Modern Relationships
taboofires
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">this topic is rated mature</div> First off, by mature I mean ability to act like an adult, not in the sense of TV-MA. So, let's keep it clean (or this could get locked quickly)! Also, for the sake of keeping the thread somewhat on topic, please keep any religious aspects to factual discussion rather than heated, dogmatic arguments. I know, I ask alot.
On to the real topic: As I'm sure most of you have noticed, a modern relationship can be ridiculously complex. There are certain elements that you won't just stumble upon accidentally, but rather have to actually put some though into. Even worse, some media forms actually make the problem worse, by distorting a person's sense of what a relationship should be (askmen.com, porn, etc.). So, let's address some of them in intelligent discussion, in hopes that someone somewhere will learn something. I'll start us off.
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Non-physical attractiveness and realistic expectations: I'm about to talk about the media and porn, but I'm being quite serious.
1) Our "ideal" image of a man or woman is nowhere close to the truth. Actually, the images we see everyday aren't even real. A combination of hours putting on makeup (with the help of pros), cosmetic surgery, spending most of their free time at a gym, and some creative photo editing completely removes any traces of flaws in a model. So, how do they compare to your boyfriend or girlfriend? They don't, and you can't realistically expect them to. Instead, they are real people with flaws, who spend their time doing more useful things than pursuit of physical godliness. Sure, the temptation exists to hold up your magazine to your partner or yourself and pick out all your insignificant flaws, but that is not a useful adventure. If anything, flaws just make us human, and our humanity is what relationships are based on.
2) "Real" attractiveness: As alluring as a perfect body may be, there are other aspects of people that are much more important. Health is sexy, which is the basis for our pursuit of physical perfection. That's something we're programmed for: we naturally seek out a mate that has the potential to support us and our children, and an invalid can't provide that support. There's another side to it too: sickness and disease can be incredibly disgusting, and doesn't exactly do good things for our libidos. Once your reach a state of healthiness, that's plenty good enough, and it's time to start concentrating on more important aspects of your personality.
How about intelligence? Or a good sense of humor? Inner strength? Relationships with a partner that don't fill our real needs for fulfillment are hollow, and make about as much sense as having one with an image (because that's all you really have left).
3) What men and women really want from relationships: In the same way that violence in the media gives the incompetent violent ideas, porn gives you bad ideas about what the opposite sex desires in a relationship. Comfort, security, real intimacy, and enjoying the other person's company when your clothes are still on are vital for a successful relationship.
On the actual lovemaking: If you remember that there are (generally) two people involved, and endeavor to make it enjoyable for both, you are like to be treated well in return and are likely to have more than one shot at it. To make it unpleasant for your partner makes it <i>work</i> on their part, and that is going nowhere fast. Selfish partners quickly become lonely.
Also, while sex with a stranger may fulfill physical needs, a loving partner has much more to offer.
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"Settling down": Excluding people who are hermits or do not wish to have a relationship longer than a month, at some time the thought will occur to you that you could settle down with your current partner. It pretty much boils down to 1) will I be happy with this person and able to stay in a relationship for the rest of my natural life? 2) Is there a better partner out there for me somewhere.
The second question is the problem here: it's not useful thinking. Even assuming that there is someone out there who you could form a better relationship with, it might not be worth the trouble and potential failure of finding that person. At minimum, it would probably mean years of more dating, and getting to know lots of people, and a bunch more failed relationships. Quite frankly, it's not worth the trouble if the person you're currently with is someone you could stay with indefinitely. Sure, looking at the situation from an idyllic point of view, you might not have found what you consider to be your "soul mate," but a perfect relationship isn't realistically attainable. Instead, I'd suggest just settling for a really good, lasting relationship, and you can use all that time you might spend dating on something productive.
In fact, the action of "settling down" goes a long way towards creating an ideal relationship over time. By resolving yourselves to self-improvement, rather than pursuit of others, you can forge something that will last out of a relationship that is pretty good to start with. Of course, you still need something to work off of, which means doing your best to become a good person to start with, and having a solid partnership. Lesson: find someone who is good for you and you love, and let the rest follow.
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Something that I'd like to cover, but honestly don't know enough about from experience: moving in together, and ways to make it minimally painful.
Also, I'm pretty sure that people simply asking questions will be quite useful, because otherwise we might not have any idea what to talk about next.
On to the real topic: As I'm sure most of you have noticed, a modern relationship can be ridiculously complex. There are certain elements that you won't just stumble upon accidentally, but rather have to actually put some though into. Even worse, some media forms actually make the problem worse, by distorting a person's sense of what a relationship should be (askmen.com, porn, etc.). So, let's address some of them in intelligent discussion, in hopes that someone somewhere will learn something. I'll start us off.
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Non-physical attractiveness and realistic expectations: I'm about to talk about the media and porn, but I'm being quite serious.
1) Our "ideal" image of a man or woman is nowhere close to the truth. Actually, the images we see everyday aren't even real. A combination of hours putting on makeup (with the help of pros), cosmetic surgery, spending most of their free time at a gym, and some creative photo editing completely removes any traces of flaws in a model. So, how do they compare to your boyfriend or girlfriend? They don't, and you can't realistically expect them to. Instead, they are real people with flaws, who spend their time doing more useful things than pursuit of physical godliness. Sure, the temptation exists to hold up your magazine to your partner or yourself and pick out all your insignificant flaws, but that is not a useful adventure. If anything, flaws just make us human, and our humanity is what relationships are based on.
2) "Real" attractiveness: As alluring as a perfect body may be, there are other aspects of people that are much more important. Health is sexy, which is the basis for our pursuit of physical perfection. That's something we're programmed for: we naturally seek out a mate that has the potential to support us and our children, and an invalid can't provide that support. There's another side to it too: sickness and disease can be incredibly disgusting, and doesn't exactly do good things for our libidos. Once your reach a state of healthiness, that's plenty good enough, and it's time to start concentrating on more important aspects of your personality.
How about intelligence? Or a good sense of humor? Inner strength? Relationships with a partner that don't fill our real needs for fulfillment are hollow, and make about as much sense as having one with an image (because that's all you really have left).
3) What men and women really want from relationships: In the same way that violence in the media gives the incompetent violent ideas, porn gives you bad ideas about what the opposite sex desires in a relationship. Comfort, security, real intimacy, and enjoying the other person's company when your clothes are still on are vital for a successful relationship.
On the actual lovemaking: If you remember that there are (generally) two people involved, and endeavor to make it enjoyable for both, you are like to be treated well in return and are likely to have more than one shot at it. To make it unpleasant for your partner makes it <i>work</i> on their part, and that is going nowhere fast. Selfish partners quickly become lonely.
Also, while sex with a stranger may fulfill physical needs, a loving partner has much more to offer.
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"Settling down": Excluding people who are hermits or do not wish to have a relationship longer than a month, at some time the thought will occur to you that you could settle down with your current partner. It pretty much boils down to 1) will I be happy with this person and able to stay in a relationship for the rest of my natural life? 2) Is there a better partner out there for me somewhere.
The second question is the problem here: it's not useful thinking. Even assuming that there is someone out there who you could form a better relationship with, it might not be worth the trouble and potential failure of finding that person. At minimum, it would probably mean years of more dating, and getting to know lots of people, and a bunch more failed relationships. Quite frankly, it's not worth the trouble if the person you're currently with is someone you could stay with indefinitely. Sure, looking at the situation from an idyllic point of view, you might not have found what you consider to be your "soul mate," but a perfect relationship isn't realistically attainable. Instead, I'd suggest just settling for a really good, lasting relationship, and you can use all that time you might spend dating on something productive.
In fact, the action of "settling down" goes a long way towards creating an ideal relationship over time. By resolving yourselves to self-improvement, rather than pursuit of others, you can forge something that will last out of a relationship that is pretty good to start with. Of course, you still need something to work off of, which means doing your best to become a good person to start with, and having a solid partnership. Lesson: find someone who is good for you and you love, and let the rest follow.
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Something that I'd like to cover, but honestly don't know enough about from experience: moving in together, and ways to make it minimally painful.
Also, I'm pretty sure that people simply asking questions will be quite useful, because otherwise we might not have any idea what to talk about next.
Comments
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I don't really think of differances between my fiancee and a supermodel as "flaws". Rather, I think that she is a far more attractive person. Let me explain that a little. I look at a supermodel, and I see a face and a body. But who's behind the face? What is that women like, what are her thoughts and emotions? I don't know, and I can't know from a picture. Beauty is based on far more than just physical apperances. Personality and the person themselves are a big factor in determining if a person has beauty. I've met girls who were drop dead gorgeous, but they were also total female dogs. I've also met girls who don't quite conform to Western standards of beauty, but they were the nicest people to be around. The second catagory wins out from my perspective; if you truely love a person, their physical apperance will mean little to nothing. They will always look stunningly beautiful to you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about intelligence? Or a good sense of humor? Inner strength? Relationships with a partner that don't fill our real needs for fulfillment are hollow, and make about as much sense as having one with an image (because that's all you really have left).
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Exactly. "One-night-stands" never ever held any appeal for me; why bother having sex with someone if you're not emotionally attached to the person? There's no point, it's just shallow and hollow pleasure. You get far, far more out of a relationship with emotional committment, and sex is a way of affirming that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the actual lovemaking: If you remember that there are (generally) two people involved, and endeavor to make it enjoyable for both, you are like to be treated well in return and are likely to have more than one shot at it. To make it unpleasant for your partner makes it work on their part, and that is going nowhere fast. Selfish partners quickly become lonely.
Also, while sex with a stranger may fulfill physical needs, a loving partner has much more to offer.
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Treating your parnter well in sex is a great way of showing that you really care. Sex makes couples feel so close, emotionally and physically, and as such you should do all you can to make it as enjoyable and sensual as possible. Talk to your parnter about love-making; find out what they like and don't like. Keeping it all under the covers as it were and treating sex like some taboo subject is a fast track to a relationship falling apart; you have to be completely honest and open with your partner, and that means talking about things like sex. Sometimes one person might not feel like sex but the other might, in which case masterbation, either by one's self or performed by your parnter is a perfectly acceptable alternative. Couples that are open and willing to accept the needs of others often are the happiest. Remember too that there are a lot of things you can do sexually that arn't sex, and a couple can have a lot of fun, pleasure and bonding by trying these things out (such as fellatio, sensual massage, or even nude swimming).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Settling down": Excluding people who are hermits or do not wish to have a relationship longer than a month, at some time the thought will occur to you that you could settle down with your current partner. It pretty much boils down to 1) will I be happy with this person and able to stay in a relationship for the rest of my natural life? 2) Is there a better partner out there for me somewhere.
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In answer to 1), well the only real way is experimentation. You can however ask yourself the question and try to get an honest response, or talk to your parnter as well. If you want the relationship to go on for a very long time, but the other doesn't, then sadly that relationship will fail. Forcing it to go on will just hurt both parties. In answer to 2) though, if you do love someone, that question never comes up. The person you are with is the best partner in the world.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The second question is the problem here: it's not useful thinking. Even assuming that there is someone out there who you could form a better relationship with, it might not be worth the trouble and potential failure of finding that person. At minimum, it would probably mean years of more dating, and getting to know lots of people, and a bunch more failed relationships. Quite frankly, it's not worth the trouble if the person you're currently with is someone you could stay with indefinitely. Sure, looking at the situation from an idyllic point of view, you might not have found what you consider to be your "soul mate," but a perfect relationship isn't realistically attainable. Instead, I'd suggest just settling for a really good, lasting relationship, and you can use all that time you might spend dating on something productive.
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The goal is not so much to find that perfect person, as the chances of this happening are slim. However, you'll have no chance whatsoever in finding someone if you don't try (as we say in Australia, you gotta be in it to win it). Now you may never find that perfect partner, but odds are that if you're a loving, kind person who puts a lot into a relationship, you're going to find a partner who reciprocates that. The fact that there are hundreds of millions of happily married people around the world is testament to that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Something that I'd like to cover, but honestly don't know enough about from experience: moving in together, and ways to make it minimally painful.
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Talk it over first. Can't stress this enough. Before formally moving in, stay over for a few days or a week or so at the other person's place. If you drive one another crazy, it's a bad idea to move in with one another. If you've never lived with someone else before, make sure that you consider their needs and do your share of the work. It's really only best to do this if you've been with the person for quite some time; 9 - 12 months for instance. Even if you do move in together though, respect one another's independance and understand that you are both seperate people who need their own space. Seperate areas, like a study, allow for a individual to distance themselves a little from their partner and have some time alone, which everyone needs from time to time.
"Looks come first, and then they come last."
i've asked #1, and #2 to myself on more than one occasion.
answers area always #1 - yup.. #2... not unless i change my whole life and join a terrorist group.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Our "ideal" image of a man or woman is nowhere close to the truth. Actually, the images we see everyday aren't even real. A combination of hours putting on makeup (with the help of pros), cosmetic surgery, spending most of their free time at a gym, and some creative photo editing completely removes any traces of flaws in a model. So, how do they compare to your boyfriend or girlfriend? They don't, and you can't realistically expect them to. Instead, they are real people with flaws, who spend their time doing more useful things than pursuit of physical godliness. Sure, the temptation exists to hold up your magazine to your partner or yourself and pick out all your insignificant flaws, but that is not a useful adventure. If anything, flaws just make us human, and our humanity is what relationships are based on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ideal isn't really the word we would like to use in this situation... i'de say "model" well, because that's what we look at and say "good form" and such, but it's not like "hey, wanna go out sometime?"...
my G/F has a AA bra... she's small... but i love her more because of it... sure she isn't a model, has a "ski-slope" nose... but all things i love her more for.
most people keep thinking that we love girls because they have features that these "models" share... but for me, it's the opposite. i love her because she isn't "perfect"...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) "Real" attractiveness: As alluring as a perfect body may be, there are other aspects of people that are much more important.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The one thing i love the most about my G/F is that she won't let me kiss her.. i mean, some of you won't get the point, but for 3 years, i haven't been kissing my G/F.... we have been doing things that make us grow closer. her as a person, is more important than anything she could do with her body.
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Don't get me wrong; emotional attachment and development is very important. And I find that physical contact helps affirm those connections and strengthens them. A couple making love, kissing, or just holding one another makes you feel so close to the other person that it's one of the best ways of saying "I love you. I want to hold you, be close to you and make you feel good". Do you think the same way?
All I'm saying here is that kissing and other physical actions can help two people grow closer.
Personally, I don't think restraint is a useful exercise. It causes tensions that are very artificial, and a budding relationship can't really handle much stress like that. It is useful to just release slowly, rather than jumping into sex, but not beyond the point where you're going slow enough to enjoy getting there.
Plastic faces not, gg supermodels. (lol) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That said, asking for a person to make life completely fulfilling for me would be a mistake, just as would be me attempting to be a perfect complement for everyone else.
In my limited life experience, most dating relationships I have seen have been those that are formed by people looking for fulfillment, for love and affection. Though the relationship certainly provides that, if both people constantly seek to take from one another the things that they need to get through the day, then both people will be left dry and exhausted, attempting to excise from the other fulfillment.
Instead, relationships need to be those that focus on self-sacrifice, doing what can be done to help the other person and show the other person love. With such mutual commitment, nobody ever feels left out or dry because each person has set aside their own needs to meet those of their partner. That's the formula for a perfect relationship, people completely denying themselves for each other.
Unfortunately, people aren't perfect, people will screw up, and when that happens, people end up feeling cheated because they've given all they have to their partner, and yet feel unsatisfied by the return. People need something else to 'fill them up' so to speak, so that they have more to give, and need not rely on their circumstances to bring them happiness. I'm sure that most of you can see where I'm going with this, being one of the resident 'Christian yuppies.' Every one of the great, loving, healthy marriages I've seen draw off of God for their corner stone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Something that I'd like to cover, but honestly don't know enough about from experience: moving in together, and ways to make it minimally painful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a study conducted by John Hopkins University on co-habitation, found <a href='http://www.marriageproject.org/fs0064.html' target='_blank'>here,</a> marriages which formed after cohabitation outside of marriage would most likely end in divorce, or result in one of the people adopting a secondary sex partner. In fact, the divorce rate in couples living apart before marriage was 1/2 that of those who cohabited.
Draw conclusions from that as you will.
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So it must just be a huge co-incidence that my two non-Christian parents have been together for 25 years, or that myself and my atheist fiancee have a fantastic relationship. Did it ever occur to you that when two people love each other imperfections don't matter, and that indeed they never even get noticed?
If two people need god or a spiritual force in their lives to stay together, they don't love each other. Simple, harsh perhaps, but true. You should be with someone because you love them and the most important thing in the world to you is the other person. The other person and the happiness you have from being with them "fills you up".
And living together before marriage makes people break up? Well <a href='http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd111999g.html' target='_blank'>religion</a> certainly keeps folks together doesn't it! Explain to me the logic behind not living with someone before you get married. Not everyone is compatible with one another, and living together is a great way to establish whether or not the two people in a relationship actually can spend the rest of their lives together. Same with having sex before marriage; a poor sex life can poison relationships, and it's much better to find out before marriage that you might have a bad sexual partner than to marry the person and be stuck.
In a study conducted by John Hopkins University on co-habitation, found <a href='http://www.marriageproject.org/fs0064.html' target='_blank'>here,</a> marriages which formed after cohabitation outside of marriage would most likely end in divorce, or result in one of the people adopting a secondary sex partner. In fact, the divorce rate in couples living apart before marriage was 1/2 that of those who cohabited. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As interesting as that is, it might not be very useful at all. Sort of the same as how our high divorce rates don't really mean that marriage is a failed institution, but rather that we're not very good at it. If anything, I would recommend living with someone for a year or two between engagement and marriage: if you can't stand them then, you're going to have a rough rest of your life. Even better: if you aren't good at living with someone, fix it.
Which brings us to: the point of the question is more long along this line: to those of you who have had successful live-in partnerships, what helped it work?
Seriously, Christianity out of all places in the world, develops the slowest in North America, and you know why? Because many Americans are more versed in education and better off in luxuries than compared to people in Africa...Not saying they're not happy or anything, I just think the simple minded (I mean it in a good way) are apt to desire God. The link you posted explains the high number of divorces in the southern states, but it doesn't explain anything about why those people divorced. Most people I know who are Christians, or claim they are, or just cling on to the fundamentals of the moral constructs which Christianity elaborates, are prone to relationship breakups. What legion said merely points out that a so and so amount of people who marry cling on to the strong belief that divorce is not only mentally/financially damaging, but also damaging to the spirit and soul. I think that strong Christian couples are prone to better and longer lasting marriages, because they have a "double conscious", one which is God. But of course, everyone is prone to breakups, so I guess no one is right in this arguement (like always in the discussion forums).
As a teenager, I find myself attracted to pretty girls. It is the pretty girl you see in your class at school that constantly invades your dreams and mesmerizes you. I find that it isn't only the outward beauty that attracts me, but also the inside beauty. There are girls who are both, and they are the ones who are pretty both ways-the girls which I think about and are out of my league (reality sucks eh?). Anways, I am no expert at relationships, and all I can say is that pretty people tend to go with pretty people and the not so pretty people tend to go with the not so pretty people. I also find that personality is more important, because I wouldn't want to hang around a nasty woman.
The media is extremely influential to today's society. Look everywhere on the television and all you see are beautiful people-the very image of youthful beauty which strikes hard at people today. We can't all be like them, but a lot of people try to be, even though they're not born to be.
I also think that judging is a killer these days. Why do we judge people to standards which arn't true? Why do we compare them to ourselves? If we can get rid of judgement, then we can, obviously, co-exist as humans.
Maybe, just maybe, we are just naturaly inclined to want to mate with pretty people...just maybe...WELL DUH..lol..
I look at my parents, and one of the strongest things keeping them together is respect.
-peace
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What Legion said was that for a marriage to work you need god. I found that incredibly offensive and utterly unbased upon any factual evidence. Strangly enough my friends that are religious are more prone to break-ups than my non-religious friends, and my parents and extended family, plus their numerous friends, all have fantastic marriages with no trace of god or religion.
Like I said, if you're basing the foundations of your relationship around religion, you dont love the other person. You're just using god as a glue to hold both of you together. People who truely do love one another don't need god, all they need is each other.
Ok... So you said that hugging/kissing/sexing can bring a couple closer together, yes? Here's another thing that two couples can do together. Worship God. I don't understand why any religious couple would be more "prone to divorces." Why would they be? Most religious types are conservative, thus they think that marriage is good and divorcing is taboo and should be avoided. Not to mention they have a god-figure that they would have to keep happy, right?
In response to that "Bible Belt South" thing. One, it's in the south. Those people have always been a bit...weird. I.E. Fundamentalism, lower literacy rate (crappier schooling), racism, humidity, etc. Two, like the article said there is "a tendency for couples to marry at a younger age than in many other states. " Maybe that skewed the showings a little? Three, I can't think of a three...sorry.
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So it must just be a huge co-incidence that my two non-Christian parents have been together for 25 years, or that myself and my atheist fiancee have a fantastic relationship. Did it ever occur to you that when two people love each other imperfections don't matter, and that indeed they never even get noticed?
If two people need god or a spiritual force in their lives to stay together, they don't love each other. Simple, harsh perhaps, but true. You should be with someone because you love them and the most important thing in the world to you is the other person. The other person and the happiness you have from being with them "fills you up".
And living together before marriage makes people break up? Well <a href='http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd111999g.html' target='_blank'>religion</a> certainly keeps folks together doesn't it! Explain to me the logic behind not living with someone before you get married. Not everyone is compatible with one another, and living together is a great way to establish whether or not the two people in a relationship actually can spend the rest of their lives together. Same with having sex before marriage; a poor sex life can poison relationships, and it's much better to find out before marriage that you might have a bad sexual partner than to marry the person and be stuck. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Define love, you seem to make a bunch of assumptions that you indirectly classify as morally right.
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What Legion said was that for a marriage to work you need god. I found that incredibly offensive and utterly unbased upon any factual evidence. Strangly enough my friends that are religious are more prone to break-ups than my non-religious friends, and my parents and extended family, plus their numerous friends, all have fantastic marriages with no trace of god or religion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, I shouldn't have worded it to give you that impression, though looking back on that post, I can't really see it being taken any other way. Yet one more reason why I'm an idiot, sorry I made you so angry with that. I wont edit it after the fact, but what I wanted to say is this:
The only marriages that work are those that deal in mutal commitment to filling the needs of the other person. People are fallen, imperfect, and the only way to deal with those is to forgive people for those imperfections, and keep loving the person, even while attempting to help them sort out thier own issues.
Maybe not so coincedentally, Christianity teaches just that: Love the person regardless <a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Romans+5:7-8' target='_blank'>just as God is said to love us</a>, accept the person, serve them, even while moving them to tackle their own issues.
In other words, Jesus taught a general formula for happy living, that should be followed to have a happy long-term relationship. Belief in God isn't needed, as you pointed out with your citation of the different people in your life who have had long happy marriage, but belief brings to the table an absolute perspective, and a rock solid base for the commitment to love people.
In short, God doesn't have to be the cornerstone, but He sure make things a hell of a lot easyer.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like I said, if you're basing the foundations of your relationship around religion, you dont love the other person. You're just using god as a glue to hold both of you together. People who truely do love one another don't need god, all they need is each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as I would like to step in and offer what I feel are a bunch of ideas and arguments on how we as human beings DO need God, but that really isn't the point of the thread, and frankly, I don't think I can put together a cohesive argument for that at 12:10 in the morning, after being up for way too long. Maybe later i'll start a thread on it. Regardless, a love for God is, in effect, what makes possible true love for other people. In other words, sacrificial, selfless, perfect love. the kind described in <a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=1+corinthians+13' target='_blank'>1 Cor 13.</a> Ryo, as cool of a person as you are, I seriously doubt your ability to love as deeply and perfectly as the God of the Bible does, due to the notable handicap of being human. But the key to begining to love people like that comes from first being loved, to see what it feels like, to see how to give it, and to figure out how huge of an impact it has on a person. What better teacher of that then the inventor of such feelings and love?
As for your religious friends, I don't know thier spiritual status, if they are merely "nominal" Christians or not. All that I really can say is that I've seen nothing more powerful than active, sacrificial love working in a person's life. And, I've seen no bigger source of that than in Christ.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Define love, you seem to make a bunch of assumptions that you indirectly classify as morally right. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Love is the commitment, the decision, to accept a person regardless of thier circumstances or moral shortcomings, and to seek to correct that person, to always do what is best for them, even to the point where one will lay down their life for someone elses well being.
More eloquently put:
<!--QuoteBegin--1 Corinthians 13+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (1 Corinthians 13)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truthfully, the people who tend to stay together don't do it out of love. At least not out of the firey kind, rather the kind instilled in a loving family <i>(Some families need not apply)</i>. There's a reason why we fall in love then fall right out of it within a few months. Mostly it's because we as a people who want love, just aren't ready for it. We're too immature. Not men, not women, all of us. If we intend to leave it to evolution then we'll be waiting quite a while to mature.
There's no such thing as a perfect mate. We have gotten to the point where we all believe that's our quest in life. To find the perfect mate. Why? Doesn't anyone remember that nobody's perfect? Don't they realize that they have to understand themselves and love themselves before they can love someone else <i>(this just comes off as balarky to me)</i>.
So, in conclusion, stop looking for Mr. Right or the girl of your dreams. Spend some time with the girl your mother warned you about, she's got just as much right to love as you. Although the odds are it still won't last longer than four months <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>P.S. My argument probably won't hold up to close scrutiny heh.</b>
Define love, you seem to make a bunch of assumptions that you indirectly classify as morally right. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though I may not believe in religion, what Legion said pretty much sums up love. Though classifying love is a tall order for any human living or dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry, I shouldn't have worded it to give you that impression, though looking back on that post, I can't really see it being taken any other way. Yet one more reason why I'm an idiot, sorry I made you so angry with that. I wont edit it after the fact, but what I wanted to say is this:
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's ok, I get pretty fired up in these kind of debates. No apology needed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> We all have our convictions and we must stick by them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only marriages that work are those that deal in mutal commitment to filling the needs of the other person. People are fallen, imperfect, and the only way to deal with those is to forgive people for those imperfections, and keep loving the person, even while attempting to help them sort out thier own issues.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mutual committment is a very important part of marriage, or indeed any relationship. My point though is that when you do love someone, imperfections vanish. You don't even notice them because in your eyes, the person you love is perfect. Now this is quite similar to what you're saying, only approaching it from a differant angle.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe not so coincedentally, Christianity teaches just that: Love the person regardless <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unconditional love is another part of a relationship, though both sides must contribute. Christianity is largely based around a doctrine of love so perhaps as you said, it is not so much of a coincidence. Though that said, it doesn't mean that god or Christianity is a required part of such a committment, merely that the two share similar traits.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for your religious friends, I don't know thier spiritual status, if they are merely "nominal" Christians or not. All that I really can say is that I've seen nothing more powerful than active, sacrificial love working in a person's life. And, I've seen no bigger source of that than in Christ. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that religion can't help people. Simply that I've seen plenty of couples and married people with no spiritality or religious conviction who are happy and loving as anyone else. I don't hold that god or religion is a nessessary part of such a union or bond.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ryo, as cool of a person as you are, I seriously doubt your ability to love as deeply and perfectly as the God of the Bible does, due to the notable handicap of being human.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it's a tough match up. But I'll say this, and though I can't swear on the bible because I don't believe in it, I will swear an oath upon the undying love that I hold for my fiancee that what I am about to say is true.
<i>If I had to give my life to save her, I would</i>
You can choose to believe that or not, but I am not lying. That is the strength of the love I hold for her.
I'm married, and have been for 5 years, we've been together as a couple for 8 years, and in truth it seems like I've known her forever, and yet only just met her (no s****ing at the back!)
I've <b>always</b> believed that there is a gulf of difference between the imagery we're subjected to of the human form (both male and female) in the media is so false as to be unnattractive, give me someone real every time. Its not that I don't know that these people are fine specimens, but they just don't float my boat, I've got nothing in common with them, and more often than not, when they appear as themselves in interviews etc they don't appeal. I guess what I'm trying to express is that I find it very easy to separate mass media defined sexiness from what I find sexy. Mass media sexy has always seemed bland, and I'll try to elaborate:
Now to my eyes, when I met her my (future) wife was gorgeous. Petite, brunette, slim, masses of dark curls. I fancied her straight away. Personally I find her stunning, I know she's not everyones cup of tea. I've always been left cold by blondes, you may feel the same about brunettes. What makes a person attractive is by and large a personal thing, and I guess its widely accepted that a large number of men find big busted blonde women attractive. In order to appeal to the largest number of men, the tendancy is to create women as products that are abnormally bland, i.e.the least number of men will find something unappealing about her, and thus she is a more marketable product. That individual may be a commodity, but I don't think I could fall in love with her from a distance. I could find her physically attractive, but I couldn't fall in love with her without spending time with her. I could go tangential on stalkers here, but I'll try to stay on topic....
I did have some really good points about the nature of love and physical attractiveness, but 3 customers called for tech support, and my brain shut down. Sorry.
That I think is complete bulshit. Relationships should be transactional, exchanging value for value. If you are constantly feeling the need to immolate yourself for the other person, you are in a BAD relationship. If the focus of a relationship is truly self sacrifice, I can guarantee that it will be a horrible experience for both. If you are with the person you ought to be with your needs should be fulfulled mutually and in parallel. They should compliment eachother.
That isn't to say that you shouldn't sacrifice for the person you love when circumstances require, but the goal of such sacrifice should be returning to better times of mutual joy, not sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice.
That I think is complete bulshit. Relationships should be transactional, exchanging value for value. If you are constantly feeling the need to immolate yourself for the other person, you are in a BAD relationship. If the focus of a relationship is truly self sacrifice, I can guarantee that it will be a horrible experience for both.
That isn't to say that you shouldn't sacrifice for the person you love when circumstances require, but the goal of such sacrifice should be returning to better times of mutual joy, not sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correction. If only ONE person is feeling the need to self-sacrifice for the other, then the relationship is going to hell in a handbasket really fast. Sacrifice, to spend time with a person, stop talking about your own problems, and assuage thier fears, SI a nessecary part of any relationship. Without it, each person just expects the other to do things for them, and as soon as the physical attraction wanes, there is nothing keeping you two together. You need commitment, and you need real love, not glorified lust.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are with the person you ought to be with your needs should be fulfulled mutually and in parallel. They should compliment eachother.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correction. In a good relationship, each person's giftings will either complement or supplement the other person's, rounding the other person out, so to speak. Your needs will never be fulfilled forever by a single human being. It just won't happen. When you expect them to be, and they are inevitably not, you WILL feel ripped off by the other person, and your relationship will fail unless you base it on more solid things than your own emotions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I had to give my life to save her, I would
You can choose to believe that or not, but I am not lying. That is the strength of the love I hold for her. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. I believe you, and I'm glad to hear it. I wish you two the best.
I do have a challenge for you though. Live each day as if it was your last on earth, and you saw no reason not to give her everything you had. Pay attention to her, make her feel loved, little things, big things, then get up the next day and do it again. Sooner or later, you'll see why I make such a big deal out of this. It's hard <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. I have no doubts about your ability and want to die for her, but living for her? Now there's the ticket! Make that a habit, and you have it made, my friend.
I've seen a number of relationships go down because they based it around sacrificing for eachother, which in the long term just isn't any fun. Their idea of love (as is yours it appears) was of sacrifice for another person, and their relationships failed as a result.
Mutual sacrifice is inherently a paradoxical concept. How are you supposed to be willing accept someone's sacrifice for your benefit if you feel you ought to be sacrificing yourself for their benefit? Then end result is that you both drive yourselves into the ground, killing yourselves to give something that the other isn't willing to accept.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Jan 20 2004, 08:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jan 20 2004, 08:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sacrifice, to spend time with a person, stop talking about your own problems, and assuage thier fears, SI a nessecary part of any relationship. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That isn't at all what I consider sacrifice. Personally, I don't like listening to myself talk, and solving other people's problems is enjoyable, particularly the problems of people I care about. That's something that is mutually fulfilling, or at times when it is a sacrifice, it is a sacrifice with the goal in mind of returning to mutual happiness.
Sacrifice should be solely a means, and not ever an end.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Jan 20 2004, 08:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jan 20 2004, 08:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In a good relationship, each person's giftings will either complement or supplement the other person's, rounding the other person out, so to speak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I said.
That's exactly what I said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not. You said that if you are with the right person, you will be happy no matter what. I merely sated that in any good matchup, people will have the right tools to make each other happy. It takes a whole other commitment to apply those tools. Happiness doesn't come from nothing, from just 'being with the right person,' it comes from mutually sharing what you've been given.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mutual sacrifice is inherently a paradoxical concept. How are you supposed to be willing accept someone's sacrifice for your benefit if you feel you ought to be sacrificing yourself for their benefit? Then end result is that you both drive yourselves into the ground, killing yourselves to give something that the other isn't willing to accept.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, we have to let people serve us. But that doesn't mean that we stop going out of our way to help them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've seen a number of relationships go down because they based it around sacrificing for eachother, which in the long term just isn't any fun. Their idea of love (as is yours it appears) was of sacrifice for another person, and their relationships failed as a result.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd be willing to bet that their relationship failed not because they wanted to help each other, but that they expected the other person to match and exceed what they were bringing to the table. I refer you to my first argument : People are inherantly flawed and screwed up. No person will be able to match what you put in perfectly, and that's where the dissapointment sets in.
Real love doesn't expect anything in return.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup; Wolves ^^ Your favourite canide species <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> You know you love us XD
I was going to waffle on and on about my opinions here; but I will be to the point..or try to be. I'll add my own opinions here as I think it will help the discussion (from what I have read so far <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Love is in my opinion, one of the strongest forces in existance. Myself and my girlfriend (who is human (physically <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) - no funny jokes) have "proven" through our experience that love can and often trancends death (if you take "past lives" and such into account).
I personally judge beings by the quality of their soul and not their form; form should be a "bonus" if anything, and that "bonus" is subject to a lot of interpretation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Real love doesn't expect anything in return. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded.
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<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'><b> I would like anyone intending to post about how my spiritual beliefs are "irrational" and/or "stupid" to instead just ignore me. No more flames, please.</b></span>
-----
Might want to reread, I didn't say that, and I agree.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd be willing to bet that their relationship failed not because they wanted to help each other, but that they expected the other person to match and exceed what they were bringing to the table.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It didn't fail because they wanted to <i>help</i> eachother. it failed because they wanted to <i>sacrifice</i> for eachother. There is a big difference. Successfully helping someone is mutually fulfilling. Sacrificing for someone, with the sacrifice as the end, is usually not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Real love doesn't expect anything in return.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with this either. Real love <i>without any self respect</i> doesn't expect anything in return. You should expect the same level of love and commitment from the person you love. You should expect the effort you put into their happiness to be rewarded, if only by their happiness and gratitude.
Since I have been mostly making negative statements, I will make a positive one. I don't think this is a complete definition, but it seems to be pretty accurate. Love is when someone else's happiness becomes your own.
I do have a challenge for you though. Live each day as if it was your last on earth, and you saw no reason not to give her everything you had. Pay attention to her, make her feel loved, little things, big things, then get up the next day and do it again. Sooner or later, you'll see why I make such a big deal out of this. It's hard . I have no doubts about your ability and want to die for her, but living for her? Now there's the ticket! Make that a habit, and you have it made, my friend.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I view every day as a new challange to express my love for her. We havn't gone a single day without telling each other that we love one another. She is my life; without her life could be nothing but a pale shadow devoid of joy or happiness. And thankyou for believeing me, I am very grateful for your trust.
Sometimes I wonder to myself; is what we have found what everyone else experiances? I can't answer that, I mean I've seen relationships fail and succeed all around me. But if this is what love is like, if this is how people do feel, then I can't imagine anything better. It's like a blending of two entities into one whole; I can't imagine life without her. It's like she was always part of me. Emotions so strong that they grab you in your chest and make you want to cry your eyes out that something this wonderful could happen to you. Does everyone feel this way? I can only hope that the answer to that is yes.
Sorry if I got a bit emotional there guys. I'm just trying to express my feelings honestly.
...
In short, God doesn't have to be the cornerstone, but He sure make things a hell of a lot easyer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes a good man to admit that, Legionnaired, and the second quoted statement is perfectly reasonable as well. However, I'll need to ask you all to leave it at that, and leave the discussion of god's place in life for another thread. Sure, it's central to the discussion, but we cannot address the issue successfully without setting up the groundwork (which is a much greater scope than this thread).
And a certain type of penguins mate for life as well <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->