Minority groups as in special interest groups, many women never have abortions so it's not really an issue. Groups like NOW don't necessarily represent all women, since not all women think that abortion is morally right.
<!--QuoteBegin-dr.d+Feb 7 2004, 09:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Feb 7 2004, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I want to derail this thread and have everyone read my speech and give me a percentage, I'll start
dr.d personal: 100% economic: 99.9% <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> dr. d
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Feb 8 2004, 02:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Feb 8 2004, 02:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-dr.d+Feb 7 2004, 09:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Feb 7 2004, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I want to derail this thread and have everyone read my speech and give me a percentage, I'll start
dr.d personal: 100% economic: 99.9% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> dr. d
All you need is a US born citizen to be your puppet and your in d.
EDIT: Original Economic estimate a bit high. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, yes a puppet, I'll go pick up a teenage neo-communist who wants to change the world and warp his mind to become my political slave.
<!--QuoteBegin-Athena+Feb 7 2004, 10:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Athena @ Feb 7 2004, 10:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulkbait: I used to feel the same way... and then I realized that not voting accomplishes nothing. Voting for a candidate that will at least accomplish <i>some</i> good will at least make progress in one area, as opposed to bombing (no pun intended) in everything left and right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Even if the "lesser of two evils" voting plan doesn't work out, you can at least vote for a third party. The two party system isn't doing us any real favors, so getting the little guy some funding (via minimum % of vote to get it) would be nice.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dread+Feb 7 2004, 03:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Feb 7 2004, 03:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just came to my mind: wouldn't it be cool if we had this com-pu-tar as a president and citizens would just fill out a form like in that test, then all forms would be merged and we would have a president just like the majority wants.
Uh...yeah <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ever play Deus Ex2?
Seriously though, in this day and age, given an open source and SECURE net voting method, a direct democracy is possible on the technical end, although the people may not be as unbiased to issues as a professional would. As in media swaying the opinion, etc.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Warning: extremely liberal viewpoint follows.
I personally don't think the country would be capable of a true democracy. We simply have too many uninformed people who are too ready to react with their gut feeling or go for instant gratification rather than make a careful analysis of the problem. "Would you rather have a tax cut or a tax increase?" Everyone's going to vote for a tax cut, failing to realize that there may be a period of major spending on the horizon and that a small tax hike *now* will be better than a big one later to play catch-up. "Are you in favor of stricter gun controls?" "No way," says the middle-class farmer from South Dakota, not thinking that gun controls might help curb violent crime and improve the safety of our country's extremely troubled inner cities.
I trust elected officials to think with foresight and apply their knowledge of our country's laws and needs to making educated, forward-thinking decisions. I trust them to see the *whole* picture while still keeping the immediate (me) in mind. That's why I elected them, and why I trust them to elect the president.
I personally don't think the country would be capable of a true democracy. We simply have too many uninformed people who are too ready to react with their gut feeling or go for instant gratification rather than make a careful analysis of the problem. "Would you rather have a tax cut or a tax increase?" Everyone's going to vote for a tax cut, failing to realize that there may be a period of major spending on the horizon and that a small tax hike *now* will be better than a big one later to play catch-up. "Are you in favor of stricter gun controls?" "No way," says the middle-class farmer from South Dakota, not thinking that gun controls might help curb violent crime and improve the safety of our country's extremely troubled inner cities.
I trust elected officials to think with foresight and apply their knowledge of our country's laws and needs to making educated, forward-thinking decisions. I trust them to see the *whole* picture while still keeping the immediate (me) in mind. That's why I elected them, and why I trust them to elect the president. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gun control laws imply you care about the law, criminals generally don't. That coupled with the fact that every single major city in the world that has given their citizens the right to have concealment licenses has had a sharp decline in homocides makes me dubious of any argument directly linking looser gun laws to higher crime rates.
As far as uneducated voters go that is where my stance on campaign reform comes in, as long as candiates can market themselves effectively they will win, and until the comercial aspect of elections becomes null and void we will never have a true democracy.
The only problem is that wasted vote syndrome is enough to make sure that your candidate never gets elected assuming it's a third party. But hey, if one state gets enough votes it's enough to steal some electoral votes and really mess up the other candidates.
Anyways Skulkbait, voting accomplishes much, maybe not in the presidential election, I agree a bit there, but if you really want to make a difference (And I'm serious), start voting in your states senators elections, and your districts representative election. Those are the elections that really matter when it comes down to it, a senator or a rep in a committee position can do alot of good for you when it comes to the issues they ran on. (If you have any problems with bureaucracy, try calling your district rep, they love to do casework for constituents)
The presidential position isn't that important if you think about it. He actually seems to be the fall man for Congress. Since ordinary Joe American knows nothing about the political system most seem to think that the president controls more than he really does.
Well, coil, if a democracy wouldn't work on the nationwide level, why don't we split into city-states so the democratic system would work. Not gonna happen.
I'm from europe, but as a close follower of american politics, I decided to take the test anyway, and surprisingly (not really, I'm a liberal socialist ****, and I pretty much loathe anything the current administration stands for), Bush and Cheney both finished last with 20%.
George Bush: Total 20% Personal 20% Economic 20%
Mr. **** Total 20% Personal 15% Economic 25%
Top scorers were Ralph Nader (total: 53% personal: 50% economic: 55%) and John Kerry (total 53% personal: 60% economic: 45%). While I may not be a true european representative, I do think that these results clearly show the difference between european and the american mentality. I don't, however, believe that the test was fully accurate, as I (being european) didn't have an opinion on several of the topics.
Coil said something I find dead interesting. One thing that has always struck me as odd with elections in America, is the low vote percentage. In the states, they're usually around 50%, whereas in europe they're known to be around 90%, if not higher. My bet? It's not that people aren't interested in politics given the right conditions. It's that people don't have the right choices, as the two big parties in america are both considered right wing parties from a european perspective. It's that the whole thing is about money, something that doesn't leave any room for new players, especially those who are to the left of the democrats. And it's about popularity, not actual politics. I'll admit that the money thing is a problem during european elections as well, but from I've seen, from what I've gathered, it's much more extreme over there.
The thing is, there's not much to do in the states if you're even remotely left wing. Noone to vote for. Noone to support. In some ways, I guess you could say that american politics have become stagnant. Or let me put it differently: I'm all for choice. Something I feel you guys don't exactly have.
And with this stagnancy comes the loss of interest.
There's plenty of choice which is why there's little voter turn out, in addition to complicated voter registration unlike some countries where you are automatically registered at the voting age requirement. There's tons of elections all the time because of our federalist system, local, state and national elections in addition to electing representatives and senators and limitless propositions. Voting becomes less important because theres literally hundreds of things to take care of.
Also, not to mention, many people can't take the time out of the day to go to the polls and not everyone votes absentee.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
I would imagine that voter percentage will be higher than it's been in a long time this election... mostly because the age group that votes the least -- first time voters -- is the one most upset with Bush.
Maybe the Dems can vitalize young college liberals, the only problem is that it won't really make that much of a difference because they're concentrated in one area in a couple areas, which probably wouldn't result giving a majority in their states to give the endorsed Dem any EC votes. (Exception, Nebraska / Maine, although they still might give a majority in their districts)
The real problem is that younger voters 18-24 or so don't vote consistently, in terms of voting period, not just voting to a certain idealogy. Politicians don't focus attention on the group unless they vote consistently because they aren't reliable. If we managed to get an extremely high vote percentage, you'd see that maybe politicians might pay more attention which essentially helps much more than a realigned oval office ever could.
Hopefully we will see a high voting percentage in younger voters this year coil. I hope you're right.
Comments
dr.d
personal: 100%
economic: 99.9% <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
dr. d
Total: 90%
Personal: 100%
Economic: 80%
dr.d
personal: 100%
economic: 99.9% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dr. d
Total: 90%
Personal: 100%
Economic: 80% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dr.d
Total: ~65%
Personal: ~80%
Economic: ~50%
All you need is a US born citizen to be your puppet and your in d.
EDIT: Original Economic estimate a bit high.
We need a libertarian candidate in the US.
dr.d
personal: 100%
economic: 99.9% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dr. d
Total: 90%
Personal: 100%
Economic: 80% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dr.d
Total: ~65%
Personal: ~80%
Economic: ~50%
All you need is a US born citizen to be your puppet and your in d.
EDIT: Original Economic estimate a bit high. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, yes a puppet, I'll go pick up a teenage neo-communist who wants to change the world and warp his mind to become my political slave.
Even if the "lesser of two evils" voting plan doesn't work out, you can at least vote for a third party. The two party system isn't doing us any real favors, so getting the little guy some funding (via minimum % of vote to get it) would be nice.
Duh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Uh...yeah <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever play Deus Ex2?
Seriously though, in this day and age, given an open source and SECURE net voting method, a direct democracy is possible on the technical end, although the people may not be as unbiased to issues as a professional would. As in media swaying the opinion, etc.
I personally don't think the country would be capable of a true democracy. We simply have too many uninformed people who are too ready to react with their gut feeling or go for instant gratification rather than make a careful analysis of the problem. "Would you rather have a tax cut or a tax increase?" Everyone's going to vote for a tax cut, failing to realize that there may be a period of major spending on the horizon and that a small tax hike *now* will be better than a big one later to play catch-up. "Are you in favor of stricter gun controls?" "No way," says the middle-class farmer from South Dakota, not thinking that gun controls might help curb violent crime and improve the safety of our country's extremely troubled inner cities.
I trust elected officials to think with foresight and apply their knowledge of our country's laws and needs to making educated, forward-thinking decisions. I trust them to see the *whole* picture while still keeping the immediate (me) in mind. That's why I elected them, and why I trust them to elect the president.
I personally don't think the country would be capable of a true democracy. We simply have too many uninformed people who are too ready to react with their gut feeling or go for instant gratification rather than make a careful analysis of the problem. "Would you rather have a tax cut or a tax increase?" Everyone's going to vote for a tax cut, failing to realize that there may be a period of major spending on the horizon and that a small tax hike *now* will be better than a big one later to play catch-up. "Are you in favor of stricter gun controls?" "No way," says the middle-class farmer from South Dakota, not thinking that gun controls might help curb violent crime and improve the safety of our country's extremely troubled inner cities.
I trust elected officials to think with foresight and apply their knowledge of our country's laws and needs to making educated, forward-thinking decisions. I trust them to see the *whole* picture while still keeping the immediate (me) in mind. That's why I elected them, and why I trust them to elect the president. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gun control laws imply you care about the law, criminals generally don't. That coupled with the fact that every single major city in the world that has given their citizens the right to have concealment licenses has had a sharp decline in homocides makes me dubious of any argument directly linking looser gun laws to higher crime rates.
As far as uneducated voters go that is where my stance on campaign reform comes in, as long as candiates can market themselves effectively they will win, and until the comercial aspect of elections becomes null and void we will never have a true democracy.
Anyways Skulkbait, voting accomplishes much, maybe not in the presidential election, I agree a bit there, but if you really want to make a difference (And I'm serious), start voting in your states senators elections, and your districts representative election. Those are the elections that really matter when it comes down to it, a senator or a rep in a committee position can do alot of good for you when it comes to the issues they ran on. (If you have any problems with bureaucracy, try calling your district rep, they love to do casework for constituents)
The presidential position isn't that important if you think about it. He actually seems to be the fall man for Congress. Since ordinary Joe American knows nothing about the political system most seem to think that the president controls more than he really does.
"The president will always recieve too much credit or too little."
God, just let an AI take over already!
George Bush:
Total 20%
Personal 20%
Economic 20%
Mr. ****
Total 20%
Personal 15%
Economic 25%
Top scorers were Ralph Nader (total: 53% personal: 50% economic: 55%) and John Kerry (total 53% personal: 60% economic: 45%). While I may not be a true european representative, I do think that these results clearly show the difference between european and the american mentality. I don't, however, believe that the test was fully accurate, as I (being european) didn't have an opinion on several of the topics.
Coil said something I find dead interesting. One thing that has always struck me as odd with elections in America, is the low vote percentage. In the states, they're usually around 50%, whereas in europe they're known to be around 90%, if not higher. My bet? It's not that people aren't interested in politics given the right conditions. It's that people don't have the right choices, as the two big parties in america are both considered right wing parties from a european perspective. It's that the whole thing is about money, something that doesn't leave any room for new players, especially those who are to the left of the democrats. And it's about popularity, not actual politics. I'll admit that the money thing is a problem during european elections as well, but from I've seen, from what I've gathered, it's much more extreme over there.
The thing is, there's not much to do in the states if you're even remotely left wing. Noone to vote for. Noone to support. In some ways, I guess you could say that american politics have become stagnant. Or let me put it differently: I'm all for choice. Something I feel you guys don't exactly have.
And with this stagnancy comes the loss of interest.
Also, not to mention, many people can't take the time out of the day to go to the polls and not everyone votes absentee.
The real problem is that younger voters 18-24 or so don't vote consistently, in terms of voting period, not just voting to a certain idealogy. Politicians don't focus attention on the group unless they vote consistently because they aren't reliable. If we managed to get an extremely high vote percentage, you'd see that maybe politicians might pay more attention which essentially helps much more than a realigned oval office ever could.
Hopefully we will see a high voting percentage in younger voters this year coil. I hope you're right.