Allegorical Or No? Lotr
Island_Savage
Join Date: 2003-09-30 Member: 21354Members
Join Date: 2003-09-30 Member: 21354Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">is LOTR allegorical, your opinion?</div> I just got done reading Tolkien's biography by michael white and in a part of it he suggests that LOTR may have been an allegorical writing to the 20th century. I've done my fair share of reading of the lotr series, three full times in fact, and I still find as much enjoyment out of it as the first time i read it. However, i can see how the story may be allegorical and how it may not. Now many people say that tolkien wouldn't have liked it to be thought of as allegorical, but a wide range of events that have happened while and since he wrote it point at it otherwise. There are many varied arguments on either side, i'm just curious as to what the good people of the ns forums <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> think Whats your opinion on this matter?
Comments
Tolkein may not have intended for those connections but perhaps it occured subconsciously?
Can't really be allegorical then.
Tolkien was also heavily influenced by a friend of his who some of you might know - one Mr C. S. Lewis. The bigger picture of LOTR is based around (like so many good stories are) Biblical stories i.e. one God, one high and powerful angel who goes off the rails, raging battle good vs evil. Evil cannot created only twist etc etc.
I dont think is symbolism, but it does have a message and borrows heavily from the Christian history.
My personal theory:
Dwarves = Germans
Elves = the French
Hobbits = the British
Orcs = Americans <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a long-living, peace-loving, weed-smoking, humble hobbit. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The allegory doesn't have to be political in nature...right?
How does "Good vs Evil" have anything to do with reality? :)
A text should be interpreted the way the author intends. Although, you can read things a different way, you cant say that the author was trying to say this, when he wasnt =\. For example, when we where learning <i>One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest</i>, we were taught all the metaphors, symbols, character constructions, narrative conventions etc, but dont forget, this was written by a man on LSD.
The bottom line is people always search for meaning, and apply texts to their own world, therefore overinterpretation of texts results, in whacky derivatives loosely based on the text, which are not what the author intends. Lotr was influenced by the battles, and the violence that occurred in WW2, in fact, Tolkein wrote parts of it in the trenches. But it is still a story, a story where good vs evil can have infinite applications within the world.
I'm really referring to the section where the hobbits return to their home, only to find it a lot different to how they remember.
<span style='color:red'>If you haven't read the books and don't want spoilers, look away now. You only have yourself to blame if you spoil it.</span>
Not only does it seem a bit at odds with the rest of the story, but there are noticable parallels between Hobbiton and Nazi Germany. Sounds weird, I know, but consider:
- It is corrupted by Saruman's and Wormtongue's rhetoric. <i>(Hitler and Goebbels.)</i>
- Overrun with thugs. <i>(More SA than SS, but either could apply)</i>
- Ruled by fear, reluctance to help troublemakers. <i>(Social Democrats/Communists failed to get a decent opposition going because of this, as well as the "undesirables" later on...)</i>
- Saruman's own hate destroyed him. <i>(Hitler's suicide.)</i>
- Pippin and Merry, stronger than Sam and Frodo, could represent America to the former's Britain. Let's not forget that ultimately Pip and Merry became stronger due to their trials (the emergence of America as a superpower), whereas Sam and Frodo have only lost (decline of the Empire).
OK, the rest of the boards seems relatively quite, so I guess I can engage in this. I'm quite happy to see our first literary discussion in this, by the way.
First, I'll agree with Spider and the rest in so far that I doubt direct allegoric intentions of Tolkien; to quote from the foreword some people mentioned: "If the Lord of the Rings had indeed been written in accordance with WW2, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed, but wielded, and Barad-Dûr wouldn't have crumbled, but been occupied." (Loose re-translation.)
This sheds by the way a rather interesting light on Tolkiens opinion of the war: Apparently, he believed that the Allies decided to use the Axis' strategies and strengths against them, and we all know Gandalfs opinion on such...
This does however not have to mean that the 20th century didn't influence Tolkiens writing. While he did as far as I'm aware not take active part in the war (he was an elderly Oxford professor by that time, but he did take part in WW1), I'm convinced that any authors notions and thus perception is altered by his experiences in the real world, and even if he seeks to avoid direct connections to it by creating a work of fantasy, reality is still influencing his work, simply by providing the aspects he will then avoid. Had the Lord of the Rings for example been written a hundred years earlier, I doubt that the different races would've formed alliances; they would've fought for their own peoples benefit, and only for those.
Anyway, a few corrections / remarks:
Marine, you assume the Bible to be the main background of Middle Earth. This, I can not agree with completely. While the 'Genesis' at the beginning of the Silmarillion has some obvious similiarities to the Bible, Morgoths fall being the by far most prominent one, the story of the Vala, which can be compared to the Nordic Pantheon, and the arrival of the races is heavily influenced by Norse mythology, which isn't too surprising as Tolkien was an expert on it, he even did a complete translation of 'Beowulf', which was published a few years ago.
Snidley:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- It is corrupted by Saruman's and Wormtongue's rhetoric. (Hitler and Goebbels.)
- Overrun with thugs. (More SA than SS, but either could apply)
- Ruled by fear, reluctance to help troublemakers. (Social Democrats/Communists failed to get a decent opposition going because of this, as well as the "undesirables" later on...)
- Saruman's own hate destroyed him. (Hitler's suicide.)
- Pippin and Merry, stronger than Sam and Frodo, could represent America to the former's Britain. Let's not forget that ultimately Pip and Merry became stronger due to their trials (the emergence of America as a superpower), whereas Sam and Frodo have only lost (decline of the Empire).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're falling to the easiest and biggest danger of interpretation: Assuming your own opinion to be that of the author.
Tolkien was a Briton with heart and soul. He was a citizen of the British Empire and felt like one. Assuming that he really saw the emergence of the US as a superpower that eclipsed GB by the time he ended the 'Rings' is highly doubtable. I'd also doubt that Frodo and Sam "have only lost": Not only do both get to travel to Westernis, the paradise where Ardas gods reside amongst the Elves, they also live comfortable lifes up to that point: Frodo becomes a decent old Hobbit, and Sam marries Rosie.
Erm... No, definetely not.
<li>While Gandalf is sent by the gods of Middle Earth, he is one of many wizards who are to counsel the races in the war. Jesus wasn't one amongst many, he was one of his kind.
<li>Gandalf doesn't withstand the temptation of commanding his powers in the confrontation with the evil in Moria (which is the true reason for his fall: A punishment, not vengeance.). Jesus withstood the temptation of power while facing the devil.
<li>Gandalf plays the major part of his role in the world of Tolkien after his 'rebirth'. Not quite like Jesus.
If you want to compare the wizards to Biblical figures, I'd favor the Seraphim, the highest of angles. Gandalf would thus be a 'halfway fallen angle': Abandoning the commands of his lords, but still opposing the darkness.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll admit the last point was probably taking it a bit far, Nem. I always felt that that section didn't quite fit in with the rest of the book, though, even if it's all pure coincidence/me looking into it too deeply. I can't help think that the other comparisions aren't such a great leap of faith.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd take the freeing of the Shire as a frame to the rest of the story:
In the beginning, Frodo notes that he'll feel better along his way as long as he knows that a place like the Shire still exists, although it can't offer him refuge. The occupation of the Shire can thus be seen as a very personal attack on the four Hobbits and their hopes after their defiance of Saruman.
It means at the same time that the defeat of the evil ends where it began, a classical prosaic device of closing a story.
Yes, Sarumans rethorical abilities can indeed be seen as a parallel to Hitler, but I'd take that as a passing resemblance, not a theme: Hitler started becoming the archetype of the villian in the time of the completition of the Lord. It's only logical that Tolkien, who was of curse influenced by the events of the war on an emotional level, would follow this archetype.
I'm also reluctant to accept the equation of the Shire with Germany that is implied with this thesis, as it is usually considered the embodiment of the English Midlands.
Summarizing, yes, there are parallels, but they are too passing and can not be brought in coherence with the whole of the book, so I'd rather drop it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What were Flayra's intentions when he wrote Natural Selection?
The Kharaa are obviously a metaphor for global religious terrorism, while the TSA represent the United States of America.
Spiders comment is quite correct.
OK, the rest of the boards seems relatively quite, so I guess I can engage in this. I'm quite happy to see our first literary discussion in this, by the way.
First, I'll agree with Spider and the rest in so far that I doubt direct allegoric intentions of Tolkien; to quote from the foreword some people mentioned: "If the Lord of the Rings had indeed been written in accordance with WW2, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed, but wielded, and Barad-Dûr wouldn't have crumbled, but been occupied." (Loose re-translation.)
This sheds by the way a rather interesting light on Tolkiens opinion of the war: Apparently, he believed that the Allies decided to use the Axis' strategies and strengths against them, and we all know Gandalfs opinion on such...
This does however not have to mean that the 20th century didn't influence Tolkiens writing. While he did as far as I'm aware not take active part in the war (he was an elderly Oxford professor by that time, but he did take part in WW1), I'm convinced that any authors notions and thus perception is altered by his experiences in the real world, and even if he seeks to avoid direct connections to it by creating a work of fantasy, reality is still influencing his work, simply by providing the aspects he will then avoid. Had the Lord of the Rings for example been written a hundred years earlier, I doubt that the different races would've formed alliances; they would've fought for their own peoples benefit, and only for those.
Anyway, a few corrections / remarks:
Marine, you assume the Bible to be the main background of Middle Earth. This, I can not agree with completely. While the 'Genesis' at the beginning of the Silmarillion has some obvious similiarities to the Bible, Morgoths fall being the by far most prominent one, the story of the Vala, which can be compared to the Nordic Pantheon, and the arrival of the races is heavily influenced by Norse mythology, which isn't too surprising as Tolkien was an expert on it, he even did a complete translation of 'Beowulf', which was published a few years ago.
Snidley:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- It is corrupted by Saruman's and Wormtongue's rhetoric. (Hitler and Goebbels.)
- Overrun with thugs. (More SA than SS, but either could apply)
- Ruled by fear, reluctance to help troublemakers. (Social Democrats/Communists failed to get a decent opposition going because of this, as well as the "undesirables" later on...)
- Saruman's own hate destroyed him. (Hitler's suicide.)
- Pippin and Merry, stronger than Sam and Frodo, could represent America to the former's Britain. Let's not forget that ultimately Pip and Merry became stronger due to their trials (the emergence of America as a superpower), whereas Sam and Frodo have only lost (decline of the Empire).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're falling to the easiest and biggest danger of interpretation: Assuming your own opinion to be that of the author.
Tolkien was a Briton with heart and soul. He was a citizen of the British Empire and felt like one. Assuming that he really saw the emergence of the US as a superpower that eclipsed GB by the time he ended the 'Rings' is highly doubtable. I'd also doubt that Frodo and Sam "have only lost": Not only do both get to travel to Westernis, the paradise where Ardas gods reside amongst the Elves, they also live comfortable lifes up to that point: Frodo becomes a decent old Hobbit, and Sam marries Rosie. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I said based around the Bible, I meant "had its roots in". The roots of LOTR are pretty much in The Silmarillion, which as you pointed out has alot of very obviously Genesis inspired history. I definately wouldnt go on to say "and the rest of the LOTR was also".
I've tried for a long time to find any sort of "Christian message" or Biblical parallel in LOTR, and I cant find anything other than a War between the One high and God and evil. Its got a lot of good messages, but I'd agree the entire thing isnt based around the Bible.
[/my 2p]