<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Using them as light overlays looks no different than just darkening the border of the texture around the regular light texture, which any user can see. There's really no reason to bother with doing it that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yes, there is ... 1st I don't have to alter all the light-textures from the official wads, 2nd I can use one detailtexture for all lights from one set (for example the light_panel* series) and ... if I wanted to ... I could do a higher res detailtexture (256x256 for a 64x64 spotlight for example) and add some detail like grates, and create a smoother outline ... but yes, in the end it is no different to darkening the textures edges <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(As this is exactly the way detailtextures work ... lighten or darken the texture they're applied to)
Well, last point: Detailtextures use 24 bit, colored, and can therefore add smother shade to the outline, but I doubt if this will be noticeable ingame <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As enough people out there already have a detailtexture-capable graphicscard (and many will get one in the next months) I will use the detailtexture-method for my map <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
yeah, but thats only beacause the origional texture has almost no detail at all... Btw its also posted on the previous page and some pages before that even <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually kouji, hostile intent's implementation of detail textures have been superior to the ones i have seen on this forum thread almost without exception. This is mainly because their implementation adds highlights and detail that you would expect to see if you looked more closely. What i've seen mostly on here (and in soylent green's detail tex's) is detail textures that just add noise, and actually detract from the style of the textures. Ie the wall lab det tex's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually kouji, hostile intent's implementation of detail textures have been superior to the ones i have seen on this forum thread almost without exception.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's absolutely not an apples to apples comparison though.
Textures in NS don't tile within themselves such as those in hostile intent and the same method of constructing detail textures is not applicable unless you dare try using > 1024x1024x24-bit textures(3 MB textures!, that might even crash HL).
Nor are most textures in NS supposed to look flat.
What can you do in NS with detail textures then? You can break up the bilinear and fuzziness and try to add a little extra detail.
I agree with that, but i've found that the textures' appearances have been misinterpreted and that their detail textures don't look right as a result. For example, most people would probably see the wall lab textures as being a smooth compact material (thats the way i see it anyway). The detail textures in your pack make those textures look like coarse stone which i don't think was their intended syle. just my opinion though
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->detail textures in your pack make those textures look like coarse stone which i don't think was their intended syle<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about the stucco look on the wall lab? There's another version of the files in the zipfile to use a different texture because I kept bugging him about that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually kouji, hostile intent's implementation of detail textures have been superior to the ones i have seen on this forum thread almost without exception<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks. That makes me feel really good about the 2 or 3 textures I made.
Seriously though, I'll repeat that Hostile Intent's detail textures work well for two reasons: (1) the person who made the textures is very talented and probably made the original textures as well as the detail textures (2) the original textures have almost no detail at all.
LePrau pointed this out on Page 17. It's the last post.
Here's the thing though, can you honestly say that, even though our use of detail textures is "not as good" as Hostile Intents, that it doesn't help at all?
I mean, this is the scratched texture I made applied to a standard wall.
And i really like to show this pic: <img src='http://leprau.dyndns.org/detailtexture.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
You can see the difference, and <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can't tell me that it looks better without it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again, If you are using Detailtextures for the Walls, for Floors etc, why not use them as fake-overlays? Instead of manipulating original textures.
I am going to _love_ detailtextures. There are some bad examples, some of the detailtextures soylent added are extremely bumpy and make NS look more like Q3 ... but that only depends on the detailtextures itself, not on the fact that detailtextures are used <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And please, noone starts saying "but you need a high-end graphics card for these" ... you really don't. Ge3ti is enough. If you are playing NS with an older graphicscard, then you surely would appretiate, that you can turn off detailtextures with loss of some visual enhancement for better performance. But you cannot turn off overlays ... as they are part of the map itself, and will always be rendered.
To those who have a Ge4mx: I feel really sorry for you guys, but ... if you have had yourself better informed, you would have known that these cards are similar to ge2ti, according to their capabilities. IMO they should not have a "4" in their name ... as they are not from the same family as Geforce4 cards ...
If you check the steam survey, except for those poor guys owning a DX7 Graphicscard called "Geforce 4 MX" the majority has detailtexture-capable cards. (Ati Radeon 8500+ works fine with detailtextures)
And detailtextures don't have a measurable impact on performance for most users.
Look at how ns_desolate did their detail textures. A brushed/scratched effect for the walls, a chrome/stained effect for the grated floor, higher contrast detail on the concrete flooring, and the door might have some dirty/scratched metal texture on it too. IMO it looks very good.
You mean the diamond on the screen above the desolate shot? I don't really like it either. Blue? Meh. The hive area looks like someone peed on the floor, and the problem with it is because it's green is you'll have a higher contrast between non-infested areas and infested-areas.
The diamond pattern also looks embossed... instead of diamonds poking up, it looks like they're poking DOWN.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look at how ns_desolate did their detail textures. A brushed/scratched effect for the walls, a chrome/stained effect for the grated floor, higher contrast detail on the concrete flooring, and the door might have some dirty/scratched metal texture on it too. IMO it looks very good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to point out that the wall is "TexturedMetal" and the floor is "scratched1". I made *both*. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> What it does show is that certain uses of a texture are better than others. After making texturedMetal for the diamond floor, soylent used it for the vents in tanith and it works very well.
Your diamond floor is pretty cool, although i think it makes it look like the pieces are sunk into the floor when you look down at it. Still, good work. I keep saying to people, release it for everyone. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I already have released it, indirectly, if anyone already has downloaded the current build 33 of my map ns_marcopolo (just reached second hive, which looks uuuugly at the moment).
Evereyone may use these detailtextures (most of them are done by me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->) for their projects. A small entry in the credits for releases would be nice, though.
Thread with dl-link is here: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65125' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=65125</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Cutedge+Mar 18 2004, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cutedge @ Mar 18 2004, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look at how ns_desolate did their detail textures. A brushed/scratched effect for the walls, a chrome/stained effect for the grated floor, higher contrast detail on the concrete flooring, and the door might have some dirty/scratched metal texture on it too. IMO it looks very good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to point out that the wall is "TexturedMetal" and the floor is "scratched1". I made *both*. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> What it does show is that certain uses of a texture are better than others. After making texturedMetal for the diamond floor, soylent used it for the vents in tanith and it works very well.
Your diamond floor is pretty cool, although i think it makes it look like the pieces are sunk into the floor when you look down at it. Still, good work. I keep saying to people, release it for everyone. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a brushed metal 'texture' you can find on google image search that looks 100% identical to the ones in soylent green's pack, and 100% like the ones on that wall.
<!--QuoteBegin-LePrau+Mar 18 2004, 02:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LePrau @ Mar 18 2004, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And i really like to show this pic: <img src='http://leprau.dyndns.org/detailtexture.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good work so far, LePrau, but there are two problems with this pic.
1) I know from seeing it that the effect of detail textures on infected/hive areas is much more impressive than that. This isn't a problem with your texture work, but rather with choice of screenshot. If you got a good look at a wall, and took a side-by-side with one of those really grossly infected lumpish areas, you could really show how these things shine.
2) The diamond floor still needs work. You've brought the contrast around the edges up too much, and now it looks more like there are little misshapen donuts in the floor, rather than raised, elliptical bumps. You should concentrate on making it look more like what it's supposed to look like, not making it look more like what it <i>does</i> look like.
PS: I also think you added a bit too much noise to the diamond floor, and the color change makes the contrast problems worse.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's a brushed metal 'texture' you can find on google image search that looks 100% identical to the ones in soylent green's pack, and 100% like the ones on that wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The brushed metal texture I made >is< the one in Soylent Green's pack. Yes, I got it from another larger picture and tesselated it, did some modifying so it would work correctly as a detail texture. You can find a million versions of the identical texture, although I will say that it's not from a google image search. This conversation is pointless though. I released the textures i've made for people to use. I think that's the best way to have the community work for this feature.
What I was trying to point out is that people are saying "look, this guy knows what textures to use. why aren't *you* using these?" and WE ARE using the same detail textures. Other than the wall_lab bumpy texture that people keep bitching about and the diamond floors i was working on (unsuccessfully), the detail textures that you can get in soylent's pack work pretty well.
Also, to your comment about the detail textures for the infestation, I happen to like the one Soylent is using in the pack, which does not add an additional color.
The interesting thing about all these posts (and I read 90% of the 20 pages worth) is that no-one here seems to have mentioned the effects of detail textures and anistrophic filtering. I personally run AF at 8x which makes NS so sharp that it seems a lot more detailed than it really is because of the way the drivers force the mipmaps to be sharpened whilst rendering. Granted I have a 9800xt which means I don't get the performance hit. But my basic point would be that creating higher contrast textures is fairly useless because most vid cards these days make things look pretty on their own.
This whole debate/conversation reminds me of when I first saw the graphics in Serious Sam. One of the cool, and unnoticed, features of Serious Sam was the detail textures. The thing that made Serious Sams detail textures go unnoticed was that you really had to look for the detail. It wasn't that it was low detail it was that it was so subtle that it just made your mind assume that it was just all high quality textures.
That's the balance that we have to achieve, as mappers, if we are going to use this feature. If people are drawn to the detail textures then you're being to obvious with them.
The distinction between when a texture has a detail texture showing and the transition (to not having one) should be so subtle that people don't complain about how blurry things are in the background.
You are dancing in a dangerous playground here because you wont be able to detail everything and that means that some parts of your map wont look as good and if you can't convincingly have the two types working together it will just make the whole experience flawed.
As NS mappers, we have a tough enough time making a map work, is this something that we really want to focus on before we even hear from Captain Flayra and his little Flayrites?
I think Detail Textures have promise (how much it will effect those that are forcing anistrophic filtering in games is yet to be seen - as I haven't downloaded the Detail Texture Pack that someone has been pimping here).. but unless they are done right you are just going to be implementing it for the sake of it - and from memory, NS has been great all this time because everything (including graphics) has been well thought out..
I'd try putting on AF to see what it does to the detail textures, but my Radeon 9600xt unexpectedly died last thursday. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't think it'll screw up the AF that much. I'd imagine that it would just process the detail textures seperately and then apply them.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2004
hehe cmon <b>Hanz</b> you can run higher then 8x AF <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
9800XT 256mb 16x AF 90-100fps most of the time 70-80fps in turret spam farms/mainbase 60fps if an insane amount of things are happening all at once (usually the end of the marine base and the TSA force <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin-Cutedge+Mar 22 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cutedge @ Mar 22 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think it'll screw up the AF that much. I'd imagine that it would just process the detail textures seperately and then apply them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> AF at lower rates (4x or 2x) compared with higher rates (8x or 16x) will make the detail(textures) fade to invisible much closer to the player, sometimes even resulting in a weird render line which constantly keeps the same distance from the player when moving forward/backwards. It's espacially noticeable on older cards
<b>Kouji</b> : I run at 1024x768, 24bit colour, 2x AA and 8x AF.. poor little half-life is a framerate hog.. Same settings in Battlefield and I've got no troubles..silly half-life and its' quake 1 engine.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> ..still looks perty tho...
Haven't been able to test out these detail maps that people have been posting cause I'm downloading a huge file and NS crashes sometimes (I think cause of PowerStrip) and I don't want to risk file corruption <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-HanzGrub3r+Mar 23 2004, 12:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HanzGrub3r @ Mar 23 2004, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Kouji</b> : I run at 1024x768, 24bit colour, 2x AA and 8x AF.. poor little half-life is a framerate hog.. Same settings in Battlefield and I've got no troubles..silly half-life and its' quake 1 engine.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> ..still looks perty tho...
Haven't been able to test out these detail maps that people have been posting cause I'm downloading a huge file and NS crashes sometimes (I think cause of PowerStrip) and I don't want to risk file corruption <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it runs slowly because it's directx6
there's no T&L, so it doesn't take advantage of the video card. it's CPU dependant more then anything
Well, to thank valve for implementing something but not helping the community with it - I am going to reward them by buying CS:CZ...just kidding...wait a second..that was almost sarcastic flame like...dammit... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> ...And I've been doing so well at my FA meetings
there's no T&L, so it doesn't take advantage of the video card. it's CPU dependant more then anything <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to nit pick but it's a pet peeve of mine when people call openGL direct X just for the sake of pinning down the time at which an application was made. They could implement all sorts of cool pixel shader effects in openGL in HL1 if they wished. DX is much more standardized.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I personally run AF at 8x which makes NS so sharp that it seems a lot more detailed than it really is because of the way the drivers force the mipmaps to be sharpened whilst rendering.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AF isn't texture sharpening. Anisotropic filtering means ~ angle dependent filtering. The problem is that textures on polygons with their normal allmost perpendicular to the screen need more filtering in the depth direction from the player to remain sharp. This is all that AF does, it does NOT sharpen textures in the contrast sense.
Anisotropic filtering isn't even applied to polygons that are facing straight at the player because it wouldn't make any difference at all.
I suspect that detail textures are implemented with a simple pixelshader(because exactly pixel shader capable cards seem able to render them, this might mean that they use shaders. It is also quite easy to do this effect with a shader), if so anisotropic filtering should have NO effect on the detail textures themselves without special treatment to allow for it by VALVe, the shaders themselves would only do the trilinear filtering they are right now.
I'm against the idea of using detail textures to increase the contrast because if you wanted a higher contrast you could have done so from the beginning with the actual textures. I think detail textures should be used to add small detail so that surfaces don't ever look blurry at any distance as well as break up the bilinear filter at close range(which can be done with simple noise if it suits the texture) and to fake a higher resolution on the textures then you have.
It appears that there is no artificial limit on how many textures may be detail textured. It should not be difficult to use detail textures on all textures if you find ones that suit the textures.
Just a thought.... For textures with "randomness" in them, wouldnt' it make more sense to scale the detail texture NOT at multiple/quotient of the regular textures size? Perhaps ALL "dirt" detail textures should be scaled a "wierd fraction" of the base texture. That way, the two textuers tile at different "rates" and that way any regularity in either texture can be masked. You get what I mean? (especially Soylent <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
the way the scaling works is that it repeats x time for each 1 time the texture is used. So, you can't get it to not have a seam in the detail texture where the texture has a seam. It will always line up right there. It's just the way the detail textures are.
If you *could* get it to not line up, yeah, you're right. That would work really well for hiding where the texture is repeating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just a thought.... For textures with "randomness" in them, wouldnt' it make more sense to scale the detail texture NOT at multiple/quotient of the regular textures size? Perhaps ALL "dirt" detail textures should be scaled a "wierd fraction" of the base texture. That way, the two textuers tile at different "rates" and that way any regularity in either texture can be masked. You get what I mean? (especially Soylent ) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the way the scaling works is that it repeats x time for each 1 time the texture is used. So, you can't get it to not have a seam in the detail texture where the texture has a seam. It will always line up right there. It's just the way the detail textures are.
If you *could* get it to not line up, yeah, you're right. That would work really well for hiding where the texture is repeating. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has neither complained or done something unexpected when I entered decimal numbers but it might round them, I haven't checked.
It does make sense to use weird numbers but I think the benefits are small.
A problem is that mip-maping "hides" detail textures at all but short distances(too small/faint details in the detail textures get smeared out and not visible in smaller mipmaps. The alternative is that you get weird pixel-poping and aliasing like you get on models in HL(mipmaps are not used on models in HL <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->) so it must be done.), if this is the case you won't see detail textures on more than part of a texture at once anyway.
If the detail textures are too visible it is quite easy to spot the tiling of the detail texture itself which is a bigger problem and not helped by this.
about the only place where I can see it would be very usefull is when you have a large and easily visible detail texture on large flat surfaces(e.g. terrain).
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin-Soylent green+Mar 26 2004, 10:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Mar 26 2004, 10:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A problem is that mip-maping "hides" detail textures at all but short distances(too small/faint details in the detail textures get smeared out and not visible in smaller mipmaps. The alternative is that you get weird pixel-poping and aliasing like you get on models in HL(mipmaps are not used on models in HL <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->) so it must be done.), if this is the case you won't see detail textures on more than part of a texture at once anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not a problem, that's a benefit, and the best way that detail textures work. If you -can- see the detail textures from far away, you're going to see the blatant tiling. Even the oft-praised HI shots show this. Detail textures only should be notably visible at close range, as that's when they make the most benefit and are the most needed.
Comments
Oh yes, there is ... 1st I don't have to alter all the light-textures from the official wads, 2nd I can use one detailtexture for all lights from one set (for example the light_panel* series) and ... if I wanted to ... I could do a higher res detailtexture (256x256 for a 64x64 spotlight for example) and add some detail like grates, and create a smoother outline ... but yes, in the end it is no different to darkening the textures edges <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(As this is exactly the way detailtextures work ... lighten or darken the texture they're applied to)
Well, last point: Detailtextures use 24 bit, colored, and can therefore add smother shade to the outline, but I doubt if this will be noticeable ingame <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As enough people out there already have a detailtexture-capable graphicscard (and many will get one in the next months) I will use the detailtexture-method for my map <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Took this from another mod doing detailed textures. Much bigger difference there than in the pictures above.
Btw its also posted on the previous page and some pages before that even <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That's absolutely not an apples to apples comparison though.
Textures in NS don't tile within themselves such as those in hostile intent and the same method of constructing detail textures is not applicable unless you dare try using > 1024x1024x24-bit textures(3 MB textures!, that might even crash HL).
Nor are most textures in NS supposed to look flat.
What can you do in NS with detail textures then? You can break up the bilinear and fuzziness and try to add a little extra detail.
Are you talking about the stucco look on the wall lab? There's another version of the files in the zipfile to use a different texture because I kept bugging him about that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually kouji, hostile intent's implementation of detail textures have been superior to the ones i have seen on this forum thread almost without exception<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks. That makes me feel really good about the 2 or 3 textures I made.
Seriously though, I'll repeat that Hostile Intent's detail textures work well for two reasons:
(1) the person who made the textures is very talented and probably made the original textures as well as the detail textures
(2) the original textures have almost no detail at all.
LePrau pointed this out on Page 17. It's the last post.
Here's the thing though, can you honestly say that, even though our use of detail textures is "not as good" as Hostile Intents, that it doesn't help at all?
I mean, this is the scratched texture I made applied to a standard wall.
<img src='http://www.llamalicious.com/images/hera_detail3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
You can't tell me that it looks better without it.
In the end, I propose this. If you think you can do a better job, than go nuts.
<img src='http://leprau.dyndns.org/detailtexture.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
You can see the difference, and
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can't tell me that it looks better without it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again, If you are using Detailtextures for the Walls, for Floors etc, why not use them as fake-overlays? Instead of manipulating original textures.
I am going to _love_ detailtextures. There are some bad examples, some of the detailtextures soylent added are extremely bumpy and make NS look more like Q3 ... but that only depends on the detailtextures itself, not on the fact that detailtextures are used <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And please, noone starts saying "but you need a high-end graphics card for these" ... you really don't. Ge3ti is enough. If you are playing NS with an older graphicscard, then you surely would appretiate, that you can turn off detailtextures with loss of some visual enhancement for better performance. But you cannot turn off overlays ... as they are part of the map itself, and will always be rendered.
To those who have a Ge4mx: I feel really sorry for you guys, but ... if you have had yourself better informed, you would have known that these cards are similar to ge2ti, according to their capabilities. IMO they should not have a "4" in their name ... as they are not from the same family as Geforce4 cards ...
If you check the steam survey, except for those poor guys owning a DX7 Graphicscard called "Geforce 4 MX" the majority has detailtexture-capable cards. (Ati Radeon 8500+ works fine with detailtextures)
And detailtextures don't have a measurable impact on performance for most users.
Steam survey link: <a href='http://steampowered.com/status/survey.html' target='_blank'>http://steampowered.com/status/survey.html</a>
<img src='http://uranium235.thezazi.net/DetailVs.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
The diamond pattern also looks embossed... instead of diamonds poking up, it looks like they're poking DOWN.
I'd like to point out that the wall is "TexturedMetal" and the floor is "scratched1". I made *both*. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> What it does show is that certain uses of a texture are better than others. After making texturedMetal for the diamond floor, soylent used it for the vents in tanith and it works very well.
Your diamond floor is pretty cool, although i think it makes it look like the pieces are sunk into the floor when you look down at it. Still, good work. I keep saying to people, release it for everyone. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Evereyone may use these detailtextures (most of them are done by me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->) for their projects. A small entry in the credits for releases would be nice, though.
Thread with dl-link is here: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65125' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=65125</a>
I'd like to point out that the wall is "TexturedMetal" and the floor is "scratched1". I made *both*. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> What it does show is that certain uses of a texture are better than others. After making texturedMetal for the diamond floor, soylent used it for the vents in tanith and it works very well.
Your diamond floor is pretty cool, although i think it makes it look like the pieces are sunk into the floor when you look down at it. Still, good work. I keep saying to people, release it for everyone. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a brushed metal 'texture' you can find on google image search that looks 100% identical to the ones in soylent green's pack, and 100% like the ones on that wall.
<a href='http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=brushed+metal&sa=N&tab=wi' target='_blank'>http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&...tal&sa=N&tab=wi</a>
<img src='http://leprau.dyndns.org/detailtexture.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good work so far, LePrau, but there are two problems with this pic.
1) I know from seeing it that the effect of detail textures on infected/hive areas is much more impressive than that. This isn't a problem with your texture work, but rather with choice of screenshot. If you got a good look at a wall, and took a side-by-side with one of those really grossly infected lumpish areas, you could really show how these things shine.
2) The diamond floor still needs work. You've brought the contrast around the edges up too much, and now it looks more like there are little misshapen donuts in the floor, rather than raised, elliptical bumps. You should concentrate on making it look more like what it's supposed to look like, not making it look more like what it <i>does</i> look like.
PS: I also think you added a bit too much noise to the diamond floor, and the color change makes the contrast problems worse.
The brushed metal texture I made >is< the one in Soylent Green's pack. Yes, I got it from another larger picture and tesselated it, did some modifying so it would work correctly as a detail texture. You can find a million versions of the identical texture, although I will say that it's not from a google image search. This conversation is pointless though. I released the textures i've made for people to use. I think that's the best way to have the community work for this feature.
What I was trying to point out is that people are saying "look, this guy knows what textures to use. why aren't *you* using these?" and WE ARE using the same detail textures. Other than the wall_lab bumpy texture that people keep bitching about and the diamond floors i was working on (unsuccessfully), the detail textures that you can get in soylent's pack work pretty well.
Also, to your comment about the detail textures for the infestation, I happen to like the one Soylent is using in the pack, which does not add an additional color.
<img src='http://www.llamalicious.com/images/hera_detail2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Thought I would add my two cents.
The interesting thing about all these posts (and I read 90% of the 20 pages worth) is that no-one here seems to have mentioned the effects of detail textures and anistrophic filtering. I personally run AF at 8x which makes NS so sharp that it seems a lot more detailed than it really is because of the way the drivers force the mipmaps to be sharpened whilst rendering. Granted I have a 9800xt which means I don't get the performance hit. But my basic point would be that creating higher contrast textures is fairly useless because most vid cards these days make things look pretty on their own.
This whole debate/conversation reminds me of when I first saw the graphics in Serious Sam. One of the cool, and unnoticed, features of Serious Sam was the detail textures. The thing that made Serious Sams detail textures go unnoticed was that you really had to look for the detail. It wasn't that it was low detail it was that it was so subtle that it just made your mind assume that it was just all high quality textures.
That's the balance that we have to achieve, as mappers, if we are going to use this feature. If people are drawn to the detail textures then you're being to obvious with them.
The distinction between when a texture has a detail texture showing and the transition (to not having one) should be so subtle that people don't complain about how blurry things are in the background.
You are dancing in a dangerous playground here because you wont be able to detail everything and that means that some parts of your map wont look as good and if you can't convincingly have the two types working together it will just make the whole experience flawed.
As NS mappers, we have a tough enough time making a map work, is this something that we really want to focus on before we even hear from Captain Flayra and his little Flayrites?
I think Detail Textures have promise (how much it will effect those that are forcing anistrophic filtering in games is yet to be seen - as I haven't downloaded the Detail Texture Pack that someone has been pimping here).. but unless they are done right you are just going to be implementing it for the sake of it - and from memory, NS has been great all this time because everything (including graphics) has been well thought out..
I don't think it'll screw up the AF that much. I'd imagine that it would just process the detail textures seperately and then apply them.
9800XT 256mb 16x AF
90-100fps most of the time
70-80fps in turret spam farms/mainbase
60fps if an insane amount of things are happening all at once (usually the end of the marine base and the TSA force <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin-Cutedge+Mar 22 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cutedge @ Mar 22 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I don't think it'll screw up the AF that much. I'd imagine that it would just process the detail textures seperately and then apply them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AF at lower rates (4x or 2x) compared with higher rates (8x or 16x) will make the detail(textures) fade to invisible much closer to the player, sometimes even resulting in a weird render line which constantly keeps the same distance from the player when moving forward/backwards.
It's espacially noticeable on older cards
Haven't been able to test out these detail maps that people have been posting cause I'm downloading a huge file and NS crashes sometimes (I think cause of PowerStrip) and I don't want to risk file corruption <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Haven't been able to test out these detail maps that people have been posting cause I'm downloading a huge file and NS crashes sometimes (I think cause of PowerStrip) and I don't want to risk file corruption <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it runs slowly because it's directx6
there's no T&L, so it doesn't take advantage of the video card. it's CPU dependant more then anything
so stop crying <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
there's no T&L, so it doesn't take advantage of the video card. it's CPU dependant more then anything <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to nit pick but it's a pet peeve of mine when people call openGL direct X just for the sake of pinning down the time at which an application was made. They could implement all sorts of cool pixel shader effects in openGL in HL1 if they wished. DX is much more standardized.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I personally run AF at 8x which makes NS so sharp that it seems a lot more detailed than it really is because of the way the drivers force the mipmaps to be sharpened whilst rendering.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AF isn't texture sharpening. Anisotropic filtering means ~ angle dependent filtering. The problem is that textures on polygons with their normal allmost perpendicular to the screen need more filtering in the depth direction from the player to remain sharp. This is all that AF does, it does NOT sharpen textures in the contrast sense.
Anisotropic filtering isn't even applied to polygons that are facing straight at the player because it wouldn't make any difference at all.
I suspect that detail textures are implemented with a simple pixelshader(because exactly pixel shader capable cards seem able to render them, this might mean that they use shaders. It is also quite easy to do this effect with a shader), if so anisotropic filtering should have NO effect on the detail textures themselves without special treatment to allow for it by VALVe, the shaders themselves would only do the trilinear filtering they are right now.
I'm against the idea of using detail textures to increase the contrast because if you wanted a higher contrast you could have done so from the beginning with the actual textures. I think detail textures should be used to add small detail so that surfaces don't ever look blurry at any distance as well as break up the bilinear filter at close range(which can be done with simple noise if it suits the texture) and to fake a higher resolution on the textures then you have.
It appears that there is no artificial limit on how many textures may be detail textured. It should not be difficult to use detail textures on all textures if you find ones that suit the textures.
For textures with "randomness" in them, wouldnt' it make more sense to scale the detail texture NOT at multiple/quotient of the regular textures size? Perhaps ALL "dirt" detail textures should be scaled a "wierd fraction" of the base texture. That way, the two textuers tile at different "rates" and that way any regularity in either texture can be masked. You get what I mean? (especially Soylent <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
If you *could* get it to not line up, yeah, you're right. That would work really well for hiding where the texture is repeating.
For textures with "randomness" in them, wouldnt' it make more sense to scale the detail texture NOT at multiple/quotient of the regular textures size? Perhaps ALL "dirt" detail textures should be scaled a "wierd fraction" of the base texture. That way, the two textuers tile at different "rates" and that way any regularity in either texture can be masked. You get what I mean? (especially Soylent ) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the way the scaling works is that it repeats x time for each 1 time the texture is used. So, you can't get it to not have a seam in the detail texture where the texture has a seam. It will always line up right there. It's just the way the detail textures are.
If you *could* get it to not line up, yeah, you're right. That would work really well for hiding where the texture is repeating. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has neither complained or done something unexpected when I entered decimal numbers but it might round them, I haven't checked.
It does make sense to use weird numbers but I think the benefits are small.
A problem is that mip-maping "hides" detail textures at all but short distances(too small/faint details in the detail textures get smeared out and not visible in smaller mipmaps. The alternative is that you get weird pixel-poping and aliasing like you get on models in HL(mipmaps are not used on models in HL <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->) so it must be done.), if this is the case you won't see detail textures on more than part of a texture at once anyway.
If the detail textures are too visible it is quite easy to spot the tiling of the detail texture itself which is a bigger problem and not helped by this.
about the only place where I can see it would be very usefull is when you have a large and easily visible detail texture on large flat surfaces(e.g. terrain).
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a problem, that's a benefit, and the best way that detail textures work. If you -can- see the detail textures from far away, you're going to see the blatant tiling. Even the oft-praised HI shots show this. Detail textures only should be notably visible at close range, as that's when they make the most benefit and are the most needed.