Non-vet, Pt, And Constellation...
Xiile
Join Date: 2003-02-22 Member: 13818Members
Join Date: 2003-02-22 Member: 13818Members
<div class="IPBDescription">PLEASE STOP POSTING ABOUT 3.0 BALANCE</div> Again, I am starting to get seriously ticked off by all of these topics saying '3.0b is unbalanced because the onos is so powerful!' or '3.0b is unbalanced because 'X' can kill 'Y'' or any of that. Seriously, please do not post about 3.0 balance. It seems every day I come on here there is a forum topic about 3.0 balance made by someone not actually playtesting. If you don't know by now, the order of playtesting laid out is Bug Fixes THEN Balance. I know the current build has a few Balance fixes but as far as I know were still mainly in the Bug Fixing stage. If you want to help with the balance, join the Constellation. Then when you do that, post in the Vet/CM forum about balance, or something.
And if you're a non-Vet, PT, and Constellation and reading this, YOU DONT KNOW UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY TRY.
That is all.
[/rant]
I know I'll probably get uber-flamed for this topic too, so I already have my flame-retardant suit on.
And if you're a non-Vet, PT, and Constellation and reading this, YOU DONT KNOW UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY TRY.
That is all.
[/rant]
I know I'll probably get uber-flamed for this topic too, so I already have my flame-retardant suit on.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I'd agree. I actually have decided that I prefer not knowing what each change is just so I don't get any hasty ideas of what the game might be like. I'll just let it all be a nice funny shock.
The build is so new that tactics and play patterns are changing constantly. The game may be balanced already and we are just not used to it yet. Just rest assured it will be balanced.
Plus, it's just irritating that build after build, the marines get more and more hard counters that even a one-armed man with 2 fingers could use, while the aliens get more and more goofy, ****, limited things added.
Anyway - It's my opinion that this is exactly why Flayra brought so many testers in this time - to assure that 3.0 is an awesome and balanced release.
I know that there is a GOOD amount of playtesting going on so I believe that you'll have a great time with 3.0 when it's done.
isnt this why 3.0 is going under such rigorous testing?? to avoid what happened in 2.0's release? And who really cares what balance issues are prevelant in a beta version of a game. Its in beta to make the changes needed before release, so......... any real balance issues will be solved before its released, so you'll never see the balance problems that occur during testing....... yes, we all know abou the problems 2.0 experienced even after release, but this has already been acknowledged and addressed.
Plus, it's just irritating that build after build, the marines get more and more hard counters that even a one-armed man with 2 fingers could use, while the aliens get more and more goofy, ****, limited things added. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is <b>exactly</b> the sort of thing that he wa asking you not to do.
3.0 is in BETA TESTING. Ofcourse it will be unbalanced. Ofcourse the marines will get loads of overpowered new toys. The aliens had thier fun in 2.0.
Just let the devs do thier job and quit complaining about something you know nothing about.
(thats our job)
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
From WordNet (r) 2.0 :
beta test
n : (computer science) a second test of an experimental product
(such as computer software) carried out by an outside
organization
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
'nuff said.
Pubs like big games, and clans should just recruit more members, as the maps are big, so the the more, the merrier. I'm tired of of pretty much knowing that aliens dominate small games, but marines annilate in large games. Unless the res model is changed so that amount of players is not a variable, balance it for an ideal game 10 vs 10 or so, and be done with it.
It's stupid balancing the game for such small teams, 7vs7 or so, when the vast majority of games played, pubs, are played with much bigger teams.
And just because there are a million threads doesn't mean this idea should be buried. Either that, or make 2 ns, pub version, and scrim version. The only difference would be that scrim version res nodes would have a different equation to balance them with fewer people, oh and friendly fire.
And just because there are a million threads doesn't mean this idea should be buried. Either that, or make 2 ns, pub version, and scrim version. The only difference would be that scrim version res nodes would have a different equation to balance them with fewer people, oh and friendly fire. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really enjoy how youre hijacking my topic.
And just because there are a million threads doesn't mean this idea should be buried. Either that, or make 2 ns, pub version, and scrim version. The only difference would be that scrim version res nodes would have a different equation to balance them with fewer people, oh and friendly fire. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't disagreeing with you and you've been here since March, not THAT late <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I couldn't say whether Flayra does or not, seeing as how I've never met the guy. But, if I was put in his position, I'm not sure whether I would regard the pub players who post here as a good indicator of what works and what doesn't. Let's face it, people don't know how well feature x will work if they haven't played it - opinion alone <i>isn't </i>a good enough reason to exclude something. I'm happy to leave Flayra to evolving NS, as opposed to letting it stagnate.
That's the size of servers we're testing on.
Ironic that.
Good times though, good times. Seeing threads like this sure brings back memories. I doubt that the onos is overpowered however myself, probably because with fixed hitboxes it's going to be a massive target. You'd have to be drunk or something to miss it now.
I myself see little point in partaking in balance discussions, because the game is meant to be a beta and actively worked on anyway. So I don't really worry, especially with how quickly Flayra reacted to common complaints like onos devour cheese (which incidently, was discussed by non PT before 2.0s released, and indeed was as annoying as predicted). I have faith in Flayra really, when balance problems DO arise, I just trust he'll fix them.
I guess some thing never change. I venture out of the OT forum to see a post about balance (one way or another). Oh well. Bye.
I guess some thing never change. I venture out of the OT forum to see a post about balance (one way or another). Oh well. Bye. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, this isn't half as bad as the good old starcraft/warcraft days. Ahhh how I long for huge 50 page arguments over why Starcraft isn't comparable/is comparable to chess...the days...
I wonder if forums can be like that? First off, CHECK!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5) Devour and L3 Redemption would mean that it would be nigh impossible to save your teammate or his equipment. If the Onos is redeemed it should spit or sh!t out the devoured marine before returning to the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=24643&hl=' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...f=1&t=24643&hl=</a>
Was this not a bad enough problem that it needed to be fixed? Was this not BITTERLY complained about? Is it even worth mentioning how long this post came BEFORE 2.0 (formerly 1.1) was actually released? Need I bring up MORE threads, with the SAME observation with MORE PT's belittling those posters because they hadn't played it (like you are now? Something to think about...) ? The 'WE'LL DO EVERYTHING 100% PERFECT!!!" lot?
And for the Checkmate?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1.1 will be very different from 1.04, and will be balanced extensively in playtest before release. Devour will be tweaked until it's fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Not trying to single him out, but this was the general consensus from many people in many threads)
So I think the thread starter might want to have a rethink. I'm not trying to bash the PT's or whatever, there really isn't a point for that. But this arrogance seriously needs to go, especially when history typically repeats itself.
Why not try some of the 'potential' balance problems anyway with what you have. Some are going to be stupid, but just because they aren't based on first hand experience has been PROVED in the past that it isn't immediately wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5) Devour and L3 Redemption would mean that it would be nigh impossible to save your teammate or his equipment. If the Onos is redeemed it should spit or sh!t out the devoured marine before returning to the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=24643&hl=' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...f=1&t=24643&hl=</a>
Was this not a bad enough problem that it needed to be fixed? Was this not BITTERLY complained about? Is it even worth mentioning how long this post came BEFORE 2.0 (formerly 1.1) was actually released? Need I bring up MORE threads, with the SAME observation with MORE PT's belittling those posters because they hadn't played it (like you are now? Something to think about...) ? The 'WE'LL DO EVERYTHING 100% PERFECT!!!" lot?
And for the Checkmate?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1.1 will be very different from 1.04, and will be balanced extensively in playtest before release. Devour will be tweaked until it's fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Not trying to single him out, but this was the general consensus from many people in many threads)
So I think the thread starter might want to have a rethink. I'm not trying to bash the PT's or whatever, there really isn't a point for that. But this arrogance seriously needs to go, especially when history typically repeats itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Developers and Playtesters could not expect the grave reprecussions Devour/Redemption had in the hands of horrible players.
Face it: Pub = Horrible Player. Clanners/Vet/PT (The old Vet/PTs...) = Not Horrible.
2.0 Betatest servers never had unskilled Onoses. They also never went up against horrible marines. Subsequently, they either died, or killed the marine team. They never redempted a million times because A) Marines can't shoot and B) Onos can't kill the bad shooting marines. This was the reason Devour/Redemption got so out of hand on Pub servers. Pub Onoses would run into a marine base and spend the last vestages of their little skill to eat ONE marine. Subsequently, Pub marines would take 4 years to slowly whittle down the Pub Onos' health. Of course, this is a Pub Onos here... so the 4 years of life would be used doing random things like missing attacks and trying to use Charge. There was no danger of the Pub Onos ever dying.. so it just redempted a million times. Compound this with the fact that Pubs never use teamwork, thus, this process would repeat every 45 seconds or so. This turned it into a general annoyance/imbalance which is why it got removed.
Disclaimer: Not all Pubs are "Horrible". Likewise, not all Clanners/Vets/PTs are "Not Horrible". This isn't meant to offend anyone, rather open people up to the facts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Developers and Playtesters could not expect the grave reprecussions Devour/Redemption had in the hands of horrible players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again, the fact that WAYYYYY before its release, some COMPLETELY RANDOM poster did... You know, the funny thing is, if I say what I want to now, it will be seen as flaming the PT's, which is NOT my intention. Again, what you said does nothing against my argument, in fact you've merely supported me. Again, this was predicted well and truely before the release and shouted down by the general arrogance of the PT's involved.
All I know is it wasn't those who posted those kind of balance posts who ended up with egg on their faces.
But you're exactly right, and lets REQUOTE you ONCE AGAIN just to prove how wonderfully your point supports my argument:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Developers and Playtesters could not expect the grave reprecussions Devour/Redemption had in the hands of horrible players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it doesn't change the fact that one of those horrible players, pointed it out while the good players couldn't even see it. Here we have the PT's, like this fellow, trying to say that the 'horrible' players also have a worthless opinion that isn't even worth posting. You know what, I could bring up a thread, from the 1.1 days that is about the exact same topic.
Now you can make up your own mind as to what was more worthless, a balance thread from players making their observations, or these kinds of threads.
I've not memorized the changelogs, but they are few & far between now, my own personal two being
O Stomp (Too hard a counter, is currently 1.04 webs in a new format)
O Blink turning you invisible.
But in response to XeroSlayer, you should still be able to offer <i>opinions</i> on how you feel X will affect Y. I have no idea what Combat plays like, but I'm still allowed to say "I'm worried the development of Combat will result in the potential stagnation of NS vanilla" regardless of whether that's true or not.
It's all in the wording. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Shockwave
So all I have to do is form some kiddy bull**** clan to hope I win an ATi card and suddenly I get exponentially better? I could probably outplay some of you.
So all I have to do is form some kiddy bull**** clan to hope I win an ATi card and suddenly I get exponentially better? I could probably outplay some of you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, you totally skipped over his disclaimer. I know it's really an extreme overgeneralisation, but his arguement does have some weight.
Listen, Xeros post was a rant about how ppl will sell things short with out ever even trying it.
If ppl have opinions about how they think x with work, thats good and dandy, doesn't mean they know for sure, just how they think it will be.
Now I also blame a few of the Vets, CMs and PTs for this "its so unbalanced" junk that seems to be flooding the game forums. Many ppl have 1 track minds and as soon as they play something once and it doesn't live up to there expectations, its "Unbalanced, bugged, unfair..." Ppl are really too quick to say "The Onos is so strong now and with stomp hes unkillable!" But if you watch these same ppl, they never try to adapt their attacks, they run head on towards an Onos and wounder why they were devoured.
CMs, Vets, Pts need to play the game a while before they can make comments about game play, just as non PTs should be keeping their negitive opinions to them selves, at least until they try the game out.
Don't take everything you read to heart. Not to point you out uranium, but you always seem negitive when you post,(not always but you do have your moments) if I was a noob and read your comments I might think the game is horrible.
I think its important that every is carful with how they word things and ppl who have yet to play 3.0, shouldn't be casting dark judgement on it yet. Its not perfectly balanced, but its alot more blanced than anything I have played to date. (1.1 - 3.0).
So everyone please Have Faith in Flayra, he does read these forums and I'm sure he doesn't enjoy all the negitive comments.
So all I have to do is form some kiddy bull**** clan to hope I win an ATi card and suddenly I get exponentially better? I could probably outplay some of you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, you totally skipped over his disclaimer. I know it's really an extreme overgeneralisation, but his arguement does have some weight. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I did. Sorry. Still, he's openly admitting that he sucks as well, even if he's a "new vet" he's saying he's a horrible player.
Firstly, who is going to listen to a horrible player that doesn't have the beta?
Secondly, the situation presented (Devour/Redemption getting out of hand) was inconceivable in the eyes of Developers/Playtesters. Why? Because the situation is a result of low skill. Who could have forseen that the Pub comminity was so bad- bad enough to the point that nobody foresaw a problem arising from it. Even if his argument was valid, it was from a Pub's standpoint. Vets/Playtesters can't get stupid enough to look at situations the same way a Pub person does, therefore it was ignored.
Now, the non-playtester/vet person did in fact, point it out first. Perhaps we actually should give him credit- Maybe he has some special intuition as to predict the stupidity of pub players. He should be appointed on the Developer's team... seriously! He could be the Oracle! Someone to predict how Pub players will react to certain situations and use certain skills.
Uranium, make a team. My clan .ir would love to scrim you. Just because I don't have vet status doesn't mean that I'm not on a vet team. I opted out of playing combat (and thus getting vet status) because I wanted to pass my classes this semester. Only recently have I reapplied for vet status through my clan, as my classload has gotten less.
Again, my disclaimer still stands. I understand the hipocracy of my previous post given that i'm not a 'vet'. But believe me, I've played in clan matches and scrims against the best of them. Face it, the truth hurts: Vets/Playtesters > Pubs.
This was not meant to be condecending. There is a horrible skill difference between Pubs and Vets/Playtesters. Until this is changed, the game will forever have horrible dissonance. New players will be discouraged, and causual gamers will run away.