencing this issue.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Feb 16 2004, 04:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Feb 16 2004, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Potential solution: -I'd like to see certain upgrades tied into territorial control. For example, armour and ammo upgrades could be tied to the number of nodes held. So to get armour/ammo 1 the marines would need to have possession of TWO res nodes. For armour/ammo 2 they would need FOUR res nodes, and for armour/ammo 3 they would need to control SIX res nodes. Additionally we could put in that marines need to have control of a hive in order to build a proto lab or advanced armoury. If they don't control a hive they would not be able to use the proto lab or hand out heavy weapons from the armoury. In this way marines would be rewarded for controlling territory. Aliens on the other hand would be able to weaken marines by taking out res nodes. Right now there is a minor incentive to take out marine res nodes, but if the marines strength was tied to the number they held, you would see more battles over res nodes. Same for hives. If the marines could be weakened by aliens taking territory from them, you would see fewer stalemates, not to mention better gameplay.
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Huge thread, good points. On this one, I made a suggestion similar to this, a long time ago. However requiring that many nodes is a tad harsh. For the most part, just requiring the Marines to hold a Max of 3 res nodes would serve this purpose. My previous proposal was this:
No res node requirement to set down and build buildings. However, For the Arms lab to provide its upgrades, Motion Tracking to be active, and an Advanced Armory to give out weapons, the Marines must hold two active res nodes. For a Proto Lab to be active and giving out Jetpacks/Heavy Armor, marines must hold three active res nodes.
This would help solve most base turtles. It might encourage more marine commanders to relocate to double node points, but the vast majority of double nodes on NS maps are horrible to defend, with multiple entrances and vents, so it would be a viable trade off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a) give all aliens natural regeneration (just not as effective as the DC version). When they're out of combat and not moving, the rate could improve, so that it's good for hit and run, but it's not ideal in a combat situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think an innate regeneration for aliens would do wonders to eliminate DMS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->b) & c) make it so that RTs or all of the upgrade chambers heal (as the DC currently does). DCs reduce damage by a certain amount in their radius instead. (SCs, MCs, and SCs would heal at half the current DCs rate in the latter suggestion).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's overreacting. Don't overnerf defense chambers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Have it so that MCs act like PGs do. This way, it would be useful at first hive, too; you could quickly retreat back to the hive for healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't like this idea. It eliminates one unique aspect of aliens (and of marines). Alternative: give the +use teleport ability to the hive. Movements will still have the ability, but they won't be as necessary as before at 2nd hive.
Nightcrawler, do you realize you'd be making defense even more powerful with those abilities? Regeneration is a defense ability. So if it's replaced, it must be replaced with a defense ability.
It's difficult to kill skulks and lerks in one shotgun blast, sure, but what most of you are ignoring is that there's people who are able to do so on a consistent basis. As long as the weapon even has the potential to be used in such a way, Savant's point stands. Not to say that I agree with him on Focus (or, in fact, most other things).
I do like the idea of a relatively weak innate kharaa regeneration, particularly one that kicks in only when immobile (as to keep the actual Regeneration ability more useful). Always did seem a little strange to me that the chamber which provides healing is the same one which provides Regeneration.
How about giving aliens attack upgrades per hive. Say first hive remains baseline, like it is now, possibly adjusted down for SOME classes, not all. Then second hive is a 5 or 10 or 15% increase in damage (numbers picked totally at random, ignore them) and then third hive again an increase in damage. This would make focus continue to be useful as the game progresses and would also help with those interminable end game stalemates. And it evens the sides out a bit, giving the aliens something comparable to the marine weapons 1,2,3 upgrades. This has already been done for armor, which I thought was a fine idea. Carrying it over to attack power seems like a logical step that could be balanced through testing. Then you have your third hive alien with focus still killing light marines in one hit, which sounds about right.
Perhaps instead, the third hive could give a substantial jump in attack power. I don't really think that there's an issue at two hives, and more damage then might cause more problems than it solves. But having three be a magic number, so to speak, would help get through bunkered marines. On the other hand, the marines could very well be attacking one hive as the last goes up, and that doesn't seem fair...
What really needs to be done before anything extreme is changed is that three-hive abilities need to not suck. That means blast damage back on xenocide, less "fun" AR, more and/or longer-lasting webs, perhaps a longer primal scream, and an insanely better charge. Maybe then things would begin to fix themselves.
At first, I have to say that NS makes me somehow agressive when playing, since it has some aspects that let a team win before the game has come to an end.
In my opinion the idea with the strength of the team related to the RTs it controls is a good point, as the game is somehow locked up when either aliens or marines get to a certain level. At that point it wont be a problem to recap a lost RT. But RTs are the most important Objects for both teams, but they are just responsible for cash and as there are two different resource systems it can't be balanced. So each RT should always be an important thing even in late games.
Look, Marines with everything upgraded, researched and enough cash can laugh about aliens killing one RT, as they will still win the game. The other way round.
The thing with marines need to pay to keep their structures working would cause a heavy imbalance. Marines cant afford to lose their tech as this would downgrade them to easy in contrast to the aliens.
I don't know what to change, I'm sorry for that, but I think its the key for interesting NS classic games.
One thing i really don't understand are electrified RTs. Electrifying costs 30res. This is equal to 2 OCs and 1 DC, so deadly enough for marines. With 30 res, marines could also build up a TF and two turrets, but this is useless, so in that case Electrifying makes sense. BUT an electrified RT fires till the RT is broken, not the armor itself. So its like a marine OC with extra health, when weldered it is repaired too. If marines break through the two OCs there is no more static offense and they can take down the RT. So in other words the electrified armor should be build by the marine players like other buildings AND the armor should be destroyable so that is no longer an offensive RT maybe display a second health circle for the armor.
This comes along with the RT problem i mentioned above as a skilled marine team can't be beaten, but a skilled alien team can be.
Oh and it would be nice to hear some feedback from the defs, they are the only people who it is up to change something. I would like to hear their oppinions as for some topics it would be useless to discuss about if they have chosen to keep as is.
What if IP's required 1 or even 2 res (random figure) to spawn in a marine?
Yes, negative income would be possible if this was applied to the current game model, but only if you entire team died at once. Incentive to use teamwork, if you ask me. Rambo's are suddenly not only giving the enemy team RFK, but taking res away from the marines!
This way, marines NEED to hold territory and cap rt's to support a steady flow of reinforcements, and if it gets down to a stalemate, 1 RT should <i>not</i> be able to support a constant flow of reinforcements, ending the game effectivley.
I realize that in the early game this could lead to easy alien rushes; ram the marines, cost them res. Maybe the res cost wouldn't come into play for the first 5 or 10 minutes?
Or what if the commander could toggle the respawn 'mode' of the IP's directly by clicking on them? You have to pay 1 res per respawn for an IP to work at the current 'normal' speed, perhaps even faster, but if you turn it to 'low,' marines spawn 2x or maybe even 3x slower, but for free.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Huge thread, good points. On this one, I made a suggestion similar to this, a long time ago. However requiring that many nodes is a tad harsh. For the most part, just requiring the Marines to hold a Max of 3 res nodes would serve this purpose. My previous proposal was this:
No res node requirement to set down and build buildings. However, For the Arms lab to provide its upgrades, Motion Tracking to be active, and an Advanced Armory to give out weapons, the Marines must hold two active res nodes. For a Proto Lab to be active and giving out Jetpacks/Heavy Armor, marines must hold three active res nodes.
This would help solve most base turtles. It might encourage more marine commanders to relocate to double node points, but the vast majority of double nodes on NS maps are horrible to defend, with multiple entrances and vents, so it would be a viable trade off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a nice compromise, not affecting the actual marine economy while still allowing a certain amount of territorial dependancy to help prevent excessive bunkering.
Also, I would like to vote vehemently against natural regeneration--not as a Marine player, but as an Alien player. Why? Because a damaged alien with regeneration CANNOT hide, unless he also has silence. Silence would suddenly become as mandatory as Regen is today, since hiding is vital for aliens.
An Alien with 3DC Regen can run away and wait for the healing to finish ticking and then come back, although it takes quite awhile, but in order for innate regen to be balanced it would have to be significantly slower--perhaps the rate of 1DC regen. That means an injured Alien would become a noisy beacon to the marines for a LONG time.
Comments
<b>Problem: F4 Bad Sportsmanship?</b>
<b>Possible Solution(s):</b>
- Give drama to retreating by use of F4 with appropriate text (ie. "TSA has retreated" or something similar) and appropriate end-game sounds (ie. "Emergency evacuation siren/alerts"). Basically make winning by F4 more rewarding. It is a defeat by demoralization, afterall.
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I love this idea! So much more rewarding than simply appearing in the readyroom and wondering what happened.
Regards,
Rennex<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
;_;
And, um, if people actually need to say that acid rocket is messed up: acid rocket is messed up.
<b>Problem: F4 Bad Sportsmanship?</b>
<b>Possible Solution(s):</b>
- Give drama to retreating by use of F4 with appropriate text (ie. "TSA has retreated" or something similar) and appropriate end-game sounds (ie. "Emergency evacuation siren/alerts"). Basically make winning by F4 more rewarding. It is a defeat by demoralization, afterall.
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I love this idea! So much more rewarding than simply appearing in the readyroom and wondering what happened. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya, it's a legitimate defeat. Why have it so anti-climatic? It needs some win feedback!
I just wanted to remind people that I posted POTENTIAL in front of my solutions since they were just what came to me off the top of my head and were intended to foster discussion. (so don't flip out over any of them)
On the issue of resources, the idea of an 'upkeep' cost for the res system is ineresting. Perhaps not as a solution to the problem I described, but interesting on its own merits. The only problem I see with it is that it makes commanding that much more complex, and commanding is hard enough already.
One of my other thoughts to the sensory issue is improve focus. Right now it is only a one bite kill until marines get armor 2. At that point they need two bites which may as well be 20 bites. That's why you rarely see peole bother with it outside of combat.
If shotties can one shot kill ANY low-level alien (skulk/lerk/gorge) then I don't see why a focus skulk/lerk/fade/onos shouldn't be able to one bite kill ANY light marine regardless of their armor level. The counter for this would be heavy armor.
This would not be unbalanced since skulks can one bite kill marines in the early game as it is now, and that hasn't become an issue.
On the topic of F4, while the ideas are interesting, I would tend to rather avoid the situation that causes F4 instead of making F4 more palatable. Flayra has said he didn't want to put a 'resign' option into the game, so I don't htink he will want to go down this road...
Regards,
Savant
Excellent analogy, (i believe that is the correct term) and a great idea. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
however, you must remember that aliens != marines. the marines have to pay 10 res each time + armory cost to allow marines to use shotguns, aliens simply need to plop down 3 SC and spend 2 res each life. I would like to see the onos gore power increased so that is true for sure though.
Bw, a skulk will only kill lvl 0 armored marines with one bite. As soon as the marines gets lvl 1 armor, a focus skulk need 2 bites to kill him.
Increased ROF, increased adrenaline costs. Since it has nothing to do with damage, it can apply to all abilities. No 1-hit-kill messiness. It makes sense as a sensory upgrade in that frenzied aliens are basically on crack <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, bulk up the gorge a tiny bit - not so that he's a mini-onos, but so that putting up an RT isn't quite so risky. As it is, gorges can't afford to come near any "hot" zones as they die quite quickly to just one marine. Against two marines the gorge should be toast, but just one, he should be able to hold his own until backup arrives.
These two changes wouldn't sort everything out, but it might give aliens a slight boost when they're not doing so well.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>*Where t = number of RTs and n = number of players. </span>
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That's just silly, though. Building multiple upgrade chambers should always be good. All three should in all ways be better than two or one. And only building a few would hurt those that actually want to use cloaking or SoF. It seems the way to make focus useful would be to increase damage and decrease rate of fire at the same percentages, so that you will over time deal equal damage to anything you attack.
Actually, taking that a step further, I've always thought it was rather silly to call focus an upgrade when it really just compresses two bites (a little less than two, but for the sake of argument) into one bite, and then slow down to compensate. Effectively, it counters itself. It's not an upgrade, as that would actually improve your attack. It's just a sort of redistribution of existing damage dealing ability. An upgrade would actually... well, UPGRADE something. None of the other upgrades slow you down, or do damage to you, or in any way adversely effect you. Why should this one?
Killing a skulk in one shot is difficult
Killing a lerk in one shot (without upgrades) is very difficult
Killing a gorge in one shot is impossible, gorges have too much health
Also, some numbers for you Savant:
- All a marine needs is lv. 1 armor to prevent being one hit killed
- 2 Bites is nothing close to 20 bites, following up on the second bite isn't that difficult, just stay focused on the marine and you can kill him
- Heavy armor is extreame late game for the marines, and is comparable to the onos, focus comes into the game as fast as the aliens want it.
- Focus also shaves off all of the armor of a marine, meaning he will die very easily. If you do not know the effects of having armor vs. not having armor, I suggest you do some research, the difference is AMAZING on how much armor will save your butt.
<a href='http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>Damage Simulator for more numbers</a>
So really, having focus killing in one hit all the time makes no sense, getting armor upgrades takes time and money, you make it sound like it's free. Also, by going with armor you forgo weaponry. And don't say getting two arms labs will allow you to get both at the same time, it's way too expensive to even consider that in most situations.
It may be annoying that the higher levels of Focus are not necessarily better than lower levels, but then again you've all noticed already the highest level isnt necessarily better than no focus at all, so it shouldnt be that much of a surprise. So go forth and get level 1 Focus! I command thee!
Nice coverage of a complex topic.
I think the problem of large games could be mitigated, at least, by two changes:
1. The alien starting hive functions as 2 IPs (Firewater's idea; I'm just repeating it).
2. Alien upgrade chambers (DC/MC/SC) cost 15 res. Alien upgrades (focus, regen, etc) cost 0 res, but still require evolve time.
I'm not clear on how to fix small games. Maybe by decreasing the research cost for key marine upgrades (HA/HMG), but increasing the per-unit buy costs.
Res usually flows pretty easily even for marines in these tiny games, so reducing Armory upgrade time without touching the costs would grant more flexibility to the marine early game while making it easier to reach that tech threshold for defending from the inevitable Onos.
As it is now marines follow the same build order every game. There is no reason for them to deviate fromt this beaten road. If focus is a one hit kill all the time then a good commander would know not to get armor upgrades first, but to get weapon upgrades so that the marines can kill the un-carapaced skulk before they get to them.
Thers not enough counters in this game that are seriously hardcore. Dont sit there and tell me that jet packs > onos because they have to land every 2 seconds = dead jp.
There are absolutly NO hard counters that FORCE the other team to go out of their way to compensate.
in warcraft 3 if your enemy goes mass gyrocopters agiasnt your mass chims they lose, but in ns you could have an entire team of fades and 2-3 shotguns will own them all.
I WAS going to write out detailed hard counters but flays gonna do what ever he wants to anyway. This is the reason the S&I forum is pointless.
As it is now marines follow the same build order every game. There is no reason for them to deviate fromt this beaten road. If focus is a one hit kill all the time then a good commander would know not to get armor upgrades first, but to get weapon upgrades so that the marines can kill the un-carapaced skulk before they get to them.
Thers not enough counters in this game that are seriously hardcore. Dont sit there and tell me that jet packs > onos because they have to land every 2 seconds = dead jp.
There are absolutly NO hard counters that FORCE the other team to go out of their way to compensate.
in warcraft 3 if your enemy goes mass gyrocopters agiasnt your mass chims they lose, but in ns you could have an entire team of fades and 2-3 shotguns will own them all.
I WAS going to write out detailed hard counters but flays gonna do what ever he wants to anyway. This is the reason the S&I forum is pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Some of the counters are either too hard (e.g. JP vs. OCs) or too soft (e.g. JP vs. onos). Marine weaponry isn't diverse enough, which makes marines too versatile.
I don't think you have much right to talk about counters and balances. Gyrocopters are generally considered to be weak overall, but Chims are flat out incapable of fighting back against them, and the Gyros will rip them to shreds faster than you can blink, and then proceed to bomb your base.
If your entire team goes fade and they have 2-3 shotguns, you have a serious upper hand, but because this is an FPS as well as an RTS, there is always a possibility they could win just through sheer FPS skill. For example, I just sent out a crew of Shotgun/HMG/HMG/GL who, despite medspam, all got torn to pieces inside of 10 seconds by a single Fade without getting any kills along the way.
Killing a lerk in one shot (without upgrades) is very difficult<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've GOT to be kidding right? Killing a skulk with a shotgun is difficult? LOL, gimme a break. ...and this coming from a VET? How embarassing for you. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I consider myself an above average player. Not as skilled as some of the super talented players, but I do fairly well. Killing a skulk with one shot using a shottie is one of the easiest things to do in this game. I have NO PROBLEM one-shot killing skulks with a shotgun, and only 1 in 10 attacks on me when I have a shotgun (in classic) ever result in my death - usually because I was careless. Often I can cap skulks from across the room with a shottie since even with the spray you don't need to connect with that many pellets. The shottie usually pays for itself with kills.
A LVL 0 shotgun only needs to conect with 6/10 pellets, and an upgraded shottie of any LVL only needs to connect with 4/10 pellets for a one shot kill. That's a less than 50% accuracy ratio and you are telling me that it is DIFFICULT? Com'on, how about some intellectual honesty here for a change.
Focus kill would give aliens a definate choice for sensory, and marines would have to counter it with ammo upgrades to take advantage of the skulk's crappy armor rating. It makes perfect sense to balance one against the other.
Marines will adapt to the change alike anythintg else. Far too many marines rush off ramboing the map and get away with it when Flayra himself has said he feels that marines should HAVE to use teamwork. Seems to me that this would fit his design quite well. A group of marines would make quick work of any skulk (focus or not) before they could get close.
Taking focus early would also cause aliens to make a VERY difficult choice for second chamber. Do they get defense and lose out on using MCs to travel between hives and for adren fades/lerks, or do they get MC and lose out on the benefits of redempt and regen instead?
One bite kills for all levels of focus (for light marines) would make this game a HECK of a lot more interesting than the same old DMS that we see every round.
Regards,
Savant
<span style='color:red'>1) </span>you need DC to win. I have <i>very </i>rarely seen an alien win that has not involved the use of DC (i.e. a win with 2 hives with SC/MC), and hearing of one is even rarer. Why is this?
<span style='color:green'>a) </span>DCs are essential to higher lifeforms. Given the one-shot nature of the evolutions (expensive, no refunds, and no guarentee that you'll rake in enough via RfK), you need the DC abilities to give yourself staying power. An onos without regeneration or carapace is taken out of the field alarmingly quickly.
<span style='color:green'>b) </span>They are useful throughout the course of the game, and enhance those skulks who like to rush on in <i>and </i>those who like to ambush. The nature of alien tech means there's no sure fire chance that you'll be able to secure other hives without a tough fight. As such, it's best to get them first just in case you need to get a couple of fades to take the fight to the 'rines.
<span style='color:green'>c) </span>It's a lot harder to defend your territory when you have to keep running back to the gorge/hive for healing. This means that the marines can slowly encroach and whittle you down.
<span style='color:red'>2)</span> MC is best for second hive. Although it's still good as first hive due to its rather excellent upgrades, its chamber power* doesn't make much difference at first hive. And although its upgrades are very useful, they're not <i>quite </i>as quite on their own for higher lifeforms - a celerity onos/fade is riskier than a regen/carapace onos/fade, no?
My suggestions would be:
1)
a) give all aliens natural regeneration (just not as effective as the DC version). When they're out of combat and not moving, the rate could improve, so that it's good for hit and run, but it's not ideal in a combat situation.
b) & c) make it so that RTs or all of the upgrade chambers heal (as the DC currently does). DCs reduce damage by a certain amount in their radius instead. (SCs, MCs, and SCs would heal at half the current DCs rate in the latter suggestion).
2) Have it so that MCs act like PGs do. This way, it would be useful at first hive, too; you could quickly retreat back to the hive for healing.
<i><span style='font-family:Times'><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>*Yeah, I'm aware it gives energy, too, but that's not useful in most cases.</span></span></i>
Intimidate:
lvl 1: 10% that an attack will stun for .7 seconds
lvl 2: 20% that an attack will stun for .7 seconds
lvl 3: 30% that an attack will stun for .7 seconds
-OR-
Disarm:
lvl 1: 10% chance to make a marine drop his current weapon
lvl 2: 15% chance to make a marine drop his current weapon
lvl 3: 20% chance to make a marine drop his current weapon
-OR-
Fear:
lvl 1 : 25% chance that your primary attack will cause a conc gren like effect
lvl 2 : 50%
lvl 3 : 100%
lasts 1 second at all levels.
Lets see those crack bunnies jump around and shoot now.
-I'd like to see certain upgrades tied into territorial control. For example, armour and ammo upgrades could be tied to the number of nodes held. So to get armour/ammo 1 the marines would need to have possession of TWO res nodes. For armour/ammo 2 they would need FOUR res nodes, and for armour/ammo 3 they would need to control SIX res nodes. Additionally we could put in that marines need to have control of a hive in order to build a proto lab or advanced armoury. If they don't control a hive they would not be able to use the proto lab or hand out heavy weapons from the armoury. In this way marines would be rewarded for controlling territory. Aliens on the other hand would be able to weaken marines by taking out res nodes. Right now there is a minor incentive to take out marine res nodes, but if the marines strength was tied to the number they held, you would see more battles over res nodes. Same for hives. If the marines could be weakened by aliens taking territory from them, you would see fewer stalemates, not to mention better gameplay.
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huge thread, good points. On this one, I made a suggestion similar to this, a long time ago. However requiring that many nodes is a tad harsh. For the most part, just requiring the Marines to hold a Max of 3 res nodes would serve this purpose. My previous proposal was this:
No res node requirement to set down and build buildings. However, For the Arms lab to provide its upgrades, Motion Tracking to be active, and an Advanced Armory to give out weapons, the Marines must hold two active res nodes. For a Proto Lab to be active and giving out Jetpacks/Heavy Armor, marines must hold three active res nodes.
This would help solve most base turtles. It might encourage more marine commanders to relocate to double node points, but the vast majority of double nodes on NS maps are horrible to defend, with multiple entrances and vents, so it would be a viable trade off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a) give all aliens natural regeneration (just not as effective as the DC version). When they're out of combat and not moving, the rate could improve, so that it's good for hit and run, but it's not ideal in a combat situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think an innate regeneration for aliens would do wonders to eliminate DMS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->b) & c) make it so that RTs or all of the upgrade chambers heal (as the DC currently does). DCs reduce damage by a certain amount in their radius instead. (SCs, MCs, and SCs would heal at half the current DCs rate in the latter suggestion).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's overreacting. Don't overnerf defense chambers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Have it so that MCs act like PGs do. This way, it would be useful at first hive, too; you could quickly retreat back to the hive for healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't like this idea. It eliminates one unique aspect of aliens (and of marines). Alternative: give the +use teleport ability to the hive. Movements will still have the ability, but they won't be as necessary as before at 2nd hive.
Nightcrawler, do you realize you'd be making defense even more powerful with those abilities? Regeneration is a defense ability. So if it's replaced, it must be replaced with a defense ability.
I do like the idea of a relatively weak innate kharaa regeneration, particularly one that kicks in only when immobile (as to keep the actual Regeneration ability more useful). Always did seem a little strange to me that the chamber which provides healing is the same one which provides Regeneration.
What really needs to be done before anything extreme is changed is that three-hive abilities need to not suck. That means blast damage back on xenocide, less "fun" AR, more and/or longer-lasting webs, perhaps a longer primal scream, and an insanely better charge. Maybe then things would begin to fix themselves.
In my opinion the idea with the strength of the team related to the RTs it controls is a good point, as the game is somehow locked up
when either aliens or marines get to a certain level. At that point it wont be a problem to recap a lost RT.
But RTs are the most important Objects for both teams, but they are just responsible for cash and as there are two different resource systems it can't be balanced. So each RT should always be an important thing even in late games.
Look, Marines with everything upgraded, researched and enough cash can laugh about aliens killing one RT, as they will still win the game. The other way round.
The thing with marines need to pay to keep their structures working would cause a heavy imbalance. Marines cant afford to lose their tech as this would downgrade them to easy in contrast to the aliens.
I don't know what to change, I'm sorry for that, but I think its the key for interesting NS classic games.
One thing i really don't understand are electrified RTs.
Electrifying costs 30res. This is equal to 2 OCs and 1 DC, so deadly enough for marines. With 30 res, marines could also build up a TF and two turrets, but this is useless, so in that case Electrifying makes sense. BUT an electrified RT fires till the RT is broken, not the armor itself. So its like a marine OC with extra health, when weldered it is repaired too. If marines break through the two OCs there is no more static offense and they can take down the RT. So in other words the electrified armor should be build by the marine players like other buildings AND the armor should be destroyable so that is no longer an offensive RT maybe display a second health circle for the armor.
This comes along with the RT problem i mentioned above as a skilled marine team can't be beaten, but a skilled alien team can be.
Oh and it would be nice to hear some feedback from the defs, they are the only people who it is up to change something. I would like to hear their oppinions as for some topics it would be useless to discuss about if they have chosen to keep as is.
Yes, negative income would be possible if this was applied to the current game model, but only if you entire team died at once. Incentive to use teamwork, if you ask me. Rambo's are suddenly not only giving the enemy team RFK, but taking res away from the marines!
This way, marines NEED to hold territory and cap rt's to support a steady flow of reinforcements, and if it gets down to a stalemate, 1 RT should <i>not</i> be able to support a constant flow of reinforcements, ending the game effectivley.
I realize that in the early game this could lead to easy alien rushes; ram the marines, cost them res. Maybe the res cost wouldn't come into play for the first 5 or 10 minutes?
Or what if the commander could toggle the respawn 'mode' of the IP's directly by clicking on them? You have to pay 1 res per respawn for an IP to work at the current 'normal' speed, perhaps even faster, but if you turn it to 'low,' marines spawn 2x or maybe even 3x slower, but for free.
I'd like feedback on these ideas please ^__^
No res node requirement to set down and build buildings. However, For the Arms lab to provide its upgrades, Motion Tracking to be active, and an Advanced Armory to give out weapons, the Marines must hold two active res nodes. For a Proto Lab to be active and giving out Jetpacks/Heavy Armor, marines must hold three active res nodes.
This would help solve most base turtles. It might encourage more marine commanders to relocate to double node points, but the vast majority of double nodes on NS maps are horrible to defend, with multiple entrances and vents, so it would be a viable trade off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a nice compromise, not affecting the actual marine economy while still allowing a certain amount of territorial dependancy to help prevent excessive bunkering.
Also, I would like to vote vehemently against natural regeneration--not as a Marine player, but as an Alien player. Why? Because a damaged alien with regeneration CANNOT hide, unless he also has silence. Silence would suddenly become as mandatory as Regen is today, since hiding is vital for aliens.
An Alien with 3DC Regen can run away and wait for the healing to finish ticking and then come back, although it takes quite awhile, but in order for innate regen to be balanced it would have to be significantly slower--perhaps the rate of 1DC regen. That means an injured Alien would become a noisy beacon to the marines for a LONG time.