Eu Letter Bombs
MonsieurEvil
Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">You've got hail - of fire!</div> Ok, so EU officials have been getting <a href='http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4077249' target='_blank'>letterbombs</a> for weeks, some of which have hurt some people, some of which have not (and most of which have not been caught, but that's a different topic about lax security). There was a previous heated argument <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=56161' target='_blank'>here</a> some weeks ago, where people talked about admiring Iraqi guerrillas and their tactics, or at least tacitly approving of them as 'any means necessary'. Some quotes:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I respect them for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They're just defending their country. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I respect those people just as much as I respect the Kamikaze pilots of WWII. Those people went out, knowing that they had a very good chance of never coming home. That takes courage, honor, and an iron belief in your customs & religion<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyhoo, the senders of the letterbombs are basically not in favor of the EU, and are trying to dissuade people via the old exploding candygram trick. Plenty of similarities here - most attacks in Iraq are directed towards civillians, infrastructure, aid workers, etc. Do the same people that thought guerrillas in Iraq were freedom fighters believe that these guys are as well, and that they deserve respect? Just curious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I respect them for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They're just defending their country. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I respect those people just as much as I respect the Kamikaze pilots of WWII. Those people went out, knowing that they had a very good chance of never coming home. That takes courage, honor, and an iron belief in your customs & religion<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyhoo, the senders of the letterbombs are basically not in favor of the EU, and are trying to dissuade people via the old exploding candygram trick. Plenty of similarities here - most attacks in Iraq are directed towards civillians, infrastructure, aid workers, etc. Do the same people that thought guerrillas in Iraq were freedom fighters believe that these guys are as well, and that they deserve respect? Just curious.
Comments
letter bombs acomplish little to nothing, except creating a media frenzy.
And suicide bombers have more balls than letterbombers because they risk their own life, so they deserve more respect. Then again, letterbombers are usually bombing bureacrauts instead of civilians so they are only doing a favor to the world <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Is it just me or is my avatar gonez0r? Omigosh H?bel, it's your duty as an admin, super admin at that, to fix the board so...get to work! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Please <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--village photos+ when you click that link--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (village photos @ when you click that link)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The owner of this file has exceeded their daily usage limit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--village photos+ when you click that link--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (village photos @ when you click that link)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The owner of this file has exceeded their daily usage limit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then that just officially sucks. Though I don't know what else to do because when I try to upload my avatar I get "The upload failed. Please contact a member of staff to help rectify the problem" <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oooh, am I being offtopic? Naah, it's just Monses thread anyway. Nothing important <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I want to rob a bank. And get away with it.
letter bombs acomplish little to nothing, except creating a media frenzy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehhh, most of the really violent attacks on colation troops and mosques and such have been remote-detonated bombs. No necks on the line there, or at least, not any more than mailing it in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it's people who live in EU and oppose it, I believe there's plenty of better ways to fight against EU than by sending some letterbombs<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh, no one ever reads the links... from Reuters:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Italian police suspect anarchists opposed to what they called the "new European order" were behind the letter bomb campaign which began last month when a parcel exploded in the hands of European Commission President Romano Prodi. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Untill you give me more information on who is sending the letters and why, I can't answer this question, as your analogy doesn't hold water very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Until you read the links, I can only lead you to teh water, horsie. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> But if you want more, go <a href='http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&edition=us&q=letter+bombs&spell=1' target='_blank'>here</a>. Nice that I've read all about this and Dread Zepplin the eropean hasn't heard about his own Union being bombed... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And suicide bombers have more balls than letterbombers because they risk their own life, so they deserve more respect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find brains to be more respectable than balls. Any moron can blow himself up, why does he get more respect than someone who blows other people up again and again, and gets away clean to fight another day?
There is no relativity here folks.
Wow, I may have actually gotten to clear up Spooge misunderstanding something. First time evaaarrr!!!!111oneone <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
2.)I think that no matter the state of their "forces" people will always fight really hard for what they believe in. Even if its deemed wrong. Thats a good strategy "Attack Civilians, Get americans to fight back, Stray grenade/bullet/etc Kills some Iraqi cviliians, The US receives the bad rap" theme.
As for the EU....I think its just another sad effort at world peace. Its much like saying a city has no prisoners. When you look closer its because there is no prison <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, I was just putting an exclamation to your thought <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nice try Columbo <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nice try Columbo <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aaarrrggggggg! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
EU must be ticked off that it's already been disinfranchised.
<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57918-2004Jan6.html' target='_blank'>Look, more freedom fighters defending their country from democracy. By killing children. Let's respect them. Not.</a>
You do know the guy who created the idea of running commertial jets into buildings was Arafat's idea. But it was the russians who trained them how to hijack.
Arafat is Russias own Osama bin Laden. They trained him and now he's out of control :|
The link says it's an anarchist movement...wth does that mean? Are they against EU for a reason? To me that 'anarchist' sounds like they don't have a cause and they just want to cause disturbance. Like I said, atleast the guerillas bombing in Iraq have a cause. These guys could be bombing any officials in any country. Unless you can prove that they actually oppose teh evil EU that oppresses their people etc. they don't deserve respect for harming people out of boredom.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find brains to be more respectable than balls. Any moron can blow himself up, why does he get more respect than someone who blows other people up again and again, and gets away clean to fight another day?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh no, any moron can't just blow themselves up. Could you? It requires devoution and I respect that in people. Let's take a look at Japanese kamikaze fighters: there was no better way to carry out bombings against ships than by actual people piloting the flyingbombs, so they just did that. I ask you, how many people are REALLY ready to die for they country with 100% certainty? That's why they get my respect.
Comparing the different bombers:
Iraq bombers: they have a cause, they fight against soldiers at least sometimes, some of them risk their own necks.
EU bombers: out of boredom(oh wait, it's anarchism they are fighting for), always against civilians, they are sending letters.
Japanese kamikazes: they had a cause, they fought always against soldiers, all of them risked their necks.
Teh conclusion: Japanese d00d r t3h win, some Iraq guerillas get a bit of respect, EU bombers get none <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit:<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nice that I've read all about this and Dread Zepplin the eropean hasn't heard about his own Union being bombed...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's not on the first page of the newspaper, it's not worth reading. Besides, it seems like I get all the info I'll ever need from here <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The parcel that exploded in the UK did little more than scare the secretary that opened it. I honestly lay the blame at the MEP and his organisation for not following decent security protocols.
I fail to see what this Italian group will accomplish - do they seriously expect a few damp squibs are better than petitioning their MEP and raising informed discussion? "Oh crikey! they are sending fireworks now, lads, time to do a U-turn on our policies!"
As my old man always used to say - "The thing about common sense is that it isn't actually that common".
[slightly offtopic but relevant rant]
This means I put sport/trophy hunters in the same group as terrorists/murderors. Aside anatomical differences between the victims, please tell me what is the difference?
In response to anyone posting:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Animals are not people<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But people are animals...(you simply cannot deny this fact, to do so is pure ignorance/stupidity IMO)...Even so, Red is not Yellow,Green is not blue...so...does that mean we should ban the colour red? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
[/slightly offtopic but relevant rant]
Back ontopic; I respect those who actually defend themselves ethically justifyably; not those that attack another without ethical justification. Letter bombs and such fall under "attack another without ethical justification" section.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As my old man always used to say - "The thing about common sense is that it isn't actually that common". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OH so true ^^
Sadly sometimes its necessary to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them (oooh! culture!). I think we'd all like to see a world where fighting was unnecessary, but its not happening yet. A lesser evil to prevent a larger one, then?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[slightly offtopic but relevant rant]
This means I put sport/trophy hunters in the same group as terrorists/murderors. Aside anatomical differences between the victims, please tell me what is the difference?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<flippant> Why, the flavour, of course! </flippant> Again, killing for fun is bad, no matter what you kill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In response to anyone posting:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Animals are not people<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But people are animals...(you simply cannot deny this fact, to do so is pure ignorance/stupidity IMO)...Even so, Red is not Yellow,Green is not blue...so...does that mean we should ban the colour red? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
[/slightly offtopic but relevant rant] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've lost me there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back ontopic; I respect those who actually defend themselves ethically justifyably; not those that attack another without ethical justification. Letter bombs and such fall under "attack another without ethical justification" section. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But who is fit to judge the justification? (you know "society" is just a cop-out)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As my old man always used to say - "The thing about common sense is that it isn't actually that common". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OH so true ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's a smart cookie - I think I take after my mother's side.....
Waste the earth resources? It will get recycled not wasted.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Comparing the different bombers:
Iraq bombers: they have a cause, they fight against soldiers at least sometimes, some of them risk their own necks.
EU bombers: out of boredom(oh wait, it's anarchism they are fighting for), always against civilians, they are sending letters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To quote Reuters and give you the details Dread: "A previously unknown Italian group calling itself the Informal Anarchist Federation is believed to be behind the bombing campaign. At the end of last year it threatened to target what it called the EU's repressive apparatus of control". There is your reasoning, although it seems rather self-evident that they are not pure Anarchists and instead specifically are against the EU.
As for "they fight against soldiers at least sometimes", can't you just admit that you're desperately trying to find the "good" in these guerrilla attacks? That's like saying that bank robbers are ok because they only shoot bank tellers 'sometimes', but usually just steal the money.
And to clarify a point here that seems to confuse a lot of people, government workers are not civilians. Just because you are not a member of the armed forces does not mean you are a civillian. Policemen are not civilians. Nor postal workers. Nor MP's. Are they suddenly legitimate targets for letter bombs? What about if instead of mailing them a bomb, these Italian wackos plant a command-detonated mine in their driveway and blow them up? Is that now acceptable? How about if they blow up the water treatment facility that handles Parliament (and also all the real civiliians in the area, by the way)? Is that acceptable?
His uncle signed up for the job. It doesn't matter what happened afterwards. Or did the Japanese force their soldiers to become kamikazes? If so, then I'll take my words back. No respect for that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EU's repressive apparatus of control". There is your reasoning, although it seems rather self-evident that they are not pure Anarchists and instead specifically are against the EU.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what "repressive apparatus of control" means but I guess they have a goal then. Doesn't sound very convincing though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for "they fight against soldiers at least sometimes", can't you just admit that you're desperately trying to find the "good" in these guerrilla attacks? That's like saying that bank robbers are ok because they only shoot bank tellers 'sometimes', but usually just steal the money.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't actually campaigned much for the guerillas in that other thread, but to clarify my point: I have respect for all soldiers, more so for those who are willing to give their life for a cause. I don't respect a child killer or people who attack unarmed civilians. However, I respect a kamikaze pilot or guerilla who blows himself up to take out few of the enemy soldiers. Let's get to the civilian point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to clarify a point here that seems to confuse a lot of people, government workers are not civilians. Just because you are not a member of the armed forces does not mean you are a civillian. Policemen are not civilians. Nor postal workers. Nor MP's. Are they suddenly legitimate targets for letter bombs? What about if instead of mailing them a bomb, these Italian wackos plant a command-detonated mine in their driveway and blow them up? Is that now acceptable? How about if they blow up the water treatment facility that handles Parliament (and also all the real civiliians in the area, by the way)? Is that acceptable?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion, if you're signed up to stamp government mails, you're still a civilian. A postman IS a civilian. Soldiers are acceptable military targets, a clerk in the mailing room or a computer geek that does software for the government is not. So I don't have any respect for those who kill civilians(or unarmed government emplyees), were they EU mailbombers or Iraq suicide bombers. However, in the on going battle field in Iraq it's imo more acceptable for a guerilla to attack a Coalition convoy and blow himself up than to mailbomb a secretary. Soldiers sign up for fighting, postmans sign up for a nice job that doesn't hurt anyone. There's a difference. Not to mention that EU is still a trading block. It hasn't done much to the Italians, except the repressive apparatus of control, which I don't quite grasp anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So suicide bombing enemy soldiers can be just as respectable as any soldier fighting. Even more. I don't know if these Italian mailbombers have a good reason to fight EU, however they should wait for EUF to grow so they could attack soldiers <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
He did not sign up, he was forced, like I said. They don't weld shut cockpits and give you a half-tank of gas when you volunteer. Commence retraction now and admit that you learned something. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have respect for all soldiers, more so for those who are willing to give their life for a cause. I don't respect a child killer or people who attack unarmed civilians<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, I can agree with that. It was not particularly clear in your previous statements, but that's our Zepplin!
As for the rest (Dread never uses a sentence when a paragraph will do! J/K <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ), we're not disagreeing, and I really wasn't talking to you. More to others that seem to think no matter what sort of violence you use, if you're a 'freedom fighter' it's ok. Maybe Ryo and the others can chime in here, they've been strangely quiet on the subject. And yes, I just agreed with Dread. For whom the bell tolls!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
He did not sign up, he was forced, like I said. They don't weld shut cockpits and give you a half-tank of gas when you volunteer. Commence retraction now and admit that you learned something. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes kind sir, you have taught me the ways of true <b>Monsism</b> and never again shall I raise my hand against you.
Then again, you can't force anyone to hit an enemy ship with a flying-bomb. Half-tank and welded cockpits were probably there just to make sure no one would change their minds. However I don't think any of those kamikaze pilots were forced. They probably signed up for it themselves volutarily, under a heavy religious and nationalistic propaganda I admit, but they did it still. Someone who doesn't want to do it, doesn't make a good kamikaze pilot. Or maybe they were ordered to become kamikazes but no one just dared to say "I don't want to" because that would've ruined their honor.
Well, 'nuff about that. I almost fell from my chair when I read this part: "And yes, I just agreed with Dread." I thought you had lost your mind but then I noticed: "Dread never uses a sentence when a paragraph will do!" and realized that everything was alright and normal again <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Monsism with capital M <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Is it at all possible that you might both be wrong and someday, admit it? Maybe? Possibly? I know we joke around a lot and such, but it gets pretty discouraging that even when you are presented with facts or history, you discount them out of hand when they do not match your opinion. Saying "however, I don't think' when you just admitted complete ignorance of the subject matter is super tiresome.
But nevertheless, I will persevere:
<a href='http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1995/FJA.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...rt/1995/FJA.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Initially, adequate numbers of volunteers existed to staff the Kamikaze squadrons. However, when the mission of these squadrons expanded and public support waned, there were not enough volunteers to fill the squadrons. As a result, the pressure on potential candidates was tremendous. Leaders told young pilots that Japan needed selfless warriors in these desperate times to put aside their worldly interests and eagerly sacrifice themselves. In doing so, their spirits would forever dwell in the Yasukuni Shrine for all of Japan to pay them homage.15
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One Kamikaze squadron commander, Captain Yoshiro Tsubaki, explained to his young pilots the gravity of Japan's situation and that it was now time to make a great decision. He stated "Any of you unwilling to give your lives as divine sons of the Great Nippon Empire will not be required to do so. Those incapable of doing so will raise their hands--now."16 This was, undoubtedly, an attempt to relieve the conscience of a commander who preferred to let volunteers commit suicide rather than to sentence them to death. However, his patriotic speech failed to rally the unanimous support for certain death that he had hoped for. Infuriated, the Captain called forward the six pilots who had raised their hands and "castigated the honest dissenters as cowards and then announced shamelessly that he had lied to them all, that these six would be set up as horrible examples to the others. These were to be the first to die."17<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Japanese military leaders ordered thousands of men involuntarily to their death. These "sentenced" pilots often had weeks or months before their mission to contemplate the fate awaiting them. Many of these designated Kamikaze drank heavy after learning of their assignment and numerous accounts exist of drunken pilots being helped into their planes before taking off on their missions.18 As the motivation and spirit began to diminish in the Kamikaze squadrons, several methods were developed to ensure that pilots could not change their minds, once airborne, and safely abandon their mission. For example, pilots who returned to the base were ridiculed, labeled as cowards, and deemed unfit to serve the Emperor. Even those pilots who returned to their base because they could not locate their assigned target due to bad weather were subjected to ridicule.19 As a result, many pilots unable to find their targets crashed hopelessly into the water. Moreover, officials bolted some canopies shut to prevent the pilots from escaping certain death.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Japanese military commanders were frustrated with the hopelessness of their struggle and frantically sacrificed every available life in suicide tactics. The cold brutality and commitment of commanders not to survive the defeat of Japan was not directed solely at the military. During the battles for Saipan and Okinawa, in the face of the approaching allies, military commanders ordered civilians to commit mass suicide by jumping off the cliffs. When some families hesitated to jump, soldiers shot them. A brutal incident on Okinawa was described by Saburo Inenaga, "As the fighting drew to an end, civilians hid with the military in the caves at the southern tip of the island. When a frightened child cried out, a soldier grabbed it from the mother's arms and strangled the child to death in front of everyone."20<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what you are respecting. If that's something to be encouraged, well, we're never going to agree on anything.
I apologize. I wasn't trying to pull out just something out of my head but I honestly believed that Japanese honor tradition was what drove the soldiers to pilot kamikaze planes. That's what my knowledge of history told me, and that's why I questioned your first reply on this matter, as I've learned never to take anything on granted here. Like I said, " Or did the Japanese force their soldiers to become kamikazes? If so, then I'll take my words back. No respect for that." I can admit when I am wrong and now it seems that I am. I hope you understand that I didn't pull some last minute explanations to counter your arguments, I really thought that they signed up for it themselves, or at least didn't oppose it. Again, I'm a little bit wiser.
My final statement is still the same: respect for soldiers who are willing to give their life for a cause. Out of their own will, in this case, it seems they didn't want to do it.
Peace <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->