Balance Issues (2.01 Mainly)

Nathanael_UK · January 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">What is the correct balance?</div> Here is what I think is how the game was coded for:

Marines must kill the aliens before the aliens reach them
Aliens must reach the Marines and should be able to kill

Atm it seems to be:

Marines kill the aliens both as the alien is running towards them and also close up
Aliens must reach the Marines and have a chance of killing

The Way it should be:
Aliens are the close range brawlers. Marines are the long-range people, each got their own niche and middle is Marines... At the moment it doesn't seem to be that way. Even when I'm close my chance of killing gets lower and lower per minute that goes by. Getting 4 bites and dodging bullets is near impossible, the Marine can just reload his gun in that time.
I was thinking of ways to fix this. I couldn't really think of any. For example:
Giving HMG's more power at long range = close-range mowing.
Removing shotguns = a lot of flames
Removing pistol = a lot of flames
Getting rid of impact gl = possible

Your opinions on this would be nice. Oh, my second points.

The Marine base class and the Alien base class is slightly biased aliens at the start and then by the end of the Marine tech tree is balanced heavily towards the Marines. Why?
The base classes need to start even and stay even. A Marine has the advantage that a Skulk has to go to him, not him to it. Any ideas?

Hyperion · January 2004

i think this expains why lerk spike was removed, which is because it was overpowered mainly because of its range (note that bite doesnt do 16 damage) i think that if aliens dont kill a rine at close range it is because they were killed by another rine that was far away, and if they dont get the close kill (like me) then they need to learn how to play aliens(also like me).

coris · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hyperion2010 @ Jan 7 2004, 08:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i think this expains why lerk spike was removed, which is because it was overpowered mainly because of its range (note that bite doesnt do 16 damage) i think that if aliens dont kill a rine at close range it is because they were killed by another rine that was far away, and if they dont get the close kill (like me) then they need to learn how to play aliens(also like me).  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Im a really good skulk, and i can still get killed when im really close up to a rines if hes really skilled.

I am also a pretty skilled marine, and can shoot/knife skulks when they are close up, so what you're saying isnt totally true... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Grillkohle · January 2004

Fact is that marines have it a lot harder to kill aliens once they are close, because they can move so fast around the fontiersman that he can't follow the quick movements with his crosshair.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The Marine base class and the Alien base class is slightly biased aliens at the start and then by the end of the Marine tech tree is balanced heavily towards the Marines.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
True. This needs some work, it has been discussed in a different thread yet (loss of researches on loss of arms lab).

Swiftspear · January 2004

I have both knifed skulks, and bitten HA partys to death on an ambush. I dont think there is a hard coded balance system, it all depends on player skill. If a good skulk is good enough to avoid long range fire, why shouldn't he? similarly, if a good marine is able to accurately keep his train on a skulk while it is biting at his legs, why shouldn't he? The balance in NS is in the building and upgrades, the skill of its players are set apart from that.

Guardian1 · January 2004

It's almost comparing apples to oranges. In a one on one fight, at range, between equally skilled players, the Marine will win. Does this mean that the Marines are overpowered? No. It means that each side picks it's own tactics. Played wisely, a skulk can harrass just as well as a lerk.

I think that the balance is hard to maintain on this game due to a number of factors. Most important is the number of players on each team. The more players on the Alien side, the easier it is for the marines to win over an extended period. Again, this doesn't mean that the game is unbalanced, but it does mean that more teamwork is required from the aliens in order to win.

Other factors include an ever changing set of tactics and of course; skill.

Comparing both sides as if you use the same tactics will defintely leave one side in the better position. But because they are played differently, you have to compare them differently.

Spazmatic · January 2004

I don't think the game was ever coded with this type of balance in mind... First, one on one fights are discouraged. Second, straight fights are discouraged (ambushes, flanking, etc all seem to be the focus). Third, as people have mentioned, players run the gamut of skill levels, experience levels, or general attentiveness (yeah, that effects your ability to win), and thus, game balance comes from elsewhere... Balancing 1v1 la/lmg marine on hive 1 skulk fights at a variety of distances would actually unbalance the game... That's not even considering the permutations thereof, such as shotty 'rines. Balance lies not in such things, but in a greater, overall picture, and the concept of counters... You don't have a problem if skulks don't match up 1v1 with marines, or marines don't match up 1v1 with skulks, etc... You do have a problem if skulks have no counter (cue laughter), or jetpackers are so fast that nothing can touch them, or heavies are unstoppable, etc... Or if tech rates and so forth cause problems with advancement. Not for skulks and 'rines gettin' their freak on.

Winter · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grillkohle @ Jan 7 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Fact is that marines have it a lot harder to kill aliens once they are close, because they can move so fast around the fontiersman that he can't follow the quick movements with his crosshair.

</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Errr.... That's when I'm at my best (short range anyhow) because as they TRY to strafe around me, I mow them down. Not much too it, just takes some practice lol.

rennex · January 2004

Smart marines try to keep as much distance as possible between a skulk and themselves, while smart skulks try to minimize the amount of time they spend in a marine's LOS while still out of bite range. Once they are in bite range, whether through bhopping around a corner or dropping down from above a doorway, they must kill quickly.

Maian · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hyperion2010 @ Jan 7 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i think this expains why lerk spike was removed, which is because it was overpowered mainly because of its range (note that bite doesnt do 16 damage) i think that if aliens dont kill a rine at close range it is because they were killed by another rine that was far away, and if they dont get the close kill (like me) then they need to learn how to play aliens(also like me).  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Spikes was removed for several reasons, including possibly the one you mentioned.

- Spikes nullify mines, so removing spikes improves mines
- Bite is supposedly more effective against JP and lerks are supposed to be anti-JP
- More fun

XCan · January 2004

As I've been thinking through the situation really if we have a team of ELITE marines and a team of ELITE aliens the marines should really always win. Why? Because they have a ranged advantage straight from the beginning. As an elite you would also think that the marines missed very little in thus neutralizing the khaaraa threats good enough for them not to be able to expand.

Balance Issues (2.01 Mainly)

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