I've had some success with a1-a2-w1/2/3-a3, in 3.0. Reason? Armor 2 takes 4 bites to kill now. Granted, you are left with only 5 hp after 3 bites, so spores/healspray/parasite will kill you, but still, taking 4 bites to kill a light marine that early in the game is really devastating to the skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 1 2004, 11:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 1 2004, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+Jan 30 2004, 08:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Jan 30 2004, 08:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nothing can be proven statistically. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It actually can be proven statistically.
Here it is:
A weapons upgrade first means you kill the skulk faster by 1 bullet, right? Why do you need this? One bullet is NOTHING in the long run of killing skulks, whereas one bite more to kill a marine is a ton.
On top of this, lets say you are attacked by a skulk. In the time it takes for a skulk to get out 3 bites over 2, you will DEAL MORE DAMAGE to the skulk because you live longer. The extra time you get before the 3rd bite lands is enough to land 3-5 more bullets (not sure exactly how much). Therefore armor is actually more powerful in terms of killing power, as you are able to dish out more damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fail. That is not statistics, and it doesn't <i>prove</i> anything. It's actually just what we've been saying all along, but a bit more overgeneralized.
Statistics is not a tool used to prove anything. It is used to support reasoning that is virtually impossible to actually prove. That does not mean it is not useful, but it still doesn't count as proof! No, I'm not talking about justice system "proof," but rather logical or mathematical kind of proof.
i didn't read any of the replies here, so i apologise if someone already said it but armor is also very important for OCs each OC shot deals like 20 damage? without decent armor marines get ripped to shreds :'/
we can play games of statistics to back up data here, but it would be very complex. We would have to create multiple situations, and evaluate each of the.
Situation one: assume that a skulk covering a certain distance, X is hit by a certain number of bullets, Y. The skulk would normally reach a marine in distance X, with Z HP.
EVALUATE: the effectiveness of the following with the following conditions The effectiveness of weapons 1? The effectiveness of armor 1?
Now: Vary X and Y (Z is a function of X and Y). Y variable is dependant on aim, but should also be a function of X since only a certain % of bullets will hit at any given distance, therefore a percentage modifery will be necessary. Run this simulation between the marine dying without the skulk getting hit, and until the skulk can no longer reach the marine (dies before he ever gets a chance to bite) by a considerable amount ie, 3-5 feet.
Situation two: Assume that a skulk has set up an ambush for the marine. Assume the skulk lands the first bite, and that the marine responds immidately after he is bitten (shooting the skulk). The skulk is hit with X bullets, and takes Y seconds to kill the marine. The skulk ends up with Z HP.
EVALUATE: the effectiveness of the following within the following conditions The effectiveness of weapons 1? The effectiveness of armor 1?
Now: Vary X and Y (both X and Y variables are dependant on "skill" so try to simulate realistic skill levels). Z is a function of X and Y. Vary X and Y from the marine killing the skulk to the skulk killing the marine, perferably highling extremes.
If someone someone has a lot of time on their hands, and can create some mathematical formulas that realstically model damage in combat, based on bullets, rate of fire, weapon, time, and distance, simulations can be run to statistically support arguments. But who's gonna do something that complex? =p.
So anyway, I finally get to my point, let's just stick to words and forget about statistics, shall we?
Variables needed: marine skill, map, alien skill, player's computers/internet connections, etc. In other words, there are way too many variables, so that's never going to happen. I'm just adding on to Starlude's point.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Can somebody give me the exactl absortion rates for armor? Like I know way back when level 0 armor abosrbed 30% damage and half that damage is taken away from armor. LEvel 3 absorbed 60%. How does it work now?
<!--QuoteBegin-Ajurian+Jan 24 2004, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ajurian @ Jan 24 2004, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its amazing how you assume players need the extra armor because they cant shoot. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I prefer having armor first for those sneaky skulks that get real close, that extra bite can make alot of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In public servers its a requirement, sadly.
However level 1 weapons means they wont get bitten at all if the skulk is dead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+Feb 2 2004, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Feb 2 2004, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 1 2004, 11:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 1 2004, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+Jan 30 2004, 08:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Jan 30 2004, 08:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nothing can be proven statistically. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It actually can be proven statistically.
Here it is:
A weapons upgrade first means you kill the skulk faster by 1 bullet, right? Why do you need this? One bullet is NOTHING in the long run of killing skulks, whereas one bite more to kill a marine is a ton.
On top of this, lets say you are attacked by a skulk. In the time it takes for a skulk to get out 3 bites over 2, you will DEAL MORE DAMAGE to the skulk because you live longer. The extra time you get before the 3rd bite lands is enough to land 3-5 more bullets (not sure exactly how much). Therefore armor is actually more powerful in terms of killing power, as you are able to dish out more damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fail. That is not statistics, and it doesn't <i>prove</i> anything. It's actually just what we've been saying all along, but a bit more overgeneralized.
Statistics is not a tool used to prove anything. It is used to support reasoning that is virtually impossible to actually prove. That does not mean it is not useful, but it still doesn't count as proof! No, I'm not talking about justice system "proof," but rather logical or mathematical kind of proof. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You are right, that wasn't a statistic, it was a parameter and should be taken as the bible, because the numbers work out so that both armor gives more time to fire your bullets which means more damage done than if you were to go with weapons, and weapons will not kill them fast enough for you to kill a skulk before he kills you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Jan 30 2004, 08:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Jan 30 2004, 08:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yep armor drains more hp now, at the cost of more armor damage per bite or whatever. I preferred the old armor system tbh. This one is so treacherous.
and on-topic: armor1 is better than weapon1, it can be PROVEN statistically. end of <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *grin*
To sum up that other thread: get both armor 1 and weapons 1! The first levels of both are cheap, fast to research, and most importantly of all permanant. The time between armor 1 and weapons 1 completions (or vice versa) is about a whole minute.
As long as you don't wait longer than weapons 1 to get armor 1 (because armor 1 is incredible given its cost) you'll be just fine.
In terms of NS:C - I always go weapons 1 -> shotgun with my first two upgrades, because no level of armor is going to save you if you can't kill anything! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It actually can be proven statistically.
Here it is:
A weapons upgrade first means you kill the skulk faster by 1 bullet, right? Why do you need this? One bullet is NOTHING in the long run of killing skulks, whereas one bite more to kill a marine is a ton.
On top of this, lets say you are attacked by a skulk. In the time it takes for a skulk to get out 3 bites over 2, you will DEAL MORE DAMAGE to the skulk because you live longer. The extra time you get before the 3rd bite lands is enough to land 3-5 more bullets (not sure exactly how much). Therefore armor is actually more powerful in terms of killing power, as you are able to dish out more damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> For once I actually agree with Forlorn. The question is, how many bullets can you fire in between regular skulk bites, its like more than 1. So not only can you save yourself that extra bite in CQB, you can fire out more bullets because you can take more damage, whereas with weapons one, you better kill that skulk before he gets close, otherwise you are screwed.
Its not just staying or having the comm med you better, its the ability to unload the ammount of bullets you need to neutralize the skulk. Armor one does that better than weapons one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The question is, how many bullets can you fire in between regular skulk bites, its like more than 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That isn't the full question. Not all of those bullets will hit.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 3 2004, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 3 2004, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Ajurian+Jan 24 2004, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ajurian @ Jan 24 2004, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its amazing how you assume players need the extra armor because they cant shoot. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I prefer having armor first for those sneaky skulks that get real close, that extra bite can make alot of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In public servers its a requirement, sadly.
However level 1 weapons means they wont get bitten at all if the skulk is dead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So what if there are multiple skulks? 1 less bullet won't kill them any quicker dude <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 3 2004, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 3 2004, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Ajurian+Jan 24 2004, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ajurian @ Jan 24 2004, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its amazing how you assume players need the extra armor because they cant shoot. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I prefer having armor first for those sneaky skulks that get real close, that extra bite can make alot of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In public servers its a requirement, sadly.
However level 1 weapons means they wont get bitten at all if the skulk is dead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In scrims and competitive play, it's a requirement, sadly. I don't know what dreamworld you play in, but even crappy skulks can get close enough to bite if 2 or 3 of them rush at once. The fact is that you get bit even if you're aimbotting. There's no argument for weapons 1 first except in combat, as a prereq for shotgun. Don't even kid yourself, if you get weapons 1 first as a commander, you're inexperienced.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Feb 4 2004, 07:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Feb 4 2004, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The question is, how many bullets can you fire in between regular skulk bites, its like more than 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That isn't the full question. Not all of those bullets will hit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course weapons 1 won't magically make those bullets hit anyway, so this argument is irrelevant.
<!--QuoteBegin-BOBDOLOL+Feb 4 2004, 09:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BOBDOLOL @ Feb 4 2004, 09:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 3 2004, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 3 2004, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Ajurian+Jan 24 2004, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ajurian @ Jan 24 2004, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its amazing how you assume players need the extra armor because they cant shoot. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I prefer having armor first for those sneaky skulks that get real close, that extra bite can make alot of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In public servers its a requirement, sadly.
However level 1 weapons means they wont get bitten at all if the skulk is dead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So what if there are multiple skulks? 1 less bullet won't kill them any quicker dude <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's flawed too. It's one bullet per uncarapaced skulk. I think it's a slightly bigger savings when they have carapace (like a whole two bullets per skulk). If you're fighting 3 skulks at once, you're saving at least 3 bullets. The kill-time will be shortened by 3 times as much, assuming you survive.
Meep, I seriously doubt you are qualified to say that. It's definately not true of a bunch of skulks rushing you head on: it just means they're harder to miss, and they'll take serious losses. What usually works out best for the marines is to stand somewhere secure and use a teammate as bait, luring the skulks into a disadvantaged position. Much of the rest of real marine skill lies in avoiding the kharaa's traps, which is quite possible.
Look, everyone, this is simple. If you can kill a skulk without being hit anyway, weapons upgrades will help you kill the skulk without getting hit at all more often. If you are going to get hit, armor upgrades make it more likely you'll survive. Which is more valuable depends on your skill level, the kharaa's skill level, and what chamber the kharaa chose first. Most of the time, armor 1 wins out, but I will continue to prefer weapons unless the kharaa have sensories.
Even then, you don't have to choose! Get all the arms labs upgrades asap. They are easily worth every res point you put into them, and cannot be wasted by a foolish rambo running off with your heavy firepower to die.
Although your theory is bunk, there's no need to base this on theory when we can base it on experience. Now I think I'm a good shooter, and forlorn is, and many other members of the vet program are. Along with myself, they will tell you that armor 1 is a much more important upgrade for them out in the field. Lets examine why.
Number one, the fact is that you're almost never a marine standing in a long hallway, judging how many bullets you can get off before the skulk connects. Most of the time, against decent skulks, you either find yourself being rushed by a group or you are ambushed while you're walking to a destination. This is just a fact. When I'm rushed I usually feel capible enough to take out one, maybe two skulks before they get to me, unless they're absolutely horrid, then i can take out maybe 3 or 4. After that though, I have to take the time to reload my weapons, and that's usually when they get to me. It takes about three bites to reload the lmg. Your hope is, obviously, that all of their bites don't connect, but the first one probably will (usually because that's the one where they don't have those teeth obscuring 75% of their screen).
Secondary to that additional time in the heat of battle is the fact that if you're bit once, and manage to kill all opponents, you will still have armor left that's worth a damn, if you have armor 1. That means that medding you isn't an expensive waste of time. With two meds and armor 1 you could extend the life of a marine to 4 or 5 bites depending on when you drop the meds.
A third thing to consider is the other alien weapons, mostly healspray, lerk gas, and OC spikes. The way marine armor works is it takes half the damage, reduces that damage by half, and then applies what's left to armor. The rest goes to health. OC spikes do 20 damage each. With armor 0 you can barely run past one, and still survive. With armor 1 you can stand and take one out while taking all the damage.
Finally, here's another way to think about it: A skulk bite takes about 1 second to fire; the lmg fires 10 bullets a second. That means that armor 1, buying you one more bite minimum, gives you an extra second of life. Damage 1 buys you .1 second. That's ten times better for the same price.
I think though, that an excellent point has been bought up, and that this age old arugement need not be persued much futher. Armor 1 and Weapons 1 both take an extremely SHORT amount of time to research. So long as both as researched ASAP, there is really no need for this debate. The 20 (or is it 30?) seconds it takes to research inbetween each one generally won't make that HUGE of a difference in the field.
Comments
...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It actually can be proven statistically.
Here it is:
A weapons upgrade first means you kill the skulk faster by 1 bullet, right? Why do you need this? One bullet is NOTHING in the long run of killing skulks, whereas one bite more to kill a marine is a ton.
On top of this, lets say you are attacked by a skulk. In the time it takes for a skulk to get out 3 bites over 2, you will DEAL MORE DAMAGE to the skulk because you live longer. The extra time you get before the 3rd bite lands is enough to land 3-5 more bullets (not sure exactly how much). Therefore armor is actually more powerful in terms of killing power, as you are able to dish out more damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fail. That is not statistics, and it doesn't <i>prove</i> anything. It's actually just what we've been saying all along, but a bit more overgeneralized.
Statistics is not a tool used to prove anything. It is used to support reasoning that is virtually impossible to actually prove. That does not mean it is not useful, but it still doesn't count as proof! No, I'm not talking about justice system "proof," but rather logical or mathematical kind of proof.
but armor is also very important for OCs
each OC shot deals like 20 damage? without decent armor marines get ripped to shreds :'/
we can play games of statistics to back up data here, but it would be very complex. We would have to create multiple situations, and evaluate each of the.
Situation one:
assume that a skulk covering a certain distance, X is hit by a certain number of bullets, Y. The skulk would normally reach a marine in distance X, with Z HP.
EVALUATE: the effectiveness of the following with the following conditions
The effectiveness of weapons 1?
The effectiveness of armor 1?
Now: Vary X and Y (Z is a function of X and Y). Y variable is dependant on aim, but should also be a function of X since only a certain % of bullets will hit at any given distance, therefore a percentage modifery will be necessary. Run this simulation between the marine dying without the skulk getting hit, and until the skulk can no longer reach the marine (dies before he ever gets a chance to bite) by a considerable amount ie, 3-5 feet.
Situation two:
Assume that a skulk has set up an ambush for the marine. Assume the skulk lands the first bite, and that the marine responds immidately after he is bitten (shooting the skulk). The skulk is hit with X bullets, and takes Y seconds to kill the marine. The skulk ends up with Z HP.
EVALUATE: the effectiveness of the following within the following conditions
The effectiveness of weapons 1?
The effectiveness of armor 1?
Now: Vary X and Y (both X and Y variables are dependant on "skill" so try to simulate realistic skill levels). Z is a function of X and Y. Vary X and Y from the marine killing the skulk to the skulk killing the marine, perferably highling extremes.
If someone someone has a lot of time on their hands, and can create some mathematical formulas that realstically model damage in combat, based on bullets, rate of fire, weapon, time, and distance, simulations can be run to statistically support arguments. But who's gonna do something that complex? =p.
So anyway, I finally get to my point, let's just stick to words and forget about statistics, shall we?
Map with lots of corners and hiding spots armour first.
There isn't one upgrade that's best for all situations, you just have to think.
I prefer having armor first for those sneaky skulks that get real close, that extra bite can make alot of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In public servers its a requirement, sadly.
However level 1 weapons means they wont get bitten at all if the skulk is dead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It actually can be proven statistically.
Here it is:
A weapons upgrade first means you kill the skulk faster by 1 bullet, right? Why do you need this? One bullet is NOTHING in the long run of killing skulks, whereas one bite more to kill a marine is a ton.
On top of this, lets say you are attacked by a skulk. In the time it takes for a skulk to get out 3 bites over 2, you will DEAL MORE DAMAGE to the skulk because you live longer. The extra time you get before the 3rd bite lands is enough to land 3-5 more bullets (not sure exactly how much). Therefore armor is actually more powerful in terms of killing power, as you are able to dish out more damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fail. That is not statistics, and it doesn't <i>prove</i> anything. It's actually just what we've been saying all along, but a bit more overgeneralized.
Statistics is not a tool used to prove anything. It is used to support reasoning that is virtually impossible to actually prove. That does not mean it is not useful, but it still doesn't count as proof! No, I'm not talking about justice system "proof," but rather logical or mathematical kind of proof. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right, that wasn't a statistic, it was a parameter and should be taken as the bible, because the numbers work out so that both armor gives more time to fire your bullets which means more damage done than if you were to go with weapons, and weapons will not kill them fast enough for you to kill a skulk before he kills you.
and on-topic: armor1 is better than weapon1, it can be PROVEN statistically. end of <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*grin*
To sum up that other thread: get both armor 1 and weapons 1! The first levels of both are cheap, fast to research, and most importantly of all permanant. The time between armor 1 and weapons 1 completions (or vice versa) is about a whole minute.
As long as you don't wait longer than weapons 1 to get armor 1 (because armor 1 is incredible given its cost) you'll be just fine.
In terms of NS:C - I always go weapons 1 -> shotgun with my first two upgrades, because no level of armor is going to save you if you can't kill anything! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It actually can be proven statistically.
Here it is:
A weapons upgrade first means you kill the skulk faster by 1 bullet, right? Why do you need this? One bullet is NOTHING in the long run of killing skulks, whereas one bite more to kill a marine is a ton.
On top of this, lets say you are attacked by a skulk. In the time it takes for a skulk to get out 3 bites over 2, you will DEAL MORE DAMAGE to the skulk because you live longer. The extra time you get before the 3rd bite lands is enough to land 3-5 more bullets (not sure exactly how much). Therefore armor is actually more powerful in terms of killing power, as you are able to dish out more damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
For once I actually agree with Forlorn. The question is, how many bullets can you fire in between regular skulk bites, its like more than 1. So not only can you save yourself that extra bite in CQB, you can fire out more bullets because you can take more damage, whereas with weapons one, you better kill that skulk before he gets close, otherwise you are screwed.
Its not just staying or having the comm med you better, its the ability to unload the ammount of bullets you need to neutralize the skulk. Armor one does that better than weapons one.
That isn't the full question. Not all of those bullets will hit.
I prefer having armor first for those sneaky skulks that get real close, that extra bite can make alot of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In public servers its a requirement, sadly.
However level 1 weapons means they wont get bitten at all if the skulk is dead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what if there are multiple skulks? 1 less bullet won't kill them any quicker dude <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I prefer having armor first for those sneaky skulks that get real close, that extra bite can make alot of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In public servers its a requirement, sadly.
However level 1 weapons means they wont get bitten at all if the skulk is dead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In scrims and competitive play, it's a requirement, sadly. I don't know what dreamworld you play in, but even crappy skulks can get close enough to bite if 2 or 3 of them rush at once. The fact is that you get bit even if you're aimbotting. There's no argument for weapons 1 first except in combat, as a prereq for shotgun. Don't even kid yourself, if you get weapons 1 first as a commander, you're inexperienced.
That isn't the full question. Not all of those bullets will hit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course weapons 1 won't magically make those bullets hit anyway, so this argument is irrelevant.
I prefer having armor first for those sneaky skulks that get real close, that extra bite can make alot of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In public servers its a requirement, sadly.
However level 1 weapons means they wont get bitten at all if the skulk is dead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what if there are multiple skulks? 1 less bullet won't kill them any quicker dude <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's flawed too. It's one bullet per uncarapaced skulk. I think it's a slightly bigger savings when they have carapace (like a whole two bullets per skulk). If you're fighting 3 skulks at once, you're saving at least 3 bullets. The kill-time will be shortened by 3 times as much, assuming you survive.
Meep, I seriously doubt you are qualified to say that. It's definately not true of a bunch of skulks rushing you head on: it just means they're harder to miss, and they'll take serious losses. What usually works out best for the marines is to stand somewhere secure and use a teammate as bait, luring the skulks into a disadvantaged position. Much of the rest of real marine skill lies in avoiding the kharaa's traps, which is quite possible.
Look, everyone, this is simple. If you can kill a skulk without being hit anyway, weapons upgrades will help you kill the skulk without getting hit at all more often. If you are going to get hit, armor upgrades make it more likely you'll survive. Which is more valuable depends on your skill level, the kharaa's skill level, and what chamber the kharaa chose first. Most of the time, armor 1 wins out, but I will continue to prefer weapons unless the kharaa have sensories.
Even then, you don't have to choose! Get all the arms labs upgrades asap. They are easily worth every res point you put into them, and cannot be wasted by a foolish rambo running off with your heavy firepower to die.
Number one, the fact is that you're almost never a marine standing in a long hallway, judging how many bullets you can get off before the skulk connects. Most of the time, against decent skulks, you either find yourself being rushed by a group or you are ambushed while you're walking to a destination. This is just a fact. When I'm rushed I usually feel capible enough to take out one, maybe two skulks before they get to me, unless they're absolutely horrid, then i can take out maybe 3 or 4. After that though, I have to take the time to reload my weapons, and that's usually when they get to me. It takes about three bites to reload the lmg. Your hope is, obviously, that all of their bites don't connect, but the first one probably will (usually because that's the one where they don't have those teeth obscuring 75% of their screen).
Secondary to that additional time in the heat of battle is the fact that if you're bit once, and manage to kill all opponents, you will still have armor left that's worth a damn, if you have armor 1. That means that medding you isn't an expensive waste of time. With two meds and armor 1 you could extend the life of a marine to 4 or 5 bites depending on when you drop the meds.
A third thing to consider is the other alien weapons, mostly healspray, lerk gas, and OC spikes. The way marine armor works is it takes half the damage, reduces that damage by half, and then applies what's left to armor. The rest goes to health. OC spikes do 20 damage each. With armor 0 you can barely run past one, and still survive. With armor 1 you can stand and take one out while taking all the damage.
Finally, here's another way to think about it: A skulk bite takes about 1 second to fire; the lmg fires 10 bullets a second. That means that armor 1, buying you one more bite minimum, gives you an extra second of life. Damage 1 buys you .1 second. That's ten times better for the same price.