Ns Is Not Fixed! Why 2.0 Is Fundamentally Same
spyduck
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18939Members
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18939Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why 2.0 is the same as 1.x</div> Now with many many months into public release, we had a chance to fully explore how 2.0 changed
the game. First there was a complaint about aliens being too strong, then some tweaks to make marine equipment quite a bit cheaper...
<b>Lets get to the real issue:
<i>INTENTION: 2.0 was meant to make the game be undecided as long as possible</i>
</b>
Trains of Onos colliding in great clashes with trains of HA, fighting in yellow umbra gas and medpacks raining down from the heavens, right?
Well thats the idea.
<b>The REALITY
<i>FACT: THE GAME IS OVER BEFORE THE REAL BIG BATTLE IS OVER(almost all games) === HALF OF THE GAME IS JUST
NOT MESSING UP WHATS BEING SERVED ON A SILVER PLATTER </b>
What that means: As in 1.x the most important aspects were fighting over early game res and territory,
and in 2.0 this has not changed at all. Not that they intended to make it that different, but there remain two
distinct "states of grace" for both the alien and marine teams which stress what im talking about here.
</i>
<b>STATE OF GRACE#1: MARINES</b> You, as commander, have secured enough resources to go into "Execute
Mode" which means, as you are upgrading the armoury, you have full intentions to research HA from your Protolab
as soon as possible, and then drop HA + Stuff in rapid succession for all of the team. Its simply a matter of clicking.
i.e. You reach a certain res state where you can upgrade the armoury, build the proto, research HA, drop tons of HA + stuff
<b>Game is over. Already. NO BATTLE. <i>NO CLIMATIC BATTLE HAS TAKEN PLACE</i> But the GAME IS ALREADY OVER.</b>
The HA train marches, its over.
<b>STATE OF GRACE#2 ALIENS</b> You and a group of skulks have taken out a major outpost. Say the double room.
Within seconds gorges are on the scene, the entire place is yours, two people pop up as onos, knock out everything in sight.
Yet this was the first big victory, <b><i>and while there still may be 20 minutes of gameplay left, you already know in your heart that the
game is over</i></b>. No matter what the marines do, it will not be enough.
What does this mean?
Okay, any of you remember GI JOE cartoons when the evil guys shot red lasers, and the good guys shot blue lasers, and when the lasers clashed, the blue laser would slowly overcome the red laser at the 50% mark,
ALIEN WIN CHART (FIG 1)
picture
- is the blue laser
0 is the red laser
ALIENS are blue
MARINES are red
50% mark
--------------------------------------------0000000000000000000000000000000000
-----------------------------------------------00000000000000000000000000000000
---------------------------------------------000000000000000000000000000000000
--------------------------first big victory early on---0000000000000000000000000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------000000000000000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0
each line represents a certain minute into the game but its not linear, but especially
once the aliens make the first big break,<i><b> the marines structure becomes a house of
cards.</i></b>
MARINE WIN CHART (FIG 2)
Stay alive.
|
Get to enough res and time to upgrade to HA + stuff.
|
Game over.
|
------------
<i><b>Where is the big battle? Its a matter of execution, see? THere is little to nothing
one or two onos can do against the HA train. There is little to nothing marines can do
once the first big alien break has happened. </i></b>.
True, there are comebacks, but I think 2.0 was <i>intended</i> to make comebacks much
more possible, yet as we are seeing as people are playing alot of 2.0 very well now,
its gotten down into a science, the EXACT same way as 1.x was, but it just involves a few
more variables to be set. In 1.x you simply had to get Jetpacks and HMGS, now it requires holding
a bit more resources. Perhaps thats the great charm of 2.0 in that you knew res was important, much
more important than in 1.x, but still, you know as an alien when killing marine res was meaningless,
utterly futile exericse.
I would say 10% of the games are utterly quick executions by either team, 10% are hidelously long but beautiful
and magnificent, grand epic games, and 80% of the games are simply as depicted above (FIG 1 and FIG 2).
the game. First there was a complaint about aliens being too strong, then some tweaks to make marine equipment quite a bit cheaper...
<b>Lets get to the real issue:
<i>INTENTION: 2.0 was meant to make the game be undecided as long as possible</i>
</b>
Trains of Onos colliding in great clashes with trains of HA, fighting in yellow umbra gas and medpacks raining down from the heavens, right?
Well thats the idea.
<b>The REALITY
<i>FACT: THE GAME IS OVER BEFORE THE REAL BIG BATTLE IS OVER(almost all games) === HALF OF THE GAME IS JUST
NOT MESSING UP WHATS BEING SERVED ON A SILVER PLATTER </b>
What that means: As in 1.x the most important aspects were fighting over early game res and territory,
and in 2.0 this has not changed at all. Not that they intended to make it that different, but there remain two
distinct "states of grace" for both the alien and marine teams which stress what im talking about here.
</i>
<b>STATE OF GRACE#1: MARINES</b> You, as commander, have secured enough resources to go into "Execute
Mode" which means, as you are upgrading the armoury, you have full intentions to research HA from your Protolab
as soon as possible, and then drop HA + Stuff in rapid succession for all of the team. Its simply a matter of clicking.
i.e. You reach a certain res state where you can upgrade the armoury, build the proto, research HA, drop tons of HA + stuff
<b>Game is over. Already. NO BATTLE. <i>NO CLIMATIC BATTLE HAS TAKEN PLACE</i> But the GAME IS ALREADY OVER.</b>
The HA train marches, its over.
<b>STATE OF GRACE#2 ALIENS</b> You and a group of skulks have taken out a major outpost. Say the double room.
Within seconds gorges are on the scene, the entire place is yours, two people pop up as onos, knock out everything in sight.
Yet this was the first big victory, <b><i>and while there still may be 20 minutes of gameplay left, you already know in your heart that the
game is over</i></b>. No matter what the marines do, it will not be enough.
What does this mean?
Okay, any of you remember GI JOE cartoons when the evil guys shot red lasers, and the good guys shot blue lasers, and when the lasers clashed, the blue laser would slowly overcome the red laser at the 50% mark,
ALIEN WIN CHART (FIG 1)
picture
- is the blue laser
0 is the red laser
ALIENS are blue
MARINES are red
50% mark
--------------------------------------------0000000000000000000000000000000000
-----------------------------------------------00000000000000000000000000000000
---------------------------------------------000000000000000000000000000000000
--------------------------first big victory early on---0000000000000000000000000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------000000000000000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0
each line represents a certain minute into the game but its not linear, but especially
once the aliens make the first big break,<i><b> the marines structure becomes a house of
cards.</i></b>
MARINE WIN CHART (FIG 2)
Stay alive.
|
Get to enough res and time to upgrade to HA + stuff.
|
Game over.
|
------------
<i><b>Where is the big battle? Its a matter of execution, see? THere is little to nothing
one or two onos can do against the HA train. There is little to nothing marines can do
once the first big alien break has happened. </i></b>.
True, there are comebacks, but I think 2.0 was <i>intended</i> to make comebacks much
more possible, yet as we are seeing as people are playing alot of 2.0 very well now,
its gotten down into a science, the EXACT same way as 1.x was, but it just involves a few
more variables to be set. In 1.x you simply had to get Jetpacks and HMGS, now it requires holding
a bit more resources. Perhaps thats the great charm of 2.0 in that you knew res was important, much
more important than in 1.x, but still, you know as an alien when killing marine res was meaningless,
utterly futile exericse.
I would say 10% of the games are utterly quick executions by either team, 10% are hidelously long but beautiful
and magnificent, grand epic games, and 80% of the games are simply as depicted above (FIG 1 and FIG 2).
Comments
I see comebacks all the time, and more importantly, if one team grossly outskills the other team that team usually wins. It's still not at that state where the better team will win BOTH rounds, but it is at the state where at least if you out skill the oppionent in a good majority you can win both rounds, which is better than nothing.
Again, I've seen comebacks as aliens at the 2 hive level against due to onos and great alien teamwork (onos stomp... yuck), and marine comebacks against powerful alien teams (shotty rush against hive, marines manage to slaughter the alien team enough to win).
Also, with good teams, in 2.0, it's actually quite hard to tell when another player has 'got the game in the bag', or so to speak.
So they all sucked? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
It would help to make later upgrades more specialized (for both sides) so that strategic choices (eg upgrades vs. jet vs. ha vs. MT) counter specific opponents strategy.
Of course you can usually tell who is going to win from the inital 5-10 mins because the best team usually gets an advantage and then as they are the best team they are unlikely to lose once they get the advantage.
However lots of times I see aliens comeback what they get fade/onos and marines comeback once/if they get HA.
The usual 2.0 public game on a good server is:
Rapid Marine expansion/slash and burn. After which they have ~4-6RT's + hive.
The aliens then counter push to the converse position with Fades/Onos. Depnding on how well the marines defend they can then...
Counter push with HA. Where if the alien can hold off 1-2 squads the aliens win and the marines lose.
In 1.x it was:
Marines cap 2-3 res hold for JP/HMG or
Marines try to secure 2 hives. If not rush first hive. If not wait for fades then lose.
2.0 is alot more varied.
As far as i am concerned the games i play are never over until the last rine / alien falls. At least..thats what its like on my server, i dont know what its like where you play...( this is bearing in mind game play is very different from server to server)
Rines relocated to Main Aft. They were pulling the same manouver again, which had brought them (and me) victory in the last game. Problem was, the aliens hive (my team) was Engine, not feed this time around. There was a constant front at engine, while a few players capped nodes. Rines pushed constantly on engine, not even bothering to fortify Ref, and only elecing it's nodes.
In the meantime, they've tried siege bases in tram tunnel, and the vent near engine, all resulting in failure due to teamwork and some good patrols between feed and engine.
I and a few others onos, the third hive goes up, we cream the marines.
Where did the marines go wrong?
Quite simply, they concentrated far too much on engine room and NOT on refinery.
Ref is quite simply, the most advantageous spot on the map for the marines. A base at a strategic location would have secured them THREE Res points, in addition to MS res and Aft res.
Although they did get HA/HMG, it came far too late to do anything. An onos rush from Engine and Ref creamed their measly base.
Put simply, it's now a matter of res nodes and successful tactics rather then a matter of who wins what battle. An onos that gores three res points is worth more then an onos that eats three HA marines. A base at point A is better then a base at Point B.
Sneaky tactics are more rewarding, but risky at the same time. Sneak a phase in their hive, have the whole rine team phase through and pummel the hive before they know what's hit them. If your discovered, you lost the res on a PG.
Or, the last game I was in. Rines relocated to cargo bay. Usually, this means defeat if they get a decent choke on the area. We kept rushing, they built turrets. I noticed 50 res. I gorged, slapped down 3 DC to help out the team, then went near the rine base and slapped OC's. I got killed a few times, but each time I came back there were my OC's doing their work. I managed a total of four OC's, a friend managed 3 on the upper platform. This forced the marines to siege it.
Sure, I've wasted a bunch of res and time, but I've also wasted the rines res and time. During that combat proceeding, we retook satcom in a battle over the PG there. The PG and turrets went down.
The rines got HA and some neato tools, while a gorge snuck fusion up. Before they realised, four Onoses and two gorges rushed in, goring and healspamming. Marines beaconed, but to no avail.
The marines went wrong here in that they didnt try getting a marine over to waste, which had absolutely no defences throughout the entire game.
2.0 is about tactics and res. 1.04 was more about skill and hives. Things have changed drastically.
THEY HAVE THE SAME TEAMS!
OMGZOR, MARINES VS ALIENS STILL!!! IT SHOULD BE Ts V CTs BY NOW!!!oneoneeleven.
*cough*
I've seen gruelling games that have boiled down to contests of sheer skill, I've seen games where rines have all but lost and manage to pull it back through repeated relocates and a blitz on alien res. Yes, the game gets a bit formulaic when one team blows, but thats life, and you'll never balance that.
This is the only part of the post I agreed with. I never see THE ONE BIG BATTLE when I comm. It's just not the way I do things. Instead I like my marines to be skirmishers who roam and cause destruction. Next thing you know, we're up 8v2 on rts, then it's just a matter of taking out the hive by your choice of methods.
Let's take the chess example. When white (for example) have captured a knight, black is down by three points. It is then easier for white to capture even more pieces. It might even be that both players know the game is already over, for white has a sure way to win more and more ground during the remainder of the game. Still, if black does not give up the game can continue forty more rounds.
Natural-Selection is definately the same, this problem existed in 1.x but was shadowed by the huge imbalances. The problem exists in 2.x as well. This is however something that is more or less impossible to get rid of while keeping the game even remotely possible to enjoy.
I disagree with every thing you said.. 100%.. I have seen more games where varied attacks have won for both sides, I've seen hive shuffles (like a game last night) where the aliens put up a total of 6 hives because the marines underestimated the amount of res we had.
I've seen 3 hive onos get eventually worn down and destroyed because 2 sneaky JP'ers ran around the map destroying the alien RT's...
The game play in 2.0 is so much more varied and the outcomes are not predetermined immediately into the game, you could have the greatest starting point (as I've seen in some clan's UGL play) but have no idea what to do for a second step.. You lose all the ground you had made and lose the game.
In 1.04 it was simply get JP/HMG's and rush the hives...
In 2.0 it could be seige, it could be elec'd tf's <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> it could be a HA train.. But not all games are the same..
Basically what i'm saying is: It's stoppable if your team works together, might get messy but it can be stopped.
Edit: Here's a tactic i used today against an Onos train and 3 hives. 4 jp'ers, took out all their hives. Onos got a little cold, got sick, died. I lost my entire base to the Onos train, lost my entire team to the Onos train. Only 1 Jp'er was alive. There was a huge battle (marine base) which we lost (no HA), but oddly enough we won the war by taking out their hives.
I'm sure u can relate to a HA train. Knock out their rt's, kill a few HA, attack their base to divert HA from the hives, knock out their base rt if ur lucky. Devour HA, have comm spam meddies/ammo...their economy grinds to a halt.
People like you annoy the hell out of me.
<b>Lets get to the real issue:
<i>INTENTION: 2.0 was meant to make the game be undecided as long as possible</i>
</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your statement is flawed from the start. 2.0 was specifically meant to make the average game last less than 10 minutes. You think i'm wrong then look at the group im in "playtester"
secondly, less bold please. Its annoying and i vaguely recall some forum rule saying not to do that.
Let's take the chess example. When white (for example) have captured a knight, black is down by three points. It is then easier for white to capture even more pieces. It might even be that both players know the game is already over, for white has a sure way to win more and more ground during the remainder of the game. Still, if black does not give up the game can continue forty more rounds.
Natural-Selection is definately the same, this problem existed in 1.x but was shadowed by the huge imbalances. The problem exists in 2.x as well. This is however something that is more or less impossible to get rid of while keeping the game even remotely possible to enjoy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about.
There is no such thing as a slippery slope in chess.
At any given moment, the other side could win even just by checkmating the oppionent. Don't do expert analysis's on one of the world's oldest games and say crap like that. Chess is easily the most balanced game ever designed, and there is zero slippery slope in that game. An expert oppionent could kick your **** with half of his pieces.
Again, I wouldn't say Starcraft has a slippery slope. War3 and Civilization games have it.
viewpoint, probably best expressed by <i><b>tjosan</b>: "It's called the slippery slope. Starcraft has it, warcraft 3 has it, the civilization games has it, even CHESS (actually most obviously chess)."</i>
I would like my view, or any view similar to it, at least be part of one facet into a close look at the game. Certainly there is no such thing as a final "huge" truth to be revealed, but definitely part of the mosaic of seeing the game.
About Marines winning:
@ Madcap-magician: Yeah, the marines win usually this way, its sort of like the frog in the pot of boiling water, if you turn the heat up slowly,
the frog never leaves the pot and ends up dying in the boil.
@Zunni: What I said wasnt really about how you finish. 2.0 forces you to deal with many more variables, but regardless, at some point its just a matter of execution and half the game is just cleaning up the mess. I think on the outside, 2.0 seems so much more varied, but I always feel that the "slippery slope" is ever-present, unchanging force that exists somewhere in the half-point of the game.
@general responses: Yeah, there are certainly many games, such as the one presented earlier about a HA train vs Onos train, with one jetpacker still alive at the very end, that are ridiculously amazing in epic qualities, but by and large, you have to admit there is a half-way point in almost all normal games, the half-way point where there really is no point. Yeah, I suppose aliens could capitalize on marines mistake, or the marines could find a trick-ninja siege location, but like I said before, its still a mid-line game. Past the mid-line, oh well. Dont get me wrong though, I love playing this game, no matter what. Why would I take the time to talk about something like this unless i loved all the details of the game to begin with?
Kid-A brought out a very good explanation of pub play, which generally goes -> marine push, alien counterpush. the game is then decided on the fate of the counter-push.
Wow that was incredibly well put. I've always had that thought in my head and never expressed it in words, but yes, there is
something missing from 2.0 that was in 1.x and that was the "hellacious" battle for the second hive. When you fought a giant battle in 1.x
winning was the result of pushing your teammates, over and over and over and everyone coordinated perfectly otherwise it wouldnt work
and you literally felt like you came from hell and back.
Any more obvious things you'd like to state for the record?
TBH NS 2.01 final is much more balanced and far more playable and infintely more enjoyable than 1.0x ever was. All "In my highly venerable opinion" obviously.
Not really. 99/100 games were just the infamous JP/HMG rush which ended your hive in record time. GG
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=48693&hl=extender' target='_blank'>My game idea!!</a>
LET THE REINCARNATION BEGIN!!!
HA/HMG vs Fade is the classic alien confrontation! Bring it back
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Sadly we can't balance the players, only the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EDIT : OK, just to add a bit more, because this reply seemed too spammy....
Sometimes players just simply drag out the games, and sometimes there are people who rapidly expand to get a whole bunch of RTs going, leaving the other team crippled
Now you see where this is going, correct?? This is what you're talking about.
But now this is where it turns, the other team can either choose to destroy their RTs and cripple the marines, or sit and let the other team keep gaining their precious res to tech to HA+HMG/evolve to Onos or whatever.
Sadly not much of the pubs near me do the latter -.-
I see comebacks all the time, and more importantly, if one team grossly outskills the other team that team usually wins. It's still not at that state where the better team will win BOTH rounds, but it is at the state where at least if you out skill the oppionent in a good majority you can win both rounds, which is better than nothing.
Again, I've seen comebacks as aliens at the 2 hive level against due to onos and great alien teamwork (onos stomp... yuck), and marine comebacks against powerful alien teams (shotty rush against hive, marines manage to slaughter the alien team enough to win).
Also, with good teams, in 2.0, it's actually quite hard to tell when another player has 'got the game in the bag', or so to speak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn what servers do you play on. Whenever you post, you use the servers you play on as perfect examples of why the thread starter is wrong because the servers you play on are absolutely perfect in every way.
So really, give me some IP's cause I want to play on your "perfect servers" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> .
No seriously, give me some IP's I want to play with a bunch of vets, I might learn something.
heh, someone make a demo of that
I see comebacks all the time, and more importantly, if one team grossly outskills the other team that team usually wins. It's still not at that state where the better team will win BOTH rounds, but it is at the state where at least if you out skill the oppionent in a good majority you can win both rounds, which is better than nothing.
Again, I've seen comebacks as aliens at the 2 hive level against due to onos and great alien teamwork (onos stomp... yuck), and marine comebacks against powerful alien teams (shotty rush against hive, marines manage to slaughter the alien team enough to win).
Also, with good teams, in 2.0, it's actually quite hard to tell when another player has 'got the game in the bag', or so to speak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn what servers do you play on. Whenever you post, you use the servers you play on as perfect examples of why the thread starter is wrong because the servers you play on are absolutely perfect in every way.
So really, give me some IP's cause I want to play on your "perfect servers" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> .
No seriously, give me some IP's I want to play with a bunch of vets, I might learn something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know where Forlorn plays, but I play on TacticalGamer (see the server forum, the thread on that server should be near the top still) and I see these situations all the time.
There's a saying on TG. "If we were to try these tactics on any other server out there, we'd be decimating the other team." And this goes for both sides.
Now, not ALL games are like that... but at least half are, and that's more than I've found anywhere else...