<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <i>Posted by Ryo-Ohki</i> My family's house has been robbed 3 times. Each time this occured when we were out of the house for a few hours. Guess a gun would have really helped then wouldn't it? I have never personally been a victim of crime. No-one has tried to invade my house here in Brisbane. No-one has tried to mug me. No-one has tried to rob me. Why the heck would I need a gun? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't feel the need, you don't feel the need. I assume we gun owning american people aren't trying to force others to buy them.... are we? I didn't get the memo.
As far as things in the US of A, it's my thinking that regardless of the state of gun ownership, all people should be trained in gun safety. The things are out there and one might be in the hand of someone who does not care to own a gun, at some point. Might as well know how to safely remove the ammunition so it cannot be fired. If one ends up being pointed at a person, it would be nice to recognize the weapon and know it's strengths and limitations. This would give a chance for a more informed decision on whether to fight or submit given the situation. It would help save lives.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But it's not only that: no-one I know has been the victim of crime. Closest would be one of my friends who got into a knife-fight at a club. Should he have shot the guy instead? (they both survived with minor injuries btw, the cops broke it up). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most definitely not. The number one rule I learned about gun safety is not to use one if it can be avoided, it's just a basic concept of equal force. The number two rule was don't pull a gun unless you are willing to shoot to kill, immediately thereafter. More people are killed by their own guns than most care to imagine. Generally idiots that go for a Hollywood style "Ah, I've got you now" scene.
Besides I assume there were people at the club, hopefully bystanders in such situations will be quick enough to intervene before things get deadly with melee weapons. If there's a bar full of capable people and someone is stabbed to death right in front of them...the blood is on the bystanders hands just as much if not more so than on the killer's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just think that you Yanks are being paranoid. Home defense? Robbers arn't going to come into your house when you're there, it's too risky. Buy some security lights: the kind that light up when anyone comes near. That'll scare off any intruders no worries. Get a dog. It doesn't have to be trained to attack, all it has to do is bark. Going out on the streets? Take some pepper spray or a stun gun. *cue arguement that doped up criminals are going to ignore that* It is one hardcore criminal that takes pepper spray to the eyes and keeps coming. Any criminal that ignores that is going to ignore a bullet in his limbs. Go to some self-defense classes and learn how to defend yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have a tendancy to be paranoid. But then, it works just fine for us. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well I know people here in the US who have had their home robbed or had an attempted robbery while they were home. One involves a story from my Uncle. Apparently he parked around back one day, and was just about to get some shut-eye when he heard his window being busted in. Well turns out this "youngun" with nothing but a knife walked through a pitch-black room right into a shotgun leveled at his chest. Now my uncle being an ex-military vet in the Vietnam conflict, a bit crazy, and feeling right confident of the situation kindly asked for the kid to drop his knife and his driver's ID. He made a deal with the kid, "If I ever find that something of mine is stolen, or hear of anyone nearby losing some things, I am turning your ID in to the police. Now go back home to your momma." Thus far my insane gun nut uncle still has that ID and the knife over his fireplace in a jar. Now had my uncle not had the intimidation factor of that shotgun, he probably would have had to hurt the kid. After hearing the war stories he's told, I know that'd just break his heart.
As far as lights and dogs. The whole reason they work is because of the would-be criminal's fear of recourse. The person is not neccesarily afraid of lights and not neccesarily afraid of dogs, he's afraid someone might show up and cause him harm. If there's nothing behind the lights, dogs, locks, and alarms...can we say field day? I'm sure you agree with that to an extent, and would argue that if there's no one home a gun, knife, baseball bat doesn't really mean anything. I have to concede that point. It's always been my ideal that no matter what prevention systems you have in place, if the guy wants in...he's coming in. Whether or not he gets out, however, is up to the homeowner. If I had the chance I'd make non-lethal boobie traps for robbers. The idea strikes me as being so much fun.
Well as far as drugged up people, let's just say that if I find myself in a situation where I think my life is threatened enough to justify the act of drawing a gun, I'm not aiming to wound. Short of that, running feels like a really good option along with pepper spray or a nifty taser device.
Self-defense is some good stuff. I know a few peices of martial arts I've dabbled in, and have contended well with a marine friend of mine who has taught me a couple things. I can hold my own, and have done so a couple times. I feel knowlege of gun safety and proper usage is an important part of it as long as they exist anywhere in the world in any form. If all guns and knowlege of them were to suddenly dissapear, swords, bows, and crossbows would be next on the list. Fencing lessons and bow hunting, I'm covered there too. Fun stuff, really. Stuff everyone should learn.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this won't go anywhere of course. Despite the fact that we do have criminals here in Australia and yes, people do fall victim to crime, we manage to get by just fine with no guns! How come our prisons arn't filled to overflowing? How come we're not all cowering in our homes, knowing that we have no guns to defend ourselves? Like I've said, everyone in America has guns, <i>so why do you still have millions of cases of assault, robbery and theft</i>? Seems like those guns are really stopping all that crime.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crime is not caused by guns, or the lack of them. Target shooting as a recreational activity, when the weapon is handled with respect and knowlege harms no one, not even the shooter himself. Since guns exist, and can be gained by multiple means (however difficult) by the criminal element depite any laws against them it is folly to suddenly enforce such laws in a state that has known and worked with these items since it's creation. The weapons' avaliability to the public of this nation validates and allows the public to ensure the nation's constitution and purpose should things go terribly wrong.
Personally I'd love to see a comparison of violent crime rates between the US and Australia taking in account the 260 or so million more people in the US with which to cause crime. Not trying to make a point with this statement, I just want to see one....I'm too lazy to do the math, myself. College is about to restart in a few days and I'm enjoying this freedom while I can.
I'm glad to help. <a href='http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/ihavearightto/four_b/casestudy_art29.shtml' target='_blank'>BBC World Service</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In 2000, the FBI estimated that 66% of the 15,517 murders that year were committed with firearms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That means a little over 10 000 firearms murder/year. Population in the year 2000 was about 280 000 000, give or take a million(I calculated the earlier number with somewhat smaller population, now I checked it for sure.) This calculates in to 1 firearms murder/28 000 people.
I'm sorry about the Finland part. I really am. <a href='http://www.om.fi/haaste/18542.htm' target='_blank'>Our Ministry of Justice</a> only notes that there has been a slight decrease in murders and that we had 125 murders/death/kills( <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) in the year 2002. It's sad that they don't have any stats on these because I'm quite sure that our firearm murder % is a lot lower. Why I'm so sure? Because basically every single gun murder(actually most of the "normal" murders too) is reported all over the newspapers and I swear there's no more than 10 or 15 of those every year. My dads estimate: no more than 10. My brothers estimate: about a dozen. Even if I were as bold as to claim that there's 30 firearm murders every year, it would go no higher than 1 murder/170 000 people. Heck, let's go wild and say that all of those 125 were firearm related murders. Even that counts better than USA has, 1 firearm murder/40 000 people. Calculated with 15 murders/year(most accurate, maybe a bit too many imo), we get 1 murder/333333 people.
Edit: That means USA, firearms easy to obtain, has over 10 times more firearm murders than in Finland, where firearms are more difficult to get. We both have neighbours that are more than happy to smuggle guns.
Homicide rate per 100,000 population = 5. This is according to US DOJ statistics, not some newspaper (and it's in the DOJ's budget interest to actually overstate homicide stats). Even if everyone of these homicides was with a firearm (they weren't), you're still way off.
Maybe you need a new battery in your calculator <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ?
Homicide rate per 100,000 population = 5. This is accoring to us DOJ statistics, not some newspaper (and it's in the DOJ's budget interest to actually overstate homicide stats). Even if everyone of these homicides was with a firearm (they weren't), you're still way off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh, you didn't really concentrate on what I wrote. That 'some newspaper' was BBC that was quoting FBI estimates. I calculated all of that according to the original number 15,517 I got from there. I calculated 1murder/AMOUNT OF CITIZENS. Your page calculates it AMOUNT OF MURDERS/100 000. Hence the differing numbers. It doesn't matter on what scale you present it, it's the comparison between Finland and USA.
Your brains are...faulty. Maybe you need some more coffee <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: If you want me to convert the Finlands statistics to murders/100 000, the number would be 0.3, where as USA has 5. That means we still have 10 times less murders. Actually almost 17 times less. It seems that my previous numbers were WAY too gentle towards USA. Thanks for correcting that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit2: Uh, sorry. That 5 was all homicides. Well, with 66% of that firearm murders, we're back to the 10 times more forearm murders than in Finland. Your source is stating the same as mine.
I guess I lost track there in my race to slam you to the mat (your bizarre ratio <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) . My apologies, good sir. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And Uzi is partially correct: If you look at the actual breakdowns based on urbanization, race, economic conditions, etc. you see that crime factors follow the money. Your country is tiny, homogenous, and wealthy. Economic indicators are the number one reason for violent crime of any kind. Comparing it to Finland (or Australia, you wacky g'dayers) is simply not analogous. Get me stats on Russia or something similar and we'll talk more.
More info for you <a href='http://www.handgunfree.org/HFAMain/resources/datacenter/2001%20BJS%20Source%20Book/Violent%20Crime%20and%20Firearms%20Injuries%20Rates/Tables/average%20annual%20number%20and%20rate%20of%20fatal%20and%20nonfatal%20firearm-related%20injuries%20by%20intent%20and%20victim%20characteristics.pdf' target='_blank'>here</a>, <a href='http://www.handgunfree.org/HFAMain/resources/datacenter/2001%20BJS%20Source%20Book/Violent%20Crime%20and%20Firearms%20Injuries%20Rates/Tables/rate%20of%20violent%20crime,%20murder,%20and%20nonnegligent%20manslaughter%20by%20weapon%20and%20State.pdf' target='_blank'>here</a>, and <a href='http://www.handgunfree.org/HFAMain/resources/datacenter/2001%20BJS%20Source%20Book/Violent%20Crime%20and%20Firearms%20Injuries%20Rates/Tables/rate%20of%20robbery%20and%20aggravated%20assault%20by%20weapon%20and%20State.pdf' target='_blank'>here</a>.
UZiEight inches of C4 between the legs.Join Date: 2003-02-20Member: 13767Members
Another that was thrown at me
Myth:When handguns are in a home chances are 43 they are likely to kill someone
Fact: Of the 43 deaths reported in this flawed study, 37 (86%) were suicides. Other deaths involved criminal activity between the family members (drug deals gone bad).
Fact: Of the remaining deaths, the deceased family members include felons, drug dealers, violent spouses committing assault, and other criminal activities.1
1 Arthur L. Kellerman, Protection or Peril?: An Analysis of Firearm-Related Deaths in the Home, 314 New Eng. J. Med. 1557-60 1986. Kellerman admits that his study did "not include cases in which burglars or intruders are wounded or frightened away by the use or display of a firearm." He also admitted his study did not look at situations in which intruders "purposely avoided a home known to be armed." This is a classic case of a “study” conducted to achieve a desired result. In his critique of this “study”, Gary Kleck notes that the estimation of gun ownership rates were “inaccurate” , and that the total population came from a non-random selection of only two cities.
Code9Bored and running out of ammunition.Join Date: 2003-11-29Member: 23740Members
Ok. That's still subjective. I know someone who walked to his kitchen one night, and found an intruder on the way. Apparently he got "what are you doing in my house?!" out and was then stabbed in the gut. Come to think of it I haven't seen him around in a while. Would a gun have helped him? Maybe. Maybe not. Would it have helped ME in that situation? Very likely. And you are correct, someone robbing your house while you're not there probably won't be stopped by you having a gun on you someplace else, but I ASSUME (note: assume makes an **** out of U and ME.) that you took measures after the first TWO to at least make an attempt to prevent the third? Lights on, locked doors, dog, TV playing in a back room? A longarm like a rifle, shotgun, maybe a rubber/beanbag round first in the magazine, a phone line, a lockable door on your bedroom (to name a FEW) are simply measures against someone breaking in while you ARE at home, in the unlikely event.
AU-Scorpion is right on, lethal force should be the absolute LAST response, and a gun in my opinion *should* supplement, but by no means be the end-all solution.
(Though, what do you MEAN self defense classes...do you mean things like karate? I can hold my own sparring with a guy whose been doing karate pretty much as long as i've been shooting (IE: Birth), OR...something like a course from Front Sight? *heee*........and ditto on argueing with marine01 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 7 2004, 09:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 7 2004, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And Uzi is partially correct: If you look at the actual breakdowns based on urbanization, race, economic conditions, etc. you see that crime factors follow the money. Your country is tiny, homogenous, and wealthy. Economic indicators are the number one reason for violent crime of any kind. Comparing it to Finland (or Australia, you wacky g'dayers) is simply not analogous. Get me stats on Russia or something similar and we'll talk more. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haf, it seems that there is no way to prove that firearms don't prevent murders to you. You'll just come up with a new reason untill there's no one left to search around for the stats and compare them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Okay, I admit, there's other factors too but we can't really calculate them very effeciently. We need a wealthy country that has a lot of people compared to the landsize and tight gun-laws. Russia isn't a good comparison as it doesn't have high density of people, it's not as modern as USA and it has a lot of guns floating around.
Howabout Netherlands? It's ten times smaller and has three times more population compared to Finland? And if I've understood correctly, it has as strict gun laws as Finland and most of the other EU countries. Or Germany, it's a lot more densely populated than USA(ten times to be accurate, seems like ten is a magic number today <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->), is a modern wealthy nation, has less modern neighbours(for gun smugling) and has many different ethnic groups(less than USA but still many). Is Germany good enough for you? And don't go down that Bowling for Columbine road of "we got more bloody history", you know what you are going to get <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.research.ryerson.ca/SAFER-Net/regions/Europe/Ger_MH03.html' target='_blank'>Fine</a>. Germany had 0,20/100k Firearm homicides in the year 1995(couldn't find any newer info), as opposed to USA's 3-4/100k, it's not even remotely close. Actually, it's way better than the homogenous, tiny Finland has <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have a feeling you are not going to find a modern European nation that has strict gunlaws and yet bigger percentage of gun homocides. Give up, resistance is futile <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/archive/international/msg00010.html' target='_blank'>Btw, effects of the gun control in England</a>. Homicides went down as opposed to USA where they went up.
Edit: Cleared some up. I write weird stuff when I'm tired. Actually always write weird stuff but now...huh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Edit2: FFS, I'm not even making sense to myself. I really have to work with these posts before just pressing the submit button.
<!--QuoteBegin--UZi+Jan 7 2004, 03:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UZi @ Jan 7 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> pointing gun--->first responce <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Pointed gun = Lethal threat who better be willing to accept any consequences. Be they his/her own death, wounds inflicted upon him/her, wounds inflicted upon others and/or the death of another human being by his/her hand.
All other options should be weighed, before a gun or any possibly lethal device is a "first response."
I think when stats get thrown around the main message gets lost. I posted this in one of the other gun threds we had here a while back.
I agree with all the people who mentioned education as the only tolerable form of gun control.
There are countless professions in the United States that require the use of a firearm in the day to day routine. Police, Coast Guard, National Guard, FBI, ATF, NET, CIA, NSA, and many more. Those organizations employ hundreds of thousands of people, and they have a much lower "incident" (accedental or wreckless) rate with their firearms than the general population. The primary reason for that is Education, they are all highly trained in the proper use of their firearms and the CONSEQUENCES of discharging them.
If you remember, the only way that America got a grip on the aids epidemic was through a rigorous educational campaign. The religious right (primarily responsible for the majority of our "STOP GUNS NOW" nonsense) were also opposed to teaching kids about sex at schools, but eventually everyone realized the merit of sex education as a valid for of HIV and AIDS prevention.
If we incorporated the PROPER, SAFE and MORAL use of firearms into school educational programs we would eliminate the majority of our problems with guns.
So long as guns exist anywhere on the planet, they must be a part of our lives. For our protection, and the protection of the people in charge. If the people in charge know that the population is armed and can't be easily pushed around, they will be less tempted to do it.
Ahh, my favorite source for accurate gun control statistics, <a href='http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert' target='_blank'>http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert</a> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
You're right, there's no directly comparable country. And you keep trying to have homogenous wealthy ones after I specifically said find me one that has disparate economic, ethnic, urban, and other conditions like the USA. I'll wait. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Haf, it seems that there is no way to prove that firearms don't prevent murders to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And this right here is the overall problem with your theory - you don't have data on the murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, etc. <i>prevented</i> with firearms. It sort of slips off your radar. I can tell you this though - in Finland last year, it sounds like not one was prevented, because common citizens couldn't have one, only criminals. Plenty were still caused <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> . If you really think banning something will prevent it from being available, I call your attention to the ongoing war on drugs. Oh but I forgot, you want to legalize drugs so everyone can have them. XD
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 7 2004, 10:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 7 2004, 10:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ahh, my favorite source for accurate gun control statistics, <a href='http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert' target='_blank'>http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert</a> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Omg Monse! Don't you respect my newssources!? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're right, there's no directly comparable country. And you keep trying to have homogenous wealthy ones after I specifically said find me one that has disparate economic, ethnic, urban, and other conditions like the USA. I'll wait. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What, I should do all the work while you just lay back? Oh no, how about you try to find a proper country too, so we can compare it with USA. Or do you have a reason not to find one? Are you perhaps afraid that you are _wrong_ with your assumptions about guns doing more good than harm? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you really think banning something will prevent it from being available, I call your attention to the ongoing war on drugs. Oh but I forgot, you want to legalize drugs so everyone can have them. XD<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Low blow! Low blow! Even you said legalizing MJ would be good you H?bel you *shakes fist* However yes, IMO banning guns do lower the murder rates. I think that guns don't actually help preventing much on civilians. I mean it can work as a deterrent but if a criminal jumps you with a gun, you have little help of that gun in your pocket. And is it really better to risk your own and others lives just to hold on to your wallet? There's a big gap between murderer and robber. If you just act cool they wont hurt you. If you hear a robber, call the police and make noice. He wont run upstairs just to splatter your brains on the wall for no reason. Edit: Actually, do you have any evidence on guns preventing crimes? I would like to see them please <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm Dread Zeppelin, Good fight, good night! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What, I should do all the work while you just lay back? Oh no, how about you try to find a proper country too, so we can compare it with USA. Or do you have a reason not to find one? Are you perhaps afraid that you are _wrong_ with your assumptions about guns doing more good than harm?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, you opened the door of comparing countries. Now you get to do the legwork and close it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Low blow! Low blow! Even you said legalizing MJ would be good you H?bel you *shakes fist* However yes, IMO banning guns do lower the murder rates. I think that guns don't actually help preventing much on civilians. I mean it can work as a deterrent but if a criminal jumps you with a gun, you have little help of that gun in your pocket. And is it really better to risk your own and others lives just to hold on to your wallet? There's a big gap between murderer and robber. If you just act cool they wont hurt you. If you hear a robber, cool the police and make noice. He wont run upstairs just to splatter your brains on the wall for no reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You sir, have not lived in a state like North Carolina where concealed weapons are allowed. No one here gets mugged, trust me, as old ladies are packing heat. It's the wild west down in this part of the US. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And I've dealt with a burglar in my apartment, when I lived in Chicago. I chased him through a window and cut myself up pretty bad in the process of removing two of his teeth via the brick sill of my wall. He also got away, the wriggly little punk worm, although he dropped all my stuff during the face smashing process. With a gun I could have spared myself all the trouble, but in Chicago <i>they are illegal</i>. The same Chicago where there were 600 homicides this year, mostly with a firearm. Ooops, did that just cause a problem with the theory? America is a large, diverse, violent place; please stop comparing it to all your teeny euro disneylands...
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 7 2004, 11:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 7 2004, 11:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry, you opened the door of comparing countries. Now you get to do the legwork and close it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There just ain't place like USA. And that's not a compliment nor an insult. I would have to mix and match different attributes from different countries. I'll just finish this by saying: I'm right and you're wrong <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Actually Ryo opened it, I just gave another comparisons such as Finland and Germany, so it's all his fault <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I've dealt with a burglar in my apartment, when I lived in Chicago. I chased him through a window and cut myself up pretty bad in the process of removing two of his teeth via the brick sill of my wall. He also got away, the wriggly little punk worm, although he dropped all my stuff during the face smashing process. With a gun I could have spared myself all the trouble, but in Chicago <i>they are illegal</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just proved that one doesn't need a gun to protect his home, as burglars are wriggly little punk worms that run away some ancient pops like Monse and don't even carry guns <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The same Chicago where there were 600 homicides this year, mostly with a firearm. Ooops, did that just cause a problem with the theory?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noooo it didn't, as Chicago is prolly next to a state that does allow firearms and hence it's easy to smuggle them from state to state. You have to ban them everywhere. It's no good keeping them illegal in one or two states, because they easily spread to the criminals in those too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->America is a large, diverse, violent place...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't have to be <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> But hey, I'm just trying to help.
Edit: Meh -> off to sn00zor. For the next 10hours I can think I got the last word <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Jan 7 2004, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Jan 7 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The same Chicago where there were 600 homicides this year, mostly with a firearm. Ooops, did that just cause a problem with the theory?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noooo it didn't, as Chicago is prolly next to a state that does allow firearms and hence it's easy to smuggle them from state to state. You have to ban them everywhere. It's no good keeping them illegal in one or two states, because they easily spread to the criminals in those too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're saying with our completely open borders with Canada and Mexico (both legal there, mind you) that banning weapons would have any effect? How about when they are banned here and you now had to account for 300,000,000 firearms - you really think the criminals will give them all back? You can't go get weapons without probable cause in this country, so there's no way to search out the weapons that aren't in plain sight. It's too late - the europeans gave us guns and taught us to use them. Now deal with yet another result of your shortsightedness. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Teaching kids to wear condoms during sex is like telling someone if they are going to drive drunk to wear a seatbelt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I just don’t know how to properly respond to something like that. I suppose its much better to let them have uneducated unprotected sex and stick our heads in the sand pretending that everyone is a virgin until marriage and then only have sex to conceive children.
However, this thread is about gun control not fairy tale lands where people don’t have sex.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 8 2004, 08:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 8 2004, 08:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Be nice you two, I don't want to lock a pleasant, lively debate on account of O/T yelling. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> /hopes monse fails to see smarter or dumber thread...
My reply regarding Germany and Britian is on the way, but the eating of large amounts of humble pie is slowing my response time <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Code9Bored and running out of ammunition.Join Date: 2003-11-29Member: 23740Members
Yes, even if we ARE all being granite-headed <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> . We're somewhat polite about it though!!!
The only things i'm really waiting for when the AWB sunsets (btw Monse, have you screamed at your elected officials today? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) are the cheap 11+ rounders that are actually worth something, and the ability to put BOTH a pistol grip AND *gasp* a folding stock(!!! omg teh horrar!!!11`~one!!infinity) on my SLR-95, which I will probably never use anyway due to my plans to slap an optic on it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Jan 7 2004, 06:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Jan 7 2004, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> /hopes monse fails to see smarter or dumber thread...
My reply regarding Germany and Britian is on the way, but the eating of large amounts of humble pie is slowing my response time <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, it's being watched. Getting pretty close now. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Last year there were around 14,000 firearm-related deaths in the US, based on what I can find out from DOJ sources. There were also around 50,000 automobile-related deaths. Do you think we should:
A) Ban cars.
or
B) Try to work on improving vehicle safety, driver training, and driver licensing?
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 7 2004, 04:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 7 2004, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You sir, have not lived in a state like North Carolina where concealed weapons are allowed. No one here gets mugged, trust me, as old ladies are packing heat. It's the wild west down in this part of the US. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I've lived in Raleigh for about 8 years, and I don't think that's ever even come up. I had forgotten all about that. Other than a very few small gang-infested areas, it's pretty quiet, despite a fair number of handguns around (and the gangs don't exactly acquire their firearms legally).
I for one certainly do not feel less safe with so many weapons in the area.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 7 2004, 11:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 7 2004, 11:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you're saying with our completely open borders with Canada and Mexico (both legal there, mind you) that banning weapons would have any effect? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, here I had a huge gap in my knowledge about USA. I thought your borders aren't open and controlled like in any other normal country. Or did you mean something else? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about when they are banned here and you now had to account for 300,000,000 firearms - you really think the criminals will give them all back? You can't go get weapons without probable cause in this country, so there's no way to search out the weapons that aren't in plain sight. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to be a self-quoting monster...actually I don't, so here it goes <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteBegin--Dread+ Jan 7 2004, 06:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Jan 7 2004, 06:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However in the end, I don't believe banning weapons would work out so well in the USA. You already have so many weapons floating around that criminals would be still carrying them for decades. It would be a good start though. In the meanwhile you'll just have to do the smart thing: give your wallet and let the police handle it instead of going berserk with your glock.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's too late - the europeans gave us guns and taught us to use them. Now deal with yet another result of your shortsightedness. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you elaborate? Oh, and I'm sure Brits will make sure that if another continent will be found, the colonies won't be given any guns <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Your car comparison isn't viable as cars are required for transportation of people and things. Guns on the other hand are not nearly as necessary. But it's true, you yanks need to learn how to drive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: teh quotes <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 8 2004, 09:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 8 2004, 09:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And just to get back on topic:
Last year there were around 14,000 firearm-related deaths in the US, based on what I can find out from DOJ sources. There were also around 50,000 automobile-related deaths. Do you think we should:
A) Ban cars.
or
B) Try to work on improving vehicle safety, driver training, and driver licensing? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont feel that fair comparision between cars and guns can be made. A car is a large solid steel contraption specifically designed for transport.
A gun is a high velocity metal accelerator - designed and used for two things A) killing living creatures or for B) improving aim at targets. If you train for "improving aim" via option b, then the skills you are learning are basically how to do option A with more proficiency. Sure you dont have to, but thats the effect of your training, it makes killing things with your high velocity metal accelerator easier.
Unless people only keep cars to run down animals for sport, or take them to specially built "car runs" where the drivers practise ramming foam pedestrians or foam cars to get better at it - I dont feel that its a good analogy. If thats all cars were (sp?), then I'd say ban them. But they are not. They are for transport, and its (usually) only when accidents happen that people die from them. If the be all and end all of your life is shooting targets, then get an air rifle. Or a crossbow. But not a dedicated anti-personell weapon like a glock.
To further the car analogy, a glock is like a hummer. A hummer with spikes on the bullbar. And giant spinning swords mounted on the hubcaps. What is this thing good for? Scaring people, practising running them down in "car runs" and killing people/animals. Would I ban that puppy - YES!
I'm all for more advanced training for people in cars, but that cant be compared to a weapon. Say what you like about "target shooting" etc - I know what guns are meant for. The latest and greatest way of killing for the average human - a way to put your steel through something to disrupt its organs and kill it. Thats what guns are around for, thats why they were made originally, and thats the underlying point of guns. Kill things.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <i>Posted by Ryo-Ohki</i>
My family's house has been robbed 3 times. Each time this occured when we were out of the house for a few hours. Guess a gun would have really helped then wouldn't it? I have never personally been a victim of crime. No-one has tried to invade my house here in Brisbane. No-one has tried to mug me. No-one has tried to rob me. Why the heck would I need a gun? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't feel the need, you don't feel the need. I assume we gun owning american people aren't trying to force others to buy them.... are we? I didn't get the memo.
As far as things in the US of A, it's my thinking that regardless of the state of gun ownership, all people should be trained in gun safety. The things are out there and one might be in the hand of someone who does not care to own a gun, at some point. Might as well know how to safely remove the ammunition so it cannot be fired. If one ends up being pointed at a person, it would be nice to recognize the weapon and know it's strengths and limitations. This would give a chance for a more informed decision on whether to fight or submit given the situation. It would help save lives.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But it's not only that: no-one I know has been the victim of crime. Closest would be one of my friends who got into a knife-fight at a club. Should he have shot the guy instead? (they both survived with minor injuries btw, the cops broke it up). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most definitely not. The number one rule I learned about gun safety is not to use one if it can be avoided, it's just a basic concept of equal force. The number two rule was don't pull a gun unless you are willing to shoot to kill, immediately thereafter. More people are killed by their own guns than most care to imagine. Generally idiots that go for a Hollywood style "Ah, I've got you now" scene.
Besides I assume there were people at the club, hopefully bystanders in such situations will be quick enough to intervene before things get deadly with melee weapons. If there's a bar full of capable people and someone is stabbed to death right in front of them...the blood is on the bystanders hands just as much if not more so than on the killer's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just think that you Yanks are being paranoid. Home defense? Robbers arn't going to come into your house when you're there, it's too risky. Buy some security lights: the kind that light up when anyone comes near. That'll scare off any intruders no worries. Get a dog. It doesn't have to be trained to attack, all it has to do is bark. Going out on the streets? Take some pepper spray or a stun gun. *cue arguement that doped up criminals are going to ignore that* It is one hardcore criminal that takes pepper spray to the eyes and keeps coming. Any criminal that ignores that is going to ignore a bullet in his limbs. Go to some self-defense classes and learn how to defend yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have a tendancy to be paranoid. But then, it works just fine for us. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well I know people here in the US who have had their home robbed or had an attempted robbery while they were home. One involves a story from my Uncle. Apparently he parked around back one day, and was just about to get some shut-eye when he heard his window being busted in. Well turns out this "youngun" with nothing but a knife walked through a pitch-black room right into a shotgun leveled at his chest. Now my uncle being an ex-military vet in the Vietnam conflict, a bit crazy, and feeling right confident of the situation kindly asked for the kid to drop his knife and his driver's ID. He made a deal with the kid, "If I ever find that something of mine is stolen, or hear of anyone nearby losing some things, I am turning your ID in to the police. Now go back home to your momma." Thus far my insane gun nut uncle still has that ID and the knife over his fireplace in a jar. Now had my uncle not had the intimidation factor of that shotgun, he probably would have had to hurt the kid. After hearing the war stories he's told, I know that'd just break his heart.
As far as lights and dogs. The whole reason they work is because of the would-be criminal's fear of recourse. The person is not neccesarily afraid of lights and not neccesarily afraid of dogs, he's afraid someone might show up and cause him harm. If there's nothing behind the lights, dogs, locks, and alarms...can we say field day? I'm sure you agree with that to an extent, and would argue that if there's no one home a gun, knife, baseball bat doesn't really mean anything. I have to concede that point. It's always been my ideal that no matter what prevention systems you have in place, if the guy wants in...he's coming in. Whether or not he gets out, however, is up to the homeowner. If I had the chance I'd make non-lethal boobie traps for robbers. The idea strikes me as being so much fun.
Well as far as drugged up people, let's just say that if I find myself in a situation where I think my life is threatened enough to justify the act of drawing a gun, I'm not aiming to wound. Short of that, running feels like a really good option along with pepper spray or a nifty taser device.
Self-defense is some good stuff. I know a few peices of martial arts I've dabbled in, and have contended well with a marine friend of mine who has taught me a couple things. I can hold my own, and have done so a couple times. I feel knowlege of gun safety and proper usage is an important part of it as long as they exist anywhere in the world in any form. If all guns and knowlege of them were to suddenly dissapear, swords, bows, and crossbows would be next on the list. Fencing lessons and bow hunting, I'm covered there too. Fun stuff, really. Stuff everyone should learn.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this won't go anywhere of course. Despite the fact that we do have criminals here in Australia and yes, people do fall victim to crime, we manage to get by just fine with no guns! How come our prisons arn't filled to overflowing? How come we're not all cowering in our homes, knowing that we have no guns to defend ourselves? Like I've said, everyone in America has guns, <i>so why do you still have millions of cases of assault, robbery and theft</i>? Seems like those guns are really stopping all that crime.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crime is not caused by guns, or the lack of them. Target shooting as a recreational activity, when the weapon is handled with respect and knowlege harms no one, not even the shooter himself. Since guns exist, and can be gained by multiple means (however difficult) by the criminal element depite any laws against them it is folly to suddenly enforce such laws in a state that has known and worked with these items since it's creation. The weapons' avaliability to the public of this nation validates and allows the public to ensure the nation's constitution and purpose should things go terribly wrong.
Personally I'd love to see a comparison of violent crime rates between the US and Australia taking in account the 260 or so million more people in the US with which to cause crime. Not trying to make a point with this statement, I just want to see one....I'm too lazy to do the math, myself. College is about to restart in a few days and I'm enjoying this freedom while I can.
Edit: stuff blah
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In 2000, the FBI estimated that 66% of the 15,517 murders that year were committed with firearms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That means a little over 10 000 firearms murder/year. Population in the year 2000 was about 280 000 000, give or take a million(I calculated the earlier number with somewhat smaller population, now I checked it for sure.) This calculates in to 1 firearms murder/28 000 people.
I'm sorry about the Finland part. I really am. <a href='http://www.om.fi/haaste/18542.htm' target='_blank'>Our Ministry of Justice</a> only notes that there has been a slight decrease in murders and that we had 125 murders/death/kills( <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) in the year 2002. It's sad that they don't have any stats on these because I'm quite sure that our firearm murder % is a lot lower. Why I'm so sure? Because basically every single gun murder(actually most of the "normal" murders too) is reported all over the newspapers and I swear there's no more than 10 or 15 of those every year. My dads estimate: no more than 10. My brothers estimate: about a dozen. Even if I were as bold as to claim that there's 30 firearm murders every year, it would go no higher than 1 murder/170 000 people. Heck, let's go wild and say that all of those 125 were firearm related murders. Even that counts better than USA has, 1 firearm murder/40 000 people. Calculated with 15 murders/year(most accurate, maybe a bit too many imo), we get 1 murder/333333 people.
Edit: That means USA, firearms easy to obtain, has over 10 times more firearm murders than in Finland, where firearms are more difficult to get. We both have neighbours that are more than happy to smuggle guns.
<a href='http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm</a>
Homicide rate per 100,000 population = 5. This is according to US DOJ statistics, not some newspaper (and it's in the DOJ's budget interest to actually overstate homicide stats). Even if everyone of these homicides was with a firearm (they weren't), you're still way off.
Maybe you need a new battery in your calculator <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ?
edit: fixed aggregious typos from hell...
<a href='http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm</a>
Homicide rate per 100,000 population = 5. This is accoring to us DOJ statistics, not some newspaper (and it's in the DOJ's budget interest to actually overstate homicide stats). Even if everyone of these homicides was with a firearm (they weren't), you're still way off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, you didn't really concentrate on what I wrote. That 'some newspaper' was BBC that was quoting FBI estimates. I calculated all of that according to the original number 15,517 I got from there. I calculated 1murder/AMOUNT OF CITIZENS. Your page calculates it AMOUNT OF MURDERS/100 000. Hence the differing numbers. It doesn't matter on what scale you present it, it's the comparison between Finland and USA.
Your brains are...faulty. Maybe you need some more coffee <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: If you want me to convert the Finlands statistics to murders/100 000, the number would be 0.3, where as USA has 5. That means we still have 10 times less murders. Actually almost 17 times less. It seems that my previous numbers were WAY too gentle towards USA. Thanks for correcting that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit2: Uh, sorry. That 5 was all homicides. Well, with 66% of that firearm murders, we're back to the 10 times more forearm murders than in Finland. Your source is stating the same as mine.
And Uzi is partially correct: If you look at the actual breakdowns based on urbanization, race, economic conditions, etc. you see that crime factors follow the money. Your country is tiny, homogenous, and wealthy. Economic indicators are the number one reason for violent crime of any kind. Comparing it to Finland (or Australia, you wacky g'dayers) is simply not analogous. Get me stats on Russia or something similar and we'll talk more.
More info for you <a href='http://www.handgunfree.org/HFAMain/resources/datacenter/2001%20BJS%20Source%20Book/Violent%20Crime%20and%20Firearms%20Injuries%20Rates/Tables/average%20annual%20number%20and%20rate%20of%20fatal%20and%20nonfatal%20firearm-related%20injuries%20by%20intent%20and%20victim%20characteristics.pdf' target='_blank'>here</a>, <a href='http://www.handgunfree.org/HFAMain/resources/datacenter/2001%20BJS%20Source%20Book/Violent%20Crime%20and%20Firearms%20Injuries%20Rates/Tables/rate%20of%20violent%20crime,%20murder,%20and%20nonnegligent%20manslaughter%20by%20weapon%20and%20State.pdf' target='_blank'>here</a>, and <a href='http://www.handgunfree.org/HFAMain/resources/datacenter/2001%20BJS%20Source%20Book/Violent%20Crime%20and%20Firearms%20Injuries%20Rates/Tables/rate%20of%20robbery%20and%20aggravated%20assault%20by%20weapon%20and%20State.pdf' target='_blank'>here</a>.
Myth:When handguns are in a home chances are 43 they are likely to kill someone
Fact: Of the 43 deaths reported in this flawed study, 37 (86%) were suicides. Other deaths
involved criminal activity between the family members (drug deals gone bad).
Fact: Of the remaining deaths, the deceased family members include felons, drug dealers,
violent spouses committing assault, and other criminal activities.1
1 Arthur L. Kellerman, Protection or Peril?: An Analysis of Firearm-Related Deaths in the Home, 314 New Eng. J.
Med. 1557-60 1986. Kellerman admits that his study did "not include cases in which burglars or intruders are
wounded or frightened away by the use or display of a firearm." He also admitted his study did not look at situations
in which intruders "purposely avoided a home known to be armed." This is a classic case of a “study” conducted to
achieve a desired result. In his critique of this “study”, Gary Kleck notes that the estimation of gun ownership rates
were “inaccurate” , and that the total population came from a non-random selection of only two cities.
AU-Scorpion is right on, lethal force should be the absolute LAST response, and a gun in my opinion *should* supplement, but by no means be the end-all solution.
(Though, what do you MEAN self defense classes...do you mean things like karate? I can hold my own sparring with a guy whose been doing karate pretty much as long as i've been shooting (IE: Birth), OR...something like a course from Front Sight? *heee*........and ditto on argueing with marine01 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Haf, it seems that there is no way to prove that firearms don't prevent murders to you. You'll just come up with a new reason untill there's no one left to search around for the stats and compare them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Okay, I admit, there's other factors too but we can't really calculate them very effeciently. We need a wealthy country that has a lot of people compared to the landsize and tight gun-laws. Russia isn't a good comparison as it doesn't have high density of people, it's not as modern as USA and it has a lot of guns floating around.
Howabout Netherlands? It's ten times smaller and has three times more population compared to Finland? And if I've understood correctly, it has as strict gun laws as Finland and most of the other EU countries. Or Germany, it's a lot more densely populated than USA(ten times to be accurate, seems like ten is a magic number today <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->), is a modern wealthy nation, has less modern neighbours(for gun smugling) and has many different ethnic groups(less than USA but still many). Is Germany good enough for you? And don't go down that Bowling for Columbine road of "we got more bloody history", you know what you are going to get <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.research.ryerson.ca/SAFER-Net/regions/Europe/Ger_MH03.html' target='_blank'>Fine</a>. Germany had 0,20/100k Firearm homicides in the year 1995(couldn't find any newer info), as opposed to USA's 3-4/100k, it's not even remotely close. Actually, it's way better than the homogenous, tiny Finland has <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have a feeling you are not going to find a modern European nation that has strict gunlaws and yet bigger percentage of gun homocides. Give up, resistance is futile <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/archive/international/msg00010.html' target='_blank'>Btw, effects of the gun control in England</a>. Homicides went down as opposed to USA where they went up.
Edit: Cleared some up. I write weird stuff when I'm tired. Actually always write weird stuff but now...huh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit2: FFS, I'm not even making sense to myself. I really have to work with these posts before just pressing the submit button.
Pointed gun = Lethal threat who better be willing to accept any consequences. Be they his/her own death, wounds inflicted upon him/her, wounds inflicted upon others and/or the death of another human being by his/her hand.
All other options should be weighed, before a gun or any possibly lethal device is a "first response."
I agree with all the people who mentioned education as the only tolerable form of gun control.
There are countless professions in the United States that require the use of a firearm in the day to day routine. Police, Coast Guard, National Guard, FBI, ATF, NET, CIA, NSA, and many more. Those organizations employ hundreds of thousands of people, and they have a much lower "incident" (accedental or wreckless) rate with their firearms than the general population. The primary reason for that is Education, they are all highly trained in the proper use of their firearms and the CONSEQUENCES of discharging them.
If you remember, the only way that America got a grip on the aids epidemic was through a rigorous educational campaign. The religious right (primarily responsible for the majority of our "STOP GUNS NOW" nonsense) were also opposed to teaching kids about sex at schools, but eventually everyone realized the merit of sex education as a valid for of HIV and AIDS prevention.
If we incorporated the PROPER, SAFE and MORAL use of firearms into school educational programs we would eliminate the majority of our problems with guns.
So long as guns exist anywhere on the planet, they must be a part of our lives. For our protection, and the protection of the people in charge. If the people in charge know that the population is armed and can't be easily pushed around, they will be less tempted to do it.
You're right, there's no directly comparable country. And you keep trying to have homogenous wealthy ones after I specifically said find me one that has disparate economic, ethnic, urban, and other conditions like the USA. I'll wait. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Haf, it seems that there is no way to prove that firearms don't prevent murders to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this right here is the overall problem with your theory - you don't have data on the murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, etc. <i>prevented</i> with firearms. It sort of slips off your radar. I can tell you this though - in Finland last year, it sounds like not one was prevented, because common citizens couldn't have one, only criminals. Plenty were still caused <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> . If you really think banning something will prevent it from being available, I call your attention to the ongoing war on drugs. Oh but I forgot, you want to legalize drugs so everyone can have them. XD
Teaching kids to wear condoms during sex is like telling someone if they are going to drive drunk to wear a seatbelt.
Omg Monse! Don't you respect my newssources!? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're right, there's no directly comparable country. And you keep trying to have homogenous wealthy ones after I specifically said find me one that has disparate economic, ethnic, urban, and other conditions like the USA. I'll wait. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What, I should do all the work while you just lay back? Oh no, how about you try to find a proper country too, so we can compare it with USA. Or do you have a reason not to find one? Are you perhaps afraid that you are _wrong_ with your assumptions about guns doing more good than harm? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you really think banning something will prevent it from being available, I call your attention to the ongoing war on drugs. Oh but I forgot, you want to legalize drugs so everyone can have them. XD<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Low blow! Low blow! Even you said legalizing MJ would be good you H?bel you *shakes fist* However yes, IMO banning guns do lower the murder rates. I think that guns don't actually help preventing much on civilians. I mean it can work as a deterrent but if a criminal jumps you with a gun, you have little help of that gun in your pocket. And is it really better to risk your own and others lives just to hold on to your wallet? There's a big gap between murderer and robber. If you just act cool they wont hurt you. If you hear a robber, call the police and make noice. He wont run upstairs just to splatter your brains on the wall for no reason. Edit: Actually, do you have any evidence on guns preventing crimes? I would like to see them please <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm Dread Zeppelin, Good fight, good night! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sorry, you opened the door of comparing countries. Now you get to do the legwork and close it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Low blow! Low blow! Even you said legalizing MJ would be good you H?bel you *shakes fist* However yes, IMO banning guns do lower the murder rates. I think that guns don't actually help preventing much on civilians. I mean it can work as a deterrent but if a criminal jumps you with a gun, you have little help of that gun in your pocket. And is it really better to risk your own and others lives just to hold on to your wallet? There's a big gap between murderer and robber. If you just act cool they wont hurt you. If you hear a robber, cool the police and make noice. He wont run upstairs just to splatter your brains on the wall for no reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sir, have not lived in a state like North Carolina where concealed weapons are allowed. No one here gets mugged, trust me, as old ladies are packing heat. It's the wild west down in this part of the US. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And I've dealt with a burglar in my apartment, when I lived in Chicago. I chased him through a window and cut myself up pretty bad in the process of removing two of his teeth via the brick sill of my wall. He also got away, the wriggly little punk worm, although he dropped all my stuff during the face smashing process. With a gun I could have spared myself all the trouble, but in Chicago <i>they are illegal</i>. The same Chicago where there were 600 homicides this year, mostly with a firearm. Ooops, did that just cause a problem with the theory? America is a large, diverse, violent place; please stop comparing it to all your teeny euro disneylands...
There just ain't place like USA. And that's not a compliment nor an insult. I would have to mix and match different attributes from different countries. I'll just finish this by saying: I'm right and you're wrong <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Actually Ryo opened it, I just gave another comparisons such as Finland and Germany, so it's all his fault <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I've dealt with a burglar in my apartment, when I lived in Chicago. I chased him through a window and cut myself up pretty bad in the process of removing two of his teeth via the brick sill of my wall. He also got away, the wriggly little punk worm, although he dropped all my stuff during the face smashing process. With a gun I could have spared myself all the trouble, but in Chicago <i>they are illegal</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just proved that one doesn't need a gun to protect his home, as burglars are wriggly little punk worms that run away some ancient pops like Monse and don't even carry guns <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The same Chicago where there were 600 homicides this year, mostly with a firearm. Ooops, did that just cause a problem with the theory?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noooo it didn't, as Chicago is prolly next to a state that does allow firearms and hence it's easy to smuggle them from state to state. You have to ban them everywhere. It's no good keeping them illegal in one or two states, because they easily spread to the criminals in those too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->America is a large, diverse, violent place...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't have to be <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> But hey, I'm just trying to help.
Edit: Meh -> off to sn00zor. For the next 10hours I can think I got the last word <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Noooo it didn't, as Chicago is prolly next to a state that does allow firearms and hence it's easy to smuggle them from state to state. You have to ban them everywhere. It's no good keeping them illegal in one or two states, because they easily spread to the criminals in those too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're saying with our completely open borders with Canada and Mexico (both legal there, mind you) that banning weapons would have any effect? How about when they are banned here and you now had to account for 300,000,000 firearms - you really think the criminals will give them all back? You can't go get weapons without probable cause in this country, so there's no way to search out the weapons that aren't in plain sight. It's too late - the europeans gave us guns and taught us to use them. Now deal with yet another result of your shortsightedness. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Teaching kids to wear condoms during sex is like telling someone if they are going to drive drunk to wear a seatbelt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just don’t know how to properly respond to something like that. I suppose its much better to let them have uneducated unprotected sex and stick our heads in the sand pretending that everyone is a virgin until marriage and then only have sex to conceive children.
However, this thread is about gun control not fairy tale lands where people don’t have sex.
/hopes monse fails to see smarter or dumber thread...
My reply regarding Germany and Britian is on the way, but the eating of large amounts of humble pie is slowing my response time <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only things i'm really waiting for when the AWB sunsets (btw Monse, have you screamed at your elected officials today? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) are the cheap 11+ rounders that are actually worth something, and the ability to put BOTH a pistol grip AND *gasp* a folding stock(!!! omg teh horrar!!!11`~one!!infinity) on my SLR-95, which I will probably never use anyway due to my plans to slap an optic on it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
My reply regarding Germany and Britian is on the way, but the eating of large amounts of humble pie is slowing my response time <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, it's being watched. Getting pretty close now. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Humble pie over what?
Last year there were around 14,000 firearm-related deaths in the US, based on what I can find out from DOJ sources. There were also around 50,000 automobile-related deaths. Do you think we should:
A) Ban cars.
or
B) Try to work on improving vehicle safety, driver training, and driver licensing?
Actually, I've lived in Raleigh for about 8 years, and I don't think that's ever even come up. I had forgotten all about that. Other than a very few small gang-infested areas, it's pretty quiet, despite a fair number of handguns around (and the gangs don't exactly acquire their firearms legally).
I for one certainly do not feel less safe with so many weapons in the area.
Ok, here I had a huge gap in my knowledge about USA. I thought your borders aren't open and controlled like in any other normal country. Or did you mean something else? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about when they are banned here and you now had to account for 300,000,000 firearms - you really think the criminals will give them all back? You can't go get weapons without probable cause in this country, so there's no way to search out the weapons that aren't in plain sight. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to be a self-quoting monster...actually I don't, so here it goes <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+ Jan 7 2004, 06:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Jan 7 2004, 06:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However in the end, I don't believe banning weapons would work out so well in the USA. You already have so many weapons floating around that criminals would be still carrying them for decades. It would be a good start though. In the meanwhile you'll just have to do the smart thing: give your wallet and let the police handle it instead of going berserk with your glock.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's too late - the europeans gave us guns and taught us to use them. Now deal with yet another result of your shortsightedness. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you elaborate? Oh, and I'm sure Brits will make sure that if another continent will be found, the colonies won't be given any guns <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Your car comparison isn't viable as cars are required for transportation of people and things. Guns on the other hand are not nearly as necessary. But it's true, you yanks need to learn how to drive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: teh quotes <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Last year there were around 14,000 firearm-related deaths in the US, based on what I can find out from DOJ sources. There were also around 50,000 automobile-related deaths. Do you think we should:
A) Ban cars.
or
B) Try to work on improving vehicle safety, driver training, and driver licensing? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont feel that fair comparision between cars and guns can be made. A car is a large solid steel contraption specifically designed for transport.
A gun is a high velocity metal accelerator - designed and used for two things A) killing living creatures or for B) improving aim at targets. If you train for "improving aim" via option b, then the skills you are learning are basically how to do option A with more proficiency. Sure you dont have to, but thats the effect of your training, it makes killing things with your high velocity metal accelerator easier.
Unless people only keep cars to run down animals for sport, or take them to specially built "car runs" where the drivers practise ramming foam pedestrians or foam cars to get better at it - I dont feel that its a good analogy. If thats all cars were (sp?), then I'd say ban them. But they are not. They are for transport, and its (usually) only when accidents happen that people die from them. If the be all and end all of your life is shooting targets, then get an air rifle. Or a crossbow. But not a dedicated anti-personell weapon like a glock.
To further the car analogy, a glock is like a hummer. A hummer with spikes on the bullbar. And giant spinning swords mounted on the hubcaps. What is this thing good for? Scaring people, practising running them down in "car runs" and killing people/animals. Would I ban that puppy - YES!
I'm all for more advanced training for people in cars, but that cant be compared to a weapon. Say what you like about "target shooting" etc - I know what guns are meant for. The latest and greatest way of killing for the average human - a way to put your steel through something to disrupt its organs and kill it. Thats what guns are around for, thats why they were made originally, and thats the underlying point of guns. Kill things.