Ns Outdoor Mapping Guidelines/rules

Kouji_San

<span style='color:gray'>Since I've read a lot of questions, suggestions and even flames in <b><a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=60932&st=0' target='_blank'>this thread</a></b>. I had kind of a little brain storm and came up with these guidelines for outdoor mapping for Natural-Selection. Flaming won't help anyone (well mayb get the irritation out of the flamers system). And since a Kouji San does not flame I thought of this more creative/helpfull way of helping the outdoor mappers to create better outdoor areas which can still work in a Natural-Selection map.
And maybe stop the flaming and posts which annoyed some people <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> </span>

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:yellow'><b>NS outdoor mapping guidelines/rules:</b></span>
The official <b><a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/Mapping_Guidelines.html#Avoid_Outdoor_Spaces' target='_blank'>mapping guidelines</a></b> do not answer the many questions some people have about  outdoor mapping, it only gives some suggestions. And since some mappers can't be stopped from creating large outdoor areas, these guidelines are here for them to create better outdoor areas of the maps. Since we all want better/playable maps for Natural-Selection.

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:gray'>Something to keep in mind about Natural-selection:

<b><a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showuser=14555' target='_blank'>By KungFuDiscoMonkey:</a></b>
Immersion. When you're playing a game and your really immersed you forget that your in a game and you start to think that your in a real place. With outdoor areas you have to draw the line (or place the sky brushes) somewhere and it ruins the immersion when you run into the sky brushes.

Also, outdoor areas with areas where you can view long distances affect the ballance of the classes. Marines have mostly ranged weapons while Aliens have mostly melee. It would be rather frustrating to be running a 100 m dash to bite a marine just to have him turn around when you're still 50 m away and get shot.

The NS Devs are also trying to keep a constent theme. If you read one of the backgrounds/FAQs/Something (I forgot) they talk about how NS is all about claustrofobic (sp?) INDOOR environments.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:yellow'><b>The rules for large "outdoor" areas:</b></span>
<ul><li>Always keep in mind that the Half-Life engine is not good at rendering very complex large areas.
<b>A few useful things a mapper can use:</b>
- Make use of visblockers so a player can't see into a large area from a complex
room (information on visblockers: <b><a href='http://www.annihilator.com/gameediting/halflife/editing/tutorials/mapconcepts.html#visblockers' target='_blank'>by annihilator</a></b>)
- Make use of hint brushes so you are in control of vis in the large areas
(tutorials on hint brushes I found very usefull: <b><a href='http://countermap.counter-strike.net/Tutorials/tutorial.php?id=2' target='_blank'>by Relic25</a></b>, <b><a href='http://lunaran.fragland.net/lsite.php?content=hints' target='_blank'>by Lunaran</a></b>, <b><a href='http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?doc=1043477348-95410300' target='_blank'>by TitaNiuM</a></b>)</li></ul>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b><a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showuser=14555' target='_blank'>By KungFuDiscoMonkey:</a></b>
<span style='color:gray'>The original Half-life showed that you CAN do outdoor areas in the Half-Life engine although you need to have a good grasp of all the tools at your disposal. Especially think of the chapter Surface Tension. You have the whole scene at the dam, you have several different canyons. If you notice how they did them you never have long straight areas, they are always curved. If you look at the dam area from above it's in sorta a 's' shape. You could do outdoor areas you would just need to keep 'bending' them to keep them from killing half-life.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>Familiarize yourself with <b><a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/index.html' target='_blank'>the Frontiersman manual</a></b> and especially with <b><a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_species.html' target='_blank'>Alien species</a></b>. So you know what their abilities are. (probably you already know it)</li></ul>
<ul><li>Alien species and large areas:
<b><a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_skulk.html' target='_blank'>Skulk</a></b>, a Skulk is an ambusher and needs a great deal of cover to attack over a long range.
<b><a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_gorge.html' target='_blank'>Gorge</a></b>, a Gorge needs to be able to escape and needs cover to do this.
<b><a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_lerk.html' target='_blank'>Lerk</a></b>, create some ledges for them to lurk or rest and make an assesment of the situation to attack.
<b><a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_fade.html' target='_blank'>Fade</a></b>, they don't need a lot of consideration in wide open areas since they can blink and the cover built for Gorges or Skulks will do.
<b><a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_onos.html' target='_blank'>Onos</a></b>, same as Fade but keep in mind that this beast is large so put some big things as cover in the large areas to.

Map essentials for this are boxes, equipment, debris, support beams or anything else you can come up with...

The reason for the cover is because the marines have long range capability and know how to use it. A <b>Skulk</b> for example running/leaping towards a marine squad won't stand a chance if it's out in the open. The same even goes for an <b>Onos</b>, it may look powerfull but charging into an open area with a marine squad emptying their guns/rifles into the Onos will most likely kill/redeem the onos.
The bends <b>KungFuDiscoMonkey</b> metioned are also helpful because they would keep from making the aliens do 100 m dashes to hit a marine. For added benefit, you could add some debris to the canyon to give more cover.</li></ul>
<ul><li>Keep in mind that the commander is not able to zoom in or out. So extreme elevation in a "classic" Natural Selection map won't work, because the commander must be able to build and select with ease. Combat maps however won't have this problem.</li></ul>

<span style='color:yellow'><b>An example idea on outdoor mapping:</b></span>
Anyone who has played Half-Life multiplayer probably knows about the map <i>crossfire</i>. If not start Half-life and load this map to have a look at it so the following suggestions will be more clear. These suggestions/ideas are only about the large area in front of the bunker:

The layout of the large area in front of the bunker as it is in crossfire is a <b>"no go" </b> for Natural-Selection. However with a few alterations it could work and very well even.
<ol type='1'><li>Create a similar area only make it look like a canyon or crater so you only havea sky brush near the top.
</li><li>Put boxes, equipment, debris, support beams and anything else you can come up with (see "Alien species and large areas" on why to do this)
</li><li>Put some ledges on the wall of the canyon or crater for the lerk</li></ol>
<b><span style='color:yellow'>Problems and solutions on the map example idea:</span></b>
<ul><li><b>Skulks and their wallclimbing ability, they can walk on sky brushes:</b>
This one is solved with the use of blockers so the skulk can't get near the sky
and thusly preventing it from walking on the sky.</li></ul>
<ul><li><b>Lerks can fly:</b>
1. If you make a outdoor level/area this high why would the Lerk want to fly aways from the others and not play the game.
2. If you the mapper really have a problem with this you can always put some kind of electrical field/shield which was put there to contain the Khaara.
3. Another solution if it's a problem. Make it look like the area outside the colonie/crater/canyon is extremely hostile and inflicts extreme damage when one wanders of into that area.</li></ul>
<ul><li><b>Fade and the blinking ability:</b>
This one is not a real problem since its not really used to fly. And the Fade will
most likely run out of energy before reaching the sky. And if the energy
shortage is high enough risk a deadly fall towards the ground.
If the sky isn't high enough solution 2 and 3 in the Lerk explanation can be
used.</li></ul>
<ul><li><b>How about the jetpacking marine:</b>
The explanation of the Fade can be aplied here since the jetpack has a slighty
less energy problem as the fade, but the marine isn't as mobile as the Lerk
when it comes to true flying. The use of jetpacks is more to speed up the
moving speed of the marines to get from point A to B.</li></ul>
<b><span style='color:yellow'>Final note:</span></b>

As a last solution for smaller sky areas is the use of bacteruim in front of the sky brush which acts like some kind of window. Which was created by the bacterium to keep out the hostile environment not to damage the lifesupport for the Khaara. An addition (as a could have) to this is when you get close you can get damage or something.

<b>Extra strategy addition for the Lerk and even the Skulk:</b>
If you make the area high enough the Lerk/Skulk could be able to do a divebomb attack. Which only is really possible at the moment on ns_bast, refinery (hope its finished soon). And an even higher area then refinery on ns_bast lets the Lerk/Skulk create more speed to do this.

When creating a large outdoor map/area. You must give an explanation why there is an outdoor area and how come the sky isn't acessable (boundries, shield etc...). The solutions I have given here are suggestions and can make an outdoor map work in the Natural-Selection mod.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<span style='color:gray'>I would like to have feedback/suggestions for additions, changes or typos even. And please <b>DO NOT</b> flame since that won't be helpfull <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[edit]<ul><li>Additions and grammatical correction to the guidelines.</li><li>Made the layout compatible with resolution 800x600 and above and more readable using the forum list function.</li></ul>[/edit]

GreetzZz Kouji San.
</span>

Thaldarin

Its not that we don't like outdoor areas. Its people always talk about totally outdoor maps, things like Kawaks latest co_ map is heavily outside, but suits ns as he has knowledge of abilities etc. Its more of a "Do it and Show Us Don't Post Your Damn Insane Ideas". Nice idea for this thread though to inform people.

KungFuDiscoMonkey

Nice work. You seamed to cover everything very well. Now maybe people will at least read this if they don't read the mapping faq and quit posting the same suggestion every week.

ShenTraX

Just say no to ns_rocktexturedcubewithskybox

[edit]

almost forgot... props kouji! nice bro.

[/edit]

KungFuDiscoMonkey

I just wanted to copy and paste my thoughts from the other thread because some of them may be good to keep in consideration.

<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Feb 10 2004, 01:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Feb 10 2004, 01:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Against:
Immersion. When you're playing a game and your really immersed you forget that your in a game and you start to think that your in a real place. With outdoor areas you have to draw the line (or place the sky brushes) somewhere and it ruins the immersion when you run into the sky brushes.

Also, outdoor areas with areas where you can view long distances affect the ballance of the classes. Marines have mostly ranged weapons while Aliens have mostly melee. It would be rather frustrating to be running a 100 m dash to bite a marine just to have him turn around when you're still 50 m away and get shot.

The NS Devs are also trying to keep a constent theme. If you read one of the backgrounds/FAQs/Something (I forget) they talk about how NS is all about claustrofobic (sp?) INDOOR environments.


For:
The origional Half-life showed that you CAN do outdoor areas in the Half-Life engine although you need to have a good grasp of all the tools at your disposal. Especially think of the chapter Surface Tension. You have the whole scene at the dam, you have several different canyons. If you notice how they did them you never have long straight areas, they are always curved. If you look at the dam area from above it's in sorta a 's' shape. You could do outdoor areas you would just need to keep 'bending' them to keep them from killing half-life. The bends are also helpfull because they would keep from making the aliens do 100 m dashes to hit a marine. For added benefit, you could add some debris to the canyon to give more cover.




I think it's very possible to do outdoor areas with time and planning. Me personally I like to have the outdoor areas as eye candy and prevent the players from going there but it's really up to the mapper. I know there have been lots of flames about this so maybe we should just agree to disagree and stop brining up this topic ever week or so. Since this subject has gotten so heated ever time maybe we need to have the mods start locking them when they appear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Kouji_San

already added the part on the longrange capability of the marines but I see more interesting stuff in the quote. Thanks I'll add the information on the building style.

GreetzZz Kouji San

KungFuDiscoMonkey

Yeah but I liked my wording and examples better <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Kouji_San

Thats why I quoted you a few times <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

KungFuDiscoMonkey

Yay, now I feel special <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

The_Cheat

<!--QuoteBegin-Kouji San+Feb 10 2004, 11:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kouji San @ Feb 10 2004, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:yellow'><b>How about the jetpacking marine:</b></span>
      The explanation of the Fade can be aplied here since the jetpack has a slighty less energy problem as the fade, but the marine
      still has the high risk of plummeting to his death.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines with a jetpack do not take fall damage. You may want to edit this. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Kouji_San

I changed it thanks

<span style='color:gray'>Didn't know that since I don't really use jetpack that often, and as I remember from version 2.0 and lower they could take damage.</span>

KungFuDiscoMonkey

Have you PMed any mods about getting this stickied? You have done a very nice job putting together these guidelines and a sticky would make sure that it doesn't get lost amongst the other threads. And as a benefit, if people do as little as skim this title it should cut down on the number of "Outdoor Maps" threads.

Kouji_San

<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Feb 10 2004, 11:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Feb 10 2004, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Have you PMed any mods about getting this stickied? You have done a very nice job putting together these guidelines and a sticky would make sure that it doesn't get lost amongst the other threads. And as a benefit, if people do as little as skim this title it should cut down on the number of "Outdoor Maps" threads. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
RE: PM
Just did that <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

RE: nice job etc...
Thanks

RE: Cut down on the number of "Outdoor Maps" threads.
I certainly hope so.

Kouji_San

Bump <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> was on page two we can't have that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

HoundDawg

<!--QuoteBegin-Kouji San+Feb 11 2004, 08:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kouji San @ Feb 11 2004, 08:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bump <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> was on page two we can't have that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this should be webbed. Nice work! It's one of my suggestions in #nsmapping during that flame thread.

Kouji_San

Thanks to XP-Cagey the guidelines are going to be linked in the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61923' target='_blank'>FAQ</a> under "Map Guidelines" with the question "Can I create outdoor maps in NS?"
Also removed some typos he found.

Thanks XP-Cagey <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

GreetzZz Kouji San

KungFuDiscoMonkey

Sounds good. You just keep it up to date and I'll add more 'observations' <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->