It angers me that someone who's spent their entire life depriving others of their "rights" should be given rights in the end. But we will- and that's good. We hold ourselves to a higher standard.
He deserves to have a good, honest, fair trial. Then a proper hanging.
If I had to say, I'd think Saddam more threatened alot of people into attacking. I'm sure alot of people still fear him, and a threat to your family would easily make you go shoot some Coalition forces.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think it would be a nice baptism by fire for the Iraqi court systems because lets be honost here...ANY country that tries him will find him guilty of killing countless people, if they don't then THAT wasn't a fiar trail either...Was it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I'm sure it would be nice for the Iraqi courts to do it. But it just won't look right; people will say that the courts will be biased (and they probably would be). If you try Saddam in an international court, you minimise the chance of bias and give the guy the right to a fair and honest trial. Sure, he didn't extend that courtesy to many of his own people, but if we're gonna put the guy on trial, we might as well do it properly and in full accordance with the law. As has been said, there's no chance of Saddam being innocent, so there's no reason for the US or the Iraqis to fret about Saddam escaping justice.
Yeah, uh, tell that to 300,000 Iraqi unmarked graves. The line of volunteers from Iraq for the firing squad will stretch from Baghdad to the moon. There's no need for teh US to do anything, the Iraqi's can offer about 20,000,000 eye witnesses to his crimes since 1968 and will be popping caps in him shortly, I reckon. Good riddance to a filthy, torturing, mass murdering, hedonist, Kurd-gassing scumbag - he deserves nothing but a bullet in the brain.
Like I said, go tell that to the Iraqi's, Cronos. It will be their trial, not the US's. They are not as likely to see it as dispassionately as you do, as they've lived under him.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Dec 14 2003, 09:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Dec 14 2003, 09:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And thats the response I was expecting.
The quest for blood, for revenge does not ever end violence. It only immortalises it, continues it, spreads it.
He deprived people of their rights, but that does not give us the right to deprive him of his rights. No matter what his crimes are.
<i>Killing Saddamn Will Not Fix the Problems of Iraq. It will only perpetuate them.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Two words: Karma Loop.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Dec 14 2003, 10:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Dec 14 2003, 10:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just because I'm thinking with my head and not my heart does not make me disspationate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right. It makes you <b>dispassionate</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Dec 14 2003, 09:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 14 2003, 09:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...he deserves nothing but a bullet in the brain. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think being locked away would be far worse for Saddam. Let's face it, executing him would be pretty merciful. Forcing him to live and brood about how it turned out would be a much more fitting fate.
Excuse me, but why do you assume the international court will be impartial? They already deemed saddams atrocities not worthy of action. Or they'd already be over there. It's takes pretty big balls for them to stand back, let the US and it's allies shed OUR blood, and then demand equal if not more than equal say in the end.
Personally I feel that Saddam is scum, he should burn and rot in hell and have a pineapple shoved up his posterior in said hell for eternity.
Since everyone seems to be taking that stance, I'm playing devils advocate. Therefore, my ARGUMENTS are disspationate because they are products of my mind, and not my heart.
I didn't think of handing him to the Iraqi law system like that actually before you raised it. It probably would be like throwing a sheep straight into the middle of starving dogs.
Really though, in all honestly nobody anywhere in the world would really be able to give him a fair trial. I suppose he can get a fairer one outside of Iraq, but I still view it important, even if the trial may not be as unbiased as we'd like, that he is tried in Iraq and not elsewhere. It will be seen as giving power back to the Iraqi people, which I feel is extremely important.
<!--QuoteBegin--Burncycle+Dec 14 2003, 02:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burncycle @ Dec 14 2003, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Excuse me, but why do you assume the international court will be impartial? They already deemed saddams atrocities not worthy of action. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As opposed to an Iraqi court...
And I'm telling you the international courts are not neutral or impartial. Especially since this would mean that only the countries that refused to do anything about saddams atrocities are going to be the ones who are judging him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In most cases, the charge for murder is life imprisonment, in the worst cases without parole.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're talking about an area where there are countries who blame the girl if a girl gets raped.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->@ Burn - Even if the international courts arent completely impartial, they are MORE impartial then an Iraqi court will ever be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree.
The court should be tribunal: One judge being a representative of the Iraqi people, one judge a representitive of the US and active coalition, and one judge being representitive of the UN (who represents the "international" community)
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Dec 14 2003, 10:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Dec 14 2003, 10:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Therefore, my ARGUMENTS are disspationate because they are products of my mind, and not my heart.
Capishe? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope, I don't capishe. I still have no idea what 'disspationate' means. If you meant dispassionate though, I savvy you just fine. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And why would it be wrong for Saddam's own country to try him? There's no reason to involve the Hague or US or anyone - let the Iraqi's decide for themselves what he deserves. They need to get used to running their own show, here's a good opportunity. Just because you don't like the fact that the Iraqi's will surely execute him (and he better hope he stays in US custody up until that point, as he taught them all about torture for 30 years), doesn't mean that he doesn't get a fair trial. Although I'm not sure how the trial could last longer than 15 minutes, as he liked to show off his crimes even more than the Nuremburg gang...
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Dec 15 2003, 01:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Dec 15 2003, 01:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @ Infinitum - No problems, lets kill him and hand over yet more martyrs to the likes of Al-qaeda... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Like it matters whether they have 'yet another martyr'. It's irrelevant. If the Al-qaeda wants to attack, they will attack regardless of whether or not they get 'yet another martyr'.
So killing him will make little to no difference ('Yet another reason') in the movements of the Al-qaeda.
Ahhh Monseh <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Sif pick on my typos and blatant spelling errors <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The way I see it... Hrmmm, Heres an example.
A man is murdered. His son grows up with the pain of being fatherless. Then, one day, he finds out that one of his co workers is the person that murdered his father.
To my thinking, handing saddam over to the Iraqis would be like letting the son take any course of "Justice" he wants.
The question is whether that person is dispensing justice, or raw revenge.
It is inevitable that he will be found guilty, I make no trifle with that. An international medium will dispense justice, the Iraqis, as much as they have suffered, will only give out revenge.
{edit}
@ Infinitum - Fair enough they have plenty of reasons to attack, but it still bolsters their morale, sympathisers etc. Your only feeding the hydra.
And per Nem's wishes, let's rejoin this over in Discussion. You have to follow the rules in there though, so read the FAQ if you're unsure of what those are.
Comments
It angers me that someone who's spent their entire life depriving others of their "rights" should be given rights in the end. But we will- and that's good. We hold ourselves to a higher standard.
He deserves to have a good, honest, fair trial. Then a proper hanging.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I'm sure it would be nice for the Iraqi courts to do it. But it just won't look right; people will say that the courts will be biased (and they probably would be). If you try Saddam in an international court, you minimise the chance of bias and give the guy the right to a fair and honest trial. Sure, he didn't extend that courtesy to many of his own people, but if we're gonna put the guy on trial, we might as well do it properly and in full accordance with the law. As has been said, there's no chance of Saddam being innocent, so there's no reason for the US or the Iraqis to fret about Saddam escaping justice.
The quest for blood, for revenge does not ever end violence. It only immortalises it, continues it, spreads it.
He deprived people of their rights, but that does not give us the right to deprive him of his rights. No matter what his crimes are.
<i>Killing Saddamn Will Not Fix the Problems of Iraq. It will only perpetuate them.</i>
Edit -
"Trial" is not spelt like "Trail"
The quest for blood, for revenge does not ever end violence. It only immortalises it, continues it, spreads it.
He deprived people of their rights, but that does not give us the right to deprive him of his rights. No matter what his crimes are.
<i>Killing Saddamn Will Not Fix the Problems of Iraq. It will only perpetuate them.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two words:
Karma Loop.
In every democratic country, when a man is put on trial for a crime, the judge, or the jury is impartial.
Impartiality means that they have no vested interest in seeing him found guilty or innocent.
In all likelihood he will be found guilty, but giving him over to the Iraqi justice system would be like throwing him to the wolves.
He deserves a fair trial. That is what I am asserting. I make no claim in his guilt or innocence. In my point of view, he deserves a fair trial.
{Edit}
To above, Karma?
You're right. It makes you <b>dispassionate</b>.
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think being locked away would be far worse for Saddam. Let's face it, executing him would be pretty merciful. Forcing him to live and brood about how it turned out would be a much more fitting fate.
I am arguing with my MIND.
Personally I feel that Saddam is scum, he should burn and rot in hell and have a pineapple shoved up his posterior in said hell for eternity.
Since everyone seems to be taking that stance, I'm playing devils advocate. Therefore, my ARGUMENTS are disspationate because they are products of my mind, and not my heart.
Capishe?
Really though, in all honestly nobody anywhere in the world would really be able to give him a fair trial. I suppose he can get a fairer one outside of Iraq, but I still view it important, even if the trial may not be as unbiased as we'd like, that he is tried in Iraq and not elsewhere. It will be seen as giving power back to the Iraqi people, which I feel is extremely important.
As opposed to an Iraqi court...
Judge: "GUILTY!"
Drill Sergent: "FIRE!"
Saddam: "Oh Noes!"
So your biased country is ok, but my biased country isn't? Mkay.
I said NEUTRAL, IMPARTIAL, etc. My country is part of the coalition, and therefore could never give a NEUTRAL and IMPARTIAL trial.
I think I've mentioned the Hague and Geneva somewhere in my posts.
Dont put words into my mouth.
{Edit}
The law in Texas and a few other US states. The death penalty usually does not exist in most other countries that practice an ethical legal system.
In most cases, the charge for murder is life imprisonment, in the worst cases without parole.
In the highly likely case that saddam is found guilty, I wouldnt expect less the 3,000 years imprisonment...
It doesn't matter what country you hold the trial in, he's guilty.
Just kill him and get it over with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In most cases, the charge for murder is life imprisonment, in the worst cases without parole.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're talking about an area where there are countries who blame the girl if a girl gets raped.
@ Infinitum - No problems, lets kill him and hand over yet more martyrs to the likes of Al-qaeda...
<img src='http://magusds.homestead.com/files/pics/saddam.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://www.pixelate.us/spooky42/inc/saddam-qe.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://members.lycos.co.uk/pabrian1403/saddamsanta.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
I disagree.
The court should be tribunal: One judge being a representative of the Iraqi people, one judge a representitive of the US and active coalition, and one judge being representitive of the UN (who represents the "international" community)
Capishe? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, I don't capishe. I still have no idea what 'disspationate' means. If you meant dispassionate though, I savvy you just fine. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And why would it be wrong for Saddam's own country to try him? There's no reason to involve the Hague or US or anyone - let the Iraqi's decide for themselves what he deserves. They need to get used to running their own show, here's a good opportunity. Just because you don't like the fact that the Iraqi's will surely execute him (and he better hope he stays in US custody up until that point, as he taught them all about torture for 30 years), doesn't mean that he doesn't get a fair trial. Although I'm not sure how the trial could last longer than 15 minutes, as he liked to show off his crimes even more than the Nuremburg gang...
Like it matters whether they have 'yet another martyr'.
It's irrelevant.
If the Al-qaeda wants to attack, they will attack regardless of whether or not they get 'yet another martyr'.
So killing him will make little to no difference ('Yet another reason') in the movements of the Al-qaeda.
The way I see it... Hrmmm, Heres an example.
A man is murdered. His son grows up with the pain of being fatherless. Then, one day, he finds out that one of his co workers is the person that murdered his father.
To my thinking, handing saddam over to the Iraqis would be like letting the son take any course of "Justice" he wants.
The question is whether that person is dispensing justice, or raw revenge.
It is inevitable that he will be found guilty, I make no trifle with that. An international medium will dispense justice, the Iraqis, as much as they have suffered, will only give out revenge.
{edit}
@ Infinitum - Fair enough they have plenty of reasons to attack, but it still bolsters their morale, sympathisers etc. Your only feeding the hydra.