Gaming Morality: Should There Be Boundaries?
Confuzor
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2412Awaiting Authorization
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2412Awaiting Authorization
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">/alarmed at the advancements in graphics</div> I started thinking about this after reading the WWII games thread, and I feel something’s in the processing of rotting. There is no doubt that graphics and AI are improving at a steady rate, but I’m beginning to be a bit concerned with how far developers are going to take it. When the snippets for HL2 first came out, one of the first things that my friend told me was, “When I start playing, there’s no way I’m going to bring my crowbar near the scientists.” The graphics have become quite convincing, compared the HL1, where not many of us had qualms in beating up Barneys and scientists with our crowbars. The other thing that would be disturbing would be the more advanced AI as they would more convincing as they plead for their lives.
This feeling of repulsion has only arisen due to the technology. When I saw Postal 2, I didn’t really care much about it because it looked and felt so comical and ****ty. It does somewhat amuse me that so many people are out there to lobby against such a retarded game; it kind of reminds me of Marge’s crusade against Itchy and Scratchy. But looking now, I can almost sympathize with these lobbyists. No, I don’t believe that violent games alone will raise a nutcase, but what does scare me is the realism of the violence. If Postal 2 had improved in the graphics, physics system and AI, and given the environment a sense of realism, then it really would be scary. Of course we argue that the public wouldn’t stand for such an abomination to be available on the market. Maybe that’s what we’d say <b>today</b>. However, all that simply needs to be done are "innovators" to push the envelope little by little, as we become more desensitized by the violence, no matter how realistic. In fact, you could say I have nothing to worry about at all, since I won’t find anything to be scared of with my increased immunity to being repulsed!
To further compliment the situation, developers aren’t just content with pushing the boundaries of the technology, they’re also pushing the boundaries of the content themselves. It’s basically like the pitiful attempts by “innovative” rap/rock stars that use shock lyrics. We would like to ignore the songs/games that have such content. Unfortunately, the media is intent on depriving of this opportunity to starve the people we would like to see gone.
Japan is a country where this desensitization has already come in the form of the hentai rape simulators. Those of you not disgusted by this initial stage of morality breach might say, “So what? They’re simply drawings. Its just cartoons/anime, not real life.” Unfortunately, because technology has given rise to CG; rape simulators are now on the market with the graphic complexity of FF: The Spirits Within. Okay, the graphics haven’t reached a stage of realism where we can’t distinguish between the two <b>yet</b>, but ****, I’d like to gouge my eyes before we reach the “final” stage.
The most perplexing problem with all of this is how to parent your kids with all this **** going on, (one reason why I would consider it suicide to raise kids in an urban area). We ourselves don’t need the protection of censorship, but no child needs to see this kind of filth. But what are we going to do to stop them? You can supervise the HOME computer, but what’s to stop them from delving into this **** at a friend’s house, or somewhere else? Even censorship on kids is becoming more difficult; when you tell them not to do something, they will want to find out why themselves… lets hope they reject it at first sight. But if the situation ever degenerates to the point where it’s everywhere, it’ll simply be something new to be desensitized by.
If you haven’t already seen it, I suggest you Kazaa, or whatever you p2p with, and watch the music video “Do the Evolution” by Pearl Jam. I think one of the most haunting scenes in the video has to be at the end, where you see the fat f*** connected to a VR machine, which comes with a **** attachment accessory. In the VR world, he stands towering over a beautiful girl on the floor. The girl turns to him with tears in her eyes. He’s holding a belt. Switching back out on to him in the real world, you can see he’s having an enjoyable experience.
So… anyone up for boundaries as to how realistic a violent game should be? Or do we let the **** flood us with their **** and show how little profit they can garner from it?
heh, like THAT would ever work… Sex sells. Violence sells. It sells more as a hybrid. That is, and shall remain law.
This feeling of repulsion has only arisen due to the technology. When I saw Postal 2, I didn’t really care much about it because it looked and felt so comical and ****ty. It does somewhat amuse me that so many people are out there to lobby against such a retarded game; it kind of reminds me of Marge’s crusade against Itchy and Scratchy. But looking now, I can almost sympathize with these lobbyists. No, I don’t believe that violent games alone will raise a nutcase, but what does scare me is the realism of the violence. If Postal 2 had improved in the graphics, physics system and AI, and given the environment a sense of realism, then it really would be scary. Of course we argue that the public wouldn’t stand for such an abomination to be available on the market. Maybe that’s what we’d say <b>today</b>. However, all that simply needs to be done are "innovators" to push the envelope little by little, as we become more desensitized by the violence, no matter how realistic. In fact, you could say I have nothing to worry about at all, since I won’t find anything to be scared of with my increased immunity to being repulsed!
To further compliment the situation, developers aren’t just content with pushing the boundaries of the technology, they’re also pushing the boundaries of the content themselves. It’s basically like the pitiful attempts by “innovative” rap/rock stars that use shock lyrics. We would like to ignore the songs/games that have such content. Unfortunately, the media is intent on depriving of this opportunity to starve the people we would like to see gone.
Japan is a country where this desensitization has already come in the form of the hentai rape simulators. Those of you not disgusted by this initial stage of morality breach might say, “So what? They’re simply drawings. Its just cartoons/anime, not real life.” Unfortunately, because technology has given rise to CG; rape simulators are now on the market with the graphic complexity of FF: The Spirits Within. Okay, the graphics haven’t reached a stage of realism where we can’t distinguish between the two <b>yet</b>, but ****, I’d like to gouge my eyes before we reach the “final” stage.
The most perplexing problem with all of this is how to parent your kids with all this **** going on, (one reason why I would consider it suicide to raise kids in an urban area). We ourselves don’t need the protection of censorship, but no child needs to see this kind of filth. But what are we going to do to stop them? You can supervise the HOME computer, but what’s to stop them from delving into this **** at a friend’s house, or somewhere else? Even censorship on kids is becoming more difficult; when you tell them not to do something, they will want to find out why themselves… lets hope they reject it at first sight. But if the situation ever degenerates to the point where it’s everywhere, it’ll simply be something new to be desensitized by.
If you haven’t already seen it, I suggest you Kazaa, or whatever you p2p with, and watch the music video “Do the Evolution” by Pearl Jam. I think one of the most haunting scenes in the video has to be at the end, where you see the fat f*** connected to a VR machine, which comes with a **** attachment accessory. In the VR world, he stands towering over a beautiful girl on the floor. The girl turns to him with tears in her eyes. He’s holding a belt. Switching back out on to him in the real world, you can see he’s having an enjoyable experience.
So… anyone up for boundaries as to how realistic a violent game should be? Or do we let the **** flood us with their **** and show how little profit they can garner from it?
heh, like THAT would ever work… Sex sells. Violence sells. It sells more as a hybrid. That is, and shall remain law.
Comments
Will we ever go too far? Look at GTA3. You can murder the prostitutes after they "heal" you. That's too far already. I mean, our civilization is slowly decaying into violence, when we had the longest stretch of world-wide peace. ever. Ironic, no?
Another thing is that the technology is improving, and will constantly improve, because it sells. People like being able to act out fantasies.
i'll post more coherent after the angel of sleep comes and takes me away to sleepy land.
Would you rather someone has fun by beating a digitized person to death with a crowbar in a computer game, or tying their cat to a tree and setting it on fire?
In ye olde days, people would play games like that for fun: Lock a cat in a room, first one to kill it with a rock won.
As long as people can tell that things on a screen arent real, then it should be okay. When people cannot tell the difference, then they should be kept away...
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Harris and Klebold had Doom. You think if someone bought them Quake, they would of been more satisfied?
It would be cool to see how many cats we save thanks to our video games.
I don't think that's the kind of people who would bring a bright future to humankind really... If they can hurt mammals , they can hurt humans : remember how the hitlerjungen were taught to treat cats and dogs cruely?
Personally , the worst I did was burning/dismembering ants back when I was very young and unstable. As said , the video games aren't very realistic yet , HL scientists and barneys definitely look comical , same with GTA civilians and other victims.
firstly, age plays a <i> Significant </i> role in peoples opinions.
*general rule* young people say games are harmless, old people warn of desensitization.
a few years ago I firmly believed games were harmless. Now im 21, and while its hardly *proof of my general rule, I am now much more aware of the long term impact of outside sources on the brain and on our perceptions.
I say long term, because i think it is the reason younger people dont understand what effects this *might* be having. they simply dont have the perspective to make an accurate judgement.
of course, I could be wrong.
now aside from discrediting all younger peoples opinion in this matter <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Games affect you! it doesnt matter wether you can consiously differentiate between 'false' and 'real' violence, you do somthing a number of times and it becomes easier, more familiar, more subconsious.
wether it be algebra, or hitting people with crowbars, your brains making connections.
Even If the only affect was that say, over time, , TV reports of deaths 'elsewhere' seemed less important, or you read about someone being brutally murdered and thought less of it (ie. thinking less of second hand exposure to violence) youv still been affected.
While the effects may not be all that noticable with our current level of sensory emmersion, who knows what kind of effects photo realistic graphics of murders etc.. will have on people.
Not just photo realism either.
Imagine GTA-9 photo realistic murdering with a point system to ACTIVLY REWARD you for it. Pavlov springs to mind. now imagine someone underage getting hold of this game. Without wanting to sound <i> too </i> old before my time, "Think of the Children!!"
As long as people can tell that things on a screen arent real, then it should be okay. When people cannot tell the difference, then they should be kept away... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is when your society "mass manufactures" mad hatters?
Yet now it is possible for many of these fantasies to be experianced, be it in a virtual reality that <i>hurts no-one</i>. This is the crucial part.
Say someone has pedophillic urges. He, or she, goes out into their neighbourhood and abducts a child, forcing them to have sexual intercourse over the next few days. Result: a child scarred for life and imprisonment or death for the offender (a considerable drain on the taxpayer it must be added).
Say someone has pedophillic urges. He, or she, goes and buys a virtual program that allows them to act out their fantasies. Result: A person who is able to satisfy their fantasies without hurting anyone.
That's the beauty of this technology. Want to kill someone? Load up CS and blast away to your hearts' content. Want to wage war? Play Civ III or bf1942. Want to rape someone? Download some hentai games.
Now of course, there is the question of blurring the line between reality and fiction. But consider that as our technology becomes better, it may very well become possible that our virtual creations will eventually be impossible to tell apart from reality. Which would mean that all these urges and fantasies could be played out to their fullest, in complete privacy and without hurting anyone.
The point here is that if people are presented with such an option to act out their fantasies, their desire to undertake such actions in the real world will greatly diminish. Why? Because it's so much easier to do it on a computer, or in your lounge room. Why go to all the trouble of buying a gun, shooting someone and possibly being arrested when you can throw on a VR headset, have all the guns in the world and shoot anyone you want with no consequenses! Why abduct a child and face arrest and alienation from society when you can rape every child you want in a virtual pre-school?
People will always have urges throughout their lives that are destructive to our societies. So why not give them an outlet?
people have been saying scince Pac Man, that games are a problem, and that they pose a threat.
Yet, only 1 instance of a game relating to any wrong doing has even come about. Columbine, Harris and Klebold. I would be quick to argue that those kids were an unstable concoction without gaming.
I think some of you are seeing a problem that really isnt even there.
Oh, how I wait for that day. ...*drool*...
I believe everything has an effect. It's impossible to experience anything without coming away with something you did not have before or confirming something you already were thinking.
It comes down to maturity and responsibility. People have to be capable of making well-informed decisions based on more than music, TV, or games before they pick up death metal, most rap, violent and sex filled movies, and high-realism violent games...ect. The only way to be sure kids learn this ability is if they have a good family structure and a childhood. No public program and no amount of money can ever meet the neccesity of a child to have a loving family.
Personally. I like my Disturbed, Godsmack, Kidneythieves, Mozart, Vivaldi, Weird Al, Swordfish, Godfather, U-571, GTA, Wolfenstien, DOOM, Heretic, Hexen, Quake, Tribes, Hitman, Thief.....and the list of stuff goes on.
So we KNOW it will only get worse. You'd be naive to think the trend will stop now.
However, your grandmother is much more sensitized to violence than we are. Likewise, we will be much more sensitized to violence than our children and our children's children. Do we think our grandma's version of a "violent" film is violent to us? Most likely not. So maybe it is relative. In the future, we will turn into our grandfathers and grandmothers saying how violent things are in that day and age.
In any case, a fact is that either we will accept the trend or we will reject it and be able to stop nothing. Either way, what will happen will happen.
What are simunitions? real bullets with a paintfilled tip... law enforcement agencies use them to train and i think it would OWN... however, when will that ever happen? Nevar! Oh well, games are enough.
And when they get photo realistic!?!?? PWNAGE! more pwnage!
Mmmmmm Photorealistic marines look tasty :-)
So what happens if you don't have this switch you ask?
Ladies and gentlemen, I think you've hit the nail on the defective gene that serial killers have.
People will always have urges throughout their lives that are destructive to our societies. So why not give them an outlet? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I would think it would have the opposite effect as to diminishing their desire to commit such an act; in fact, I would tend to believe it would actually lower someone's inhibitions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In every society, and within every person within those societies, there exist fantasies. They might be as simple as wanting a new car to wanting to become Supreme Overlord of Earth. Now for the vast majority of people, most of these fantasies never come true, nor do people try and bring them about. Those that are possible people will try and achieve, but for the rest the imagination must do the rest.
Yet now it is possible for many of these fantasies to be experianced, be it in a virtual reality that <i>hurts no-one</i>. This is the crucial part.
Say someone has pedophillic urges. He, or she, goes out into their neighbourhood and abducts a child, forcing them to have sexual intercourse over the next few days. Result: a child scarred for life and imprisonment or death for the offender (a considerable drain on the taxpayer it must be added).
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I don't generally think that someone who suddenly has a pedophilic urge will just get up and go abduct a child. There is always a process of weakening resolve/blurring the fantasy world with the real world. Someone who doesn't have such inhibitions to begin with...they'd probably get jailed for lesser offenses first.
Why do I think it's a bad idea to encourage the fulfillment of these fantasies, even though they hurt no one? It sets a precedent. There are no consequences. Since there are no consequences of fulfilling their fantasies, it just gradually makes the person feel a sense of "well, I guess it's ok to actually do it in real life." Now, I certainly hope that I don't have children if this is the case.
i'm gonna be on the comp the WHOOOLE time. yarrrrharharharhar.
well, as an example... SoF 2 on full graphix had better gore than postal did. sometimes you'd get disemboweling shots, those were grossss. and you could slice up faces to get at the brain matter...
yeah, SoF 2 was nastier than postal 2.
me, i really don't care about violence realism in games. that's part of the atmosphere, for me.
lobbyists can keep lobbying, because i'll be in or past my 20s and able to buy those games.
If that is the case, future generations should technically be the most outwardly healthy people. Our parents and the parents before them did not have the blessing/curse of video games to express all the violent fantasies that they had, therefore, they would actually have lived in a <b>more</b> twisted time than we currently do, having no place to vent their violent inhibitions. Actual wars must of been their answer for video games, except it was game over after one life.
Sex and violence in entertainment?
The amount of violent incidents "linked" to games, movies or music in America can be counted on your hands. But im sure its only a matter of time before we see recreational murders and bars that permit rape and so on. Honestly...dont pigeonhole the whole of our society. Fact is 95% of us are productive, responsible people. Screw the other 5% that will do what they do regardless of what they see on TV, or what games they play.
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Why? If you can do it so easily on a computer, why bother doing it in the real world?
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I don't generally think that someone who suddenly has a pedophilic urge will just get up and go abduct a child. There is always a process of weakening resolve/blurring the fantasy world with the real world. Someone who doesn't have such inhibitions to begin with...they'd probably get jailed for lesser offenses first.
Why do I think it's a bad idea to encourage the fulfillment of these fantasies, even though they hurt no one? It sets a precedent. There are no consequences. Since there are no consequences of fulfilling their fantasies, it just gradually makes the person feel a sense of "well, I guess it's ok to actually do it in real life." Now, I certainly hope that I don't have children if this is the case.
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But there are consequenses. Do it in the real world, and it's a jail term during which time you'll almost certainly be killed (prisoners don't like child molesters). That will remain true no matter how realistic games or similations become.
Again, it comes down to a simple question: If the virtual world can't be distinguished from the actual world, why would someone act upon their urges in the real world? It doesn't make any sense. Why risk jail and death when you can fullfill your fantasies on a computer.
Ask yourself this. You shoot someone in CS. Are you doing something wrong? No, because the victim is just some pixels. You understand though that you shouldn't do it in real life. If you don't, you're already completely messed up. The same applies with raping a simulation of a 7 year old girl.
Now if you want to not encourage such actions, or make them illegal, go ahead and try, and I can guarantee that someone will write a pirate program. Plus you'd be getting into some really dodgy legal territory: does a computer program have rights? Can it emote? What exactly is wrong with using or writing such a program?
Ask yourself this. You shoot someone in CS. Are you doing something wrong? No, because the victim is just some pixels. You understand though that you shouldn't do it in real life. If you don't, you're already completely messed up. The same applies with raping a simulation of a 7 year old girl. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is my point. <b>Only</b> when the VR world cannot be distinguished from the real world will your idea be ok. Until then, the real world will still be more real and people will still act out ther fantasies in it, prefering it over the VR world, becasue, although there are greater consequences, it is <b>real</b>. The VR world is just a bunch of pixels.
Ofcourse, when we cannot distinguish between VR are RL, that is a whole other can of worms. I dont know how many of you have seen the film Existenz, but it deals with that issue. It is about VR, set in the future, and to cut a long story short, nobody can tell the two worlds (of VR or RL) apart. <span style='color:red'>SPOILER</span> <span style='color:gray'>Eventually, what you think is the real world turns out to be part of the VR game.</span> With mulitple levels of reality, who will be able to tell which one is real. Old chinese proverb: Am I a man dreaming of be a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming of being a man?" Imagine what you would think if you were there acting out your fantasy, be it long range sniping or raping a 7 yr old and then finding out that you were actually in RL and you had actually just killed those people or raped that girl.
VR is a very useful technology, but it should never be able to get as real as real life. Imagine the guy raping the girl trying to explain to her parents that he thought he was in VR.
The can of worms realistic VR will open is just too large to risk it.
Your inventing a problem that isnt even there. Noone has come up with a single "incident" other than columbine. 2 **** up kids that happened to play Doom. And yet that should reflect upon tens of millions of gamers?
Yet, I don't recall this ever happening with a game of pacman. Doom isn't exactly realistic, and those guys were admittedly off their rocker.
However, the closer you make this to real life, the less "off the rocker" you have to be to think it is real. Does that make any sense?
The trend is that games are getting more realistic. So the question is, what happens next?
Once running in game, jumping in game and pulling a trigger or controlling recoil etc. exert the same energy and use the same muscles as it does in reality...then we are in danger. Until then it is just pixels on a screen and buttons on a keyboard. That distinction can be made by anyone exept the extremely stupid. Once it becomes a full sensory experience, that distinction will most certianly be blurred. But even then, Im not going to underestimate the human speceis as a whole because stupid people happen to exist.
The stupidity the media glamourizes gats ratings and sells commercials. Thats why it seems as tho people are so stupid and outrageos. This stupidity is not nearly as rampant as people seem to think. I think thats where these worries stem from. it seems that everyone is too stupid too handle graphics, becase were so bombarded by peoples stupidity in the media. Worry not, MOST of us are intelligent enough to tell the difference.
You might expext 98% to get it right, but in fact it is more like 60%.
10% are REALLY stupid and the other 90% are just plain gullible.
that is all you can get from that information. You could try to link it to the fact that they have simulators, but it could be any number of factors. good parenting for example. sorry, but your statement just goes to prove the "there are 3 types of lise: lies, damn lies and statistics" quote
that is all you can get from that information. You could try to link it to the fact that they have simulators, but it could be any number of factors. good parenting for example. sorry, but your statement just goes to prove the "there are 3 types of lise: lies, damn lies and statistics" quote <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your right. I concede.