Acid Rocket

SVisions · February 2004

Anyone else wish it was back to the way it was before?

According to the changelog it was changed to make it "more fun to use" but that just reads to me "make it worthless to use". I never get acid rocket in combat anymore, and instead opt for SoF. I use acid rocket to get some damage in before I go blink+swipe them, or to finish them off after the blink swipe. I don't want to stand there trying to hit with double the amount of acid rockets to do an equal amount of damage.

Zek · February 2004

To be perfectly blunt, acid rockets are gimped now. Sure maybe you can eventually kill a turret with it or something, but this is a hive 3 weapon we're talking about here. I got a L3 armor LA to stand still and be killed with acid rocket and it took about 5 seconds to kill him. That's ridiculous; this is hive 3, complete map control by the aliens. At least before, they killed people pretty quickly even if they drained adren fast. Now, sure you can spam them for a long time with adren, but it takes twice as long to do so(damage for energy is NOT an even tradeoff). Have fun taking out a structure with acid rocket if a single marine is welding it.

They should be at their old damage values with the new energy cost. They were weak before the patch, and they were nerfed? Why? They need to be stronger than before and putting them at their old damage would accomplish that, while still making them more "fun" as Flayra defines it...

Al_Kaholic · February 2004

Acid Rockets were rather good the way they were before the revamp. 5 Acid Rockets(as long as the firer had evolved Adrenaline) could be fired at one time, and would be enough to take down a light armored Marine with lvl 3 armor. Halving the damage seems like too much of a nerf, even if the Fade has much more lasting power than before. Plus there's really no need to halve the energy cost; Adrenaline makes their firing capability near infinite now, which I feel really shouldn't be. I'd say that a quarter damage/energy reduction from the original would be enough to keep Acid Rocket fairly balanced.

Maian · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Anyone else wish it was back to the way it was before?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I don't like neither the current acid rocket nor the previous acid rocket, but I must say the previous acid rocket was better.

UKchaos · February 2004

I use it for mine clearing in combat, otherwise its not worth the upgrade point.

The_Finch · February 2004

Unfortunately, "fun" doesn't necessarily mean "effective".

The only acid rocket that was worth using was the one in 1.0X. And since there were a bunch of people complaining about it, it got kicked to the third hive. It was weak for a third hive weapon in 2.01 and it's even weaker now.

Evo · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Feb 8 2004, 09:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Anyone else wish it was back to the way it was before?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I don't like neither the current acid rocket nor the previous acid rocket, but I must say the previous acid rocket was better.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Ditto.

The *only* time I use acid rocket is to shoot down JPers (which can take a long time), and to harass the rines when they turtle their base and start nade spamming so bad that I can't get a swipe in edgewise.
Otherwise, as a fade, I find getting up close and personal is the only effective way to rip stuff up. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

DoL_Thunder · February 2004

You are forgetting something. A Fade alone spamming acid rockets deal little to no damage, thats true, but if acid rockets were good, you wouldn't see one Fade, but 4 Fades instead, spamming acid rockets at the same time, which is a devastating tactic also known as "acid rain".

Back in 1.04 days 2 hives and 2 minutes later usually meant game over for marines because of this, jetpackers and heavy marines alike getting trashed by 4-5 acid rockets every second (from 4-5 different Fades) until they are dead. And 4 acid rockets dealt a ton of splash damage.

I think the first step to balance 3rd hive abilities would be limiting the number of alien team members that can evolve into higher lifeforms, at least for classic NS tournament mode. 2 Oni, 3 Fades, 2-4 lerks, limitless gorges and skulks. Thats because everytime they buff a 3rd hive ability, players find a way to "exploit" it, like the acid rain tactic I mentioned above. Also keep in mind that if you play on these huge 15v15 servers you could even now in beta 2 get 6 fades and try out some acid rocket spamming and see how powerful it can be. The same way warcraft 3 gets imbalanced on Random Team 3v3 and 4v4 (units/spells with AoE are too good) same thing happens for NS above 8v8.

Cxwf · February 2004

Yes, Acid Rain was devastating to the balance of 1.04...but thats because Acid Rocket was a Hive 1 ability in 1.04. Now that its a Hive 3 ability, its a bit more deserving of some effectiveness.

Speaking of which...does anyone know where I can find the changelogs for the last few versions? Or do I just have to go into a server and test the rockets to see how much damage they do exactly?

lochness · February 2004

when hive 3 roles around and im a fade, im not looking forward to a.rocket, but focus.

MonsieurEvil · February 2004

<span style='color:white'>Artificial de-bumping due to forum time/date problem, please ignore this post</span>

ToastOMator · February 2004

Its simple:
half damage => twice as useless
half energy costs => twice as fun

Maian · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ToastOMator @ Feb 8 2004, 06:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Its simple:
half damage => twice as useless
half energy costs => twice as fun </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Both damage and energy cost were reduced. But rate of fire was left unchanged.

Cxwf · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo_fx @ Feb 9 2004, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> AR is 15 now isnt it?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
15? That would make it weaker than the Pistol! Imagine a Pistol that did slightly less damage, didn't benefit from weapon upgrades, and only fired about as fast as a GL. Who would use that?

lyndak · February 2004

The new Acid rockets are useless. "Period."

NeonSpyder · February 2004

i can remember the first time i used acid rocket, back in the good old days, when an onos inspired the marinesto wet there pants. and when the fade was akin to a specialised shock-troop archer monstrosity..... ah the good old days....... and now we have fades who are afraid... we have skulks who cringe when they hear boot-thuds... what happened? when did NS change? marines never feel fear anymore. they luagh when the fade's start shooting acid at them, the marines are getting a nice exfoliating cleanser nowadays.

lets think for a moment shall we?

acid rocket : definition: a sack containing <i>highly</i> corrosive acid is propelled through the air, splattering open when it contacts a solid surface. this should hurt yes?

it doesnt.

bring the RoF down if you have to. but increase damage to 60-70 for the love of gorges!

Salaman · February 2004

The original 1.0x rocket was 50 damage, the 2.0x rocket was 40, and took slightly less energy than the 50 rocket. Now it does 20 damage, and takes even less energy, but agreed that it seems even more worthless than ever. They're more like bags filled with green kool-aid than a real weapon. The gorge's spitwads, or as someone else mentioned, the marine's pistol, do more damage than the pitiful AR now <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /> .

Acid rocket, even at its height of power, has been a fairly tame weapon, compared to the likes of the HMG or GL. I agree that it should be made a more effective weapon, as it is one of the few newbie friendly alien weapons that doesnt take a skillful chaining of abilities(ie, leap+bite, blink+swipe, umbra+flying skill+bite) to be used to its greatest effect.

NeonSpyder · February 2004

i can see why flay thinks the new acid rocket if more 'fun' it is more fun for marines surely, they no longer care about dodging the bags of kool-aid being hurled at them, one med pack will fix them right up. the aliens arent threatening any more it seems. the marines barely ever feel the terror gripping at their heart.

marine one : Look out! there is a fade outside our base!

marine two : ....so?

*fade hurridly mixes kool-aid, chuckling softly to himself*

the only times marines are terrified is when they cant locate the chuckling skulks surrounding them, in dark corridors when they cant see the aliens, when the know they are there, but cant see or find them. (thats a bit off topic but i just needed to say it)

the easiest ways to end games in 2.01 was to have small dc/mc bases outside of rine spawn and 4 players go fade, 1 gorge, and an onos to defend the fades while the acid rocket the crap out of the marines,

cant do that in 3.0.... even if the whole alien team went fade and started shooting, the marines would just be able to weld everything up. fades acid rocket was good in 2.01, but it should still be increased slightly in damage, and maybe slowed down a tiny amount in RoF.

matso · February 2004

Actually, the reason why acid rocket was nerfed was probably to let meta regen energy. When meta regens energy, you are looking at even celerity fades being able to keep up an average of 2 (old-style) AR/sec rate indefinately.

Cxwf · February 2004

Huh...your right...2.01 AR was 40 damage. I was sure it was 60 damage. Even at 40 it was not very strong, but you could get some decent use out of it. At 20 its substantially worse than Spikes, which were only Hive 1 and are now gone.

Did you hear that everyone? We had spikes (10 damage, Hive1, very fast ROF, very low energy), now we have AR (20 damage, Hive3, less than half ROF, more than twice energy). The Aliens ranged attacks have been flat out nerfed.

twiliteblue · February 2004

Spike used to do 16 dmg in 1.0x and 18 in 2.0x! *And* it was the sniping Lerk's main weapon due to removal of its tracer in 2.0x.

Now that spike is gone and acid rocket has become a <i>fun</i> weapon, marines no longer get any serious threat from alien ranged attacks. Good luck vs'ing those shotties.

"Oh cr@p!"

*redeems self by shooting AR at my feet*

Wirhe · February 2004

Don't like it now; if there really is 5 fades spamming acid rain on the marines, then they ARE supposed to go down like flies. It's a 3 hive ability PLUS great team-work! Even alone the acid is supposed to do some serious damage -at least half of swipe.

(IIRC, swipe does 100 dam, acid 20 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /> )

RyoOhki · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think the first step to balance 3rd hive abilities would be limiting the number of alien team members that can evolve into higher lifeforms, at least for classic NS tournament mode. 2 Oni, 3 Fades, 2-4 lerks, limitless gorges and skulks. Thats because everytime they buff a 3rd hive ability, players find a way to "exploit" it, like the acid rain tactic I mentioned above. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

3rd hive abilities are unbalanced by definition. They are there to end the game; the alien side is supposed to win with 3 hives. Comebacks are generally very, very difficult, or at least they used to be. Now though, 3rd hive abilities keep getting nerfed. Web was reduced in number and can now be welded off, Acid Rocket has been nerfed hard and Charge is an insult to the 3rd hive ability of the most powerful unit in the game. And why is this happening? because 3rd hive abilities can be used in Combat earlier than they would show up in a Classic game, and they're not ment to be game-enders in Combat.

I don't like that one little bit. Getting 3 hives in Classic is a long and hard process, and the alien side should be justly rewarded for being able to hold and secure 3 major points on a map, plus of course gathering the required res. Instead, they get some lackluster abilities; truth be told, I more look forward to having a 3rd chamber, not the hive abilities that are ment to be so good.

Combat interferring with Classic gameplay isn't on in my opinion.

Lucky · February 2004

That's odd, I played on a server that drew damage, and every time the acid shower hit a marine it did 50 damage in 2.01. And 50 was fine imo, as long as you knew how to get those 50 damage done every time (instead of playing a lamer and trying to shoot the acid rockets at marines - that was fun to watch as a marine even in 2.01)
Personally I find that with adrenaline and primal scream acid rockets still kill freshly respanwned marines in ~1-1.5 seconds. But that's when you get to calmly aim at them while getting constant primal scream. In battle, acid rocket is barely good enough for softening the armor on LA marines, and absolutely useless vs heavies.

Rokiyo · February 2004

Wait, so now the acid rocket is WEAKER than spikes?
2 more damage per hit but slower ROF....

Rokiyo · February 2004

Personally I'd like to see acid rockets as high energy drain rockets so that the fade would have to get a gorge in to drop down a heap of MC in order to be able to do anything with it. You could almost compare my idea of the acid rocket to that of the siege tanks in starcraft, and while they are useful on the move, but when they deploy somewhere they get extremely powerful.

Requiring a fade to have a gorge nearby to be able to effectively spam would encourage teamwork (perhaps healspray could add weapon energy too, so that a gorge could recharge fades and lerks on the run instead of having only the option of putting down MCs nearby)?

Maian · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Feb 8 2004, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Wait, so now the acid rocket is WEAKER than spikes?
2 more damage per hit but slower ROF....  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Well, AR deals splash damage as well. But it still sucks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Cxwf · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tails @ Feb 8 2004, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Don't like it now; if there really is 5 fades spamming acid rain on the marines, then they ARE supposed to go down like flies. It's a 3 hive ability PLUS great team-work! Even alone the acid is supposed to do some serious damage -at least half of swipe.

(IIRC, swipe does 100 dam, acid 20 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /> )  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Swipe is 80, AR was 60, if its been nerfed by half that would mean 30 now.

Akalamanaia · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Feb 8 2004, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tails @ Feb 8 2004, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Don't like it now; if there really is 5 fades spamming acid rain on the marines, then they ARE supposed to go down like flies. It's a 3 hive ability PLUS great team-work! Even alone the acid is supposed to do some serious damage -at least half of swipe.

(IIRC, swipe does 100 dam, acid 20 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /> ) </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Swipe is 80, AR was 60, if its been nerfed by half that would mean 30 now.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Its shurely less than that, i cant even kill jper from 20 direct hits and he didnt have refill.

Cxwf · February 2004

Were spikes 18? I never really payed attention to that. But yes, AR is now FAR worse than spikes, especially if spikes really were 18. +2 damage per hit, but even with the reduced adrenaline cost it is still more than twice the adrenaline for spikes, less than half the ROF, and is Hive3 instead of Hive1. Even with the splash damage, its a sorry excuse for a ranged weapon.

Maybe we should just give Fades spikes?

Diablo_fx · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aka'lamanaia @ Feb 9 2004, 06:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Feb 8 2004, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tails @ Feb 8 2004, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Don't like it now; if there really is 5 fades spamming acid rain on the marines, then they ARE supposed to go down like flies. It's a 3 hive ability PLUS great team-work! Even alone the acid is supposed to do some serious damage -at least half of swipe.

(IIRC, swipe does 100 dam, acid 20 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /> ) </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Swipe is 80, AR was 60, if its been nerfed by half that would mean 30 now. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Its shurely less than that, i cant even kill jper from 20 direct hits and he didnt have refill.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
AR is 15 now isnt it?

Acid Rocket

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