I'm making a map, But I'm having my usual problems with scale and size <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--QUAD+Jan 13 2004, 08:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QUAD @ Jan 13 2004, 08:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This flow is inwards: the rebels are always attacking, and the guards are always patroling and "camping" to do what they're paid to do: guard. So the guard team is supposed to camp: that's how they win the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but you need something in place to stop the flag room itself being too camped. If everyone's holed up in there, it's going to be hard for the rebels.
One possible method of at least ameliorating this would be to award more points to the EE for kills that are further away from the flag. I don't know how you would implement this, but it seems to me to encourage looking all through the base for intruders.
I'd say preventing the gaurds from camping the flag room is more of a chalange to the mappers than the devs. If the flag room is made too dangerous to camp in directly (ie, lots of dark spots that can be sniped from extra.) then it will force the gaurds to wider parimeters with more light spots. I think it is important to say that it should be very difficult (if not impossible) for the rebels to reach the flag room unseen, assuming the guards are guarding the right spots. My recomendation for the hacker and engineer class, is to give each a welder type tool of somesort, like in NS, and then let the mappers make cool things for them to do, like welding lights on/off, or welding ladders to key areas up/down, make it so a good rebel team can wipe the map in a cloud of darkness. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> thats my 2 cents.
<!--QuoteBegin--QUAD+Jan 13 2004, 02:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QUAD @ Jan 13 2004, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When me and DOOManaic first discussed possible mod plans, we decided first and foremost we wanted the game to have the "flow" of other stealth espionage games. This flow is inwards: the rebels are always attacking, and the guards are always patroling and "camping" to do what they're paid to do: guard. So the guard team is supposed to camp: that's how they win the game. The challenge for the rebels is to find away around them with their stealth tactics. If we wanted a two way game flow, we woulda just made another TFC clone :p. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> At the risk of revealing too much about our plans for Espionge (the mod, not the class), the idea is that the Guards start near the center of the map, with whatever the guard there, and then the Rebels will come in to do whatever.
The idea is that the closer into the Guard base the rebel gets, the more in danger he is. And just the opposite, the further out from base the Guard goes, the more likely he is to get killed, or not even know where it came from.
While the guard team is meant to be 'campy', there will definately be gameplay mechanics in place to keep them doing stuff and also ensure there's always a chance Rebels to make an opening and get in, accomplish whatever, and get out.
<!--QuoteBegin--Venmoch+Jan 13 2004, 02:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Venmoch @ Jan 13 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Tequila+Jan 13 2004, 01:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tequila @ Jan 13 2004, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This means that even a person spraying wildly has a good chance of killing a man, whereas a proper recoil system encourages marksmanship, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marksmanship isn't the point of the "Evil Empire"
They have big guns and are going to use them. Getting caught out as a stealth person is meant to hurt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That isn't the point, the point is that with a conal accuracy system coupled with weak sounds and effects makes the guns seem like nothing more than cheap toys. Where's the fun in that aspect of the game?
Plus you mention the DOD recoil system, which is an extreme one. Even a mild recoil system would rock.
Then again, at the end of the day my fears are probably unfounded, cause weapons in HL2 are no doubt going to feel different to HL1 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Is it reasonable to request a visual representation of the recoil? I'm thinking more like the Rainbow6 series than the CS one that doesn't really give you any idea where the bullet will go (it's at its worst when you strafe, cuz the bullet gets deflected to the side).
A suggestion about the business about defenders "camping" an objective (MAN I hate that term). In Return to Castle Wolfenstein, and Enemy Territory, the Axis are almost always defending and the Allies are almost always attacking, so it's a similiar idea. In addition, the defensive locations are very easy to dig yourself in. They're easy to hold and hard to get into.
The way RtCW maps deal with this is that the defensive objective is a good distance from the defenders' spawn. So, it's a tough nut to crack, but once you've done it you have a bit of time before the defenders can get there again.
Oh, and to everyone playing team based, objective based games: delete the term "camping" from your vocabulary, unless you're referring to a specific outdoor activity involving tents. It's called "defending", or "an ambush", both of which are completely legitimate and sometimes actually essential. Deal with it.
It the flag was put indoors in a large well lit room, and all the Gaurds sat in that room in such angles that it would be impossible to snipe them through the doorway, that would indeed be camping. That being said, that situation would be intirely dependant on what the mappers decided to do on thier map. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> im actually getting more exited about this little mod than NS 3.0, so simple yet so ingenious, its a wonder this hasn't been done before.
<!--QuoteBegin--Swiftspear+Jan 14 2004, 01:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jan 14 2004, 01:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It the flag was put indoors in a large well lit room, and all the Gaurds sat in that room in such angles that it would be impossible to snipe them through the doorway, that would indeed be camping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why we won't do something dumb like that. :P
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I know, Im just saying, the diffinitive equation for a mod like this, in which both sides depend heavily on outlay of the map, in terms of where lighting is located, and visa versa, is the map. & since alot of people have jumped right into making maps, I thought I'd give some relevent sugestions.
Comments
True, but you need something in place to stop the flag room itself being too camped. If everyone's holed up in there, it's going to be hard for the rebels.
One possible method of at least ameliorating this would be to award more points to the EE for kills that are further away from the flag. I don't know how you would implement this, but it seems to me to encourage looking all through the base for intruders.
At the risk of revealing too much about our plans for Espionge (the mod, not the class), the idea is that the Guards start near the center of the map, with whatever the guard there, and then the Rebels will come in to do whatever.
The idea is that the closer into the Guard base the rebel gets, the more in danger he is. And just the opposite, the further out from base the Guard goes, the more likely he is to get killed, or not even know where it came from.
While the guard team is meant to be 'campy', there will definately be gameplay mechanics in place to keep them doing stuff and also ensure there's always a chance Rebels to make an opening and get in, accomplish whatever, and get out.
Marksmanship isn't the point of the "Evil Empire"
They have big guns and are going to use them. Getting caught out as a stealth person is meant to hurt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That isn't the point, the point is that with a conal accuracy system coupled with weak sounds and effects makes the guns seem like nothing more than cheap toys. Where's the fun in that aspect of the game?
Plus you mention the DOD recoil system, which is an extreme one. Even a mild recoil system would rock.
Then again, at the end of the day my fears are probably unfounded, cause weapons in HL2 are no doubt going to feel different to HL1 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Guns are for sissies anyway. Gimmie da knife! :D
The way RtCW maps deal with this is that the defensive objective is a good distance from the defenders' spawn. So, it's a tough nut to crack, but once you've done it you have a bit of time before the defenders can get there again.
Oh, and to everyone playing team based, objective based games: delete the term "camping" from your vocabulary, unless you're referring to a specific outdoor activity involving tents. It's called "defending", or "an ambush", both of which are completely legitimate and sometimes actually essential. Deal with it.
That's why we won't do something dumb like that. :P